Women-friendly engineering program

[Melalvai]

Last year I asked for college recommendations for my daughter who wanted to go into politics. But, not surprisingly, she's changed her mind. She's interested in math, engineering, or computer science. And she wants to go into disaster relief. I sort of want to recommend the state college (Missouri University of Science & Tech) that has a good engineering program to her-- but I've heard it does a terrible job of recruiting and retaining women. As do certain prestigious schools, like MIT.

Anyone know of a university that has a good math, engineering or comp sci program AND has a good reputation for recruiting & retaining women into the program? Some women (like me) thrive on adversity while others (like my daughter) can put up with it if they have to but would prefer not to have the distraction.

[OakLeaf]

I don't have any suggestions, but I became aware of the Society of Women Engineers (http://societyofwomenengineers.swe.org/) many, many years ago when I worked for a female aerospace engineer - back when female engineers were even more of a rarity than they are now. That might be a place to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCRRe72mwwY&feature=related

[bmccasland]

Can't make recommendations, but sounds like a good Civil Engineering program is what will fit for your daughter. Disasters are caused by various reasons - fires, floods, earthquakes, bombs, so the particlar engineering diciplines can change too.

As to universities - some will be better for advanced degrees (come back after you have your Bachelor's) - as I recall that's what my brother was told when he was looking at MIT.

One thing you'll want to ask when you are checking university engineering programs - what's the success rate for your graduates on getting their P.E. (professional engineer certification)? The higher success rate on getting their P.E. will speak a lot on the type of education the students are receiving.

[OakLeaf]

... a quick google shows that my alma mater, The Ohio State University, has a high proportion of women deans and department chairs in the College of Engineering. I only ever knew a few engineering students there and they were all male, but they seemed happy with the education they were getting.

[indysteel]

I don't have any personal experience, but you might check out Purdue's Women in Engineering Program: https://engineering.purdue.edu/WIEP

(I gotta plug my home state's renowned engineering school!)

[PamNY]

My information is decades out of date, but one of the worst experiences of my working life was in a company composed largely of engineers that was trying to be "friendly" to women. I'm not an engineer, but my work involved dealing exclusively with engineers, so is relevant.

It was a nightmare because one was expected to conform to this company's idea of what women should be like. It was like going back to the 1950s. At one point I actually begged them to tell me what I was supposed to pretend.

I have an acquaintance who teaches at a major university, and what I hear from her suggests that what I experienced could still be a problem for some women.

[KnottedYet]

I've got a relative who just retired from civil engineering. She was one of the first women (and often the only woman) in a lot of the projects she did.

She went to Michigan Tech for her undergrad, and then to Oklahoma for graduate work.

I'm sure things have changed a lot in the decades since she went to school, but she never said anything negative about her undergrad and grad education.

Sometimes her work environment could be a problem with the male engineers and male construction crews, but she never took any BS. And it helped that she was taller than most of the men!

[owlice]

You might ask over on the College Confidential forums. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/

I'd start with the Parents forum there, but also look at the Engineering major forum. Good luck to her, wherever she goes and whatever she majors in!

[zoom-zoom]

You might ask over on the College Confidential forums. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/

I'd start with the Parents forum there, but also look at the Engineering major forum. Good luck to her, wherever she goes and whatever she majors in!

I think a friend of mine is a moderator on the Parents' forum. She has long raved about CC and it really helped her help her son through choosing a school and his struggles with severe depression issues the first year. It seems like a great place to get some very specific recommendations from parents of students.

[Skierchickie]

I went to Michigan Tech (Michigan Technological University) in the late 1980s. Work there now, but in a non-academic department. Definitely an engineering school. I don't know what the ratio is these days (back then I was one of 1 or 2 women in some of my upper-level Mechanical Engineering classes). I think maybe its 20 - 25% college-wide now? That's just a guess. Engineering just doesn't attract women, so recruiting and retaining is difficult, if girls aren't headed down that path to begin with. It's a small state school - around 6500-7000 students - and very rural. The school about doubles the population of Houghton, and Hancock (across the canal) is about the same or slightly smaller. I loved it - I couldn't have handled Purdue or U of M. Too big. I was a farm kid.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the recruiting and retention of women. I think wherever she goes those are basically male-dominated fields. If it's what she wants, she'll do fine. She'll stay if she's serious about her studies, and remains interested in it. 25 years ago, I never felt like I didn't belong, or like I wasn't accepted. Maybe some schools are different, but I doubt if things have gotten worse over time.

I think the fault lies in generations of our society acting as if women just aren't capable of understanding science & engineering, and not expecting much of them in math & science growing up. By the time girls are ready for college, the die has been cast.

I guess what I'm saying is that she should find a school that has a good reputation in the field she is interested in, that has a size and environment (and distance from home) that appeals to her. She'll be fine! She doesn't need to "thrive on adversity", because there isn't necessarily any adversity involved. She's going into a field where she will always be outnumbered by men, so she may as well get used to it and be okay with it.

[Grits]

My son just attended a camp in biological engineering at NC State. That particular engineering major there has a high percentage of female students. Don't know about the rest.

[Sylvia]

I'm a Software engineer working in California . There are definitely more men in this industry than women. If you work in the development side (engineers who write the code for the product) it would not be unusual to work in a group that is 80 percent male. However, the QA side (the engineers who test the products) can often have a larger number of women.

As was previously recommended, I'd suggest getting in contact with the Society of Women engineers. Maybe even see if some of the schools she is interested in have a local section.

http://societyofwomenengineers.swe.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=232&Itemid=329

If she really isn't sure what she wants to do yet, perhaps she can take a few classes as part of her general ed requirements and see how well she enjoys it.

[shootingstar]

The closest fit for disaster stuff, I assume for building design for safety would be...fire protection engineering.

There are less than 10 programs in North America that specialize in this area...but that is based on my knowledge over 20 yrs. ago. This area of engineering covers structural, mechanical, electrical but with a fire safety building design focus. Usually the engineer stumbles into it when already they are in 1 of the other engineering areas.

Best programs have a Master's focus because after all the engineer in Canada must become licensed as a professional engineer and then later they can get the SFPE designation ....

Check web site for Society of Fire Protection Engineers.

I worked for a bunch of them for a provincial regulatory body on fire code enforcement and review. (I was responsible for a fire protection engineering library...of which less than 40 llibraries exist world-wide, but that was ages no. And no full-text books on this stuff is not free, not available on the open Internet. It never will be.)

[westtexas]

One of the best engineering schools, IMHO, is the Colorado School of Mines. It's where my brother went many years ago and if your daughter decides to pursue graduate studies, other universities seriously recruit these students. Most state schools will also do a fine job - my alma mater, Texas A&M, for example is one of them.

You should also look on the flip side and have your daughter learn what it is like to be a woman in a female dominated field. As a veterinarian I went to school with 130 others, about 15 of them were male. Not as fun as it sounds and I think a good mix between the two genders is better. At my workplace, it's all women and sometimes I wish they could just stop gossiping for 10 seconds and get their work done.

Either way, if it's something she's really interested in, she should pursue her interests and not worry about the gender gap. After all, we all have to work, might as well like getting up most mornings and going there!

[Reesha]

Union College has a fantastic engineering program and there were plenty of women there. I think the liberal arts college environment creates a more appealing environment for female engineers as there are simply more women on campus to begin with. I have a number of female friends who graduated with engineering degrees from there (I graduated from there with a Geology degree). About 11% of all students are engineering majors, 8% of which are mechanical engineers.

Back when I was there they were very generous with their scholariship and aid packages. I'm not sure what it's like post-economic meltdown, but you should check it out :)

[Melalvai]

Thanks for the great suggestions and resources! This is exactly what I was hoping for.

A friend of mine in a CS program told me about going to a competition in another city with her CS club. As they were making plans, she realized that the faculty mentor had only booked one hotel room for the entire club. She asked "Where am I supposed to sleep?" and he looked startled. It hadn't dawned on him that he'd need a 2nd room because he now had a female in his program. (That was actually the least of her problems on that trip, as the faculty adviser didn't go with them, there was drinking, one guy harassed her, and her boyfriend--long since ex now-- was unsympathetic.)

That's a minor example, but that sort of thing adds up and feels very unwelcoming. When I was in the National Guard, for the first few years it was either just me or me and one or two other females. At our 2-week annual trainings, we had the most difficult time finding out anything, like when we were supposed to be where, which uniform, how to get supper. The guys just routinely forgot about us. My dad was the first sergeant, and I was not shy about complaining, so eventually they got a system in place, assigning a female to be present at all the staff meetings (even though she wasn't technically a squad leader), coming down hard on the squad leaders for being responsible for getting the info to ALL of their squad, and more women joined so it was harder to forget about us.

It's all little stuff, and it seems petty to complain about, but it adds up to create an unwelcoming environment. My daughter hates complaining so she puts up with stuff and then avoids going to whatever class or event that has the problem. I know she needs to learn a different way to cope, and I'm sure there will be other petty problems, but I don't want this sort of thing to be what drives her out of engineering or math.

Once she's in the field, and it's still male-dominated, maybe I'm naive, but I think these sorts of things go away at that point. Probably to be replaced by other bigger problems. But by then she's invested several years and gained assertiveness. Or maybe not and she'll resent it forever, who can tell. :D

[Owlie]

My alma mater, Case Western Reserve (no, it's not a military school--it just has a stupid name), has some solid engineering programs, though its real strength is biomedical. The ratio of men to women is about 3:2, and probably even more skewed in the engineering school, though the breakdown changes by program. (Chemical and biomedical engineering seem to be more even than, say, mechanical or computer science.) There are certainly women in all of them, though. There are also plenty of campus organizations for women in STEM fields.

It's private, but has in the past been pretty generous with scholarships and financial aid.

[indysteel]

The guys just routinely forgot about us. My dad was the first sergeant, and I was not shy about complaining, so eventually they got a system in place, assigning a female to be present at all the staff meetings (even though she wasn't technically a squad leader), coming down hard on the squad leaders for being responsible for getting the info to ALL of their squad, and more women joined so it was harder to forget about us.

It's all little stuff, and it seems petty to complain about, but it adds up to create an unwelcoming environment.

This is what I experienced when I first went into private practice as a lawyer. Law school, itself, was diverse in terms of gender. In fact, I think there were more women than men. And my first job out, as a law clerk to state appellate court, was much the same way. From there, I went to a law firm that, at the time, had about 70 attorneys. For a variety of reasons, most of the young female attorneys that worked there had recently left, and I was the lone female associate for a period of time. There were a handful of female partners, but believe it or not, they weren't that much more supportive than the average male partner.

I felt very alone there. Some of my fellow associates were nice enough, but a frat house atmosphere prevailed. At one point, I caught wind of a summer party that a partner was throwing at his lake house to which I had not been invited. It happened to be the partner whose office was next to mine--the one who never remembered my name. One of the other associates called him out on it and, to my face, the partner explained that he thought I'd feel awkward as the only woman. Well, I likely would have, but thanks for making me feel even worse. This was 1999, so we aren't talking the dark ages of gender equality. I left soon thereafter. I think the firm has improved since this, at least I hope so.

I can tell you this. The mere fact that I had a lot invested in my career at that point did not make the environment any easier. I went into the firm really naively, as I'd otherwise never felt particularly discriminated against as a woman. So, in some ways, it might be better if your daughter faces some of these challenges while still in school. Hopefully, it'll help her develop some constructive ways to deal with it or, perhaps, make her carefully evaluate whether it's something she really wants to do.

[divingbiker]

Many, many years ago I graduated in ChemE from Washington University in St. Louis, not too far from you. Even back then, there were quite a few women in the engineering program, so I don't think it's quite as "male-dominated" as you perceive. Based on the newsletters I get, they still have quite a few women in the program. It's worth checking out.

Other than invitations to AIChE (professional organization) meetings that were postcards with women in bikinis, and suggestive calendars from Ridgid hanging everywhere--all way back in the late 70s/early 80s--I never experienced any problems.

[OakLeaf]

it just has a stupid name.

hijack

Why stupid? I think it's cool that the name recalls the historical period when it was first chartered?

/hijack

[Owlie]

hijack

Why stupid? I think it's cool that the name recalls the historical period when it was first chartered?

/hijack

It is, but it results in everyone who isn't from Ohio thinking it's a military school, which is laughable, considering its student body...
(Especially now that the officially-sanctioned abbreviation is in fact "Case Western Reserve":rolleyes: )

[OakLeaf]

Georgena Terry graduated from Carnegie-Mellon, FWIW :) http://www.terrybicycles.com/About-Us

[owlice]

My two former sisters-in-law graduated from Carnegie-Mellon, too, and both of them majored in engineering.

[NbyNW]

+1 to check out Carnegie Mellon. I think it might have been one of the first in the country to report that its entering class of engineering undergrads was majority women, only a few years ago. But don't quote me on that!

I was in college (Columbia, NYC) about 20 years ago :eek: and we shared dorms with the engineering school. I think they have a chapter of SWE. Back then women were definitely in the minority. Some of the things I heard about were like issues of bathroom equity (number and availability in the building) which I think have since been addressed. I think the numbers have improved, too. I knew students both male and female who switched from engineering to college or college to engineering because of wanting to change their major. There was some paperwork involved, but generally not a problem. I imagine things have changed quite a bit. In general I would say the university as a whole is a good place for women, but you might want to do your research specifically on the engineering program.

If she's interested in disaster relief she might also look at joint degrees or whether any programs she's interested in facilitates study with other departments and schools within the university. Every university is different, and depending on the program, she may or may not have time/flexibility to explore those other interests. I had classmates who did some kind of dual degree or masters program at Columbia's School of International and Public Affairs and later went on to work with USAID, and orgs like that. It's well worth researching whether the schools she's interested has specific programs or partnerships, with other programs, agencies, study abroad, etc., that will help her explore how she can use that degree.

[smilingcat]

Yes Columbia Uni does/did have SWE chapter. If you can survive the engineering school there, you can survive just about anywhere.


So, in some ways, it might be better if your daughter faces some of these challenges while still in school. Hopefully, it'll help her develop some constructive ways to deal with it or, perhaps, make her carefully evaluate whether it's something she really wants to do.

Indy's statement is a sage advice. You have to meet the eventual difficulties head on while still in college. Learn how to deal with it there instead of real life job. This will make it harder on while in college but it will prepare you for the eventual difficulties we all face in real life.

As JFK said, "...and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills..."

[colorisnt]

Wow. Your kid really is a dead ringer for me as a teen - in reverse. I wanted to do nuclear engineering and took nothing but science before switching to poli sci.

I definitely second the Society of Women Engineers.

My mother works in industrial engineering. And she actually prefers to work with men. She is the only woman in her department. I don't actually know how she does it sometimes! Honestly, the reason I didn't do it was not the math or science, but the lack of social contact. Finding a department that works is never simple, but there are ones that work.

I have a friend who is here in nuclear engineering and one in chemical engineering (both women) and they love it here at MU. Yes, there are only a small number of women, but it is growing. There is a chapter of SWE here and they have mentoring and get-togethers. Purdue is another place I have/had friends. Similar situation there.

I like big state schools and the opportunities they offer, so I focused my search mainly on IU and Purdue and Purdue had an engineering school. Rose Hulman is smaller, but WAY worse on the male dominant thing and mom and dad said heck no to the tuition. In the end, I hated Purdue, so I didn't need to break my Dad's heart and go there. The campus was ugly in comparison to IU (the place I had idolized as THE university since a baby) and it was really conservative. Tell her to go visit campuses and realize that she needs a COMMUNITY around her.

Ask lots of questions and I am sure it will work out!

[GLC1968]

Women in engineering varies greatly by the major. I was an EE and there were very, very few women. Computer engineering had more women, Civil even more and Chemical had probably the most at my school...Mechanical? Almost none. Every school has it's specialty, too, so it would help to know what direction she would want to go.

I specialized in RF/wireless engineering because that was what my school was known for and it has since served me very well. Now I recruit for my company from the top RF/Wireless schools and I can tell you, that the top schools in engineering in general do not even make our list as the top schools for our specialty...so school choice/program choice can matter quite a bit. She can get top education at non-top schools (for less than top dollar!) if she can narrow down her direction. Thought I know this is asking an awful lot of an 18 year old (I surely wouldn't have been able to make that choice back then!)!

As far as the best programs for women, I will mention again that it can really vary by major. I definitely second the recommendation to check with SWE (Society of Women Engineers) as they have chapters in every engineering university in this country (and many internationally). If they track this, they'll be a great resource.

[Jserrty]

I am a women mechanical engineer in an Oil and Gas Multinational. Generally, we are treated the same as men. You are expected to know your stuffs and be good at it. But sometimes, we do get the perks from being female. They don't scream at you as loud. :-)

Professional Women Organization (http://www.bpwfoundation.org/)

[Grog]

Carnegie Mellon has made conscious efforts, research, and changes in this direction, and it's working (as exemplified by the testimonies on this thread):
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/gendergap/www/index.html

[shootingstar]

Jsserty's comment made me laugh.

Have any of you ever worked for a major construction engineering project? Whoaaaaa...

I think it helps for any discipline, to enroll in a university program where both genders are treated well as students and individuals.

But the big factor....is what the woman engineer does after graduation and where she goes to work in her career. Some types of organizations are inherently better than others --- government (I worked for a regulatory agency for a decade, that made a consicous effort to hire top female engineers. So there were 5 women, all different, civil, chemical, mechanical, all great people in a team of 18 engineers) vs. some private sector firms.

The oil firm that my partner spent most his career, made a serious effort to hire female engineers. And over the years, some of these women moved into senior management positions within the firm.

I am not an engineer, but 50% of my career I've had engineers as my client group. One does see certain patterns of promotion, non-promotion, certain types of assignments and stories... Construction engineering project where I was, it would have been tough for a female engineer. Out of 40 plus engineers, none were supervisors nor managers.

Really, it depends where one goes, career-wise.

I forgot --one of my nieces did her degree in geological engineering. (Queen's University, Canada). She works for a software firm that handles technical modelling in the geotechnical field. Their main clients are exploration firms, mining firms, etc. It's a male dominant industry where she is. Her clients are primarily male engineers, geologists, etc.

She is 26 yrs. old.

[Jolt]

It hasn't been mentioned yet, so I have to put in a plug for Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) in Worcester, MA. Of course I'm biased, because I went there (for biology/pre-med, not engineering) but I loved it and they have made a lot of efforts toward recruiting women--the ratio is still pretty skewed toward guys, but getting better. They have just about any kind of engineering program one could want, including fire protection as was mentioned in a previous post. It's private but fairly generous with scholarships. Another unique thing about the school is the projects program--there are three projects students do during their time there (one in the humanities, one dealing with the relationship between science/technology and society, not necessarily within one's major, and the final one usually done in the senior year being a project within the student's major, and students have a lot of freedom to decide what they want it to be). She could most likely design a project that has to do with disaster relief, which would help her get into that field when she graduates.

[Crankin]

I second WPI. Few people outside of this area know about it. It's a cool place.
My DH runs a division of a large software company; he is the "business" person, who is in charge of 250+ engineers all over the world. He has a difficult time recruiting women, as the people in his division have to travel frequently. He has hired few couples, though, as a "package."
Several of these engineers went to Michigan Tech, a school I never heard of before. Also, VA Tech, and Carnegie Mellon. But really, they went to all kinds of schools, including many overseas.

[Titania]

I graduated with a degree in Biomedical Engineering (heavy emphasis on electrical engineering) in 1996. When I graduated, there were 5 women in the entire engineering school. I was treated fantastically by faculty. I think a big part of that was the fact that I was a good student. As a matter of fact, all of the girls were tops in their various classes...I think we all felt the burden of needing to prove ourselves. I think academic aptitude has much more to do with how you're treated than gender. That was certainly my experience.

No matter where your daughter chooses to go, she's going to be a minority. It's just the way it is...women don't enter the engineering fields at the same rate as men. As has already been mentioned, some engineering disciplines are more likely to attract women than others.

SWE (Society of Women Engineers) is a fantastic resource. I was a member all through my college years.

I know many women engineers who have graduated from WPI. It's both a great school, and has a great atmosphere. The school I graduated from (Western New England College) has a fantastic (if relatively unknown) engineering school. I loved my time there...mostly because the faculty were really awesome. My husband graduated from Renneslaer Polytechnic Institute with a degeree in Electrical Engineering. He loved it, and there were many girls there. I've met several of his female college engineer friends, and they're all bright women.

No matter what schoool she goes to, college is still just a microcosm, and not terribly reflective of the working world. I haven't personally experienced discrimination, but I know how hard it was to be confident when you're a young woman, just out of school, trying to change the ways of male engineers who are 20+ years your senior. It gets better, as most things do, with age and experience. :) But, those first few years will be a bit scary for her. She's got to find her inner strength and know her stuff 2x better than the guys.

[jahnin24f]

I graduated with engineering major but in Industrial Engineering women dominated men by numbers and also in other majors(EE, CE, etc). However, in Mechanical Engineering only 2% of the class is women in 5 years. And it still the same figure nowadays.
One of the professor in that major told us that the course requires more physical skills and strength but the dealings of male students and other program are fine. I'd witnessed both of our female batch mate in that course graduated on time with us.