Mtb Instruction & Skills

[Artista]

Catrin & Indy, which skills did you learn in the clinic? Which skill(s) are you finding to be the toughest?

We practiced neutral and what they called "ready" position, modulated and controlled braking, what they called "window washing," i.e,. getting up out of the saddle and moving our body back and forth over the bike, moving fore and aft over the saddle, ratcheting and tight turns, and getting our front wheel up. At least those are the ones I remember.

I had a bit of trouble with getting my wheel up, although I got better with it as the day progressed, and I still have room for improvement on tight turns. Honestly, I thought I did pretty well during the skills and drills portion; it's simply a matter of integrating it once on the trail. I felt pretty good on the trail itself, too, so long as I wasn't descending. Descending scares me a bit. I think part of it is that I'm having trouble braking with one finger. As I mentioned upthread, DH is going to adjust my levers to a bit easier for me. I'll see if that helps. Part of it is "just" mental. I need practice and exposure to lessen my nerves.

I had no problems with the neutral/ready/fore/aft positions. The sideways, "window washing" technique was challenging and I am unsure that I actually have that down. Hopping over a little stick with my front wheel was also challenging. I did improve a bit on this, but I do not think that I could actually hop over a real obstacle, that is going to take some time and that is ok. More upper body strength can only help

Shifting was something of a challenge on the trail, but that improved when I just put it in the granny gear and worked with the little gears.

The braking techniques were fun, and I found my balance to be better than I expected, so that was all good. We did some sharp turn practices and I did have a little trouble with this. I think the trouble was more from having others so close to me - most of my road riding is solo so I am just not accustomed to having other cyclists in such close proximity. Ever. Of course, one doesn't normally do such tight turns on the road so I need to practice them anyway.

One cool thing that came out of all of the drills. I got so used to the neutral position that I came out of one drill still standing on my pedals and actually caught myself pedaling! Resistance wasn't high enough for that, not really, but I've NEVER been able to do that on my other bikes

The "ready" position is a little difficult for me to separate from the ready position for some reason...but one of the instructors pulled me aside and helped me to figure it out. This still needs practice, but it was a great start!
I started this new thread on skills & instruction to avoid hijacking the thread on Trails. Here goes:

I also decided to invest in a couple of mtb lessons. It seemed that every time I tried to tackle more advanced obstacles on my own, I didn't get any better, I just crashed more.

My instructor was very helpful & it turns out that we covered similar skills in my first lesson as what was taught in the clinic. The best suggestion my instructor made was to do drills. The drills uncovered some weakness in my techniques that weren't easily identifiable on the trails, or even during the lesson. For instance, I can corner to the left with relative ease but tight, right, cornering is far more difficult for me. Who would have guessed that I needed to work on something so seemingly simple as right turns?

The good news is that drilling tight turns, allowing the bike to lean while keeping my body perpendicular to the ground, getting used to pronounced fore & aft positions, & lifting the front wheel is improving my bike handling by leaps & bounds. The drills also allow me to experiment with proper braking techniques, the lack of which I'm pretty sure contributed to several of my crashes. I'm going to stay off the trails & dedicate myself to drilling, (including getting used to being clipped in - but that's another story), at least until my next lesson 1 1/2 weeks from now. My only regret is not getting some good instruction sooner.

[indysteel]

Thanks for sharing that and for the good advice!

[Catrin]

Thanks for starting this thread! I am going to practice my drills on both mtn bike and Gunnar - I won't try to hop with the Gunnar but I certainly can practice my body positioning.

I found some easy dirt as well, and I've found a couple of people willing to ride the trail I was on Sunday with me - it will just be a matter of scheduling.

[kimikaw]

Great idea to start this thread. I really cannot even begin to express what a difference the two real clinics I've done have made on my riding. By real I mean ones who follow a protocol like the IMIC one the Midwest Women's Clinic and the Ray's Women's clinic use. I also did a mini clinic last fall at a local race - was a informal mini clinic. Got me to try riding, but didn't really teach me anything.

I often see guys ( over on mtbr) react to the do a clinic suggestion w/ why spend the money just go ride. Yeah, that's one way...but as you've learned you might never progress. Or as Jonathon ( one of my coach this trip - along w/ TE's own TrekJeni) put it traditionally folks learned by riding with friends, and often getting hurt. Learning the fundamentals the right way ( ESP right off the bat) is HUGE.

And for me, doing so in an all women format even better

Which leads me to drills. I do them every opportunity. This weekend I felt like I had a bit of a breakthrough in my bike/body feel, weight shifting and balance. I think some of that due to practicing ready/neutral/back/forward on my commuter (which is a more MTB geometry hybrid). I have a hilly commute and have been doing major parts standing in MTB stance. On streets.

The other big key for me is really looking forward, not down like road riding. And trusting myself to do it. Plus very deliberately telling myself mentally not to look at the tree, or the rock or the drop off. I have this constant chatter in my head, watch ahead where you're going, where you want to go. Doing that at the clinic in the field on high speed turns had me killing them. Which felt great. I wasn't 't as aggressive yet on the trail, but I'm getting there.

We'll be doing family drills on the skills from this weekend in the yard- even pulling some logs and rocks out of our woods to practice going over. Should be fun!

[indysteel]

Thanks for starting this thread! I am going to practice my drills on both mtn bike and Gunnar - I won't try to hop with the Gunnar but I certainly can practice my body positioning.

I found some easy dirt as well, and I've found a couple of people willing to ride the trail I was on Sunday with me - it will just be a matter of scheduling. Thankfully two of the women are instructors, and the other woman is very experienced.

That's cool, Catrin. I'm sure some time out there with Tania (presumably) will be very helpful. I was eyeing a parking lot here in Franklin to practice some drills.

[Catrin]

That's cool, Catrin. I'm sure some time out there with Tania (presumably) will be very helpful. I was eyeing a parking lot here in Franklin to practice some drills.

I've been pondering parking lot vs dirt for drills, assuming I can find some easy non-technical dirt. Of course, it should probably be both/and rather than either/or. I am thankful my Gunner has, basically, a rigid mountain bike geometry as it will make it easy to practice on it as well.

[Artista]

Just got back from my drills & finished supper. I thought it would be a good idea to share which drills we're doing. Maybe we can get some other ideas, improve our skills, & prevent boredom with our current drills. I'll start:)

My total drill time is about 45 - 60 minutes. My goal is to do these daily for the next 10 days or so, & then a few times a week after that.

The field that I ride in is a 10 minute, gentle climb, from the parking lot. It's a good little warm up. I wouldn't even ride this span clipped in when I first got my SPD's. After a few days, I'm totally confident riding this really easy section while clipped in.
Once I reach the field, I spend a few mintues clipping both feet in & out.
Next comes practice with leaning my bike from one side to the other while keeping my body perpendicular to the ground. I find it more difficult to lean the bike very far now that I'm clipped in. In addition, leaning the bike to the right feels less natural than the other direction, so I spend more time working on the right side.
Then I ride small circles around a large weed in the field. I drew a line in the dirt so that I know whether I'm drifting away from my tight circle. My goal is to do 50 circles in each direction but I sometimes have to stop sooner because my wrists start hurting. Something about riding the circles slowly is really hard on my wrists. I make sure to spend quite a bit of time turning to the right since that's the side I struggle with the most.
I intersperse front wheel lifts & more clipping & unclipping amongst the circle riding.
I end with riding the gentle downhill back to my car with my weight at the rear of the bike. I'm pretty confident with this skill but riding slowly prolongs the amount of time that I hover over the saddle, which is building more muscle in my legs. Speaking of muscle, riding those circles & practicing wheel lifts is giving my upper body a great workout too.

I hope to add more drills after my next lesson. If so, I'll share them with everyone.

Anyone else care to share what they're doing?

[Becky]

Wheelie night! Every so often, DH and I will spend an hour popping (or attempting to pop) wheelies in the back yard. My goal is to consistently lift the front wheel on demand, no matter which leg is forward. I'm more successful with my dominant leg forward, so the other one is definitely a bit of a challenge.

I keep meaning to buy a 2x6 board and practice riding along its length...just for some balance and steering practice.

[limewave]

I should motivate myself to do some of these drills in our yard after the kids go to bed :)

I had gift card for Amazon and downloaded Mastering Mountain Biking Skills. I've been riding all wrong!!!! I need to do some relearning.

[Catrin]

I should motivate myself to do some of these drills in our yard after the kids go to bed :)

I had gift card for Amazon and downloaded Mastering Mountain Biking Skills. I've been riding all wrong!!!! I need to do some relearning.

Would this be a good book for someone at the introductory level? Someone else recommended a book called "Mountain Bike!" which I got from the library, but most of it seems more advanced stuff. Not that I might not get there, but I need to focus on beginning skills. It is my nature to want to jump ahead and I don't want to do that this time :o

I think the drills that gave me the most trouble Sunday was the sideways movement (fore and aft seemed fine), ratcheting and tight turning. Of course hopping was probably the most challenging of all for me. Obviously you can't master anything in a clinic, but they gave me wonderful tools with which to start working :)

I wish I had a yard in which I could practice, I need to actually take my bike somewhere...

[indysteel]

I found this online last night in an effort to learn more about mountain bike drills.

http://www.performancevideo.com/drills_that_improve_Mountain_Biking

It's been a while since I looked, but there are number of tutorials on youtube, too. I need to spend some time just looking online and, of course, actually doing them. DH adjusted my brake levers yesterday so that they're a little easier for me to position my index finger on. He also moved them so that my wrist isn't so cocked. As I've noted, I really struggled to brake sufficiently on the downhill sections of the trail. My finger kept cramping and because of where the brakes were on my bars, my index finger kept gravitating inward--away from where I had the most leverage. Hopefully, this set up will be better.

[limewave]

I just started reading it. The first section was all bout the bike and different kinds of mountain bikes. I found it really informative and interesting as I really know nothing about bikes and all the components.

The section I'm reading now is about position on the bike. It talks alot about the neutral positioning: light hands, heavy feet. The "heavy feet" feeling is completely foreign to me. I do okay with it at certain points, but in my normal riding position most of my weight is on the saddle and I pull up with my legs for the pedal stroke. I feel more pressure from the top of the shoe on my foot than on the pedal.

When I first started riding with clipless pedals, DH emphasized that the purpose of clipping is to utilize the full circular motion, pulling up and pushing down. I guess I focused too much on the up-swing.

[Artista]

My biggest problem with reading & watching YouTube videos is getting the information from my brain to my body. Just like when I thought I had my weight properly positioned over the bike only to have my instructor figure out that I was subtly positioning my hips so that the bike was weighted in the wrong direction. That may sound pretty brainless to a very coordinated & experienced mtb'er, but it's not always so straightforward for the less coordinated among us...like me:)

Indy, your comment about your wrists being cocked before DH repositioned your brake handles may be the answer to my wrist pain when I ride the circles. I'm going to have my fitter take a look at my wrist position when I ride the brakes.

[indysteel]

My biggest problem with reading & watching YouTube videos is getting the information from my brain to my body. Just like when I thought I had my weight properly positioned over the bike only to have my instructor figure out that I was subtly positioning my hips so that the bike was weighted in the wrong direction. That may sound pretty brainless to a very coordinated & experienced mtb'er, but it's not always so straightforward for the less coordinated among us...like me:)

Indy, your comment about your wrists being cocked before DH repositioned your brake handles may be the answer to my wrist pain when I ride the circles. I'm going to have my fitter take a look at my wrist position when I ride the brakes.

I'd really like to take a few additional lessons myself. I have a couple emails out there to instructors from the clinic, but haven't heard back. It would be nice to get some one-on-one help.

[Catrin]

I'd really like to take a few additional lessons myself. I have a couple emails out there to instructors from the clinic, but haven't heard back. It would be nice to get some one-on-one help.

Yes, this! It would be fantastic to be able to do this. Funds are.....tight right now so I don't know that I could make it work right away but would like to do this at some point.

[Artista]

I'd really like to take a few additional lessons myself. I have a couple emails out there to instructors from the clinic, but haven't heard back. It would be nice to get some one-on-one help.

I THINK that personal instruction made a big difference for me. The circle drills are really improving my outlook on hairpin turns, but I won't know for sure until I get back on the trails. Besides, I still have one more lesson to go. Depending on what we cover next time, I may be off of the trails & drilling for longer than I thought. This is killing me. I really want to get back to riding technical stuff but I'm tired of crashing. And then there are the clipless pedals to get used to. I won't try anything technical until I can get out of the pedals 100% of the time under controlled conditions. That should set me up for getting out about 75% of the time in actual riding conditions.;)

[indysteel]

Yes, this! It would be fantastic to be able to do this. Funds are.....tight right now so I don't know that I could make it work right away but would like to do this at some point.

Just ride with Tania for free! :D

Tania's actually one of the people I emailed--at Jonathon's suggestion. I sent it on Monday and haven't heard back just yet. I'll resend it next week or just email Jonathan instead with the hope of greasing the wheels. I also emailed an instructor from B'ton. I have no idea what someone would charge, but I think it would be worth it to me. Short of that, I'll just do the drills and head out with DH to BCSP when we can.

[indysteel]

I THINK that personal instruction made a big difference for me. The circle drills are really improving my outlook on hairpin turns, but I won't know for sure until I get back on the trails. Besides, I still have one more lesson to go. Depending on what we cover next time, I may be off of the trails & drilling for longer than I thought. This is killing me. I really want to get back to riding technical stuff but I'm tired of crashing. And then there are the clipless pedals to get used to. I won't try anything technical until I can get out of the pedals 100% of the time under controlled conditions. That should set me up for getting out about 75% of the time in actual riding conditions.;)

Out of curiosity, have you thought about just ditching the clipless pedals for the time being and using platforms/BMX? I'm not using clipless at the moment and likely won't for a while. Granted, I'm not doing much where clipless would really be of help at the moment either.

[Catrin]

I have no idea what someone would charge, but I think it would be worth it to me. Short of that, I'll just do the drills and head out with DH to BCSP when we can.

I am thankful that a couple of women have told me we can ride together, but it would be nice to know what a formal 1-on-1 training session would cost if it should turn out to be needed. I've emailed one of the professional coaches that live in Indy to find out, really just for the information. I need to get this dog bite bill settled!


Out of curiosity, have you thought about just ditching the clipless pedals for the time being and using platforms/BMX? I'm not using clipless at the moment and likely won't for a while. Granted, I'm not doing much where clipless would really be of help at the moment either.

This is a very good idea. I've no intention on clipping in for quite some time to come, not on the mountain bike. I've some great BMX pedals - they will tear your legs up without protection though so I have shin guards. I was self-conscious about the shin guards before the sessions started Sunday, but was quite thankful for them before the day was over.

If I had been clipped on Sunday on the trail my falls would have been much worse - and at the intro/beginner level I don't think we do anything where that would be required. So, for now, I reserve my Frogs for my other bikes.

[indysteel]

I am thankful that a couple of women have told me we can ride together, but it would be nice to know what a formal 1-on-1 training session would cost if it should turn out to be needed. I've emailed one of the professional coaches that live in Indy to find out, really just for the information. I need to get this dog bite bill settled!

I'm not sure whom you emailed, but if you hear from them and they do offer lessons, let me know. While the clinic's website does mention that some instructiors offer additional coaching opportunities, it doesn't give specifics.

[Catrin]

I'm not sure whom you emailed, but if you hear from them and they do offer lessons, let me know. While the clinic's website does mention that some instructiors offer additional coaching opportunities, it doesn't give specifics.

I certainly will, I believe she coaches for a living so I've no idea what it might cost or her availability, but it seemed worthy of a question. I will email you when I get more information.

[indysteel]

I certainly will, I believe she coaches for a living so I've no idea what it might cost or her availability, but it seemed worthy of a question. I will email you when I get more information.

Is it Sally Marchand? If so, I'm assuming she caters to advanced and competitive riders and that her price reflects that. It's be nice to be wrong though!

[Catrin]

Is it Sally Marchand? If so, I'm assuming she caters to advanced and competitive riders and that her price reflects that. It's be nice to be wrong though!

Yes, she is the one I've contacted. She also does work coaching teams for the Leukemia fundraiser (can't think of what it is called) and she said many of them are beginning/intermediate riders. It doesn't hurt to ask, and I do want a chance to get some of my own practicing under my belt anyway - even if I did have the money right away. It is really more for my information...but right now I think I just need to do my drills and ride with more experienced women than I when I can :)

[indysteel]

Yes, she is the one I've contacted. She also does work coaching teams for the Leukemia fundraiser (can't think of what it is called) and she said many of them are beginning/intermediate riders. It doesn't hurt to ask, and I do want a chance to get some of my own practicing under my belt anyway - even if I did have the money right away. It is really more for my information...but right now I think I just need to do my drills and ride with more experienced women than I when I can :)

She coaches for Team in Training. Her husband died from leukemia. :(

[Catrin]

She coaches for Team in Training. Her husband died from leukemia. :(

That's right, I forgot about that :(

[Catrin]

Oh, I wanted to say this. For assorted reasons tonight was my first real ride of any kind since the clinic and I was out on my Gunner for a sweet 20 miles. I actually found myself even more comfortable on the Gunnar and did a few things on it that I've never done before. It is great how even the first exposure to a different skill set has benefit on all of our riding :cool:

[Artista]

Out of curiosity, have you thought about just ditching the clipless pedals for the time being and using platforms/BMX? I'm not using clipless at the moment and likely won't for a while. Granted, I'm not doing much where clipless would really be of help at the moment either.

Yes, I considered staying with platforms & am not ruling out going back to them. The problem is that my skills are advanced enough that I'm taking some pretty bumpy obstacles like rock gardens on moderate hills, small ledges, etc. (These aren't the obstacles that are causing me to crash, btw.) My feet are already bouncing around on the platforms. My instructor & awesome-bike-shop-dude-who-mountain-bikes are about the same size as I am, which is pretty small. (OK the bike-shop-dude is a few inches taller but we probably weigh about the same.) Based on their experience, they're both concerned that my feet will bounce off of the pedals as I begin taking even bumpier obstacles. Having a foot bounce off of a pedal in the middle of a very steep & technical rock garden could cause an even worse crash than not being able to get out of clipless pedals on the rare occasion that I actually have some reaction time.

In truth, the idea of mountain biking in clipless pedals has my nerves on edge. I've given it a lot of thought, though, & have come to the following conclusions:

It seems that most crashes happen so fast that I'm on the way down before I have time to consider what to do with my feet. That means that I would probably be unable to prevent a crash even if I could get my feet out of the pedals before I hit the ground. That's sure been the case with the platforms so far.
I wonder if we attribute too many crashes to clipless pedals because one of the last sensations that we remember before hitting the ground is that our feet were tugging at the bike. Again, it would seem that by that time, it would be too late to prevent the crash by getting our feet loose.
It seems that most of the falls that can legitimately be attributed to clipless pedals are the slow speed falls or tip-overs where we actually had some reaction time but couldn't get our feet loose. These slow speed falls are usually pretty harmless.
I do have big concerns about being more seriously injured in a crash if I hit the ground with my feet still attached to the bike. I choose SPD's with multi-directional release cleats for my mountain bike for this reason. I've already tipped over a few times with these pedals & my feet came loose the moment I hit the ground. I can't say as much for the Frogs that I love on my road bike & the Candies that I couldn't make friends with.


So all of this makes perfect sense in my head but fear still strikes my heart when I think of taking my SPD's on the trail. I'll probably carry my platforms with me on the first few trail rides so that I can change out in the middle of the ride if I think it will keep me safer.

I'm also seriously considering getting a remote control seat post. The post would allow me to lower the seat a bit & ride unclipped over or around some obstacles. It would also be awesome to be able to lower the seat when starting out on both downhills & uphills. The remote control would allow me to quickly raise my seat to the best riding height for uphills once I got going. The posts are pretty expensive though...like $300.

[Catrin]

What about a good set of BMX pedals and real grippy shoes like Five Tens? I've been told the soles of these shoes are SO grippy they really grab onto the pins of the pedals and won't bounce off. I am considering a pair of these shoes for myself.

I am considering the same remote control seat-post - but not this year. Once I have the basic skills under my belt and my trail riding to fall ratio reverses then I will do this. Because of my fit needs other than inseam, the saddle height on my Jamis is going to be well above my bars and I think that will make things easier later on to be able to get the seat post out of the way easily when I need to do so.

I couldn't justify it at this stage, even if I had the money...

[Artista]

What about a good set of BMX pedals and real grippy shoes like Five Tens? I've been told the soles of these shoes are SO grippy they really grab onto the pins of the pedals and won't bounce off. I am considering a pair of these shoes for myself.

I am considering the same remote control seat-post - but not this year. Once I have the basic skills under my belt and my trail riding to fall ratio reverses then I will do this. Because of my fit needs other than inseam, the saddle height on my Jamis is going to be well above my bars and I think that will make things easier later on to be able to get the seat post out of the way easily when I need to do so.

I couldn't justify it at this stage, even if I had the money...

Thanks for the suggestion. I have BMX pedals & grippy shoes on my back-up list if the SPD's don't work out. I knew that shoes were less likely to slip on BMX pedals but I hadn't heard that they were less likely to bounce too.

I found new, remote control, seat posts on ebay at a slight discount. The discount isn't big enough to get my business from my LBS, though.

How's that lower handlebar thing on the Jamis working for you? I thought you would do a more upright position on your mtb because of your hands.

[Catrin]

Apparently some BMX riders use the Five Tens with BMX pedals and their feet stay in place, I think the pins kind of dig into the soles if I understand what is going on and you can actually pull up on the pedals.

The saddle height on my Jams is currently lower than it should be - right now it is important that I be able to get my feet to the ground quickly :o Eventually I will need a different stem as I get more experienced/comfortable and spend more time on the bike. I require a short reach as well, which is one of the reasons my Jamis is a size smaller than probably someone else with my measurements would order. My fitter and I worked it out though.

So far the different position isn't bothering my hands, but it isn't like I am spending long periods of time on the bike without stopping, falling, something :) The problem is the reach - with the larger sizes the TT is much, much too long for me... Thankfully my hand position on mountain bars doesn't automatically cause pain like it does on road bars...and I am probably stronger than I was a year ago.

[Artista]

I've also found that I have more latitude in my mtb fit than I do with the road bike. Yes, stopping more must have something to do with it, but I think our bodies just plain move differently while mtb'ing compared to road riding.

On another note, I changed from Frogs to SPD's on my road bike when I put SPD's on my mtb. It seemed safer & more efficient to teach my feet to unclip the same way on both bikes.

Today was my first road bike ride with the new pedals. The road bike pedals were way easier to unclip than the ones on my mtb. I was sure that there was a difference in the pedal tension between the two bikes. I did back-to-back test rides for comparison. It turns out that there is no difference at all. After riding the road bike, I was able to unclip easily on the mtb. Once I reproduced the "trapped" effect on both bikes, it messed with my ability to unclip from the road bike too.

At this point, I'm thinking that my unclipping drills on the mtb are doing more harm than good. I have a plan...this weekend, I'm going to take the road bike out for a quick ride to get that unclipping muscle memory back & then go straight to the trail with the mtb where I'll have less opportunity to over-think the unclipping process. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Artista]

I did it! Rode my favorite trail clipped in. I did tip over once but I think I might have fallen even on platforms under the circumstances. Hubby was riding a little ahead of me & saw a small snake curled up in the side of trial. He knew that it was a harmless bull snake & decided not to warn me for fear that I might freak-out & fall ON the snake. (Bull snakes aren't venomous but they would still probably bite anything that landed ON them.) By the time I got to the snake it was stretched out in the middle of the trail. I had no choice but to run over it. I still got a little freaked-out, (first afraid that it might bite me, then felt bad that I might have killed it), looked up to see hubby stopped right in front of me, slammed on the brakes & fell lightly to the side. All in all, pretty harmless for for us, but maybe not such a great day for the snake.

The cornering & braking drills were very helpful. I was in much better control around the tight curves than in the past. I think I've passed the learning plateau that I was on. I feel good!:D

ETA: While I was still a nervous about being clipped in, the nervousness was countered by the security I felt in not having my feet bounce around on the pedals in the rock gardens.

[indysteel]

That's great, Artista....minus the snake!

I need to do some drills tomorrow. DH was working on my bike today to see if you can't get the front shifting to be a bit easier. From what we've read, the cheap SRAM shifters have their weaknesses. Shifting in the back is fine, but not so in the front. We might switch out some of the components from the my Trek FX that I never ride or spring for an X-7 shifter. I don't want to put much money into this bike because it really was intended to just allow me to see if this is something I might really like such that I can justify a nicer bike.

[Artista]

Indy, if DH can't get the front shifting thing resolved without spending $$$ on your shifters, would it be possible for you to ride primarily in one chain ring? 80% of my favorite trail can be done in my small chain ring. I end up spinning out sometimes but I always know that another uphill is right around the corner so I just coast in my small chain ring for a little while.

[solobiker]

Artista...where do you ride your mtn bike? I live in Denver too and am fairly new to mtn biking. DH and I have been spending time up at Buff Creek.

[Catrin]

I've found on the fire road from a few weeks back and on Pine Loop last week, that it works for me just to stay in the small ring. The easiest gear on my middle chain is just a touch too hard for some of the climbing, and I dropped my chain when I tried to shift. This was not the bike but the user as I waited much too long to shift :o

I've a 10-speed cassette (11-36). Indy is a stronger climber than I am right now, I've hopes of narrowing that gap a little :D

[indysteel]

Indy, if DH can't get the front shifting thing resolved without spending $$$ on your shifters, would it be possible for you to ride primarily in one chain ring? 80% of my favorite trail can be done in my small chain ring. I end up spinning out sometimes but I always know that another uphill is right around the corner so I just coast in my small chain ring for a little while.

So far, I've mostly been in my middle ring. To the extent I have to shift to my small chain ring, the shifter works just fine in that direction. It's moving up from small to medium to large that's difficult. I doubt I'll need the large ring much, but it would be nice to go from small to medium without breaking my thumb.

[Catrin]

So far, I've mostly been in my middle ring. To the extent I have to shift to my small chain ring, the shifter works just fine in that direction. It's moving up from small to medium to large that's difficult. I doubt I'll need the large ring much, but it would be nice to go from small to medium without breaking my thumb.

I understand now, I thought you were having problems shifting down. If I had the money I would change my front shifter from trigger to an XO grip shifter to save my thumb, but not just yet. Next year :)

[Artista]

Artista...where do you ride your mtn bike? I live in Denver too and am fairly new to mtn biking. DH and I have been spending time up at Buff Creek.
Solobiker, our favorite place to ride so far is Ridgeline in Castle Rock. It's a series of interconnected trails, some of which are more fun to ride than others. The best route we've found so far seems to be about a moderate-beginner level. It starts with a short, steep climb, around a curve. Then it flattens out into about 1.5 miles of flow-y single track. Then there's about a mile of climbing with a few tight curves - but still very do-able. The top of the mesa offers beautiful vistas - a great place to stop & catch your breath & get some water. After a short rest, we follow about .5 miles of flow-y single track to the easy, rock gardens with mostly buried, head-size, rocks. Then starts the downhill with a couple of nerve racking switch backs. From there, we usually do a section that's about .5 miles long with some extended, steep climbing, followed by steep downhill. (I've been walking most of this part. I think I'm now strong enough to ride parts of it after I get used to my SPD's. I have the most problems unclipping when my legs are very tired, which they would be on this uphill section.) Then it's a super easy, .5 mile ride back to the parking lot. The whole ride is about 8 miles & takes me about an hour, although my strong, skilled, hubby says he can do it in about 40 minutes when he's alone. These trails are fairly populated but the users are mostly middle aged men on bikes, & women hikers with their dogs. Everyone is friendly uses good trail etiquette.

We also do Greenland, between Castle Rock & Colorado Springs. I consider these trails to be easy-beginner with nothing technical, but they offer beautiful views. The east-side trail is very wide with several miles of moderate climbing. The downhill portion is long with some sand just to keep things interesting.

The west side, Greenland trails, are mostly double track with some rolling hills. Again, nothing that I would consider very technical.

I did a women's group ride in Colorado Springs on the Ute Valley trails. The technical sections ranged from advanced beginner to intermediate level. These trails presented my first exposure to riding large, smooth, granite rock, sections. There was one section of very steep downhill with big, smooth, rocks that all of the intermediate riders did. I was astounded!

The Ute Valley trails would have been better if not for the young, male riders, with no consideration for others. Not sure if that's the norm there or an isolated experience.

We want to try the Bear Creek trails someday. I hear that they offer enough technicality to keep things interesting without striking fear into an advanced-beginner rider.

We should bring our husbands & do some rides together this summer.

ETA: I included a description of the first trail for clarification on what I consider moderate-beginner obstacles. I'm never sure about what others consider beginner, intermediate & advanced.

[solobiker]

Sounds great Artista. I think you may like Buffalo Creek. It is a beginner/intermediate with no real technical areas. Some climbing but very do able. There are some sandy areas which I am getting better at. There are all sorts of trails and in some areas you can hook on to the Colorado Trail which is very fun. I would like to find the one down by Castle Rock you wrote about. Sounds nice. Have you tried Centenial Cone? It is a very nice trail area. Quite a bit of climbing but very smooth. If you try on a weekend it alternates between hikers and bikers. Hikers on odd days, Bikers on Even days. Throughout the week is fair game. :)

[Artista]

So what kind of condition is Buffalo Creek in after the fire? Hubby is thinking that it's still pretty barren:( Maybe not the area you're riding in, though.

We just finished riding Greenland on the west side of the railroad tracks. I'm disappointed that the trail has deteriorated into mostly sand now. I hit deep sand a few times at high speed after coming off of what little hard-pack there is. In keeping with the original subject of this thread, I learned that my SPD's release on their own when I'm having trouble maneuvering the bike:) I was able to save a couple of falls because my feet released automatically. I tipped over once, but again, both feet were out before I hit the ground. I'm beginning to trust my reactions & my SPD's. Maybe they won't be the death of me afterall:rolleyes:

Also, I was again thankful for my cornering & braking drills. Just call me the drill queen. I can't wait for my next lesson!

Solobiker, the Ridgeline trails in Castle Rock can be a little tough to find if you don't know where you're going. How about if we set up a ride date? I'll PM you. Any other Denverites want to join us? Send me a PM!

[solobiker]

Artista, Yes...some areas are barren once you climb up on the ridge. But for the most part it is not too bad. We like it because it does not get too crowded because there are so many different trails to take and you can easily hook on to the Colorado trail which is very nice to ride on.

We rode at Bear Creek once, it is not too bad for an after work kind of ride. However I would not go on a weekend because it is only "okay".

I will try to attach a pic of the Buff Creek/Colorado trail. If It works the one I have uploaded is on the Colorado Trail. Hope it works.

[Artista]

Wow! It does look pretty there. Glad to know that the fire didn't get everything. Is there anything technical on the Buffalo Creek or Colorado trails? I'm partial to bumpy stuff...rock gardens, small ledges, etc.

Your picture reminded me of some trails that we used to hike on Rampart Range. There is enough technicality to those trails that I never wanted to ride them. I think we'll give it a try on the mtb's now that I'm a stronger rider & have better technical skills.

[solobiker]

The areas we go are not too technical..some roots and rock ledges depending upon where you ride. I think Charlies Cutoff has a few small ledges. There are 2 new trails that have been opened up that I have heard are pretty technical. I can't think of the names of them right now. I am not too much into the technical stuff. Our plan is to focus on distance. I need to build up my toleracnce as I have a bad back and it starts hurting after awhile. Our first few rides my back lasted only about 14-16 miles. A few weeks ago we rode close to 30 which was nice. I am not the fastest but I can go for long periods of time without resting.

Speaking of Technical..have you ridden White Ranch? That is pretty techy. You may also like Walker Ranch. We have ridden that last year. It is a nice loop with quite a bit of climbing.

Enjoy!!:D

[solobiker]

Artista, I have tried to send you a PM but there is an error. I will try again most likely on Monday.

[Artista]

No to White Ranch & Walker. I actually forgot about those. You're right. Colorado...so much to do, so little time!:D

Wow! 30 miles on an mtb. I'm impressed. I reserve that kind of mileage for my road bike.

Got your PM. Not sure what was up with the error you received. I just answered you.

[indysteel]

DH and I camped last nigth at BCSP and rode some trails this morning and, again, this afternoon. We started off with the trail I'd previously done. There were a few too many soft spots in the middle part of the trail, so after a loop, I sent DH to ride a different trail while I worked on some drills. I went back to the trail a bit later and rode each end and then turned around to avoid the middle. I was really pleased to make some progress on the part of the trail that's a bit of a gradual downhill. On previous passes, I felt a little out of control. This time, I did it out of the saddle with my butt back and I did much better. After that, we met DH's parents in town for lunch and then headed back out later in the afternoon. This time, we did a trail called Limekiln. It's also a beginner trail but is a bit more technical. One part is rocky. I need to work on that part a bit more. Another part is rollercoastery (is that a word?). That was fun! I did pretty well on the trail minus a few minor hiccups, but it's going to take a few more passes for me to feel a bit more controlled. I just made once pass this time because, frankly, I was beat. I sent DH to do the trail in reverse, while I made my way back via the road.

So, all in all a good outing. Bit by bit, I'm getting a bit more confidence. At one point, I chased a group down that was doing the Pine Loop to warn them that a good portion of the trail was arguably too wet to ride. I was sort of tearing down the trail before it dawned on me that I was perhaps going a bit too fast for my skill level. The group ignored me unfortunately. :(

[Catrin]

Sounds like you did great! You have had a chance to get out there a lot more than I have been able to. Was this the first time on your mountain bike since the Clinic? I haven't been on mine since then :(

What I hope to do is some drills tomorrow, then a couple of times during the week. If the weather holds I hope to drive down to BCSP Friday after my training session and ride Pine Loop by myself. If Pine is too wet at that time, I will start at the end of Limekiln that starts next to Walnut (not the roller coaster end) and see how it goes. I might turn back at the rocky bit or I might not :D

[indysteel]

Yes, it was my first time out since the clinic. Good luck if you go out Friday. Just an FYI that the rollercoaster part of the trail--at least in my opinion--IS the end near Walnut. It's nice and smooth though. The other end is--by the Rally Campground--is rooty, slightly off camber and has a steep dropoff. I don't know which end I'd recommend to you to start. Brian thinks going from the Walnut end to the Rally end is faster. I, personally, would recommend a few safe passes over Pine Loop before trying Limekiln. It's not that I thought Limekiln was hard but Pine Loop is definitely easier, at least over much of it. Here's the thing about Pine Loop though. It's easy enough that you don't necessarily need to use any actual skill on it. I have to force myself to practice what we learned at the clinic. That means getting out of the saddle even though I can arguably ride it seated.

[Catrin]

Here's the thing about Pine Loop though. It's easy enough that you don't necessarily need to use any actual skill on it. I have to force myself to practice what we learned at the clinic. That means getting out of the saddle even though I can arguably ride it seated.

I rode all of Pine seated the one time I've ridden it - of course it helps having a FS. The instructor with me specifically told me to stay in my saddle on the descents - she may have been concerned what would happen if I tried the proper position considering how many problems I had on the trail :o

[Irulan]

Apparently some BMX riders use the Five Tens with BMX pedals and their feet stay in place, I think the pins kind of dig into the soles if I understand what is going on and you can actually pull up on the pedals.

The saddle height on my Jams is currently lower than it should be - right now it is important that I be able to get my feet to the ground quickly :o Eventually I will need a different stem as I get more experienced/comfortable and spend more time on the bike. I require a short reach as well, which is one of the reasons my Jamis is a size smaller than probably someone else with my measurements would order. My fitter and I worked it out though.

So far the different position isn't bothering my hands, but it isn't like I am spending long periods of time on the bike without stopping, falling, something :) The problem is the reach - with the larger sizes the TT is much, much too long for me... Thankfully my hand position on mountain bars doesn't automatically cause pain like it does on road bars...and I am probably stronger than I was a year ago.


funny I am about to ditch clips completely and go for flat pedals with sticky shoes. I know an awful lot of people who ride very successfully this way, climbing or not. I resisted the concept for a long time, but now I am ready to commit. I've been riding clips for almost 15 years on my mtb but that's about to change.

PS ladies, a reminder to loosen up and have fun, don't think so much about everything. Put a silly song in your head and sing it to yourself when you go down the trail and encounter "interesting" things. It will get your brain out of the way ( overthinking) and let you body do what you've taught it to do.

[indysteel]

Good advice, Irulan. At one point on today's trail I told me husband "I think I'm having fun." I meant it more or less, but the primary emotion is abject fear. It's hard for me to loosen up out there. I'm trying though, and I do have some weeeee! moments, but it's just very contrary to my overly analytical lawyer mind. I can't even say that I'm over thinking it; it's more that I'm over worrying it.

Catrin, as far as getting out of the saddle on that descent, I'm not sure why Lindsay had you seated. It made a HUGE difference today. I rode my brakes, too, trust me, but I felt totally in control. It was actually kind fun, and it gave me some condidence for Limekiln. Of course, you gotta come to these things in your own time and way. I get really frustrated with Brian when he doesn't let me just work it out.

Next time I'm out, I'd like to work on a few rocky areas. That's my current OMG what do I do? issue. Brian says I gotta stop the urge to brake so much over them and let momentum be my friend.

[indysteel]

Catrin, I should clarify that when I say that I need to ride Pine Loop out of the saddle to practice skills, I mean over the whole trail, not just the descents. I found it helpful to get up in a neutral or ready position even when I could have ridden it seated just to get some practice doing it--because on Limekiln you arguably do need to be out of your saddle at times. What's great is that it really does make it easier to feel and stay in control, rather than to feel like the bike is riding me.

[kimikaw]

Jealous you made it back to Brown Cty, indysteel! We loved Limekiln! Kiddo and I did it both ways, hubby only from the end by the Park office to rally. We decided that it is more strenuous that direction, maybe faster from rally campground. Like you had trouble with some of the rocky bits, esp. the piece with the tight turn and rocks. Kiddo told me to just ride it, not think about it. Which probably is good advice...I balked on the walnut to rally trip, flew through it on return.

I love the roller coaster parts. Just get out of your seat and go. Locally some of our trails have those and I don't always get up them. What a difference a bit of descent and some momentum/ speed make.

Trying to figure out a trip back down there. Hopefully we can do it in Sept or Oct

Catrin- you asked me how often I make it down to Indy on biz ( been a couple of crazy travel weeks or woulda answered sooner). In my old role, about every month or two, new role less sure, maybe once a quarter. Unsure of next trip. Will let you know if I get one planned with a smidgen of free time.

[indysteel]

Kimikaw, DH and I already have a campsite reserved for October 14-16--the weekend after the Brown County Breakdown and the weekend before the fall crowd descends on Brown County for the fall colors. Maybe we'll see you out there.

[Artista]

Next time I'm out, I'd like to work on a few rocky areas. That's my current OMG what do I do? issue. Brian says I gotta stop the urge to brake so much over them and let momentum be my friend.

I went on a women's group ride a couple of weeks ago & had the opportunity to watch about 12 women with varying skill levels ride over a steep, rocky descent. (I didn't even try riding it.) There was a distinct difference in their ability to control their bikes based on how fast they were going.

The women who rode it with a reasonable amount of speed seemed to skim over the tops of the rocks. They had more control over their bikes with less bouncing & the front wheels stayed the course.
The women who rode it slowly got bounced all over. The voids between the rocks jerked their front wheels all over the place. They had the most difficulty controlling the direction of their bikes.


In the end, it looked as if the women with the most momentum were the least likely to fall, but were more likely to get banged up if they did fall. The women with the least momentum were the most likely to fall, but less likely to hurt themselves if they did.

Fortunately, no one did fall but a few of the slowest women had to put a foot down in the middle of the obstacle while none of the faster riders did.

It seems that the toughest part for a less skilled rider is to figure out how fast is "reasonable" for the conditions.

[kimikaw]

In the end, it looked as if the women with the most momentum were the least likely to fall, but were more likely to get banged up if they did fall. The women with the least momentum were the most likely to fall, but less likely to hurt themselves if they did.

Fortunately, no one did fall but a few of the slowest women had to put a foot down in the middle of the obstacle while none of the faster riders did.

It seems that the toughest part for a less skilled rider is to figure out how fast is "reasonable" for the conditions.

I think that's an excellent observation, especially the last sentence, My worst fall was a slow speed endo over rocks.Didn't have enough momentum to go over...but still enough forward motion that when the front tire wedged, I flipped over the bars.

As I've gotten a little more confidence, I realize more and more what the "Momentum is your friend" mantra is all about. Now to figure out where the point of controlled versus uncontrolled speed is for me at this time (and how to increase that point to a fun but still safe place in the future.

[limewave]

I have used this site (http://vimeo.com/bikejames/videos/page:2/sort:newest) for ideas on strength training and conditioning. My time is so limited and the trails are quite a drive, training on the bike and trail as much as I want to just isn't possible.

[Artista]

I have used this site (http://vimeo.com/bikejames/videos/page:2/sort:newest) for ideas on strength training and conditioning. My time is so limited and the trails are quite a drive, training on the bike and trail as much as I want to just isn't possible.
Those exercises do look effective!

[Catrin]

These look like a large part of my normal session with my trainer - who also is a very strong mountain biker. We do more than these, but we certainly incorporate them. Thanks! It is good to have the link as a reminder.

[indysteel]

What I've been struck by in what little mountain biking I've done so far is just how much core strength is involved. Pilates and/or yoga would be excellent compliments, it would seem, to MTBing. Which reminds me....I need to schedule another Pilates reformer session.....

[kimikaw]

What I've been struck by in what little mountain biking I've done so far is just how much core strength is involved. Pilates and/or yoga would be excellent compliments, it would seem, to MTBing. Which reminds me....I need to schedule another Pilates reformer session.....

Absolutely agree. I'm a huge proponent of yoga, as an important piece of anyone's fitness routine. The core and balance work is great for MTB, and the flexibility work (esp. hip opening) is very helpful for cyclists. But the piece often overlooked, and I think perhaps most important is how a regular yoga practice (esp. with a well trained instructor guiding/correcting your poses) is the increased mind/body awareness. I think this is a big part of my improvement on the trails. Just the sense of where my body is relative to the bike, and an increasingly unconscious ability to make minor adjustments. Believe me, I know I still have tons to learn, and plenty of room to improve - but at same time have made giant jumps in what I can do - and in my confidence in trying Heck, I even was going over little dirt jumps over the weekend. Not getting very airborn, but trying.

The winter before last in addition to my normal yoga practice, I took a couple of series of classes that were either bike/yoga or bike/strength training. Indoors on compu-trainers with a local tri-athlon instructor. First 45 minutes was on trainer, last 45 minutes either yoga or a circuit training session - both designed towards a cyclist. Hope to do same this winter.

(and do you like reformer work? Never have tried that...have done mat classes)

[indysteel]

Absolutely agree. I'm a huge proponent of yoga, as an important piece of anyone's fitness routine. The core and balance work is great for MTB, and the flexibility work (esp. hip opening) is very helpful for cyclists. But the piece often overlooked, and I think perhaps most important is how a regular yoga practice (esp. with a well trained instructor guiding/correcting your poses) is the increased mind/body awareness. I think this is a big part of my improvement on the trails. Just the sense of where my body is relative to the bike, and an increasingly unconscious ability to make minor adjustments. Believe me, I know I still have tons to learn, and plenty of room to improve - but at same time have made giant jumps in what I can do - and in my confidence in trying Heck, I even was going over little dirt jumps over the weekend. Not getting very airborn, but trying.

The winter before last in addition to my normal yoga practice, I took a couple of series of classes that were either bike/yoga or bike/strength training. Indoors on compu-trainers with a local tri-athlon instructor. First 45 minutes was on trainer, last 45 minutes either yoga or a circuit training session - both designed towards a cyclist. Hope to do same this winter.

(and do you like reformer work? Never have tried that...have done mat classes)

You are preaching to the choir when it comes to the mind/body awareness that yoga brings! I'm really happy to hear that my yoga practice could prove helpful on the trail. I'll take all the help I can get!

The reformer is hard. Really hard. I've only taken a few duet sessions, but I am amazed at how difficult some of it is. It is very, very good at isolating muscles. For me, that is significant to the extent I've developed some muscle imbalances over the years. It's very easy to compensate with other muscles, but the reformer will flush that out pretty quickly. It also takes a ton of concentration, which I really like. My mind will wander too easily otherwise. That's one of the reasons I like yoga, too. It requires you to be present. I get a whole lot of stress release out of things that require me to leave the rest of my life at the door.

I gotta say that, so far, I am SO jazzed about mountain biking. I really hope my husband remains ready and willing to go to BCSP frequently while I get my feet wet. He got away from MTBing himself for a few years because he just got tired of always having to drive to the trails. I understand where he's coming from, but I've been less than enthusiastic about road riding since moving from Indy in late 2009 (I miss riding with my friends, and we're just far enough away now that it's somewhat inconvenient to meet up with them on a regular basis), and MTBing is helping me get my groove back. Granted, I could go out there by myself, but (a) I like spending time with him and (b) I'm not quite ready to be out there without him.

Let me know when you're in town next. If you'd like to take a duet reformer session with me at my downtown studio, I could set that up.

[Artista]

Interesting input on Pilates & Yoga. I've been thinking about what I can add to my fitness routine next winter to keep things interesting. I usually lift weights but I need to spice things up a bit. I think I'll look in to these two.

[solobiker]

I have had a bad back for well over 11 years and Yoga has almost always helped it. I need to get back into a conisitent routine with doing it a few times a week. I have only done it by myself with a DVD for instruction. I would love to try Pilates sometime. I know I have a very weak core.

[Catrin]

FINALLY got in a good drills session this afternoon. For some reason on Friday I couldn't seem to get anywhere, I think that it was difficult to focus because of where I was. This morning I found an empty lot in my favorite park, laid out sticks as markers and practiced tighter curves and weaving in and out of them. Needs work but I could see improvement.My body is also starting to get the idea of the body/bike separation required in the sideways "windshield wiper" movement... lots of practice needed here as well.

Also just played around in several grassy areas riding around trees and so forth. It always surprises me at first how much more quad strength is required from the additional resistance. A few of the roadies riding in the park looked at me a bit odd - they aren't used to seeing full suspension mountain bikes there ;)

I want to get two more sessions in, hopefully Wed and Thursday, as I am planning on returning to Brown County State Park Saturday for the first time since the Clinic and hitting the mountain bike "bunny slope". It might be that for more advanced mtn bikers but it is quite challenging for me.

Believe it or not I am a little nervous about the idea of riding it solo (ME?) and I am going to see if anyone I know will be there who might be able to ride it once with me - but that isn't going to stop me :D If I wait until I find someone to ride with me then it might not happen - and I NEED to get out on the trail before my nerves keep me off of it. My lovely Jamis is getting tired of pavement & grass and needs to get dirty ;)

I also found a grassy slope in this same park where I might be able to practice descending properly - the instructor with me the last time had me stay seated on the trail...

BTW, it is interesting to me how much easier it is to get in the right positions on my mountain bike. I've tried some of the same things on my Gunnar (basically a rigid mountain bike frame outside of the fork) and found it really hurts my knees to do so. I suspect it is due to the saddle being lower on my mountain bike... this even applies to holding my pedals at 3 and 9:00 when coasting on a straight bit of road.

[Artista]

I've had virtually no time to drill, or even ride, for the last couple of weeks. I rode a technical trail last Thursday & felt that I had lost some of the muscle memory that I had started to develop when I was drilling regularly. We rode the same trail again yesterday, but this time I did about 10 minutes of drills immediately before hitting the trail. That 10 minutes was all it took to reawaken the muscle memory so that the technical sections were much easier to negotiate.

[indysteel]

I've had virtually no time to drill, or even ride, for the last couple of weeks. I rode a technical trail last Thursday & felt that I had lost some of the muscle memory that I had started to develop when I was drilling regularly. We rode the same trail again yesterday, but this time I did about 10 minutes of drills immediately before hitting the trail. That 10 minutes was all it took to reawaken the muscle memory so that the technical sections were much easier to negotiate.

I'm going to remember that the next time we go out, as I do better with a skill warm-up of some sort, too. We went out again today, and I started with the easiest of the easy trails. We did a couple of laps, and then I worked on a section that had been bothering me (it's a descent into a tight left turn over a bridge. I finally got it, mostly because I finally got out of the saddle to do it. Duh!!!! The sheer act of finally getting something right is a real confidence booster.

I did pretty well today on the more technical aspects of the second trail we did...until fatigue started to set in. I'm in good shape, but it's amazing how fast the trail tires me out. Because I still ride pretty tense, I think that's part of it. I also want to work on having a better idea what my rear wheel is doing. There's a drill in one of my MTB how-to books that is supposed to help with this; I'll have to try it this week.

I'm really thrilled at this point though. I have a long way to go before I master anything, but with each time out there, I feel a bit more secure and skilled. Getting out of the saddle and moving around the bike is SO helpful. I just need to build up my endurance for it.