Occupy Wall Street -- just venting

[PamNY]

I posted in another thread about being told I couldn't cycle on a street near the World Trade Center. I decided tonight to walk down and observe whether bikes were on the street, and to talk with the cops.

When I got to the corner, I was nearly mowed down by a group marching to join the Occupy Wall Street crowd. I moved off the sidewalk to avoid them, and got screamed at by cops to get back on the sidewalk.

I've lived in NYC for twenty years and have never been that frightened except on 9/11.

For those who haven't been following the story, they have been allowed to camp out in a public park for ten days. Ironically, they are not bothering "Wall Street" at all but are having a devastating effect on street vendors and the farmer's market (as well as those of us who listen to their drums all day). I've tried several times to talk to them, asking if they could leave a 10 or 20 foot buffer zone around the vendors and farmers -- their eyes glaze over.

We are starting to wonder if we have a government at all. I'm used to one-day protests and parades, and I don't complain about that because it comes with the neighborhood and the freedom to do that is a vital part of America. But ten days' camping in a public park is frightening, and I'm very worried about the precedent it sets.

[TsPoet]

We are starting to wonder if we have a government at all. I'm used to one-day protests and parades, and I don't complain about that because it comes with the neighborhood and the freedom to do that is a vital part of America. But ten days' camping in a public park is frightening, and I'm very worried about the precedent it sets.

I'd never heard of it until you mentioned it in the other thread, then I did some reading up on it. The consensus in the little news that I've read is that the lack of attention being paid to it is all due to the lack of violence or anything really happening. If your goal is for them to be ignored, that seems to be working! Whereas, according to what I've read, if the police or anyone did anything, than they'd be getting national attention.
Hopefully the lack of attention will mean they will eventually go away and not come back, neither will anyone else?

[PamNY]

Whereas, according to what I've read, if the police or anyone did anything, than they'd be getting national attention.

Yes, that's pretty much the situation as I understand it. Or it was the situation -- there were some arrests this weekend, and I saw quite a few TV trucks tonight.

Probably the crowd that almost mowed me down was technically an illegal demonstration or march, but stopping them would have caused a ruckus so it was simpler for the city to just let them go. I understand that approach -- up to a point.

[ny biker]

I read about it on Bikesnobnyc's blog. He went down there today and took some photos. He also said there was toplessness. (But he did not say who was topless...I presume he'll write about it tomorrow.)

We have our share of protests with street closures here in DC but they tend to be on weekends. I did get stuck in traffic last week thanks to a motorcade, which someone said was the Vice President.

When I first moved here I walked out of work one day in Georgetown and saw sharpshooters on the roofs looking at me. President Clinton and P.M Kohl were having dinner at a nearby restaurant. It was kinda weird, since they still let me walk through the area.

[PamNY]

A few photos of the festivities from last week, including one topless lady:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8867349@N08/sets/72157627638063991/with/6187611928/

[Trek420]

Ironically, they are not bothering "Wall Street" at all but are having a devastating effect on street vendors and the farmer's market (as well as those of us who listen to their drums all day). I've tried several times to talk to them, asking if they could leave a 10 or 20 foot buffer zone around the vendors and farmers -- their eyes glaze over.

I'm just sayin' if they spent their energy promoting shopping local, independent, stepping away from the mall and the big box store and favoring smaller local companies (like the street vendor instead of a fast food chain and farm market instead of super market ....) they'd accomplish more.

[KnottedYet]

The Koch Brothers (founders of Tea Party, Inc.) made a huge profit again last year. They can get media attention whenever they want.

Bunch of hippie-dippies angry at what "Wall Street" gets away with don't have money, and won't get attention.

Let's not forget what makes the world go 'round.

(hint: despite what the Hallmark cards say, it sure ain't "love.")

[PamNY]

Oh, they could easily get attention if they had a coherent message. Topless women and Glass-Steagall would be a powerful combination.

[ny biker]

As expected, with lots of photos:

http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2011/09/indignity-of-commuting-by-bicycle-in.html

"Speaking of our financial system, it could take days or even weeks of displaying cardboard signs to bring it to its knees..."

BTW, yes, there really is an artisanal mayonnaise shop in Brooklyn.

[PamNY]

Hooray for Bikesnob. Analog Twitter feed indeed.

I was hoping he would solve the mystery of where these people are going to the bathroom. No one seems to know.

[ny biker]

I was hoping he would solve the mystery of where these people are going to the bathroom. No one seems to know.

Uh oh...

[ny biker]

This is from Mother Jones.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/09/occupy-wall-street

Apparently it's Canada's fault. And they never actually had a plan...

[OakLeaf]

Best thing I've read about the coverage so far:

http://www.bnet.com/blog/financial-business/why-8220occupy-wall-street-8221-critics-are-more-clueless-than-the-protesters/16362

Of course they don't mention Democracy Now!'s coverage, which as usual is excellent.

[smilingcat]

Best thing I've read about the coverage so far:

http://www.bnet.com/blog/financial-business/why-8220occupy-wall-street-8221-critics-are-more-clueless-than-the-protesters/16362

Of course they don't mention Democracy Now!'s coverage, which as usual is excellent.

Good write up. And sad commentary on today's news. What would Fred Friendly's commentary be on the state of journalism today? or Walter Cronkite. The real news men.
So is the state of news better or worse off than yellow journalism of 1920's ... ?

This protest is similar to the youth protesting against Thatcher government in the '80s because of no jobs.

Oak, thank you for the link. worth my time.

[PamNY]

Best thing I've read about the coverage so far:

http://www.bnet.com/blog/financial-business/why-8220occupy-wall-street-8221-critics-are-more-clueless-than-the-protesters/16362

Of course they don't mention Democracy Now!'s coverage, which as usual is excellent.

This article misses the point completely, and makes me wonder if the author has spent time observing the group or talking to them. The Times' coverage was snarky, but it was accurate.

This group could easily have gotten publicity if that's what they want. Their mistakes as far as geography and timing are obvious -- curious that this author doesn't mention them, nor does he discuss their "leaderless" model, which is largely responsible for how the group is perceived.

I think they are discovering the limits of "leaderless." It will be interesting to see how that evolves.

[PamNY]

They are still claiming to be leaderless, but have finally appointed representatives to deal with community concerns. So far, we've gotten them to stop the "drum circle" at 10 pm.

I personally want half the park returned for normal use -- we'll see how that goes. They claim to be concerned that they are hurting the farmer's market, but I see no evidence they've done anything concrete. Today a young man was proudly holding his sign and being interviewed by a reporter -- and also blocking access to the market. I shooed them away and they complied, but I can't be there all day, and it probably wouldn't help if I could.

The park is noisy, crowded, ringed with cops and looks a garbage dump (though they are trying to be clean). I'm sure most people just decide they will buy tomatoes at the grocery store until this is all over and skip the farmer's market.

This negotiating with OWS is being done by community volunteers.

I no longer get out of the way of their little mini-marches, which I seem to have a special gift for running into (unless a cop tells me to). Over the weekend I kept going right through them on my Xootr and they did move to let me through.

[salsabike]

Pam, I appreciate getting the on-the-scene perspective. Thanks.

[jyyanks]

Did you see the ones dressed like zombies yesterday? Ridiculous.

It's really getting annoying....

[PamNY]

My two favorite recent photos.

Why do you suppose Wikileaks needs a truck? I think the gentleman with the pink hair and wonderful high heels was just visiting.

[salsabike]

Those pictures are both hilarious in totally different ways.

[NbyNW]

Does all this remind anyone else of the Airing of Grievances during Festivus?

[OakLeaf]

I think a lot of us are trying to be polite and not get involved in this thread on a site that's supposed to refrain from politics.

I wonder whether the protestors in Libya/Bahrain/Tiananmen Square had/have a coherent message (not from what I've read).

I'm sure there are many people in every nation who would just as soon go about their day in the midst of an extraordinary popular uprising. Change and personal responsibility are scary things.

[PamNY]

My comments aren't political at all. I haven't made any comment about OWS, outside of complaining about their timing and describing that I was frightened by one of their marches (we didn't know the police were allowing them to march without a permit). I simply think it's interesting to observe.

As far as change and personal responsibility, this is the residential neighborhood most affected by 9/11. We are familiar with both change and personal responsibility. Having the World Trade Center collapse directly across the street from your home is a superb example of change; in fact, offhand, I can't think of a better example.

Restoring small, human things like the farmer's market after 9/11 was a real struggle. The market has huge symbolic importance to us because of that, and we don't take it for granted. If residents stepping up and making sure the market is okay isn't personal responsibility, I'd like to know what is.

I just got a forwarded email from the farmer's market manager saying that while business is down, overall OWS is being respectful of the market -- do you think there's any chance that repeated reminders from people like me have helped with that?

As far as personal responsibility, the people negotiating with OWS are unpaid community volunteers. If speaking with OWS about issues like noise from their drum circle isn't personal responsibility, what is? They honestly didn't know there was a residential community and were somewhat responsive to our concerns. They now are distributing written guidelines to new arrivals about being respectful of people who live here. How is it not personal responsibility to effect that change?

If I were going to make political comments, they would be about the fact that the noise and disruption aren't anywhere near the neighborhoods where the rich and powerful live. There is absolutely no chance that would be tolerated. Marching across the Brooklyn Bridge does nothing but inconvenience ordinary working people. Marching on Fifth or Park Avenues would be a whole different story.

I thought it would be okay to talk about the practical side of the situation here, but obviously not, so I won't post anymore.

[NbyNW]

Pam, I for one have definitely appreciated seeing your updates. I lived in NYC many years ago, back when some of the big financial firms were still located in lower Manhattan, and while I know the neighborhood has changed, your posts are the only place where I've seen anyone talk about the impact of OWS on local businesses and the farmers' market.

As a sidenote I've been fascinated by not only the duration of this protest but the social organization of it that has been reported. It will be interesting to see if anything constructive comes out of it.

[Biciclista]

are the crowds really big? or are there a few hundred persistent people?

I appreciate your sharing actually.

[PamNY]

People apparently come and go, but the crowd is usually a couple hundred, I'd guess. Not surprisingly, it's bigger on weekends.

NbyNW they do seem very organized. It took some prodding, but once they realized they needed community relations, it got done.

It will be interesting to see how winter affects things. They aren't allowed to use tents, and at least one person has already needed an ambulance for hypothermia. Probably just unprepared for sleeping outside; it hasn't been that cold.

Local story:

http://www.downtownexpress.com/?p=3507

[jyyanks]

I wasn't being political either. Like Pam, I work in NYC and personally witnessed 9/11. It's uplifting to see things over there thrive again and I think local residents should try to protect the small businesses that are there today like the farmer's market.

I have no issue with peaceful protesting but I do think its silly that they want to be taken seriously and then they walk around in big groups wearing zombie costumes. My post was not meant to be offensive but rather to add color to Pam's commentary.

[OakLeaf]

Since we've got the other thread going, I know a lot of us have seen at least the first episode of the Prohibition documentary. The parallels are hard to ignore. Can you imagine what would happen if they called for a "Hatchetation" of the brokerages?

(PS: if 700 people got arrested for crossing a bridge, and there's still anybody left at the park, I'd say there are more than "several hundred" involved.)

[PamNY]

(PS: if 700 people got arrested for crossing a bridge, and there's still anybody left at the park, I'd say there are more than "several hundred" involved.)

"Several hundred" is the average number I'd estimate were consistently residing in the park. All of the people arrested were released -- I doubt anyone is being held without bond. They weren't arrested for crossing a bridge; the arrests were for being on the roadway where pedestrians are not allowed. As I said the crowds are bigger on weekends.

Tonight at the Community Board meeting they said they have 1500, but I don't know how accurate that is or whether they were counting day trippers.

[PamNY]

Got an email this morning telling me my photo of the Wikileaks Mobile Information Collection unit had been added to their Flickr gallery.

Turns out this truck is "artivism" and not connected with Wikileaks (which I kinda suspected).

Explanation here:

http://artoftheprank.com/2011/06/14/wikileaks-top-secret-mobile-information-unit-on-the-move/

Haven't yet heard from Penthouse about my topless lady photographs.

[salsabike]

I am so disappointed that that is not a "real" Wikileaks truck.

Has anyone figured out yet how the park denizens are going to the bathroom?

[PamNY]

Has anyone figured out yet how the park denizens are going to the bathroom?

As far as I know, they are using local fast food places. I was thinking this morning that it's too bad pay toilets are illegal in New York.

Maybe I could work around that restriction by simply charging admission to my apartment, say $2 per 5 minute visit.

[ny biker]

They're in DC today. Supposedly with a focus on the issue of jobs/lack thereof. They marched to a few places and from what I've heard, they messed up rush hour traffic. Which is guaranteed to just make people around here hate you, regardless of what you're trying to accomplish.

[Crankin]

They've been in Boston for a few days. Don't seem to be bothering anyone... camping out on the Rose Kennedy Greenway.
I'm not sure if they are accomplishing anything, no one here seems to be paying attention.

[OakLeaf]

Very good reading: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/matt-stoller-the-anti-politics-of-occupywallstreet.html

I have to say I'm mildly astounded at how many people on this forum seem to consider themselves, in Steinbeck's words, "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" instead of part of the 99%.

Now I'll put this thread on ignore. I'm disappointed that it's been allowed to continue, but apparently I'm the only one so bothered by it.

[tulip]

Oak,
Not that you will read this because you put it on ignore, but please don't assume you know what I think of this simply by the posts or non-posts on this thread. People are doing their best to get by. Some people are speaking out. Some people are just putting their heads down and forging ahead as best they can. Some people don't have anything to worry about. There is room in the world for all those people; they have value no matter what where they stand on this, or any other, issue.

Pam can speak for herself; I found her observations from the ground to be very interesting. I did not feel the need to comment on it one way or the other, though.

Personally, I spent the day with a dying friend. I will see her one more time over the weekend, and then never again since I will have to travel for the next few weeks and she won't be here when I get back. My concerns are a bit closer to home at the moment; I would even venture to say more important in my world. We all contribute in our own way; we do not have to do it your way in order to have value as a person. So what if I don't particularly give a hoot about these protests; it does not mean I don't care about the issues (not that it should matter). I just go about it in a different way than you or the protesters do, apparently.

I can't speak for anyone else on the forums, but I felt moved to respond to your post. Ignoring the thread is a good idea if it doesn't say what you want it to say. I do that all the time.

[salsabike]

Oak,
Not that you will read this because you put it on ignore, but please don't assume you know what I think of this simply by the posts or non-posts on this thread. People are doing their best to get by. Some people are speaking out. Some people are just putting their heads down and forging ahead as best they can. Some people don't have anything to worry about. There is room in the world for all those people; they have value no matter what where they stand on this, or any other, issue.

Pam can speak for herself; I found her observations from the ground to be very interesting. I did not feel the need to comment on it one way or the other, though.

Personally, I spent the day with a dying friend. I will see her one more time over the weekend, and then never again since I will have to travel for the next few weeks and she won't be here when I get back. My concerns are a bit closer to home at the moment; I would even venture to say more important in my world. We all contribute in our own way; we do not have to do it your way in order to have value as a person. So what if I don't particularly give a hoot about these protests; it does not mean I don't care about the issues (not that it should matter). I just go about it in a different way than you or the protesters do, apparently.

I can't speak for anyone else on the forums, but I felt moved to respond to your post. Ignoring the thread is a good idea if it doesn't say what you want it to say. I do that all the time.

Lovely, Tulip. Truly. Thank you. And I am sorry about your friend.

[NbyNW]

Very eloquent response, Tulip. I too am perplexed at how Oakleaf arrived at her conclusion about those who may or may not be participating in this discussion.

Sending wishes for peace and comfort for your friend, and for the precious time that you have together.

[ShubieGA]

Tulip, So sorry about your friend. Cherish your time with her.

PamNY - thanks for the info, as there will be one in Atlanta tomorrow too - may change my lunch plans.

[PamNY]

I was contemplating why I posted about this in the first place. Finally figured out the reason for my first post: this is a place I'm comfortable talking about fear in general, and on the street in particular.

My first post was about a large, fast-moving crowd that I didn't expect or know about -- and a cop ordering me to not run across the street away from them, for reasons which I understand now, but didn't then.

I certainly wasn't looking for sympathy, but I knew my experience would be understood in this group. I didn't think of my post as political at all -- in fact, my complaint was about our city government, not about the protesters.

Later, the story became that individual people in the neighborhood and (mostly) our unpaid community board volunteers are doing all of the negotiating with the protesters about small, day-to-day issues. I mentioned a bit about the human-scale things that were taken away on 9/11 because it's an interesting local detail, and I made it very clear that OWS, in general, is paying attention to our concerns. It is quite remarkable that five OWS people attended a community board meeting in the middle of yesterday's march of 15,000 people.

My story would be the same regardless of who was camped out in Zuccotti Park; if the Tea Party was over there with a drum circle, you can be assured that we would try to get them to stop at a reasonable hour. Nothing political about it.

Tulip, thank you for your eloquent post, and I am sorry about your friend.

[NbyNW]

Pam, I have not found your posts to be political. It's really great that you've shared your observations and what you've experienced of how this has impacted and interacted with the neighborhood on a day-to-day basis. As I mentioned before, I haven't heard much on that perspective from the news sources I frequent.

By and large I think this thread has avoid crossing over into what could become a political and possibly inflammatory discussion. I think most of us have a sense of where that line is, and thus avoid crossing it.

[jyyanks]

Oak,
Not that you will read this because you put it on ignore, but please don't assume you know what I think of this simply by the posts or non-posts on this thread. People are doing their best to get by. Some people are speaking out. Some people are just putting their heads down and forging ahead as best they can. Some people don't have anything to worry about. There is room in the world for all those people; they have value no matter what where they stand on this, or any other, issue.

Pam can speak for herself; I found her observations from the ground to be very interesting. I did not feel the need to comment on it one way or the other, though.

Personally, I spent the day with a dying friend. I will see her one more time over the weekend, and then never again since I will have to travel for the next few weeks and she won't be here when I get back. My concerns are a bit closer to home at the moment; I would even venture to say more important in my world. We all contribute in our own way; we do not have to do it your way in order to have value as a person. So what if I don't particularly give a hoot about these protests; it does not mean I don't care about the issues (not that it should matter). I just go about it in a different way than you or the protesters do, apparently.

I can't speak for anyone else on the forums, but I felt moved to respond to your post. Ignoring the thread is a good idea if it doesn't say what you want it to say. I do that all the time.

I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. Sending thoughts and prayers.

Your post was amazing and well written - thank you.

[PamNY]

Honest, I was going to leave this topic alone, but the Daily Show (Jon Stewart) has addressed the bathroom issue.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-6-2011/wall-street-occupied

If you aren't familiar with the Daily Show, it is irreverent, sometimes graphic humor.

And in case you think we in lower Manhattan are obsessed with potty issues, the 9/11 Memorial does not have public rest room facilities. This lack was already putting a strain on small businesses and other tourist destinations in the area.

[ny biker]

I was going to post that Daily Show link. With a warning to not ever let those people into your home, for any amount of money. How do they not see what they are doing to some really hard-working people??

Re: the 9/11 Memorial, what exactly is open to the public at this point? The fountain area? The museum? Is the lack of bathroom facilities a temporary thing while it's all still under construction?

[PamNY]

I think just the fountain part is open now, and the area where names are engraved. Museum opens next fall and will have restrooms.

They can't have outdoor public trash cans or Porta potties near the memorial because both are security hazards -- bombs could be placed in them. It's really crowded and littered and only a block away from OWS's encampment.

[PamNY]

If anyone is interested, this article from Salon (http://news.salon.com/2011/10/10/its_a_protest_its_not_woodstock/singleton/#comments) reflects what I have seen fairly well.

Like everyone else who writes about OWS, the author fails to note that this event is taking place in an established neighborhood. I was stunned that the author regards the Yom Kippur observance across the street from Zuccotti Park as a sign of "mainstream acceptance" of OWS being in the neighborhood.

They have this Yom Kippur observance every year. It has nothing to do with accepting OWS -- it has to do with Yom Kippur.

I am, of course, going to email the author about this. But I need a day or two to calm down.

[channlluv]

Pam, I appreciate your commentary, too, and completely missed whatever political angle was perceived by some. The thing that I found most disturbing, actually, was when you - I think it was you, maybe someone else - said that these protesters were stealing from the falafel vendors and farmer's market people. That really bugs me.

I thought the zombie thing was stupid, too. I am enjoying reading the signs, though, and some of the editorial cartoons that are coming out of this.

I hope that you and your neighbors can retain/regain some sense of normalcy soon.

Roxy

[Crankin]

I think Pam's comments are an interesting view from the street. I would be worried, too, with any large group of people camping out by my home.
I don't think this thread is political at all. I have my opinions, I don't think I'm a particularly uninformed person, and quite frankly, if you are going to judge me by my lack of comments, well, so be it. I know that I am a member of the 1%, or at least close to it. I've worked hard for everything I have and I am not embarrassed. If some have an issue with that, it is not my issue. I'm not a member of the Tea Party, a Republican, or even against the protesters. I know I am lucky. I've spent my whole adult life in jobs that tried to help people lift themselves out of poverty or other negative situations. I guess I hope that in the past 35 years, I've had some positive effect on the world.

[PamNY]

Roxy, as far as theft, I think that's just the inevitable result of a large crowd. There are plenty of responsible people trying to keep order.

[ny biker]

I'm getting the impression that the DC group is more organized, or at least has more specific goals.

They had a permit for their location for the weekend. Yesterday I read that the National Park Service extended it for 4 months, though they would have to share it at times with groups that already had permits to use the square on certain days. But I just read that the agreement with NPS is not finalized.

Meanwhile, they went to the Capital today and I think several of them were arrested.

[KnottedYet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdeuuzXS_sY

What bothers me is what happened to the woman standing on the sidewalk outside the locked bank, holding her bank statement and saying "I'm a customer! I'm a customer!"

You can see the protestors who tried to cancel their accounts locked inside the bank. Even if she went in with them, she obviously left when asked because she was OUTSIDE.

[NbyNW]

That's a disturbing video. Can't wrap my brain around it.

[jessmarimba]

The only thing about this thread that bothers me are the references to the non-protestors as "hard-working" - as if to imply that those who are occupying are not. Many who have the time, energy, and desire to occupy due to unemployment aren't unemployed by choice. They'd be happy to be working hard, but instead of working hard at a job they are now working hard for what they believe in.

I consider myself to be a hard worker, and I'll never be part of the 1%. It's a situation my generation has been thrown into and I'm proud that some are trying to find another way to improve things, as misguided or as disorganized as that way may be.

(to add a bit of humor, a friend and I were joking that we should organize an Occupy Vail, since protesting the exorbitant price of lift tickets is no more or less ridiculous than some of the the occupiers demands that have made national news)

[owlice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdeuuzXS_sY

What bothers me is what happened to the woman standing on the sidewalk outside the locked bank, holding her bank statement and saying "I'm a customer! I'm a customer!"

You can see the protestors who tried to cancel their accounts locked inside the bank. Even if she went in with them, she obviously left when asked because she was OUTSIDE.
If that's real, yes, that's very upsetting. It might be staged, though; notice it wasn't a police officer -- or at least, didn't appear to be -- who first grabbed her. Also, her reaction seems... strange to me. If some random guy grabbed me as she was grabbed, I would be fighting back and telling him to get his hands off me (perhaps in language that we characterize as "car words" around here :D) and yelling for the cops.

[KnottedYet]

If that's real, yes, that's very upsetting. It might be staged, though; notice it wasn't a police officer -- or at least, didn't appear to be -- who first grabbed her. Also, her reaction seems... strange to me. If some random guy grabbed me as she was grabbed, I would be fighting back and telling him to get his hands off me (perhaps in language that we characterize as "car words" around here :D) and yelling for the cops.

She was surrounded by bank security and uniformed cops and talking to security on the sidewalk. The plainclothes guy was immediately joined by the bank security and uniformed policemen as they slammed her into the wall.

Uniformed police officers don't generally join in when a random guy grabs a woman wielding a threatening bank statement wearing deadly high heels and skirt.

If she had been inside the bank, she had left when the managers asked people to leave to clear out the bank and then locked the customers trying to close their accounts inside. She was outside, on the sidewalk, offering her ID and bank statement to the security guys.

[tulip]

I'm in Rome at the moment. I heard helicopters yesterday and saw the news coverage on tv. 200 anarchists does not make for good press.

[radacrider]

Getting wild out there, hope it does not turn into violent protesters vs peaceful protesters and detracts away for the core intent.

[shootingstar]

There is Occupy Calgary ....here.

I have not read all the protesters' grievances.

However to deal with Wall Street like folks, it might be way more effective for protestors to indicate that there is a fine line that only separates the unemployed / low-income from Wall St. folks.

It is probably a better way to think of how little separates us (TE folks) from the protestors. After all, some of us have been unemployed for an appreciable chunk of time.

Right now, some of this Occupy stuff seems like mob rule.

It makes one wonder if social media has a downside from its powerful speed to communicate worldwide and to mobilize: Down side is that unlike the speed of social media for commmunicating and getting the word out to protest, is that REAL change, for Wall St...actually is demanding for some social change. Which takes a long time.

[owlice]

She was surrounded by bank security and uniformed cops and talking to security on the sidewalk. The plainclothes guy was immediately joined by the bank security and uniformed policemen as they slammed her into the wall.

How do you know the guy was security? She is first shown talking to three guys, none in uniform. One of them grabs her. She's commandeered into a corner entrance, with what looks like security guards doing some of the shepherding and some officers perhaps intervening. It's unclear what happens after that, except that she is still hollering even as it appears that she walks into what seems to be the bank, with the guy who grabbed her following and an officer looking as though he is about to cuff the guy who grabbed her.

But I might be wrong, of course. I'm from Protest Central, DC-born and bred, so yeah, I'm generally very suspicious of conveniently-shot footage from protesters. Or anyone, for that matter.

[KnottedYet]

I'm sure you're right.

The whole thing must have been faked. This kind of thing just doesn't happen in America.

BTW, she was charged with "resisting arrest." And as you pointed out earlier, she clearly was not resisting.

Thank goodness for British online newspapers, or I wouldn't have known anything about this.

[pll]

Here's a tribute to the "feminine of the protest", from the Italian newspaper La Repubblica ("Occupy Wall Street, the outrage is a woman"):

http://tv.repubblica.it/dossier/indignados-usa-occupy-wall-street/occupy-wall-street-l-indignazione-e-donna/78372?video

[owlice]

I'm sure you're right.

The whole thing must have been faked. This kind of thing just doesn't happen in America.

BTW, she was charged with "resisting arrest." And as you pointed out earlier, she clearly was not resisting.

Thank goodness for British online newspapers, or I wouldn't have known anything about this.

Knotted, why are you being so snotty? Of course things like this DO happen in the US -- I never said otherwise. What, you think I've never seen a protester arrested? Or for that matter, been a protester myself?

I raised the possibility of staging because videos ARE sometimes staged. It's good that you followed up; I was out riding, so didn't, but I'm glad you did. Thanks for that.

[KnottedYet]

Knotted, why are you being so snotty?

Because I'm a boor and a sh*thead and foully angry at how that woman was treated.

Sorry.

[owlice]

'sokay; that was not like you at all. And yeah, she was treated badly. I doubt the charge will stick; good thing she reacted the way she did rather than the way I would have (which would have involved pain for one or more).

And you are not the names you called yourself. Sheeeesh!!!!!

[PamNY]

Right now, some of this Occupy stuff seems like mob rule. .

It's definitely mob rule in NYC, albeit a fairly benign mob (at the moment anyway).

OWS agreed w/local officials to limit drumming to two hours a day -- quite a few of us are close to going mad from listening to drums all day. It was part of the deal to keep OWS in their current location.

After eight hours of drumming, I went over to complain. Couldn't find the "community liaison" they promised to have available at all times, but I was welcomed warmly by a guy at the information desk. Most of the protesters are also sick of the drums, but because it's a leaderless democracy, they can't really stop it. They were thrilled for a complaining resident to show up.

Someone found a guy from the security committee, and off we went to the drum circle. This was right after their donation of Ben and Jerry's ice cream was delivered, and the security guy continued to enjoy his ice cream all the time I was there.

After much discussion, waving of arms including the ice cream cup, and screaming, the drummers refused to stop. The security guy called out "mic check" which means he wanted to speak, but he was drowned out when fans of the drummers started chanting "We are the 99 percent." Apparently the 99 percent simply MUST drum, or at least the drum circle lovers think so. OWS security guy threw up his hands (one of which still held ice cream) and told me to talk to the cops.

I did so, cops said they couldn't help. The local official who brokered the drumming limit deal is my new favorite pen pal.

A great anecdote I heard: when the mayor visited, someone offered him a joint.

[PamNY]

This is a photo of the most committed drummer expressing his opinion of the "Good Neighbor" agreement which limits drumming to two hours a day.

He's kind of a scary guy -- actually threatened a woman who asked him to abide by the time limit. Told her he was going to "personally remove" her from the park.

Needless to say, I'm sending this photo to the city official who brokered the "Good Neighbor" deal.

[shootingstar]

I do have a strong opinion about Wall Street in general:

It is terribly true that the corporate world is treated well by the tax man.

People who have never worked closely with tax lawyers, may be surprised to know how large corporations hire tax lawyers to formulate complicated tax planning strategies to reduce their corporate tax payment to the government...and alot of it is legitimate because that's why they hire a tax lawyer(s) and accountants, to interpet the complicated tax legalese in the Internal Revenue Code (US) or the Income Tax Act (Canada).

So I might not be out there marching, but don't believe the whining of the corporate world that they are paying "too much" tax.

part of all this problem is that when proposed changes to corporate tax law are publicly introduced, very few laypeople can fight it, because you have to have detailed knowledge of ...tax law, one of the most technical areas of law (after a building or fire code).

I was a tax law librarian ....

[PamNY]

part of all this problem is that when proposed changes to corporate tax law are publicly introduced, very few laypeople can fight it, because you have to have detailed knowledge of ...tax law, one of the most technical areas of law (after a building or fire code).I was a tax law librarian ....

That's true of much legislation affecting business -- it's hard to understand, hard to get people to pay attention, hard to communicate, and hard to compete with lobbyists (not sure if lobbying is a big factor in Canada, but in the US it is).

[PamNY]

If that's real, yes, that's very upsetting. It might be staged, though; notice it wasn't a police officer -- or at least, didn't appear to be -- who first grabbed her. Also, her reaction seems... strange to me. If some random guy grabbed me as she was grabbed, I would be fighting back and telling him to get his hands off me (perhaps in language that we characterize as "car words" around here :D) and yelling for the cops.

My question is: was this woman one of the protesters, or was she simply a regular customer who refused to be intimidated by OWS?

If the latter, something needs to be done to warn people of when and where these marches are taking place. I'm fairly sure OWS is being allowed to march without permits. Normally, if a big protest is going on, we know about it and can avoid it. But this random nonsense is different -- on Saturday, I ran into them twice: once walking my dog, and once going grocery shopping. I'm really annoyed that I have to bring ID to walk the dog -- but it is prudent, and I'm doing it.

I'm sending this video to the many city officials with whom I am now in regular communication. Is this going to happen to me the next time I go to CVS?

Knot, thanks for posting this. I can use it as a starting point to object to the city allowing marches without a permit, and to argue for a notification system for local residents.

"Car words" -- I love it.

[pll]

I can use it as a starting point to object to the city allowing marches without a permit, and to argue for a notification system for local residents.


Hmm. I normally would not chime in, but it seems to me that we are on a slippery slope regarding civil rights in this country (starting with what is now the excuse of terrorism). I would no advocate for a government to be in charge of approving of marches and demonstrations, which, incidentally, might be directed at that government. It sounds totalitarian to me, anathema to freedom of expression. [However, I think that the "drum circles" are plain nonsense and a nuisance.]

[PamNY]

Hmm. I normally would not chime in, but it seems to me that we are on a slippery slope regarding civil rights in this country (starting with what is now the excuse of terrorism). I would no advocate for a government to be in charge of approving of marches and demonstrations, which, incidentally, might be directed at that government. It sounds totalitarian to me, anathema to freedom of expression. [However, I think that the "drum circles" are plain nonsense and a nuisance.]

Oh, no, it's a perfectly legitimate question for me to pose. I'm not asking for new laws -- I'm just asking about the ones that already exist. I don't know the laws in detail, and it's appropriate for city officials to explain them to me. Most demonstrations or large group gatherings require permits -- so that streets can be closed, police can be deployed to facilitate and control traffic, etc.

In a crowded city where every square inch of space is fought over, some controls are necessary. For example, I am invited to a hawk-watchers picnic in Central Park. I must be sure to RSVP because if more than 20 people come, we need a permit from the Parks Dept. We can get the permit -- the government isn't trying to stop us watching Palemale. It's just a question of managing the limited space available.

Yes, people have the right to protest. But I also have the right to walk my dog, to go shopping, to ride my bicycle over the Brooklyn Bridge -- without the fear of being trapped in a mob. We are certainly accustomed to managing marches and demonstrations where I live. However, protests normally last for one day. The difference in this case is that people have moved in. Our tiny and much beloved local park has been effectively rezoned as residential, and there is no end in sight.

It is the government's job to balance competing interests. All I'm doing is reminding them of what my interests are.

[grey]

Hmm. I normally would not chime in, but it seems to me that we are on a slippery slope regarding civil rights in this country (starting with what is now the excuse of terrorism). I would no advocate for a government to be in charge of approving of marches and demonstrations, which, incidentally, might be directed at that government. It sounds totalitarian to me, anathema to freedom of expression. [However, I think that the "drum circles" are plain nonsense and a nuisance.]

I'm with you. I think the Founding Fathers and Sons of Liberty would be appalled to see what counts as 'freedom' these days.

[KnottedYet]

I'm with you. I think the Founding Fathers and Sons of Liberty would be appalled to see what counts as 'freedom' these days.

USMC Sergeant Shamar Thomas seems to have something to say about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O2WZXM_Iec&feature=share

[Jolt]

Yes, people have the right to protest. But I also have the right to walk my dog, to go shopping, to ride my bicycle over the Brooklyn Bridge -- without the fear of being trapped in a mob. We are certainly accustomed to managing marches and demonstrations where I live. However, protests normally last for one day. The difference in this case is that people have moved in. Our tiny and much beloved local park has been effectively rezoned as residential, and there is no end in sight.


Well said. I give you credit for dealing so well with this situation...I'm not sure what I would do. It's one thing if there's a demonstration going on for one day, but it sounds like they are really intruding on the daily life of the neighborhood in this case. It also sounds like it has the potential to become (well, it probably already is) a major safety/security issue...I feel like it's only a matter of time before a riot starts down there. I don't trust big crowds like that AT ALL nor would I be able to put up with the constant noise.

[PamNY]

The legal issues are interesting. Here is a piece from New York Law Journal about occupation of the park:

http://www.newyorklawjournal.com/PubArticleNY.jsp?id=1202517769612&slreturn=1

These links give information about time, place and manner restrictions on protected speech:

http://www.answers.com/topic/time-place-and-manner-restrictions

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/timeplacemanner.htm

http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Time,_place_and_manner_restrictions

This is NYCLU's guidance on demonstrating in New York City:

http://www.nyclu.org/content/know-your-rights-demonstrating-new-york-city

[channlluv]

I had jury duty today and during the lunch break, I walked down to the major mall downtown and came across a pretty anemic Occupy San Diego demonstration on the front steps. There were about twenty-five protestors and forty police officers, complete with a lineup of a dozen or more motorcycles parked in front of the mall entrance.

As I walked up, I threw a thumbs up to one of the guys holding a sign and got a smile -- they looked like a decent group of people, men and women, mixed ages, mostly on the hippy side -- I saw one guitar, several in Rasta braids, lots of Army Surplus couture, etc. As I threw the thumbs up to the guy, I turned toward the mall entrance and came face to face with the police officers there, one of which was looking at me like I was about to start something. I smiled and said, "Wow, we have more police officers here than protestors."

He nodded and said, "As it should be." I kept walking and to his partner, I spun my finger around in the air, indicating the area, and said, "Safest corner in the whole of downtown, right here."

Honestly, the police seemed really on edge and much more tense than the protestors. I was more nervous from them than from the protestors.

Later, in another area of the mall, I heard shouting and looked down from a second floor balcony to see a woman dressed in a maxi dress with a bandana on her head and a guy -- he was the one doing the shouting -- who had taken off his shirt and had someone write a big 99% on his back in Sharpie, and his shorts were hanging down around his lower hips and his very loud underwear were hanging out - like white with some kind of big, orange decoration - and he's holding a sign over his head and he's standing up on a raised flower bed wall and he's shouting at people walking by to go shopping in the mall.

I couldn't hear what he was saying, but by the time I got down to the ground floor -- it was time to get back to court -- the mall security had him back on the sidewalk and had made him put a shirt on and he'd stopped shouting at people and I found myself thinking, yeah, there's the guy that O'Reilly and Beck are holding up as the poster child of the OWS movement.

I can only imagine what Pam and her neighbors are having to put up with in the name of Democracy,

Roxy

[PamNY]

Local news story (http://www.dnainfo.com/20111018/downtown/occupy-wall-street-negotiations-waste-of-time-downtown-residents-say) on neighborhood concerns.

"Good neighbor" policy is here (http://nycga.cc/category/news/) (scroll down).

A more fun story (http://www.dnainfo.com/20111017/downtown/occupy-wall-street-protesters-revolutionize-fashion) on clothing, written by a fashion reporter.

[ny biker]

I do not understand what drumming for hours on end has to do with anything.

[Trek420]

Bono was supposed to play. He's busy so somebody has to do it. :p :rolleyes:

[PamNY]

This should be funny.

Supposedly a Batman movie will be filmed (http://www.dnainfo.com/20111018/downtown/batman-may-join-occupy-wall-street-protest) in the neighborhood soon.

You never know with movies being filmed here -- sometimes you hardly notice them, other times it is hugely disruptive (I'm still complaining about Die Hard New York, and that's been a while).

Maybe they will hire the drummers.

[ny biker]

You never know with movies being filmed here -- sometimes you hardly notice them, other times it is hugely disruptive (I'm still complaining about Die Hard New York, and that's been a while).

Oy vey. That scene outside the subway station at 72nd and Broadway was near my apartment, and I was in a cab stuck in traffic while they were filming it. I wound up giving up on the cab and walking the last few blocks, trying to get around all the gawkers saying stupid things like "It looks like Bruce got a haircut." Like they knew him personally and saw him often enough to know when his hair changed.

When I saw the movie, I did not enjoy seeing buildings that I was familiar with being blown up. I enjoy that sort of thing even less now.

[bmccasland]

A more fun story (http://www.dnainfo.com/20111017/downtown/occupy-wall-street-protesters-revolutionize-fashion) on clothing, written by a fashion reporter.

I read that story, and despite the fact that the words are English, I couldn't understand what they were referencing. Is this what I get for not watching "What Not to Wear" for a year? :confused::rolleyes:

[ny biker]

I read that story, and despite the fact that the words are English, I couldn't understand what they were referencing. Is this what I get for not watching "What Not to Wear" for a year? :confused::rolleyes:


Stacy and Clinton do not recommend flannel or burly work boots. Ever. Ever ever ever.

[PamNY]

I wound up giving up on the cab and walking the last few blocks, trying to get around all the gawkers saying stupid things like "It looks like Bruce got a haircut." Like they knew him personally and saw him often enough to know when his hair changed.

That is such a perfect description of what happens in those situations. :D

[salsabike]

Good and interesting articles, those.

[channlluv]

Hey, Pam, is this your drummer on the Daily Show?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-october-18-2011/the-99-


:)

Roxy

[PamNY]

That looks like some of them.

I haven't seen the scary guy lately -- I think he may have been invited to leave.

[PamNY]

A little more detail on Batman's visit to my neighborhood. Might be a good time to go out of town -- but getting around in a car won't be fun.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/nyregion/dark-knight-rises-to-film-near-occupy-wall-street-site.html?ref=nyregion

[Trek420]

I agree with the aims of OWS but am a little nervous because I work here:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_19211212?source=rss_viewed

[channlluv]

I LOVE that the Occupy people have overcome the removal of generators with bikes hooked to batteries, and those ten bikes are creating double the energy of the gas-powered generators.

Nice.

[Trek420]

Nice! I took the day off for OWS Oakland. I needed the time to fax things to my credit union. I'm breaking up with my bank. Bye bye Wells Fargo mortgage, hello big savings. :)

[zoom-zoom]

We're planning to shut down our checking account with a large-ish bank and switch everything to our CU account, too.

Down with banks!

[Trek420]

I'm a long time credit union member (checking and savings) but had a major bank for the mortgage. They've refused to refinances my 1st while offering rates for much less for new owners.

My CU said "yes". It will save us a LOT.

Yesterday as I left work the nurses union was marching past. You can't see from the picture but it was a long line, several blocks long of nurses walking single file on the sidewalk and not impeding traffic in any way.

I love a good picket line chant as much as the next gal. Maybe more than the next gal. :)


I fell in with them, lent my voice and we marched to BART. Then I went on the way home. :)

[tangentgirl]

Thought I'd post this here. No matter where you stand in politicsland, this is pretty sweet:


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/11/occupy_nashvile_lovefest.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/11/occupy_nashvile_lovefest.html)

(well, i suppose if you really really really really really really didn't like one side or the other you could say it sucks. but that's a lot of reallys.)

[PamNY]

Very charming and sounds kind of Southern.

The article mentions Nashville being designated "friendliest city." I have never found Nashville as friendly as it is reputed to be (I was born there, and visited often when my parents were alive).

[ny biker]

Last night in DC they protested around the Convention Center. Three protesters were hit by a car. Police did not press charges against the driver, because witnesses said the he had a green light and and the protestors were trying to close the road.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2011/11/3-struck-by-car-at-occupy-dc-protest-police-say-68784.html

I don't think this protest was announced in advance, which would have given motorists a chance to avoid the area. The first time I heard of it was after it had already started, and I keep a close eye on traffic reports.

[PamNY]

So sad to hear about people getting hurt for any reason.

They aren't announcing the marches here. I dislike getting caught in them.

Our city council member has been wonderful about working with residents, but her staff told me there's no way to inform people about the marches that don't require permits. I hoped they could use Twitter or the city's emergency notification system to send out alerts, but they can't.

[PamNY]

Bike parking is at a premium in the neighborhood around Zuccotti Park. Here's one way to solve the problem!

[VeloVT]

Bike parking is at a premium in the neighborhood around Zuccotti Park. Here's one way to solve the problem!

That seems pretty risky.

OWS has occupied our city park here in Burlington VT, and marches down the pedestrian shopping arcade at noon every Sunday. There have actually been quite a lot of people participating. While I'm quite sympathetic to the problematic lack of regulation in the financial sector in the past 20 years, the protest (here at least) feels a lot like your garden variety WTO protest -- some people who want to save sea turtles, some people with "no blood for oil" signs, a whole lot of people chanting "you got bailed out, we got sold out" (who seemingly don't understand what would have happened otherwise)...

Anyway, someone just shot himself in the park, and it's going to turn very ugly shortly. The right blaming it on the city administration not taking a stronger stance on the "park occupation", the left arguing (rightly, in my view) that this incident could have easily happened in any of the cities with active "occupations" and the real issue is gun control/the fact that concealed weapons are legal here. In any case, it was a suicide by someone who was, from preliminary news stories, homeless, troubled, and without adequate support, and regardless of the "side" you support, it is a sad incident and unfortunate that it will certainly be highly politicized here.

The news tonight was this, the Paterno scandal, the Dover scandal - pretty depressing all around.

[KnottedYet]

"If Americans want to live the American Dream, they should go to Denmark." - Richard Wilkinson

I dare you all to learn.

I dare you to click this link: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html

I dare you to stare United Nations data in the face unflinchingly.

I dare you to recognize what is happening in the United States and (to a lesser extent) the United Kingdom.

Two dying empires, in the same boat.

Ignorance is not bliss.

[VeloVT]

That seems pretty risky.


The news tonight was this, the Paterno scandal, the Dover scandal - pretty depressing all around.

Oh, I forgot, and the fact the Rick Perry forgot the third federal agency he wanted to axe was somehow a larger news story than the fact that he proposes getting rid of the Department of Education. I apologize if this post is overly political, but have we gone to sleep at the wheel?

[zoom-zoom]

Oh, I forgot, and the fact the Rick Perry forgot the third federal agency he wanted to axe was somehow a larger news story than the fact that he proposes getting rid of the Department of Education. I apologize if this post is overly political, but have we gone to sleep at the wheel?

Many have...the rest of us are frustrated as hell as at how so many are being misled and lacking critical thinking skills. We're all going to pay (except for those at the top, who are laughing all the way to the bank).

[azfiddle]

In Tucson, the Occupy encampment was at a downtown park that is set to be the start/finish of El Tour de Tucson on Nov 19, which typically involves about 9000 cyclists plus all the friends, families, and vendors, all arranged well in advance with permits etc.

The negotiations went on for some time, but the Occupy group finally agreed to move their encampment to another park, at least for now.

l guess conflict between the occupiers and community groups and businesses that are not the object of the protest is pretty much inevitable, but in this case, I'm happy that the groups were able to come to agreement. There are a lot of community causes supported by El Tour, as well as a the benefit to many local businesses, including hotels, restaurants, bike shops etc.

[shootingstar]

I find it interesting that in Portland, OR the segments of the cycling community are actively organizing to support their Occupy ..ie. by organizing a bike swarm to protect the encampment, ....

bikeportland.org has the info.

Meanwhile last weekend I met a municipal politican locally in town when I was in the same bakery as he. He is a regular cyclist himself and big on designing/modifying communities to be more liveable which includes cycling infrastructure. He thought the cycling advocacy group's issues/desires would get all lumped in and confused with local Occupy Calgary.

Seems like there maybe differences in objectives per Occupy group across different cities.

I honestly believe that the original Occupy Wall St. is great to make issues of social justice, widening gaps of economic disparity, visible to the general public as a statement.

But fighting Wall St. and the financial sector that pays the minority CEOs, stockbrokers who get lots in their pockets, etc. ...requires sophisticated tactics long term head on to dismantle tax incentives that enrich the big corporations. All the mumble jumble covers up sophisticated, complicated corporate tax laws that on a technical point gives more avenues for corporations not to pay the govn't more tax. Ask anyone who is a corporate tax lawyer or an licensed accountant for a major corporation.

Sometimes I wish I didn't learn of certain things....after working for major international accounting firm that catered heavily to corporations worldwide.

The homeless issue is in some areas (in CAnada) caused partially by the greedy local real estate industry that is driving up the sale/value of homes and lack of co-op housing, affordable (safe, clean) rentals. Most certainly this is true for Vancouver, Calgary (more expensive now than it was only 8 months ago) and Toronto.