Sturmey Archer hub gears (possible new bike opportunity)

[hebe]

hey everyone, I've not been around much over the "summer" (such as it was here) but nursery is open again, and there is some unexpected cash available that could go on a new bike.

I ride a Specialised HardRock mountain bike and a Marin Stinson comfort hybrid, which is the bike I learned to ride on just over a year ago. Generally if I'm going anywhere hilly or off-road I ride the mountain bike, errands and shopping are done on the hybrid. I also tow my three year old in a trailer on either bike fairly often. If I did get a new bike it would replace the Marin and would be for errands, but would have to be a bike that I loved to pieces and that would ideally last for years. It would need to have a rack and/or basket, and be able to do short distances on non-tarmac roads/paths such as the occasional stretch of gravel or towpath but nothing properly muddy off-road. Rides would be 4-8miles. I'm not after speed - more convenience and a bike that I love when I look at it (which to be honest the Stinson doesn't deliver for me). I probably wouldn't use a new bike for towing as there are a couple of gradients on the nursery run that need a few more gears.

I've been loving the idea of Pashleys for some time and the whole steel-framed made in Britain history stuff, but I don't really know how hub gears compare to the derailleur gears that I learned with. The heaviest Pashleys come with 5 speed gears, the lighter Poppy has 3 speeds. Can anyone tell me what difference this makes to riding? When I'm cycling to town and not towing I never shift off the middle cog and very little if any change on the smaller ones. I think I remember reading somewhere that a 5 speed hub is the same as the 3 speed but with a couple of extra steps. I will of course take a test ride but would welcome any experience. There are a couple of non-Pashley options - a Marin Kentfield which looks very tidy and light and pretty and makes me sigh, and possibly a Globe, though these come up quite pricey compared to the made in the UK Pashleys.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, if anyone wants to look at some links they can be found below.

Pashley Sovereign Princess (http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/princess-sovereign.html)- 5 gears - heavy
Pashley Brittania (http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/britannia.html)- 5 gears
Pashley Poppy (http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/poppy-pastel-blue.html)- 3 gears
Pashley Penny (http://www.pashley.co.uk/news/2011/07/hello-penny/)- 5 gears but single size frame that may be too big.
Globe, I like this one (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/globe/GlobeProduct.jsp?scid=1105&sid=12Work) but I don't think it's been launched in the UK yet.
Marin Kentfield (http://www.marin.co.uk/2011/bikepage.php?ModNo=11KFL) - more gears and lighter, but aluminium compared to the Pashley steel.

Or I could just put a really nice Brooks saddle on my Stinson. hmmmm. Thanks for reading this essay, thoughts appreciated thank you!

[Roadtrip]

Not really sure about the internal hub gears like the sturmey-archer that come on the Pashleys. The details I found at this site talk about Ratios, but I'm not sure how that compares to your Marin or Spec mountain bike with standard cassette in the back. It's hard to know the top end of the gear ratio, ie how much mechanical assistance your legs are getting, but the 3 and 5 speed bike here are mostly for the flats and I'd think you would struggle up any sort of incline or pulling.

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/products/hubs/cid/4

Globe, made by Specialized I believe, and the local shop here sells them and I have to tell you I was NOT impressed with the build quality. Friend who I had my little bike incident with a few weeks ago owns a Globe and when we crashed at relatively slow speed (10-12mph) his wheel was totally ruined. Asked the wrench about the wheel and he explained that the stock wheel does not have spokes with crossed laced pattern and makes a wheel weaker, but easier to make. My bike was unscathed and functioned great. Of course my bike cost about 2x what that Globe did too!

Shannon

[Roadtrip]

Heres what I mean in the range...

3 speed
• Overall Range - 160%
• Gear 1 - 62.5% (-)37.5%
• Gear 2 - 75% (-)25% (Gear 1 + 20%)
• Gear 3 - 100% Direct Drive (Gear 2 + 33%)

Perhaps someone who I good at these things can give us a primer on gears and ratios.

Shannon

[hebe]

Thanks Shannon!

That's interesting about Globe. They really don't price well here after importing and the exchange rate so I don't think it would be much of a contender. Part of me still thinks that I really don't need a new bike, particularly as the Marin is looking hugely improved since I added a bottle cage and swapped the pump and seat post.

I don't really understand much about gears, so will read up about them this weekend.

[Bike Writer]

hey everyone, I've not been around much over the "summer" (such as it was here) but nursery is open again, and there is some unexpected cash available that could go on a new bike.

I ride a Specialised HardRock mountain bike and a Marin Stinson comfort hybrid, which is the bike I learned to ride on just over a year ago. Generally if I'm going anywhere hilly or off-road I ride the mountain bike, errands and shopping are done on the hybrid. I also tow my three year old in a trailer on either bike fairly often. If I did get a new bike it would replace the Marin and would be for errands, but would have to be a bike that I loved to pieces and that would ideally last for years. It would need to have a rack and/or basket, and be able to do short distances on non-tarmac roads/paths such as the occasional stretch of gravel or towpath but nothing properly muddy off-road. Rides would be 4-8miles. I'm not after speed - more convenience and a bike that I love when I look at it (which to be honest the Stinson doesn't deliver for me). I probably wouldn't use a new bike for towing as there are a couple of gradients on the nursery run that need a few more gears.

I've been loving the idea of Pashleys for some time and the whole steel-framed made in Britain history stuff, but I don't really know how hub gears compare to the derailleur gears that I learned with. The heaviest Pashleys come with 5 speed gears, the lighter Poppy has 3 speeds. Can anyone tell me what difference this makes to riding? When I'm cycling to town and not towing I never shift off the middle cog and very little if any change on the smaller ones. I think I remember reading somewhere that a 5 speed hub is the same as the 3 speed but with a couple of extra steps. I will of course take a test ride but would welcome any experience. There are a couple of non-Pashley options - a Marin Kentfield which looks very tidy and light and pretty and makes me sigh, and possibly a Globe, though these come up quite pricey compared to the made in the UK Pashleys.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, if anyone wants to look at some links they can be found below.

Pashley Sovereign Princess (http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/princess-sovereign.html)- 5 gears - heavy
Pashley Brittania (http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/britannia.html)- 5 gears
Pashley Poppy (http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/poppy-pastel-blue.html)- 3 gears
Pashley Penny (http://www.pashley.co.uk/news/2011/07/hello-penny/)- 5 gears but single size frame that may be too big.
Globe, I like this one (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/globe/GlobeProduct.jsp?scid=1105&sid=12Work) but I don't think it's been launched in the UK yet.
Marin Kentfield (http://www.marin.co.uk/2011/bikepage.php?ModNo=11KFL) - more gears and lighter, but aluminium compared to the Pashley steel.

Or I could just put a really nice Brooks saddle on my Stinson. hmmmm. Thanks for reading this essay, thoughts appreciated thank you!

Hebe, just saw this thread now and also your other one...two observations/comments:

About the internal hub. I am far from expert but I believe that an internal hub is meant to keep the elements out and I would believe that the output in power and riding feel would be equivilant to riding a 3 or 5 speed with a rear derailleur. On anything but flat roads a 3 or 5 speed will be more difficult to pedal than a bike with multiple front chain rings and enough in the rear too.

My other bike that I really seldom ride has 7 cogs in the back and one up front. I rode my little heart out on that bike and did awesome things with it but I was doomed to walk it up some hills until I got more gears. It just didn't have enough oomph. Okay, I probably didn't have as much oomph last year as this year. :o

Oh but the lovely eye appeal of the Pashley's. Undoubtedly one of the most graceful and elegant bikes to lay eyes on.

I am getting the feeling that you like the curves and swan neck look for your "ride about town" bike? And that you like a more upright, breezy, light ride for errands and picking up odds and ends.

Only you can pick your ultimate bike but you are on the right track with identifying what you want it for and what you want it to do and how you want it to look while you're doing it. So, ride 'em and try them out and with the experience you now have, you will discern which is best for you. Shopping is half the fun of it! ;)

[hebe]

Thanks for the reply Deb.

I went off to look at the Kentfield today - the LBS was closed as they don't open on Wednesdays. Which reminded me of all the things that irritate me about that LBS. I looked in the other bike store in town, nothing exciting there, and this afternoon I went over to the LBS that my mountain bike came from, and also the store that carries Pashleys. Pashleys are definitely out, the store only carries the biggest heaviest most expensive one at the moment. Globes are out too, I want more gears.

The other LBS was very helpful, and I'm going to hold off on the Kentfield and wait for some more 2012 stock to come in at the helpful shop. I just don't fancy going through the whole "can you get this for me to try in the next size down even though I know that the 2012 stock is coming in and no I don't like the colour of the new one" with a LBS that is generally less than enthusiastic about doing business with me.

Anyway, the Specialised Vita looks like a real possibility, even though I'm not wild about the colour (white). Giant may have something suitable too, though I don't think they have launched the new stock in the UK yet.

Deb, I do love the Pashleys, but it's not sensible to buy a bike that can't do hills. I have a secret yen to go a bit faster too, and I don't need major off-road functionality. There is always the option of just banking the cash and waiting for something to turn up.

Thanks again for the replies, much appreciated!

[NbyNW]

I don't have any experience with the Sturmey Archer, but I do have an SRAM DualDrive on my Dahon that has three settings. On top of that I've got a 9-ring rear cassette, so 27 possible gear settings.

A couple advantages to the internal hub gear, in addition to what has already been mentioned:

1. You can shift while a stand-still. Great for city riding, as I often find myself stopped at the bottom of a hill.

2. I don't have to worry about cross-chaining with my rear cassette (biggest front + littlest back or vice-versa). Not a concern on the Pashleys, I still thought it was worth mentioning.


When you do a test-ride, I also recommend that you ask the salesperson or mechanic to show you the ins-and-outs of how the hub gear works, especially if you are one who likes to do her own basic maintenance and repairs. The SRAM DualDrive has a "clickbox" which connects the hub to the gearshift cables, and it needs to come off if I want to remove the rear wheel to change an inner tube. It's a bit fiddly to get the clickbox back on, and that's the only time the internal hub gear annoys me. The rest of the time I don't give it a second thought and it works like a dream. I don't know if the Sturmey Archer connects the same way, but I would imagine that any reputable dealer should be able to answer your questions about how it works and what you need to know.

Good luck, those Pashleys are beautiful!

[Bike Writer]

I don't have any experience with the Sturmey Archer, but I do have an SRAM DualDrive on my Dahon that has three settings. On top of that I've got a 9-ring rear cassette, so 27 possible gear settings.

A couple advantages to the internal hub gear, in addition to what has already been mentioned:

1. You can shift while a stand-still. Great for city riding, as I often find myself stopped at the bottom of a hill.

2. I don't have to worry about cross-chaining with my rear cassette (biggest front + littlest back or vice-versa). Not a concern on the Pashleys, I still thought it was worth mentioning.


When you do a test-ride, I also recommend that you ask the salesperson or mechanic to show you the ins-and-outs of how the hub gear works, especially if you are one who likes to do her own basic maintenance and repairs. The SRAM DualDrive has a "clickbox" which connects the hub to the gearshift cables, and it needs to come off if I want to remove the rear wheel to change an inner tube. It's a bit fiddly to get the clickbox back on, and that's the only time the internal hub gear annoys me. The rest of the time I don't give it a second thought and it works like a dream. I don't know if the Sturmey Archer connects the same way, but I would imagine that any reputable dealer should be able to answer your questions about how it works and what you need to know.

Good luck, those Pashleys are beautiful!

So what you are saying is that you can get a bike with a rear internal hub and multiple chainrings up front? I didn't know that. Hmmmm.

[NbyNW]

So what you are saying is that you can get a bike with a rear internal hub and multiple chainrings up front? I didn't know that. Hmmmm.

Not quite. The multiple chainrings are still mounted on the rear wheel. There is a single chainring up front.

Here (http://www.dahon.com/bikes/2011/vector-x27h) is the spec sheet for the current year equivalent of my bike. If you click on the picture of the bike, it will enlarge. You'll see the single ring up front, multiple in back.

Look for a tiny, horizontal black rectangle right where the skewer is sitting in the dropouts, and there is a little barrel adjuster to the right of it. That's the clickbox I mentioned. It's about the size of a matchbox. Basically this is what you get with the SRAM DualDrive instead of a front derailleur. Oh, I just thought of another thing about it, it interferes with panniers on these small-wheeled bikes, but it's only on one side. Again, probably not a factor on a Pashley.

Like I said, I don't know if Sturmey Archer hubs use a clickbox or some other mechanism to get your cables to talk to your hub, but however they do, I know if I were to buy one, I'd ask the salesperson to provide me with at least a rudimentary understanding of how they operate.

Oh, wait. Here's a video that shows you how to adjust a Sturmey Archer hub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GDKgKDfk7o&NR=1). This is pretty much the Sturmey Archer equivalent of what I was talking about with the fiddly SRAM clickbox.

[Bike Writer]

NbyNW,

Ah, I see. One picture is worth a thousands words. Thanks for the clarification. The one and only time I recall looking up close at a bike that used an internal hub it did not have gears in the back and only one up front, however that bike was an 8 speed bike.

http://fisherbikes.com/bike/model/simple-city-8-stepthru

I saw it while on vacation last year just outside of Holland Michigan at a bike shop. It was a beautiful looking bike with a lot of really neat practicle features. Pretty cruiser.

[NbyNW]

This thread is making me really want a cruiser! Would be so fun for toodling around the neighborhood.

(I have not been feeling worthy of my fast bikes this summer)

[laura*]

... I do have an SRAM DualDrive on my Dahon that has three settings. ...

1. You can shift while a stand-still. Great for city riding, as I often find myself stopped at the bottom of a hill.

Actually, with the DualDrive, it may be good to shift the hub only when stopped. Or certainly while not pedaling. Google DualDrive failures in trikes for more info.


Not quite. The multiple chainrings are still mounted on the rear wheel. There is a single chainring up front.

You could actually also have multiple chainrings in front. With 3 chainrings, a 9 speed cassette, and the three DualDrive settings, that would be 3*9*3 = 81 gears!

[hebe]

wow, thank you! Lots to read there.

Sadly, I don't think I'll be getting a Pashley. They only come with 3 or 5 gears, and I don't want to limit my riding to flat only. But I'm not ruling one out for my 50th or for when the mortgage is paid off, just not now.

I'm feeling a lot more positive today. I woke up thinking about a great dream when I was looking at Vitas or Giant Escapes and then realised that it wasn't a dream. There is significant progress being made in my town to improve cycling infrastructure, and I think a lighter bike that can run errands but also hold its own on lanes will suit me.