ponderings of a lone female

[badger]

My mother is thinking of selling her place, and has enlisted me to look at some of the open houses near my place. I've gone into quite a few open houses, and I find that since I am a female and alone (and probably not dressed "rich" enough) that I most often am ignored by the realtor. Even when I want to speak to them to clarify things or get the fact sheets, it's like I have to go and wave my hand in front of them to be noticed.

The funniest was when I noticed an open house sign while running an errand on my bike. I went in with my bike helmet and pannier bag over my shoulder, and the realtor literally took one look at me and turned away.

I got the same thing when I went car shopping on my own. One dealer (Nissan) was SO bad; there were sales people sitting around a coffee table just talking to each other. I literally went up to them and told them "what do I have to do to get some help?" and walked out. Just because I'm alone, female, and am not dressed like I'm overflowing with money they don't take me seriously. Which sucks for them because they lost a sale.

Has anybody else noticed similar things, or am I just being overly sensitive?

[GLC1968]

It definitely happens. I used to get very frustrated with it and would purposely only frequent stores/dealers that didn't treat me that way. And it shouldn't matter how you are dressed!

I would have flipped a lid at a realtor who turned away from me because I was wearing bike clothes. Seriously.

I had one occasion where I had a watch that needed fixing. I went into a jewelry store with a male friend and the sales dude kept speaking to my friend. He finally said to the guy "it's her watch, would you quit talking to me about it?!". I didn't let them do the work and I never set foot in that store again.

[TsPoet]

I could have written your post.
I once took a bus 60 miles from Santa Fe to Albuquerque to buy a car. I was 18, had just inherited about $5k and wanted to buy my first car. I walked into the car lot in Abq, a salesman came up to me almost immediately. I bought the car that I'd already researched and was planning on buying. I drove it back to SF, right into the dealership, demanded to see the sales manager and showed him the car.
He very nicely asked me what was wrong with it and I told him nothing, it was wonderful, and after being ignored at his dealership, I bought it at another one and walked out.

I bought my current house through the Realtor that was showing the house across the street. The one running the open house for my current house ignored me, even though I was the only one in it at the time. The busy Realtor at the open house across the street was very helpful. I made sure he (not the she in the correct house) got a commission.

I drive a MINI now, for a long time I was a Toyota driver. The Toyota dealership here had several salesmen that were very willing to help me - pick out a color. I asked about all-wheel vs front wheel drive and they (more than one!) came back with "what color were you looking for". I asked about 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder engines and gas mileage and the response was "what color are you looking for?" I kid you not - two different trips, 3 different salesmen - the exact same response to any of my questions - what color do you want?!
I hoped they were incompetent. But, I asked a male friend to go with me on a third trip and they all of a sudden knew what drive train and engine options were available on the then-new version of the Rav4. Not incompetent, just stupid.
I went directly to the MINI dealership (a 3 hr drive away) and bought a MINI. I love my MINI.

[Pax]

Money talks; when this happens to me (and I'll bet it happens to every one of us) I make sure to either visit of write a letter to the person that lost my business and explain how their treatment of me relates to a monetary loss for them. Hopefully they'll learn one of these days.

[GLC1968]

I drive a MINI now, for a long time I was a Toyota driver. The Toyota dealership here had several salesmen that were very willing to help me - pick out a color. I asked about all-wheel vs front wheel drive and they (more than one!) came back with "what color were you looking for". I asked about 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder engines and gas mileage and the response was "what color are you looking for?" I kid you not - two different trips, 3 different salesmen - the exact same response to any of my questions - what color do you want?!
I hoped they were incompetent. But, I asked a male friend to go with me on a third trip and they all of a sudden knew what drive train and engine options were available on the then-new version of the Rav4. Not incompetent, just stupid.
I went directly to the MINI dealership (a 3 hr drive away) and bought a MINI. I love my MINI.

I had a similar experience at a Saturn dealership back in the 90's. I had just totaled my VW and had the insurance money to buy a new car. I went to Saturn because I thought I would like their 'no haggle' policy. I asked to drive the bigger engine sports car they had (sports car being a relative term). The two salesmen I was working with (why two??), both tried to tell me that I didn't need the extra hp and that I'd be perfectly happy in the smaller engine version. "It still looks just as cool!" "Here, we have a pretty red one right here" . No joke! I told him I wanted more performance than that and they kept trying to talk me out of it. When I finally told him what VW I had totaled (Corrado G60), they agreed that I'd never be happy in the smaller engine car. Duh! I hated the car anyway because not only was it ugly, but it drove like crap.

I ended up buying a Jeep and had an excellent experience at that dealer. Same thing with the two MINI's I bought. In both cases, they spoke to ME and not to my husband even though he was with me for those purchases.

[skhill]

It's happened to me too. I've found a mechanic for my car who I trust, but if I ever have to go looking for a new one, I'll bring my brother along. It makes a difference.

A tale from the distant past: back in high school, every junior had to meet with a guidance counselor to talk about what would come after graduation. I almost always dressed very scruffy in those days, grunge about 5 years before it became popular. So I walked into her office wearing ratty jeans and flannel, and she was treating me like dirt. Then she actually opened my file, saw that I was in the running to be valedictorian, and her attitude completely changed...

[Sylvia]

This is so true!!

I work in software engineering and most of us come to work in jeans and a shirt. If you aren't dealing with customers, the computer companies typically are fine with that. Personally, I prefer to wear comfy clothes rather than a business suit all day. But its true, if I were to go shopping for a car, I'm sure they would presume pretty quickly what I could afford. I had that happen the last time I went car shopping. I took my business elsewhere.

[shootingstar]

Wow badger, such lousy customer service.

I wonder if you went to new/proposed home development sales office, if you would get the same treatment.

Early this year I did go home hunting and ..did in the end, bought. I was treated well. This was in the winter and late fall. (Yea, really I had to walk around...because place had to be walkable to transit, services, etc.)

I met both female and male realtors at different open houses by myself. And then later same folks, with my partner....simply because I did want his opinion ...in case he noticed some basic structural details that I would miss.

I guess I showed up in a variety of outdoor wear. But I was solo in the autumn when I cycled to the sales office in my cycling jacket, ordinary long tights, etc.

I was treated well.

These are developments in the downtown core. Not in the 'burbs.

Come to think of it, dearie was with me on subsequent visits to same male realtor. I was dealing with actually a *****y aggressive female boss of his...who relented NOT to raise the advertised sales price. (They had a strategy to raise price next week...)

Just to explain how dearie behaved, while I could barely keep up with this fast-talking, aggressive loud realtor manager: he soft pedalled his questions and semi-joked his way through but didn't insult her nor him. (or me)

Did it help that dearie was merely there in the same room as I? Most likely.

So be assertive, persistent and knowledgeable, but fake that relaxed attitude if you can, no matter how angry you feel.

I can't get too upset: I bought a new place at a slightly lower price, on a foreclosed building.

[grey]

Everyone's car dealership experiences reminded me of when we were trying to decide between a celica and a tC. I was asking about performance, looking for a sportier car, and the salesman kept showing me sedans and saying how this was a "nice, safe car." Did I say I wanted safe? I have no kids.
Another time, hubby and I were test driving - I really prefer manual transmissions. A few blocks into my test ride, the salesman looked at hubby and said "she's a really good driver." He sounded surprised!

[ZenBiker]

Some years ago I went shopping for a new pick up truck. I live in a mountainous area, do a lot of driving on rough roads, and like to camp and run rivers hence need to haul gear. My first choice was a Toyota. Went to the dealer, told him which model I wanted, and was told I didn't need that truck. He wanted to show me something smaller, not 4WD. I insisted. He told me to look on level 3 of the garage, pointed me to the elevator. Did not even go along. I went and looked in the windows of a few Toyota trucks, which is all I could without a salesman being with me. I debated going back and asking for a different salesman but was irritated enough not to want to deal with that company at all. So I walked across the street (literally) and bought my second choice truck from the Nissan dealer there, who couldn't have been nicer.

Loved the Nissan. My only regret is not asking to speak to the Toyota guy's supervisor and showing him my shiny new Nissan on the way home.

[smilingcat]

I think it happens to all of us. Took a male friend to go car shopping and the sales guy keeps talking to my friend. Friend is nice enough to politely tell the salesman that he isn't the one buying and that I was the one buying and he should talk to me.

I walked out on the bozo.

Another time, I threatened the general manager that I would write to their Japanese manufacturer in Japanese and the rotten service I got from his dealership. That got his attention really fast!!

The places where I didn't have any problem was when I bought my Lotus. Walked in, they asked whether I had an appointment. Said "No, but I'm interested in buying one." I think it had to do with my Hutzpa in getting their attention. Same thing when I walked into an Audi dealer and told the sales guy that I was bummed that A8 didn't have a station wagon style. I settled on A6 quattro station wagon. Again I think it had to do with my Hutzpa! Go into regular dealer and bad service except when I drove up in Lotus or in Audi. Then it was a foot race amongst the sales people.

I've had less trouble in high end store then in average store.
Tiffany's in NYC never any customer no service problem, just lots of tourists.
Godiva before they popped open every where and the shop in NYC had a doorman. Never any customer no service problem...

It's matter of whether they can sniff money on you. If they do, they are all over you. If they don't smell money on you, they will ignore you. It's not so much as how we are dressed but how we say things, our body language. I'll admit, I'm not good looking, I'm not thin, nothing to write home about. But when I do want to buy significant items, I make a point of or rather looking like I have money. Its matter of confidence and you WILL SERVE ME attitude.

The problem for most of us is that we are not direct in asking our question. When a sales person ask us what we want, we normally respond with "May I have such and such" If you want service from the sales person, respond with "I would like to have such and such". Polite way of saying I want such and such. It's more of a command.

Next time you talk to a real estate agent and they want to brush you off say something like. "Just riding by and your house interests me. I want information of number of bedrooms, bathrooms, square footage... I'm looking for a house for my mother..."

They may be put off a bit but if they had any smarts, their attitude will change quickly.

Be assertive!

[badger]

I eventually bought a second hand Honda from a used car dealership, but what I really liked about that experience was that the salesman looked and talked to me from the get-go even though I had my boyfriend there with me. He understood that it was going to be my purchase and for him to make a sale he had to talk to me. And when I signed the sale document, I did thank him because I've had some brutal experiences before that.

I went into a fine dining restaurant yesterday to pick up a gift certificate for my friend's wedding. This experience was actually what made me start this thread. I was wearing jeans and a hoody, but not scruffy. I was on my bike so I had my helmet and pannier. I walked in, and was given the "once over" by the hostess who asked what I wanted ("surely she's not going to eat here" is what she must have been thinking). They had me wait a good 10 minutes before they could conjure up the certificate, and all the while had me wait at the bar with the tender who was none too happy having some poor-looking cyclist. I wouldn't be surprised if they wiped the seat after I left. I'm regretting now getting a gift certificate for my friend to go there.

[GLC1968]

On the flip side - looking like you have money doesn't mean that you do or that you are honest.

When I worked for Gap Inc., I was filling in at one of the downtown Boston stores in an upscale mall. This woman came in with lots of shopping bags from other stores in the mall (yes, we always check this), dressed in a gorgeous silk suit in a super bright color. It screamed 'look at me, I'm wealthy and fashionable". She shopped for awhile, bought one item (I forget what it was), and then left.

Turns out, she'd robbed us blind. About two hours later we got a call from mall security and she'd been caught in another store with tons of our product (all still with security tags on).

Appearances are misleading in so many ways!

[badger]

I know. and I wonder how many businesses lose out because they'll give bad or no service to those who don't "look the type". I'm very reluctant to go back to that restaurant, though it was a place my boyfriend and I went a few times.

I did write a complaint letter to the Nissan dealership who didn't even acknowledge me, but there was no response. I do have a pretty healthy disrespect for that dealership that if anyone's looking for a car I tell them of my experience. If they had responded and made even a poor attempt at apologizing, then it would have changed my view, but they have lost a customer in me forever, as well as who knows how many I tell to not go there.

[withm]

When I bought my house, the first real estate agent I was talking to drove me around to see a couple houses, none of which met the criteria I had given him as to size, price, or neighborhood. Then he essentially blew me off.

In the meantime I started working with another agent who showed me several properties that met the criteria. I made an offer, went through a couple counter-offers, and got my house.

The day before I went to settlement, the 1st agent called me to say a property had just come on the market in the preferred neighborhood. I took great pleasure in telling him "that's nice, but I'm settling on my new house tomorrow, in that same neighborhood." Boy was he surprised! He could not believe that I was working with a different agent?!?!?! Maybe he learned something, but I doubt it.

[Irulan]

When I bought my house, the first real estate agent I was talking drove me around to see a couple houses, none of which met the criteria I had given him as to size, price, or neighborhood. Then he essentially blew me off.

In the meantime I started working with another agent who showed me several properties that met the criteria. I made an offer, went through a couple counter-offers, and got my house.

The day before I went to settlement, the 1st agent called me to say a property had just come on the market in the preferred neighborhood. I took great pleasure in telling him "that's nice, but I'm settling on my new house tomorrow, in that same neighborhood." Boy was he surprised! He could not believe that I was working with a different agent?!?!?! Maybe he learned something, but I doubt it.


Did you tell the guy why you didn't work with him? Real estate is pretty over weighted,and it benefits people who ultimately care to know where they could improve. Then again maybe he didn't care.

We owe it to providers of poor service to politely explain why we won't be giving someone our business, to give them the chance to improve. More easily said than done, I know.

[smilingcat]

Badger,

Next time you have to write a letter, write it to the car manufacturer rather than a dealer. As a courtesy, send a copy to the dealer. Identify the dealer, the reason for the letter writing. You will get a response. All dealerships have to answer to the car manufacturer and last thing a car manufacturer wants is a negative public image. Brand image takes a long time to develop and can be ruined overnight. So the manufacturers are very sensitive.

GLC,

See because the woman was impeccably dressed, no one at the store kept an eye out on her. Had she been not so well dressed, you or someone else may have kept an eye out on her and you wouldn't have been robbed blind. The ones with real money tend not to be over dressed nor will they be screaming "I've got money look". It has lot to do with attitude.

I surely wouldn't say Ms. Rodham Clinton screams of money nor would I say the same for the new IMF chief, IMF Managing Director Christine Legarde. They are well dressed but they don't scream "I've got money look". Nor Ms. Condoleeza Rice, Madeline Albright... What they do scream is I've got power and you will do what I ask of you!

I have on one occasion been followed by a sales clerk at a small resort town. She got on my nerves so I asked one of the other clerk that I wanted to speak to the owner or the manager of the store. I pointedly told the woman that I was appalled by the lack of judgement by her employee... She got my point and some religion as some would say.

[badger]

smilingcat: yeah, in retrospect I should have, and perhaps I still will. It does burn me still...

this isn't a lone female thing, but a female thing. I was reminded of this when I was telling my co-worker about my experience yesterday.

A few months ago, I had expressed interest in acting as a driver. You drive a cube van to all the firehalls picking up and dropping things off. At first they seemed keen, but then they said I needed to take a driving assessment. Nobody else needed to do this, but whatever. The assessor was impressed and told my manager that I was one of the best drivers he's tested.

I still haven't driven the truck... because the guy who does it right now says I can't lift things. How does he know that?? If I tried and I couldn't, then I can concede, but I hate being written off even without trying to see if I can do it.

[GLC1968]

GLC,

See because the woman was impeccably dressed, no one at the store kept an eye out on her. Had she been not so well dressed, you or someone else may have kept an eye out on her and you wouldn't have been robbed blind. The ones with real money tend not to be over dressed nor will they be screaming "I've got money look". It has lot to do with attitude.


Of course! That's exactly WHY she dressed the way she did. She was not even remotely over-dressed for that particular mall. She blended in perfectly and the only reason I happened to notice her prior to the call from security was because I thought her suit was a gorgeous color. My point was just that 'you can't judge a book by it's cover'. No matter if the cover is 'male' 'female' 'black' 'white' 'fancy' 'sloppy'...it's all basically the same principle.

[Crankin]

Well, I have always dressed nicely (not "richly") when I go to buy something. You just get treated better. I don't get dressed up, but I think it makes a statement and helps me feel assertive.
You can talk all you want about how this poor treatment is judgmental, but I don't think it's the "dress" part. I think it's the woman part. My DH and I have a routine we do when buying a car, where we fake argue, he defers to me, and we threaten to leave. But last time, I test drove and bought my car alone. I went to a Volvo dealer and the guy could have cared less and threw me a set of keys and said to drive it. I could have probably stolen the car. Then I went to a dealer that sold Mercedes and BMWs. They had separate salespeople. The Mercedes saleswoman was a beech and I disliked the car, too. The BMW saleswoman was a little nicer, but I liked the car. I was treated OK, even though I was buying the cheapest model + AWD which upped the price a bit. The dealership split up and now it's just BMW. I must say, the service is great and very customer oriented, even though I'm on the "red team," i.e. the people with the normal priced cars, as opposed to the 100K cars. They listen and treat you nicely there. I also had excellent service at Acton Toyota when I had my Forerunner.
The only time I got treated weirdly because of being in bike clothes was when I went into a boutique in my own town, all sweaty from a 95 degree trip into town (4 miles). But, it was the customers in there, who were whispering about me! The salespeople were great.

[Zippinalong]

My partner did some shopping after going on a job interview. She said it was amazing how much better she was treated wearing a suit. Sales people paid more attention to her and she was getting unsolicited offers for help. What you wear definitely makes a difference. Not saying it's right, but it is what is it.

[marni]

it also occurs to me not matter how well I am dressed, if I am out running errands withmy deaf and blind 91 year old resident FIL. He doesn't exist, or if he does they talk to him like he's mentally retarded, and me, I'm just the care attendant who probably doesn't even have a GED. I become invisible. It irritates me, and drives dad crazy and he won't put up with it, so we leave.

When we really don't have any other options, I become very quiet and very firm.
Sarcasm does no good because it mostly goes over their heads or vocabulary skills, so I work hard on staying neutral, extremely polite and limiting my sentances to 3 or 4 words "like he needs a bathroom scale. It must weigh in increments of 1 pound." It needs to cost under $30 dollars. Do you have that?

If they say no I ask are you sure? Have you looked? May I speak to your manager.

If they have looked and sincerely tried, I thank them politely, ask them for one other place that might have the item we are looking for, and then walk away.

Can't remember who said it but someone once said " the only person who can take away your self respect is you yourself.

marni

[maillotpois]

Can't remember who said it but someone once said " the only person who can take away your self respect is you yourself.

marni

Eleanor Roosevelt. Not exactly, but same sentiment.

[macski]

Many years ago I had the opposite happen. A longtime male friend who wanted to buy a bed asked me to go with him to help him decide (basically as ballast so he could work out how much partner disturbance there would be). The salesman kept talking to me and ignored him. I guess he assumed we were a couple and in that industry the woman has more influence about the decision.

But when I bought my house on my own I had many frustrating experiences and one fantastic one. On several occasions male real estate agents tried to sell me houses on their books that did not even closely match the requirements I had outlined.

On the other hand I dealt with a fabulous female real estate agent who listened carefully, took me to a lot of houses one afternoon with the caveat that she didn't think any of them was the one but to sharpen her understanding about what I liked and more importantly didn't like. A couple of weeks later she phoned me about a house that had come on the market that afternoon that she thought was ideal, I looked at it first thing next morning and put an offer in straight away. She got it completely right.

[goldfinch]

This used to happen to me a lot when I was younger. A small, not terribly attractive woman does not seem to inspire customer service. I was ignored a lot and it pissed me off. My ego was too big to be ignored!

Then after many years I came to be the president of a business that had about 75 employees and I participated in many community activities, serving on boards and generally becoming known in the community. I also learned to project more of a "presence." I was rarely ignored.

It is a bit mysterious. Now I am retired and am in places where people don't have a clue who I am. I am still a small, now gray haired, not very attractive woman. But people still seem to pay attention to me and I most often get good customer service. Maybe it is marching in, immediately engaging people, and speaking with confidence. So, even guys at bike shops don't ignore me even though I don't look the least bit like a biker.

I am not saying women are doing anything wrong when they are ignored, but maybe it is possible to turn some of it around. Unfortunately, it seems to be a bit about dominance. :)