time to get out of the gene pool!

[marni]

dear joggers,

Not only were all six of you dressed entirely in dark colors, but you were running in the 5:00am pitch darkness,on a road with no street lights, in the right hand lane against traffic, with not a white sock, reflective clothing, or surface or flashing light among any of you.

If there was ever anyone who was ineligible for the gene pool it would be you six.

from the driver who swerved to the left lane to avoid you and ended up across the lane and almost in a ditch!
marni

[jessmarimba]

I used to run with a girl who ALWAYS dressed like that. Black sweatshirt & tights in the winter, at twilight. Black hat. Dark hair. And she ran pretty far into the road so she could stay on the flatter areas, too. ARGH. I would run with a headlamp and a bunch of blinkies to compensate, but since we were both group leaders I couldn't really kick her out.

[zoom-zoom]

I'm with you on everything except for the "against traffic" gripe. You do realize that that's where runners/pedestrians are supposed to be, right? I actually get really POd at runners on the wrong side of the road, just as I do cyclists riding into traffic.

And one thing that drives me nuts about running clothing manufacturers is the dearth of reflective trim and abundance of dark colors in clothing--at least the warm stuff. Way too much black. But when it's dark even high-viz stuff is of no use. Some light is required for the human eye to see color. Everything may as well be black after sunset and before sunrise.

They definitely should have had some LED headlamps, though.

[Koronin]

Can I add the guy we saw on a bike tonight in all dark clothes (not even bike clothes) just dark clothes, no lights, no reflectors, no bright anything and he was wearing sunglasses. This was at dusk.

[badger]

I think they should be nominated for the Darwin Awards!

I often shake my head at those cyclists who wear dark clothes, no lights, and no helmets. OR, those who wear a helmet, but don't bother buckling the straps - why bother wearing one at all??

[OakLeaf]

You do realize that that's where runners/pedestrians are supposed to be, right? I actually get really POd at runners on the wrong side of the road, just as I do cyclists riding into traffic.

+1

Y'know, a couple of years ago I got called out for using the term "cager" here, and even though I don't necessarily agree that it's offensive, I've been good.

There is no call for calling people "joggers." Especially not on this board, where many of us are runners, duathletes or triathletes.

Maybe they were jogging. And if they were, maybe they were serious athletes on a recovery day, or on an interval between intense repeats.

I totally agree with most of the OP, but easy on the derogatory language OK?

[marni]

+1

Y'know, a couple of years ago I got called out for using the term "cager" here, and even though I don't necessarily agree that it's offensive, I've been good.

There is no call for calling people "joggers." Especially not on this board, where many of us are runners, duathletes or triathletes.

Maybe they were jogging. And if they were, maybe they were serious athletes on a recovery day, or on an interval between intense repeats.

I totally agree with most of the OP, but easy on the derogatory language OK?

I apologize, I was under the impression that if there was a sidewalk, which I did not mention in the original post, that runners, joggers, tri atheletes, dualtheletes whatever you chose to call them, were obliged to use the sidewalk. I was under the impression that unless it was an organized event with traffic blocked and police present, that wheeled vehicles belong on the road and two footed machines don't. My bad.

As for the term joggers, I apologize, I use it as a generic term with nothing deroatory meant.

I was actually really just berating the lack of common sense involved in what they were wearing while running where they running.

marni

[zoom-zoom]

I apologize, I was under the impression that if there was a sidewalk, which I did not mention in the original post, that runners, joggers, tri atheletes, dualtheletes whatever you chose to call them, were obliged to use the sidewalk. I was under the impression that unless it was an organized event with traffic blocked and police present, that wheeled vehicles belong on the road and two footed machines don't. My bad.

As a runner I often loathe running on the sidewalk--especially when it's dark, since that's where all of the sticks, branches, and ruts exist...some of the same reasons we don't like riding on sidewalks. And concrete sidewalks are really friggin' hard compared to asphalt. Non-runners don't get that, but it's really noticeable.

Runners are no more obligated to use the sideWALK than we are when on our bikes. Around here the few available sidewalks are often overrun with oblivious adults and kids on bikes, inline skaters, scooters, and other runners with their music turned-up too loud to be aware of me coming up behind.

[Blueberry]

I had no idea that "jogger" was considered offensive.

[Bike Writer]

I had no idea that "jogger" was considered offensive.

Nor did I. I wonder when that happened and why?

Now I'm wondering what is a "cager" and why is that offensive?

I must not be hip to this stuff. That's an old word.

[PamNY]

I wish more cyclists/runners/scooterers/walkers/barhoppers were adequately lighted.

I didn't know that jogging was a derisive term either. What should one say?

Here's what Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cager) says about "cager."

[Eden]

Runners are no more obligated to use the sideWALK than we are when on our bikes.

Actually that is probably dependent on where you are.... here in Washington at least it is actually illegal to walk (run or otherwise ambulate) down the street if there is a sidewalk available......

RCW 46.61.250
Pedestrians on roadways.
(1) Where sidewalks are provided it is unlawful for any pedestrian to walk or otherwise move along and upon an adjacent roadway. Where sidewalks are provided but wheelchair access is not available, disabled persons who require such access may walk or otherwise move along and upon an adjacent roadway until they reach an access point in the sidewalk.

(2) Where sidewalks are not provided any pedestrian walking or otherwise moving along and upon a highway shall, when practicable, walk or move only on the left side of the roadway or its shoulder facing traffic which may approach from the opposite direction and upon meeting an oncoming vehicle shall move clear of the roadway.

[OakLeaf]

There's a lot of local variation on whether pedestrians are allowed in roadways or not when there's a sidewalk. And even more variation in practice and enforcement.

Twenty years or so ago, Columbus was notorious. Among the more publicized cases, an elderly person who liked to sweep the street in front of their house got several jaywalking tickets.

Running in the road may be safer as a general rule (fewer irregularities and softer surface), but obviously they ought to be visible to traffic, and to get on the freakin' sidewalk if there's an oncoming car and no room for it to pass them safely in the road. I'm certainly not trying to say those people were being smart.



But I will say ... while runners and cyclists DEFINITELY have a responsibility to be visible and predictable, and you're definitely justified in your annoyance with them, what if it had been a deer, a dog, or a trash can in the road?

[Bike Writer]

I wish more cyclists/runners/scooterers/walkers/barhoppers were adequately lighted.

I didn't know that jogging was a derisive term either. What should one say?

Here's what Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cager) says about "cager."

Thanks for the link, now I know what it means.

[badger]

I, too, am wondering why the term "jogging" is derogatory? is it because those who train don't want a lax, recreational implication of "jogging"?

[PamNY]

I Googled "jogging derogatory" and found some funny stuff. Two samples here; there's a lot more, mostly predictable discussion board nonsense. The gist seems to be that running is faster, hence the hurt feelings, I suppose. Also, jogging might be a dated term.

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/024355.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogging

[tulip]

I had no idea that "jogging" is a derogatory term. Just to be on the safe side, I'll pick up on Eden's post and use "ambulate." Or "ambulate quickly."

[PamNY]

I had no idea that "jogging" is a derogatory term. Just to be on the safe side, I'll pick up on Eden's post and use "ambulate." Or "ambulate quickly."

I love it. I'm going to do that too.

[zoom-zoom]

I had no idea that "jogging" is a derogatory term. Just to be on the safe side, I'll pick up on Eden's post and use "ambulate." Or "ambulate quickly."

Heh...when I think ambulate I think zombies...not that there's anything wrong with that. I like to think I'd do OK during a zombie apocalypse. I may not be fast, but I have endurance on-foot and a cyclocross bike. :D

[SadieKate]

Oh for goodness sake. This is like the argument about "what is a REAL cyclist?"

Does Usain Bolt think Karl Meltzer is a jogger?

[salsabike]

Oh for goodness sake. This is like the argument about "what is a REAL cyclist?"



Exactly what I was thinking. It also goes on in the fine craft world: is fine craft art? What's craft? What's art? Whenever I see those articles in the magazines I get, my eyes glaze over and I start looking at all the pictures...

[SadieKate]

What is porn? :p

[OakLeaf]

Oh for goodness sake. This is like the argument about "what is a REAL cyclist?"

Does Usain Bolt think Karl Melter is a jogger?

The verb has somewhat to do with subjective speed. Usain Bolt could jog alongside me while I'm in an all-out sprint (heck, he could probably walk beside me :rolleyes:). That wouldn't mean I would be jogging.

The noun is just plain derogatory. It implies the person doesn't belong on the road. Which was pretty much the point of the OP...

I mean, seriously, I am about as insulated from advertising as an American can be, yet I was saturated with that "We Are Not Joggers" ad campaign. It was everywhere. Did you all miss it????


Anyway, this is exactly why I prefaced my request with the reminder that I'd been called out for using the word "cager."

[Eden]

Regional thing?? I've never heard of jog/jogger being an insult either.....

[Owlie]

I certainly missed the memo that "jogger" was derogatory. But then, I don't run/jog/ambulate quickly unless I'm being chased.

[Bike Writer]

[QUOTE=OakLeaf;592100]

I mean, seriously, I am about as insulated from advertising as an American can be, yet I was saturated with that "We Are Not Joggers" ad campaign. It was everywhere. Did you all miss it????
QUOTE]

She raises her hand and admits - I missed it! But I have also been accused of living under a rock now and again for years at a time, what can I say, I just get out of touch? :o

[zoom-zoom]

The verb has somewhat to do with subjective speed. Usain Bolt could jog alongside me while I'm in an all-out sprint (heck, he could probably walk beside me :rolleyes:). That wouldn't mean I would be jogging.

The noun is just plain derogatory. It implies the person doesn't belong on the road. Which was pretty much the point of the OP...

"Jogger" reminds me of the venomous way non-cyclists refer to "bikers" who they believe don't belong on the road. It's interesting the way pure cyclists and pure runners can (perhaps unknowingly) hold such a double-standard when it comes to the other. As someone who engages in both activities I see it from both "sides" and it makes me rather uncomfortable.

[SadieKate]

Oakleaf, I wasn't calling you out at all. I just find the whole jogger/runner discussion as funny as the "real" cyclist discussion, and craft/art, and blogger/writer. And, yes, I jog/shuffle/run, but I don't do it with a giant sign telling people I also cycle so don't they dare call me [fill in the blank].

I think the OP made it very clear that she didn't know that anyone perambulating by any term was allowed to be in the road and did not use it in a derogatory manner, just as it seems the majority of us do not see it as a derogatory term.

I think this splitting of hairs is why so many women don't see themselves as athletes. It's all in the cultural verbiage and pressure to have 0% body fat, or pinch less than an inch, rather than just getting your butt off the sofa and DOING.

[PamNY]

The noun is just plain derogatory. It implies the person doesn't belong on the road. Which was pretty much the point of the OP...

I mean, seriously, I am about as insulated from advertising as an American can be, yet I was saturated with that "We Are Not Joggers" ad campaign. It was everywhere. Did you all miss it????

I don't think the OP would have been any happier about hard-to-see "runners" in the road.

"Jogger" is just a word. It doesn't imply anything about where the activity should take place, whether you call it running, jogging or ambulating (which I am now eager to work into a sentence).

I totally missed that ad campaign. What was it for and what media?

[SadieKate]

Back from asking The Google to tell me about "We are not joggers." Apparently it was a Pearl Izumi ad campaign from 2007 or 8, and it looks like it failed pretty miserably because it was divisive and intimidating. It did absolutely nothing to motivate those who needed the most motivation to get off the sofa.

[channlluv]

Hello. My name is Roxy, and I'm a jogger. At least, on a good day, I can work a jogging interval into my walking 5k. And okay, I'm on my treadmill, never on the street.

Something Katie said hit me. I don't really consider myself an athlete. I can swim a mile, ride twenty, and walk 3.1, but I'm not an athlete. I'm 80 lbs overweight and I don't eat like an athlete. I don't look like an athlete. I don't sound like an athlete. I don't dress like an athlete. I don't think like an athlete. I introduced my athletic friends to triathlon, but I don't consider myself an athlete. The closest thing I do to being an athlete is hanging out here and talking with you all. Here, I'm a try-athlete. But I promise never to jog in the middle of the street at predawn wearing all black. That's just not smart by anyone's standards.

Roxy

eta: And I never saw that ad, either.

[PamNY]

Here's an example of responses to the Pearl Izumi ad campaign. No idea how representative it is:

http://www.codegeekstail.com/2007/05/pearl-izumi-responds.html

But my favorite is from an interview with Alex Bogusky of the ad agency that did the campaign:

"Which gives a better read on the culture you're trying to reach, The New York Times or the Onion?

The Onion is just stunning sometimes. You can think something is perfectly normal and they can point out just how absurd it is. We did a running campaign for a company called Pearl Izumi. It was all about how runners are wilder, and "we're not joggers." One of the headlines from an ad was, "Have you ever noticed that it's always runners who find dead bodies?" A week later, someone sent me this Onion headline about runners being upset that they're always the ones finding dead bodies."

http://www.fastcompany.com/articles/2007/10/interview-bogusky.html?page=0%2C1

[VeganBikeChick]

I think the vast majority of us wouldn't deem "jogging" as derogatory or offensive.

[tulip]

I mean, seriously, I am about as insulated from advertising as an American can be, yet I was saturated with that "We Are Not Joggers" ad campaign. It was everywhere. Did you all miss it????

I musta missed it. No TV for years now. Maybe that's why.

[marni]

There's a lot of local variation on whether pedestrians, are allowed in roadways or not when there's a sidewalk. And even more variation in practice and enforcement.

Running in the road may be safer as a general rule (fewer irregularities and softer surface), but obviously they ought to be visible to traffic, and to get on the freakin' sidewalk if there's an oncoming car and no room for it to pass them safely in the road. I'm certainly not trying to say those people were being smart.

But I will say ... while runners and cyclists DEFINITELY have a responsibility to be visible and predictable, and you're definitely justified in your annoyance with them, what if it had been a deer, a dog, or a trash can in the road?


In Texas I believe, although I haven't checked it really recently, that the law states that pedestrians people of foot ,no matter how they are ambulating or what speed the ambulations are occurring at, are not allowed in the roadway unless in a designated crossing or if there is no sidewalk available. I will check.

Had it been a deer, a dog, or a trash can, pedestrian, cat, biker whatever, I would have done my best to slow down, swerve to avoid it which is what I did with the people moving in a brisk fashion, down the roadway towards me, with nary a scrap of reflective clothing or a light to be seen, and why I was a bit miffed at them since there was a perfectly serviceable sidewalk and they gave me a scare and I almost ended up in an accident type situation through no fault of my own.

I didn't want to start a big legal and name calling debate. I was just questioning the common sense and survival instincts of that particular group of people in that particular time and place.

I bow my head in apology to anyone I accidentally offended or legally confused.

marni

[tangentgirl]

What is porn? :p

Right?

***

I'm going to start a magazine called Joggers' World. First off, I get to be on the cover, with an ice pack on one knee, trying to roll the shin splints out of my other leg.

There will be articles like, "Finding the Best Rest Spots in Your Neighborhood," "Slow Down! Running's for Suckers!" and "Jogging Nutrition: Marlboro, Winston or American Spirit?"

Amby Burfoot will send in derisive letters to the editor every month, until around 2052, when he turns 125 and will have to start jogging instead of running.

The back page will be a dedicated section for people of note called "I'm a Jogger. Sometimes." The copy editors will rail against this redundancy, but it will stick.

***
If that doesn't work, I could always try to answer that pesky porn question.

[salsabike]

Right?

***

I'm going to start a magazine called Joggers' World. First off, I get to be on the cover, with an ice pack on one knee, trying to roll the shin splints out of my other leg.

There will be articles like, "Finding the Best Rest Spots in Your Neighborhood," "Slow Down! Running's for Suckers!" and "Jogging Nutrition: Marlboro, Winston or American Spirit?"

Amby Burfoot will send in derisive letters to the editor every month, until around 2052, when he turns 125 and will have to start jogging instead of running.

The back page will be a dedicated section for people of note called "I'm a Jogger. Sometimes." The copy editors will rail against this redundancy, but it will stick.

***
If that doesn't work, I could always try to answer that pesky porn question.

<snort>

[jessmarimba]

I know we're very upfront here about bikes only being where they're legally allowed to be (roads) but regardless of the law, I pretty much run in the street (unless I'm in the rare area that has asphalt sidewalks/paths). Concrete just plain hurts. My back says no. My knees say no. The bottoms of my feet say no. The historic red rock sidewalks in some parts of Denver hurt even worse.

This may be why I've become much more of a trail runner since moving here - not too many places where running in the street is safe.

[OakLeaf]

I'm not an athlete.

Yes, you are.

You train.

It's an important part of your life.

You hang out on this board, partly for the companionship of course, but also partly to learn more about your chosen sports (which is what initially brought most if not all of us here).

You are an athlete.

Don't let other people's perceptions of your body type tell you you're not.




PS [said in my deepest most masculine bearded-lady voice]: What does an athlete sound like? Those Xtranormal videos about Ironman and bike racing? :D



PPS @ tangentgirl: LMAO :D

[Tri Girl]

Right?

***

I'm going to start a magazine called Joggers' World. First off, I get to be on the cover, with an ice pack on one knee, trying to roll the shin splints out of my other leg.

There will be articles like, "Finding the Best Rest Spots in Your Neighborhood," "Slow Down! Running's for Suckers!" and "Jogging Nutrition: Marlboro, Winston or American Spirit?"

Amby Burfoot will send in derisive letters to the editor every month, until around 2052, when he turns 125 and will have to start jogging instead of running.

The back page will be a dedicated section for people of note called "I'm a Jogger. Sometimes." The copy editors will rail against this redundancy, but it will stick.

***
If that doesn't work, I could always try to answer that pesky porn question.

HA! I'd buy that!!! :)

[zoom-zoom]

Yes, you are.

You train.

It's an important part of your life.

You hang out on this board, partly for the companionship of course, but also partly to learn more about your chosen sports (which is what initially brought most if not all of us here).

You are an athlete.

Don't let other people's perceptions of your body type tell you you're not.


I had a realization a couple of years ago while training for a marathon. I was putting in ~10.5 hours of running/week and covering about 55 miles in a week. A fast guy I know was putting in the same amount of training time and covering 90.

Even though he was fast and covering more ground we were still putting in the same training, time-wise (I actually think it was a bit of a lightbulb moment when he realized our weekly workout time was actually the same).

[PamNY]

I'm going to start a magazine called Joggers' World. First off, I get to be on the cover, with an ice pack on one knee, trying to roll the shin splints out of my other leg.

Brilliant. I will subscribe.

[SadieKate]

Tangent - where do I subscribe? :D

[badger]

Hello. My name is Roxy, and I'm a jogger. At least, on a good day, I can work a jogging interval into my walking 5k. And okay, I'm on my treadmill, never on the street.

Something Katie said hit me. I don't really consider myself an athlete. I can swim a mile, ride twenty, and walk 3.1, but I'm not an athlete. I'm 80 lbs overweight and I don't eat like an athlete. I don't look like an athlete. I don't sound like an athlete. I don't dress like an athlete. I don't think like an athlete. I introduced my athletic friends to triathlon, but I don't consider myself an athlete. The closest thing I do to being an athlete is hanging out here and talking with you all. Here, I'm a try-athlete. But I promise never to jog in the middle of the street at predawn wearing all black. That's just not smart by anyone's standards.

Roxy

eta: And I never saw that ad, either.


this is one of the most eloquent posts I've seen. And I agree with you, I don't see myself as an athlete, either (and I love the "try-athlete").

It's a shame there seems to be castes of within the world of athleticism. I'd imagine that *gasp* jogging is still much better than lazing about on the couch doing nothing.

Can't we all just celebrate the fact, regardless what you call it, that as long as you're moving your body and enjoying the activity it doesn't matter how "pure" you are as an "athlete"?

[nscrbug]

Add me to the camp of those not realizing that "jogger" was a derogatory term. Heck, I refer to myself as a jogger all the time...mainly because at my snail's pace of nearly 11 min/mile, I certainly can't call what I do "running". I work up a good sweat and I'm usually pretty exhausted after my 3-4 mile "jogs", so I guess it beats sitting on the couch with a 1/2 gallon of Edy's in my lap. :D

[OakLeaf]

Well maybe I should just start saying cager again. It certainly has fewer syllables than "automobile driver." :rolleyes: If mutual respect doesn't matter here.



FTR, I've never heard runners differentiate THEMSELVES from "joggers." IME it's exclusively a term used by people who ARE sitting on the couch with their tub of Edy's sneering at sweaty people in Lycra and posting vicious comments about cyclists AND "joggers" in the newspapers. Hence their perception that running is completely unimportant to those who are doing it.

[Veronica]

I use cager. I am a cager. :eek: I choose to drive the 1.6 miles to work rather walk or ride my bike. I carry too much crap back and forth to make walking really viable. Once upon a time I commuted on my bike, but it's not a workout and sucked up too much valuable training time.

I do prefer the term runner to jogger, mostly because running sounds faster. :p

Veronica