"Barefoot" Running

[extra-vert]

So who here is doing the barefoot running thing? Any thoughts; shoe model recommendations etc??:confused:

[Biciclista]

barefoot? doesn't that mean no shoes?

[Savra]

I imagine by barefoot running you mean with the Five Finger type shoes. I have a pair but haven't run in them. Only walked. I like them. Very comfortable.

[extra-vert]

Barefoot is (technically) without shoes, you are right. :D But for those wanting the "barefoot" experience, more and more running shoe makers are coming up with "barefoot" shoes, just enough coverage to protect your feet from the road I guess. Anyway, because I am reading Chirunning by Danny Dreyer right now, I cross referenced his name with barefoot running and got his opinion on the subject on his blog.

http://www.chirunning.com/community/blog-entry/should-i-run-barefoot-or-not/

[jessmarimba]

I generally run in New Balance MT101s - minimalist trail shoes (?). I've done a few runs in my fivefingers but every time I do I end up with one grain of sand in them that creates a quarter-sized blister. Until I take them off and find the blister the runs are very fun and carefree :)

[TsPoet]

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=31282&highlight=vibrams

vibrams rock.
http://birthdayshoes.com/

[colby]

I wear FiveFingers. I tried the Bikila, they are too tight across the top of my feet and for some reason make my toes cramp (too stiff?). I wear KSOs and Flows for running, Sprints for short triathlons where transition time counts more, and Classics for everyday (though often I end up wearing whatever is handy). I have ran probably 1500-2000 miles since last putting on regular running shoes (I don't tally my miles very closely).

I have looked at the new New Balance model (the very new one, can't think of the name, I've seen it in a few Outside or Runner's World magazines now), but they are too tight across the toebox for my wide feet. I'm interested to see the Merrell Trail Glove. I've seen good reviews of the Saucony minimal shoes, too, and apparently they are coming out with more.

More important than the shoe is the technique, you have to ease into it, and learn to run with a midfoot/forefoot strike or it will hurt. ;) The chi running technique definitely fits in well with this. I had a hard time figuring that stuff out until I took off my shoes (and/or wore FiveFingers).

It's not for everyone, but it's done a lot for me.

[OakLeaf]

As many people have pointed out in the other thread, it doesn't matter how minimal the shoe, if it's a shoe, it will affect your body mechanics, and it's not barefoot. That said ...

Has anyone tried the new Inov-8 Evoskins yet? They have much longer toes than VFFs and look like they might actually fit me.

I almost taught my aerobics class in my VFFs last night ... decided against it since it was my first class after several months, I felt really rusty and didn't want to change too much. But even having taught the class with my regular shoes, I'm noticing this morning that my Achilles and calves aren't bothering me as they have in the past, and I totally attribute that to all the foot work I've done over the winter. :)

From my experience, I'd say that if you have very rigid feet as a result of wearing orthotics for years, it may take more than just easing into barefoot - I've been doing a lot of massage, self myofascial release and yoga, going barefoot around the house more, and paying attention to my feet pretty much ANY time I'm on them, trying to get four corners down and the arches lifted. Just a few weeks ago I've been able to see my TMT joints actually move for the first time I can remember in my 51 years. It's been slow, hard work, and I'm nowhere near being able to run barefoot yet, but it's really, really paying off in terms of my Achilles, hips and spine.

[sjane]

I'm interested to see the Merrell Trail Glove.

I wear Pace Gloves and love them.

[Dogmama]

I have looked at the new New Balance model (the very new one, can't think of the name, I've seen it in a few Outside or Runner's World magazines now), but they are too tight across the toebox for my wide feet. I'm interested to see the Merrell Trail Glove. I've seen good reviews of the Saucony minimal shoes, too, and apparently they are coming out with more.



Road Runner is having a good sale on the Saucony Kinveras. They are under the endangered shoe list. Apparently, Saucony came out with a new Kinvera so the older ones are on sale for $67. I ordered a pair. I have wide duck feet too and Saucony's always fit me.

[jessmarimba]

Colby, the merrells will probably do much better on you. They are overall way too wide on me, while I love the feel of the new model of those new balances (fit like a glove, which is really rare for me).

[extra-vert]

Wow, how funny, I tried on the new balance new ones and they seemed to look rather wide too me. Anyway, I am brand new to running so I have yet to develop any technique whatsoever. i plan to start by going barefoot on the beach. I am reading, (as i mentioned) Chirunning, so I hope this helps me develop proper form from the beginning - we'll see, LOL. I'll have to check out those other brands. I have tried the Merrill Pace - very nice!

[Susan]

I love to run barefoot but couldn't find a route where I can do it easily so far. I like to run trails in the wood, and those that I know are sometimes small sharp gravel or covered with leaves so that you can't see the ground. I don't like to go and run on asphalt just to be safe running barefoot.

I bought the Vivo Barefoot Lucys to run in. I like that they have such a wide toe box (because I have duck feet). They are quite sturdy and look nice.
However for me the feel in any kind of (barefoot) shoes doesn't even come close to really running barefoot, this happy light feeling is just missing.

I think I haven't found the best for me in terms of running shoes. Ordinary running shoes have such a big heel/thick sole and so don't feel safe offroads and often no room for my toes. The Vivo barefoots are ok offroads and fit me nicely but make running really harder on my feet on asphalt (even when watching my technique, but you don't get feedback from your sole like when really running barefoot). I guess a shoe with just a little padding but not too thick sole and no built up heel would be the best for me.

[KnottedYet]

I guess a shoe with just a little padding but not too thick sole and no built up heel would be the best for me.

Saucony Kinvara might be worth a try.

I like to run barefoot (that means NO SHOES... NAKED FEET*) on dirt, but was having trouble finding a shoe that worked well for me on unnatural man-made surfaces. I ran in Chaco sandals for a long time, then got a pair of Kinvaras and I'm very happy with them.

*don't get me started on the "barefoot shoe" B.S. If it's on your feet, you're not barefoot. And the "barefoot" and "minimalist" shoes are not revolutionary, they are simply a return to the shoes we ALL wore 30 years ago. We all had soft heel counters and thinner soles and less heel-forefoot drop back then, and many of us STILL got injured and had sucky running form. Everyone should just wear whatever shoes work for them and try not to join a religion over it. /rant

[Susan]

Knotted, do you have nice dirt trails where you can actually see the ground or without having to cross fire roads with gravel? Or do you risk stepping onto something that you can't see? I'm asking because I am still fighting with myself if I should just risk stepping onto glass or sth. (and hope it just won't happen) because I really like going barefoot.
I did some barefoot running on asphalt when I started running, but since I discovered the dirt trails near my home I never wanted to go back to the streets ;)

Something about my feet seems just not to be made for shoes. Maybe because as a child I was going barefoot a lot. My toes don't have space in shoes and I get blisters just about everywhere. But the worst is that I sprain my ankle easily, and it seems to me that the bigger the heel the more often it happens.

Thanks for the shoe tips. Actually the Merrell shoes appeal to me because of the wide toebox and grippy sole.

[KnottedYet]

I stop and walk across gravelly bits or iffy spots. Pebbles and bits in the trail can be a bit startling, but your foot will cup around them a little and your stride will adapt to get you off the pebble (less push-off with the toe if the pebble is under the ball of your foot, for example). Usually I can see what I'm running on. If I can't see it, it's probably under enough dirt that it's not likely to hurt me much.

I'm running on packed duff and dirt for the most part (under cedar and fir trees mostly) Have squished more than a few slugs between my toes. They pop. It's kind of icky. Some parts are reclaimed rail bed, those tend to be harder and have more gravelly personalities so I'm slower there.

Snow is just too cold for me to run far. Out the door, around the house, and back inside! I do like running on fresh snow, though. Briefly. ;)

Every year I have a full check with a dermatologist, and he's always surprised by the bottoms of my feet (which are quite lovely and healthy and hard). Like you, I was barefoot most of the time I was a kid. I also have a hard time finding shoes wide enough at the toes.

[GLC1968]

Has anyone tried the Altra line? Totally new, zero drop, supposedly a very wide toe box. A local store carries them but I haven't made it down there since they arrived. Might be a good option for some:

http://altrarunning.com/

Personally, I'm making due with the Evo II from VivoBarefoot for now even though they aren't truly wide enough for me. Once the roads dry up a bit, I'm going to transition back to fully barefoot (even on pavement). My soles are not very tough at the moment though, so it'll take awhile. I also like using the huaraches on occasion for sole protection but plenty of room to wiggle my toes (in dry weather).

http://www.invisibleshoe.com/

[Jolt]

Has anyone tried the new Inov-8 Evoskins yet? They have much longer toes than VFFs and look like they might actually fit me.


I hadn't heard about those until this thread...given your comment I probably won't try them since I have wicked short toes that don't even go to the ends of the VFFs. They should be good for some people who don't fit into VFFs though.

[MCAP]

I run in VFF Bikila LS and love them. I've only been running in them for about a month or so. Before that I tried switching to a more minimalist style by running in old school cross country flats. They were wonderful and (with research on form and totally restyling my running) I was able to go from extreme pain after 1/4 mile to now comfortably running 6 miles. I'm going to keep building my base up now.

I like doing drills totally barefoot in grass, but I don't do regular runs totally barefoot. I just don't want to.

I did have to stretch the pinkie toe pocket on my shoes to make them fit correctly and now they fit like a dream. I'll be wearing them in my triathlon on the 22nd. It's amazing to me that I can finally run without pain!!

[nscrbug]

I'm curious if anyone here with hammertoes has been able to successfully wear VFF? I have h-toes, and bought a pair of Bikilas last year. I started out mainly just wearing them on the treadmill at the gym, slowly adding some short jogs. But after a month of wearing them, I found that my little toes (4th & 5th) didn't want to stay in the toe pockets securely. I could feel them slipping out during my runs, and would often have to stop and reposition them back into the pockets. I ultimately wound up selling them to someone on this forum. But I miss wearing them and have considered giving them another shot. I was thinking of trying a different style - the Komodo Sport, but I'm not sure if I'll end up having the same exact issue. Any thoughts or comments?

Linda

[OakLeaf]

I'm curious if anyone here with hammertoes has been able to successfully wear VFF? I have h-toes, and bought a pair of Bikilas last year. I started out mainly just wearing them on the treadmill at the gym, slowly adding some short jogs. But after a month of wearing them, I found that my little toes (4th & 5th) didn't want to stay in the toe pockets securely. I could feel them slipping out during my runs, and would often have to stop and reposition them back into the pockets. I ultimately wound up selling them to someone on this forum. But I miss wearing them and have considered giving them another shot. I was thinking of trying a different style - the Komodo Sport, but I'm not sure if I'll end up having the same exact issue. Any thoughts or comments?

Linda

You might take a look at the Fila shoes. I haven't seen them IRL and honestly the reviews aren't that great, but they have a single pocket for the 4th and 5th toes. That's exactly why I wouldn't even try them ... but maybe they might work for you.

I visited the LRS the other day and asked about the Inov-8 Evo Skins. The sales guy went to the back to ask the shoe buyer, who came out with a big rant about how they'd sent him a pair to try and they were awful, he'd never consider carrying them, Inov-8 had really jumped the shark with this one, and oh BTW if I wanted his sample pair I could have them. :cool:

I can definitely see where he's coming from with these - they're really so minimal that you wouldn't want to run in them any place where you wouldn't run completely barefoot, and in that case, why not just run barefoot and avoid problems with sweating and blistering? Since I was curious about them for hiking and hanging around, not for running in, I'm going to give them a try. The longer toes definitely fit me, and although there's not enough adjustment in the straps for my low insteps, I'm pretty sure I can modify them, do without them, or just substitute laces for the straps.

But looky what I did try on! The Altra Intuition (http://shop.altrarunning.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_-1_15151_18952_69007_177103). Zero heel-to-toe drop, and look at that square toe box! Oooooh, aaaaah. Unfortunately they were out of stock in the sizes most likely to fit me, but they're expecting some more next week. I'm a little concerned about the overlay at my problematic 5th MTP joint, but wondering whether that's any worse than smacking my heels every step the way I do with the high heeled Nikes I'm running in now. Just running around the store in a pair of Altra Instinct shoes (the men's version of the Intuition) felt soooo nice - zero drop, but a little bit of cushion under my midfeet.

I'm wondering too whether I could just pull the overlay off at that one point. I do plan to ask them at the LRS when I go back to try them on, but any shoe experts here have an opinion on that?

[Dogmama]

I bought some Saucony Kinveras & liked them so much I bought a second pair. They are light as a feather & remind me of bedroom slippers because the material is soft & very pliable. I've only used them on the dreadmill because I know there will be a big learning curve for my feet & legs. So far, they are extremely comfortable and really facilitate landing on the ball of your foot. I can feel that my calves are working and my entire body flexes more to absorb the landings. Highly recommended if you have a Saucony foot.

[jessmarimba]

I just bought the Kinvaras, too...I'm so used to my NB WT101s that these seem like a huge amount of shoe to me. But I'm getting to some pretty long runs and needed a little more squish for when I get tired and my form starts to suck. And man are these shoes ugly. Oh my goodness.

I have my eye on the NB minimus shoes...WT10 or whatever number they just gave them.

[KnottedYet]

The Kinvarra comes in so many colors. I've got the solid black ones, which I thought looked much nicer than some of the multi-color schemes.

I do have to wonder what kind of liquor is kept in the design office of the folks who choose shoe colors.... (and can I have some?) ;)

Dogmama, I'm glad to hear they are good for fore-foot strikers. I'm a heel-striker through and through and love them, but was hoping someone would pipe up on their fore-foot striking experience.

[OakLeaf]

I did try on a pair of the Kinvaras when I was at the LRS. Just as I thought I remembered, a pointed toe box that crammed all my toes together. Oh well. I'm really looking forward to trying on the Intuition.

[KnottedYet]

I did try on a pair of the Kinvaras when I was at the LRS. Just as I thought I remembered, a pointed toe box that crammed all my toes together. Oh well. I'm really looking forward to trying on the Intuition.

That link to the Altra Intuition you gave made me drool, and the shoe looks great in the toe box. Please, please, please post a review after you try them! I've got some folks who I think would really benefit from the Intuition's toe box.

I'd also be interested in what you think of the outsole. I have a bit of concern that around here (where we have patches of a thin layer of slippery mud on all the trails just about year-round, and where algae can grow on the sidewalks) the smoother outsole would be a bit slick.

I hope you get a pair, cuz I wanna know!

[GLC1968]

Here are a couple of blog posts by a guy who tried the Altra Instinct (mens style). He lives in the PNW as well, and seems to really like them. He didn't mention slipping in them at all though he does stick to using his Merrell Trail Gloves for trail running.

http://welcome-to-briders-place.blogspot.com/2011/04/altra-instinct-initial-impressions-and.html

http://welcome-to-briders-place.blogspot.com/2011/04/altra-instinct-and-merrel-trail-glove.html

Oak - I'll be really curious to see what you have to say about them as the biggest shortcoming of my Evo's are the way the big toe space curves (instead of straight out like on my other Vivo Barefoot shoes).

[colby]

But looky what I did try on! The Altra Intuition (http://shop.altrarunning.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_-1_15151_18952_69007_177103). Zero heel-to-toe drop, and look at that square toe box! Oooooh, aaaaah. Unfortunately they were out of stock in the sizes most likely to fit me, but they're expecting some more next week. I'm a little concerned about the overlay at my problematic 5th MTP joint, but wondering whether that's any worse than smacking my heels every step the way I do with the high heeled Nikes I'm running in now. Just running around the store in a pair of Altra Instinct shoes (the men's version of the Intuition) felt soooo nice - zero drop, but a little bit of cushion under my midfeet.

Nice and foot shaped! Funny how all these shoes look like old school shoes. ;)

The New Balance trail shoes have a plastic overlay on the shoe that takes a fairly flexible shoe and makes it less comfortable. Maybe there's a stability or longevity reason, but I wish they could use something softer.

[jessmarimba]

Which ones are you talking about, Colby? The WT101? I'd imagine it's because the shoe is so thin in the forefoot that you couldn't run rocky trails without it. They'd fall apart. After wearing mine for about 5 months (~200 miles?) they feel pretty flexible. But as I have to wear insoles in them to make them fit, I can't really tell you how the shoe itself really feels.

The NB WR10 (the new minimal road shoe), to me, seems pretty similar to the Altra Intuition.

I'm a little frustrated b/c I haven't found a minimal shoe yet that I don't have to add insoles to just to take up room. Need to take care of my tendonitis so I can get some distance in my vibrams.

[OakLeaf]

The NB toe box is much pointier than the Altra's.

FWIW, Altra is supposed to be coming out with a more trail-oriented shoe this summer. The model name will be Lone Peak in both men's and women's. The shape looks the same as the Instinct/Intuition, but with a more deeply lugged sole and more overlays.

I'll post a review whenever I get my feet into the Intuition. I'm pretty much set on giving them a try.

[jessmarimba]

Not the shoe I was talking about, but I wouldn't notice the toe box anyway - both too wide on me :)

I was thinking this one: http://www.newbalance.ca/Product/WR10OG

[indigoiis]

Road Runner is having a good sale on the Saucony Kinveras. They are under the endangered shoe list. Apparently, Saucony came out with a new Kinvera so the older ones are on sale for $67. I ordered a pair. I have wide duck feet too and Saucony's always fit me.

I also have duck feet and short toes. I like my VFFs but on trails I ALWAYS stub a toe, and it hurts like hell. On road they are nice, but I haven't done over 5 miles in them.

I also just bought a pair of Kinveras. They are really nice and light, nice footbed, wide in the front - I think I'm gonna like em!

[colby]

Which ones are you talking about, Colby? The WT101? I'd imagine it's because the shoe is so thin in the forefoot that you couldn't run rocky trails without it. They'd fall apart. After wearing mine for about 5 months (~200 miles?) they feel pretty flexible. But as I have to wear insoles in them to make them fit, I can't really tell you how the shoe itself really feels.

The NB WR10 (the new minimal road shoe), to me, seems pretty similar to the Altra Intuition.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking - the extra reinforcement IS structural.

I am probably going to get some knobby vibrams for running trails, and to do the dirty dash in August. They may not help a huge amount in that quantity of mud, but the regular vibrams will definitely not help in mud ;)

Related, Kayak Shed has 20% off Merrell "Barefoot" shoes right now, http://www.kayakshed.com

[jessmarimba]

What kind of mud? With stickier mud, the knobbier the shoe, the more mud you carry with you, the heavier your shoes get through the race. Just something to think about :p

[OakLeaf]

Interesting and pretty sensible article (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/06/barefoot-running-shoes-and-born-to-run.html) about transitioning to barefoot or minimal shoes.

I'm still waiting to try those Intuitions ... backordered 'til they don't know when, it being a really small company whose product has taken off like wildfire. I promise a review whenever I get them!

[sundial]

Speaking of going barefoot, has anyone watched Dual Survivor on the Discovery Channel? Cody (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/dual-survival/bios/) walks barefooted everywhere, whether it's in the Amazon jungle, a Louisiana marsh filled with snakes, or on a remote Pacific island.