was this an ethical oops?

[skhill]

This weekend I brought a pie to a potluck. Apple this time, yum. Here's the problem-- my pie crust is traditional, made with lard. There was one guy there who is an observant Jew. He's not technically fully kosher, 'cause in this area it's just too difficult, but he does the best he can in this very traif city. It wasn't until I saw him eating a slice of the pie that I thought I should have warned him about the lard. Didn't say anything, as he was already eating it. But I'm wondering, should I have?

I see pie, I assume there's lard invovled. But next time I take a pie, there will be a warning label, for sure...

[Crankin]

This has happened to me. Since he isn't totally observant (and there is an endless variety of what people actually do or don't do when they call themselves Kosher), I would let it pass. Really, I know people who are "Kosher inside the home," but go out for Chinese food and eat shrimp. It sounds like he would understand if you told him, but I would judge what to do by what you think his reaction will be.
It's thoughtful of you to think of this, though.

[TsPoet]

I agree, thoughtful of you, but I would not worry about it.
I'm Type 1 diabetic, my mom is Ciliac - we both know darned well what is in things! I wouldn't eat a "sugar free" pie in that circumstance, because, quite often, "sugar free" means honey. My point is, if he's observant, than he knows darned well what *could* be in the pie.
Next time, might be nice to have a little sign that says what's in it. There is a woman in my building at work who's ciliac (I have no idea who it is, though) and every work potluck we have there are now little signs on several of the dishes "no gluten, contains soy", for example. These little notes are nice and helpful.

[Irulan]

Unless it's a Jewish potluck, isn't it his responsibility to inquire as to what's in thing? The only time I would ever notify potluck attendees about ingredients is if something has nuts in it, which are potentially life threatening. I guess I just don't see where it's your business to worry about his religious requirements. If it was that important to him, I would think he would ask.

[OakLeaf]

I'm generally in agreement that someone with dietary restrictions - whether religious, medical or legal (i.e. meat doctored with clenbuterol ;)) - is responsible for knowing what's in their food. So skhill, I don't think you did anything wrong.

But I have to say that as someone who doesn't eat pork for purely ethical reasons - I'm perfectly well aware that any vegetable, salad, bean or beef dish is likely to be po'kified - it would never occur to me to ask about pie. I didn't even know you could buy lard in consumer quantities any more. I knew it's a theoretical possibility, but I've never known anyone who's made pie crust with lard - butter, crisco or vegetable oil is all I've seen in the last 35+ years.

If you're in a farm community and getting your lard right from the farmer like everyone else does ... then all bets are off. :)

[Velocivixen]

If he, for example, had a severe food allergy, he would have certainly asked what the ingredients were. you are not responsible for what people freely choose to put into their mouths.

[ny biker]

I had no idea that lard is an ingredient in pie crusts.

BTW, nuts are not the only potentially life-threatening allergen in food. For some in my family, bananas and avocados are potentially life-threatening. And then there's shellfish, which is potentially life-threatening to many people.

[Becky]

I'm Type 1 diabetic, my mom is Ciliac - we both know darned well what is in things! I wouldn't eat a "sugar free" pie in that circumstance, because, quite often, "sugar free" means honey. My point is, if he's observant, than he knows darned well what *could* be in the pie.
Next time, might be nice to have a little sign that says what's in it. There is a woman in my building at work who's ciliac (I have no idea who it is, though) and every work potluck we have there are now little signs on several of the dishes "no gluten, contains soy", for example. These little notes are nice and helpful.

On the flip side, ever eat something that you thought was sugar-sweetened, and found out that it was really sugar-free? :eek: *raises hand sheepishly* I don't care to do that again!

I agree about the little notes. I'm not afraid to ask, but it's nice when I don't have to.

[Irulan]

I had no idea that lard is an ingredient in pie crusts.

BTW, nuts are not the only potentially life-threatening allergen in food. For some in my family, bananas and avocados are potentially life-threatening. And then there's shellfish, which is potentially life-threatening to many people.

It isn't in all. You can make an oil based pie crust, it's just not as flaky.

[Irulan]

I had no idea that lard is an ingredient in pie crusts.

BTW, nuts are not the only potentially life-threatening allergen in food. For some in my family, bananas and avocados are potentially life-threatening. And then there's shellfish, which is potentially life-threatening to many people.

OK sure but let's assume that adults know how to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies... ask first then eat?

[PamNY]

No, not an oops. It's his responsibility to ask if he wants to be very careful. I don't eat meat, and I always ask (or don't eat the food).

I make pie a lot, and wouldn't have thought of lard in the crust. I've never used it, and don't know anyone who does.

Nice of you to think about it, though.

[ny biker]

OK sure but let's assume that adults know how to take responsibility for what they put into their bodies... ask first then eat?

Actually the easiest thing is to eat a full meal at home on the assumption that something on the buffet table will kill you. Otherwise you become the whiny killjoy who has to ask everyone about the ingredients in the dish they brought.

[zoom-zoom]

I didn't even know you could buy lard in consumer quantities any more. I knew it's a theoretical possibility, but I've never known anyone who's made pie crust with lard - butter, crisco or vegetable oil is all I've seen in the last 35+ years.

Really? Stores around here all carry lard in buckets, just like this:
http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/05/01/00/50/0005010050438_500X500.jpg

That image is from Wal-Mart's site, so it's not small, rural stores carrying it, but big, urban/suburban megamarts. I know a lot of folks who make amazing pies with real lard. It's about the only type of pie crust that I don't turn my nose up at.

[Kerry1976]

Darn it, will try again. Site crashed when I put my post up. I'll write this faster! :)

My boss is Jewish and takes responsibility for what he eats. If he is at a potluck especially, he views it as his job to make correct choices. As a university president, he deals with this stuff on a near-daily basis.

We do tease him though that we appreciate him having brought beef hotdogs to our university (food service serves them at picnics, etc. instead of pork dogs). Fortunately, our next President doesn't like pork so I think we get to keep our beef hotdogs! :)

[Blueberry]

I'm with Oakleaf - I don't eat pork products for ethical reasons.

I live in the south, but wouldn't have thought to ask about a pie crust. I also would not have been at all upset at the person who brought it. It's ethics not religion for me - but it really wouldn't bother me.

It sucks for people who have severe food allergies. But - I couldn't want someone who is, for example, peanut allergic to eat anything I've cooked. Why? DH and I eat peanut butter and peanuts. There could be trace particles on anything out of my kitchen potentially. I don't know of any food that is completely safe for all people (and certainly not enough of them to fill a buffet table).

[PamNY]

Otherwise you become the whiny killjoy who has to ask everyone about the ingredients in the dish they brought.

It is entirely possible to make discreet inquiries without being either whiny or a killjoy. I do it all the time.

[grey]

It is entirely possible to make discreet inquiries without being either whiny or a killjoy. I do it all the time.

Usually I have other friends who are also vegetarian, and so we help each other find out which dishes are meatless - one of us will ask about one dish, then discreetly tell the rest of us -- or we just go through the line as a group. :D

[ny biker]

Honestly, I know too many people who know I have food allergies, but don't hesitate to refer to people with food allergies as "freaks" in conversation with me. They're also irritated by things like having to bring fruit instead of cake to their kid's soccer games because one of the teammates can't have anything with gluten. As if the kid was making it up just to deprive his friends of some cake.

So if I start asking at a buffet about ingredients, I expect to run into people who are annoyed by it. Even if they're polite to my face, they're thinking I'm a PITA.

I do think someone with dietary restrictions needs to take responsibility as much as possible. It's just easier to assume there will be nothing you can have on the buffet table, and provide your own food.

[Geonz]

It is entirely possible to make discreet inquiries without being either whiny or a killjoy. I do it all the time.

(It's also possible to be a whiny killjoy. I have absolutely no issues with asking what's in something -- but when it includes the litany of symptoms and aggravations followed by all the things you really wish you could have and are miserable without and the other aches and pains that are bothering you today, I have to tune out...)

[zoom-zoom]

They're also irritated by things like having to bring fruit instead of cake to their kid's soccer games because one of the teammates can't have anything with gluten. As if the kid was making it up just to deprive his friends of some cake.

Don't even get me started on this...when I was a kid I played in a Summer soccer league for years. We had lemonade or Gatorade during the game and maybe a treat if it was a player's birthday, but this was it.

Nowadays EVERY friggin' game or practice seems to require sugary drinks, snacks, crackers, cheese sticks...and we wonder why the # of obese kids in the US is so high--this does not help.

A few years back my son played soccer in a Spring league. People looked at us like we had 3 heads when we brought Goldfish crackers, baby carrots, and water. The dumb thing was that it was the parents who seemed put-off by it, not the kids. At Halloween we give out healthier snacks, too...and kids seem to really like getting something that isn't pure sugar.

[fallstoclimb]

When it's a case of "voluntary" dietary restrictions and not health-related restrictions, I think if someone has already started to eat something then what they don't know can't hurt them. I'm a vegetarian, and while I'd appreciate a heads up from a friend before I accidentally ate a meat product, if I've already decided something is likely meat-free and started eating it I'd rather not find out later and feel guilty/gross about it! Ignorance is bliss.

(again, obviously not true when it's a health issue)

[TsPoet]

They're also irritated by things like having to bring fruit instead of cake to their kid's soccer games because one of the teammates can't have anything with gluten. As if the kid was making it up just to deprive his friends of some cake.
.

I would be, too. I'm 44 years old. I've been diabetic since I was 12. It's my responsibility, not yours! If you want to bring carrots for me, thanks, if not, bring cake or whatever you want!
If I were allergic to peanuts - my responsibility, not yours... I'm tired of people "having to" do anything for anyone else. The only thing you are required to do, IMHO, is not do anything to actively hurt me (I'd be a little hacked off if you shot me with a gun, for example).
This responsibility for other people's diets is new and should never have started.
Having said that, I have, on more than one occasion, complained about perfume at the work place, i can't get rid of the stinking stuff! if you can't avoid it, then you have a right to expect folks to not bring it - if you can avoid it, then do so of your own accord.

[PamNY]

(It's also possible to be a whiny killjoy. I have absolutely no issues with asking what's in something -- but when it includes the litany of symptoms and aggravations followed by all the things you really wish you could have and are miserable without and the other aches and pains that are bothering you today, I have to tune out...)

Oh that's true. Both things can happen. My point was simply, as I said, that it's possible to be discreet and polite. I have two friends with food allergies. One handles her situation so gracefully that I've heard people compliment her; the other, well, a different story altogether.

And ironically, the one who is a PITA is completely inconsiderate of other peoples' special needs, and this includes people who have knocked themselves out catering to her endless needs.

I was honestly surprised by what NY Biker said she has encountered. We deal with this issue a lot and have for years, and I've never heard anything along those lines.

[ny biker]

Don't even get me started on this...when I was a kid I played in a Summer soccer league for years. We had lemonade or Gatorade during the game and maybe a treat if it was a player's birthday, but this was it.

Nowadays EVERY friggin' game or practice seems to require sugary drinks, snacks, crackers, cheese sticks...and we wonder why the # of obese kids in the US is so high--this does not help.

A few years back my son played soccer in a Spring league. People looked at us like we had 3 heads when we brought Goldfish crackers, baby carrots, and water. The dumb thing was that it was the parents who seemed put-off by it, not the kids. At Halloween we give out healthier snacks, too...and kids seem to really like getting something that isn't pure sugar.

Yeah, the parents I know who seem angry at kids with food allergies don't seem to notice (or care?) that their own kids are overweight. My advice regarding having to bring fruit to the soccer game was to just bring a ton of grapes and serve them with a big smile -- set a positive tone and hungry kids will just be happy to have something to snack on after all that running around.

But anyway. It's interesting how complicated food can be sometimes, in terms of emotions. And how one person's delicious is another person's yuck.

I hope the man enjoyed the pie.

[ny biker]

I would be, too. I'm 44 years old. I've been diabetic since I was 12. It's my responsibility, not yours! If you want to bring carrots for me, thanks, if not, bring cake or whatever you want!
If I were allergic to peanuts - my responsibility, not yours... I'm tired of people "having to" do anything for anyone else. The only thing you are required to do, IMHO, is not do anything to actively hurt me (I'd be a little hacked off if you shot me with a gun, for example).
This responsibility for other people's diets is new and should never have started.
Having said that, I have, on more than one occasion, complained about perfume at the work place, i can't get rid of the stinking stuff! if you can't avoid it, then you have a right to expect folks to not bring it - if you can avoid it, then do so of your own accord.


Well, when the idea is for the parents to take turns providing snacks for the entire group, it's not really fair to bring something that they know everyone can't enjoy. Especially when the group is a bunch of 5 year olds. Now, they can accommodate everyone by bringing some cake and some fruit, for example, so I think there's room to change the rules a bit. And if it was a potluck, it would not be an issue because the parents of the kid with the restricted diet could make sure there was something for their own offspring to eat. But I really think it's pretty heartless to knowingly bring food that all but one of the children can eat.

[TrekTheKaty]

I can't have wheat/gluten. You pretty much have to be a cook and be aware of ingredients of most dishes. If I'm not sure, I ask or skip it altogether. When attending potlucks with dietary restrictions, the rule is to eat beforehand and eat some of your own dish before it becomes cross contaminated.

And yes--the best pie crusts are made from lard. I remember making pie crusts that way as a child. It's white (not dyed yellow like margarine) and may actually be healthier that man-made substitutes--depending on your health stance.

[TrekTheKaty]

I was honestly surprised by what NY Biker said she has encountered. We deal with this issue a lot and have for years, and I've never heard anything along those lines.

I agree with NY Biker. Many assume my avoidance of wheat is by choice and try to talk me out of it. I choose NOT to discuss the digestive side effects with perfect strangers. And I'll clarify my earlier comment--I usually don't bother to ask, even in a restaurant. I get two responses: "I'm sure it's fine" or they pretty much refuse to serve me anything. Many strict celiacs don't EVER eat outside their own home. They've obviously had a serious reaction and don't want to risk it ever again.

Kids are different. It is a huge emotional issue for a child to be excluded from the group. However, some well adjusted families use the opportunity to teach the children how to handle these situations on their own--because they'll have to when they get older. There are many gluten-free baked goods that my husband enjoys with me. However, some fruit never hurt anyone!

[PinkBike]

Really? Stores around here all carry lard in buckets, just like this:
http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/05/01/00/50/0005010050438_500X500.jpg

That image is from Wal-Mart's site, so it's not small, rural stores carrying it, but big, urban/suburban megamarts. I know a lot of folks who make amazing pies with real lard. It's about the only type of pie crust that I don't turn my nose up at.

great. i just gained 3 lbs looking at the picture