Neutral Position question

[Catrin]

Several of my Clinic instructors work at my LBS, and indeed one half of the organizing team (married couple) is my fitter. They have advised me to start practicing what they call the neutral position on the bike as much as I can so that it is familiar to me by the clinic.

I tried this yesterday on my Gunnar when coasting down a hill that didn't have any curves in it. First of all, it was REALLY difficult to persuade my feet that they can be at the same height on both pedals - I am so accustomed to having one pedal all the way down. I did, finally, figure out that I stand by pressing on the pedals, NOT using my hands :o :rolleyes:

Cool, got that part figured out, and was able to raise off the saddle a couple of inches briefly. I did this 3-4 times and figured it a decent beginning. I've a month to practice this.

My question is this - is this as much leg strength as balance? It did get easier once I consciously kept my weight off my hands, but it did seem to take a fair amount of leg strength. I didn't raise off the saddle too much because I didn't want to get unstable. It may have just felt this way because it is a new position that, as of yet, feels FAR from natural.

Does it sounds like I am on the right track with this? Any tips?

[jessmarimba]

I'm no expert, but it seems to me to be leg strength. I've done rides where my legs were so tired by the end that I just wanted to sit on the descents (and they don't make a sports bra good enough for that). It kind of reminds me of skiing - I think I'm in good shape until there's a really long run, and then my quads feel like they're going to blow up :) There is definitely balance involved too, as you want to use your weight to steer and that can be harder to think about standing.

As someone who started on a mountain bike, it never occurred to me that it would be difficult to get your butt off the seat going downhill, but I took my sister (a roadie) out last summer and she was very much like you. I finally got her to try it going down the street, but as soon as she was in the trees she had to have full contact with her bike. I didn't take her anywhere steep enough that she'd be forced to move her butt to avoid going over the bars, though.

[Becky]

IMO, it's a combination of leg strength, weight shifting/balance, and body awareness. If you're not able to sense when you're balanced and be aware of where you're located relative to the bike, you'll always feel unsteady. (Does that even make sense?)

With all of the weight training you've been doing, I'm sure that you have the strength to stand on the bike for at least short stretches. (Like Jess said, my quads definitely have a finite limit!) I wonder if working on balance and proprioception would help? Yoga has really helped me in these areas.

As with anything, practice is where it's at. Good idea to get started early....you'll be ahead of everyone else at the clinic! :)

[OakLeaf]

I think it's just balance. You're just standing - it's no more on the large muscles than standing on the ground. A little bit more on the smaller stabilizers, but only a little. More like getting your sea legs.

It's like standing on your head ... if you're unbalanced, it's going to take a lot of core strength; once you find that neutral alignment, you find your spine supports your body weight in either direction. :)

[jessmarimba]

Somewhat random thought here, but how much thought went into what foot you had in front and what behind? I feel most stable on the pedals when I'm standing if my dominant foot is in back, like the way I would stand on a snowboard or skateboard. It's probably what you'd do naturally but I thought I'd toss it out there anyway.

[KnottedYet]

Somewhat random thought here, but how much thought went into what foot you had in front and what behind? I feel most stable on the pedals when I'm standing if my dominant foot is in back, like the way I would stand on a snowboard or skateboard. It's probably what you'd do naturally but I thought I'd toss it out there anyway.

Jessmarimba has a good point.

And I'm more stable with the dominant foot forward. (I also skate with my dominant foot forward). Catrin, just try both ways. I guess you never know which way will work better at first. It's ok to focus on one way for a while learning, but make sure you can do both adequately once you've got it.

You may need to pop up off the saddle to go over a crack in the road or a stick in the trail, and you don't want to be flipping your legs around trying to find the one comfortable way to do it. Be sure you can do it both ways.

[radacrider]

+1 on the balance idea, which applies to most anything. On the bike is no different in any position - just takes some practice to get comfortable with a different position to the point it is second nature.

I use a variety of positions to stretch the legs (rotate between which pedal is at the bottom, then stand and lower the heel), I use the pedal horizontal and lift the bum up slightly - squeeze quads a little against front of seat and top tube for stability - for downhill, aerodynamic position. For those sections of bumpy or wavey pavement I stand a little and pedal or coast in horizontal so arms and legs act like shock absorbers.

Having more positions gives you more options to adapt to a variety of conditions.

[Artista]

Somewhat random thought here, but how much thought went into what foot you had in front and what behind? I feel most stable on the pedals when I'm standing if my dominant foot is in back, like the way I would stand on a snowboard or skateboard. It's probably what you'd do naturally but I thought I'd toss it out there anyway.
Interesting...I naturally keep my dominant foot in the front. But, I also leave my dominant foot clipped in & put my other foot down when I stop on my road bike. These tendencies are probably related.

BTW, my quads start getting grumpy after several minutes in the neutral position too. I agree that it gets easier with practice. That's part of what I love about MTBing - every obstacle offers the opportunity to try a new skill or continue perfecting an acquired skill. Sometimes I'm even presented with the opportunity to practice my "falling over safely skills". :)

[Irulan]

+1 on the balance idea, which applies to most anything. On the bike is no different in any position - just takes some practice to get comfortable with a different position to the point it is second nature.

I use a variety of positions to stretch the legs (rotate between which pedal is at the bottom, then stand and lower the heel), I use the pedal horizontal and lift the bum up slightly - squeeze quads a little against front of seat and top tube for stability - for downhill, aerodynamic position. For those sections of bumpy or wavey pavement I stand a little and pedal or coast in horizontal so arms and legs act like shock absorbers.

Having more positions gives you more options to adapt to a variety of conditions.

You are recommending squeezing saddle and top tube for MOUNTAIN BIKING? Did I read that right? That may be acceptable for road biking, but it's really unstable for mountain biking. Your legs and knees need to be freed up for dynamic riding, which they most certainly are not if you are gripping the saddle and top tube. It forces the center of gravity higher, which makes you top heavy and less stable. Now if you are talking about road technique that's well and good and my apologies for getting all excited. I am a mountain bike coach and undoing the top tube-saddle-thigh grip situation is one of the more primary bad habits I have to help gals undo.

[Irulan]

Several of my Clinic instructors work at my LBS, and indeed one half of the organizing team (married couple) is my fitter. They have advised me to start practicing what they call the neutral position on the bike as much as I can so that it is familiar to me by the clinic.

I tried this yesterday on my Gunnar when coasting down a hill that didn't have any curves in it. First of all, it was REALLY difficult to persuade my feet that they can be at the same height on both pedals - I am so accustomed to having one pedal all the way down. I did, finally, figure out that I stand by pressing on the pedals, NOT using my hands :o :rolleyes:

Cool, got that part figured out, and was able to raise off the saddle a couple of inches briefly. I did this 3-4 times and figured it a decent beginning. I've a month to practice this.

My question is this - is this as much leg strength as balance? It did get easier once I consciously kept my weight off my hands, but it did seem to take a fair amount of leg strength. I didn't raise off the saddle too much because I didn't want to get unstable. It may have just felt this way because it is a new position that, as of yet, feels FAR from natural.

Does it sounds like I am on the right track with this? Any tips?

The farther you are off the saddle, the more stable you will be. The knees slightly bent "I must not touch the toilet seat with my butt" hover is useful, but extending the legs more gives you a lot more options to start moving your body. You may not get some of this until you move into some clinics.

[radacrider]

You are recommending squeezing saddle and top tube for MOUNTAIN BIKING? Did I read that right? That may be acceptable for road biking, but it's really unstable for mountain biking. Your legs and knees need to be freed up for dynamic riding, which they most certainly are not if you are gripping the saddle and top tube. It forces the center of gravity higher, which makes you top heavy and less stable. Now if you are talking about road technique that's well and good and my apologies for getting all excited. I am a mountain bike coach and undoing the top tube-saddle-thigh grip situation is one of the more primary bad habits I have to help gals undo.

No MTB riding, when I am riding on the road:)

[Irulan]

No MTB riding, when I am riding on the road:)

OK Whew. Understand, road descending technique is totally different that mountain bike. No bad feelings but to try and tell a newbie mountain about it is just going to be really confusing. I coach mountain biking, and I tell ya, having to teach former road riders how to loosen up , and quit holding onto the frame with their legs is one of the more common bad habits I have to help undo. This a newbie beginner mountain biker who is trying to learn mountain biking techniques. I know you are just trying to be helpful.:o

[Catrin]

The farther you are off the saddle, the more stable you will be. The knees slightly bent "I must not touch the toilet seat with my butt" hover is useful, but extending the legs more gives you a lot more options to start moving your body. You may not get some of this until you move into some clinics.

I will remember this, and I don't want to go TOO far until I get to the clinic - I don't want to over-compensate and fall over :eek: :o When I finally managed to get the weight on my pedals and not my hands I did feel much more stable - even if it did seem to take more leg strength than I realized to do it. I was able to relax my upper body a tad.

I looked up "proprioception" that Becky mentioned and my trainer has me do those kind of exercises - if they are what I think they are. One good example I can think of are bicep curls on one leg, and there are other things he has me do. I would think my legs should be strong enough for at least short periods standing on the pedals - I can leg press 40 pounds more than I weigh, but of course that is something else. My body isn't moving at the time...

I will mention this to my trainer tomorrow, he is a quite avid mountain biker and am quite sure he will come up with new ways to torture me ;)

For some reason I seem to have an easier time trying things going downhill :) I haven't yet learned how to pedal standing up though...

[Irulan]

I will remember this, and I don't want to go TOO far until I get to the clinic - I don't want to over-compensate and fall over :eek: :o When I finally managed to get the weight on my pedals and not my hands I did feel much more stable - even if it did seem to take more leg strength than I realized to do it. I was able to relax my upper body a tad.

I looked up "proprioception" that Becky mentioned and my trainer has me do those kind of exercises - if they are what I think they are. One good example I can think of are bicep curls on one leg, and there are other things he has me do. I would think my legs should be strong enough for at least short periods standing on the pedals - I can leg press 40 pounds more than I weigh, but of course that is something else. My body isn't moving at the time...

I will mention this to my trainer tomorrow, he is a quite avid mountain biker and am quite sure he will come up with new ways to torture me ;)

For some reason I seem to have an easier time trying things going downhill :) I haven't yet learned how to pedal standing up though...

check out the photo that was just posted on MTBR for your benefit.

[Catrin]

check out the photo that was just posted on MTBR for your benefit.

Just checked it out, and that was helpful. I think I need to focus on practicing this enough so that it feels more natural to stand on even pedals by the Clinic, will try and get my butt further off the saddle. It DID feel better once I put more weight on my feet.

At least on my Gunnar I am clipped into my new Frogs so I don't worry about my feet sliding off the pedals. I don't see clipless pedals on my lovely mountain goat for some time to come.

[laura*]

When I finally managed to get the weight on my pedals and not my hands I did feel much more stable

A further step: Relax your grip on the handlebar. Form a loop around the bar by touching the tip of your thumb to the tip(s) of your other fingers. At this point, you've encircled the handlebar, so it isn't going to go anywhere even though you're not really holding it. Now stand up on the pedals and try not to contact the handlebar with your hands/fingers. At this point you've really gone into a neutral position. This is useful in letting the bike roll over bumps however it wants to.

[laura*]

When I finally managed to get the weight on my pedals and not my hands I did feel much more stable - even if it did seem to take more leg strength than I realized to do it. I was able to relax my upper body a tad.

I've been thinking about this - your need for leg strength implies that you're not standing up far enough. You should lift up till just short of locking your knees.

[Catrin]

I've been thinking about this - your need for leg strength implies that you're not standing up far enough. You should lift up till just short of locking your knees.

I finally got here tonight on my Gunnar - it was anti-climatic actually ;) I do clip in on the Gunnar so that helps my confidence - and made certain to do it on FLAT road rather than downhill. After all, the first part of the Clinic will be on flat pavement... I found it works better for me to have my left foot forward and my dominant foot in the back - interesting. It did feel much better than just hovering over the saddle by a couple of inches.

At some point I need to get the Jamis out and practice the same thing on the actual mountain bike - even if it is "only" on pavement.

[Susan]

Now stand up on the pedals and try not to contact the handlebar with your hands/fingers. At this point you've really gone into a neutral position. This is useful in letting the bike roll over bumps however it wants to.

May sound stupid but - is this true? I always understood "neutral" position as evenly distributed weight on back and front wheel, with "relaxed" legs and arms. I guess the legs will always take the major part of the body weight, but I put some pressure on my arms and try not to be "too far back" or only on my feet.
Maybe I was doing it all wrong?

[Irulan]

It's not static. Some of what is being described are drills to go through so that you can get the feel of it.

Another tip. Don't think too much. Get a picture in your head of what you are trying to do, then do it. Splitting hairs will make one crazy at this point.

[Catrin]

It's not static. Some of what is being described are drills to go through so that you can get the feel of it.

Another tip. Don't think too much. Get a picture in your head of what you are trying to do, then do it. Splitting hairs will make one crazy at this point.

Yes, I am trying to not over-think this process. This is good practice for me so everything isn't brand new on the day of the clinic.

[limewave]

I practice a drill very similar to this, if not the same thing. I started doing it because I noticed how fatigued my legs would get during my first few mntn bike rides of the season--not on climbs, but when descending. Weird.

I practice descending over and over again, rotating which foot is in the front position--both at an equal level. I like being able to rotate which leg is in front, it gives me more positions on the trail and helps with overall fatigue. I also practice less pressure on the handlebars while doing this, as you described. I've seen a noticeable improvement.

[Catrin]

Still practicing this on the Gunnar - it isn't a mountain bike but since the frame is basically a rigid mountain frame it seems to make sense - and I can ride it on the road. (sure, I can the Jamis as well, but it is so SLOW on pavement!)

Tonight I think I actually got in the full position, was able to relax my hands and not hold on the bars with a death grip :) Of course it doesn't last too long - I just hold it until my speed starts dropping then I drop back to the saddle. Now it is time to practice with having either foot forward, Knotted's earlier advice on this is well taken.

At least I won't have any clipless falls on the Jamis at the Clinic - which is more than I can say for my ride tonight! I was over-thinking how I was going to stop and just forgot I was still attached to the bike - and it was too late when I realized it. Oh well, it isn't as if there aren't other slow motion falls in my future :o

Trying to talk myself out of the expense of purchasing the Lizard Skins for the Clinic, but I suppose that it would be stupid for a pure newbie to go to her first mtn bike clinic with BMX pedals with LOTS of pins and not have shin guards... It would be nice if my legs had a chance to heal from dog bites, pedal slap, and clipless fall ;)