I must be built funny.

[Owlie]

I checked out bikes on a whim back in March when I was still in hiding. Apparently my legs require a different bike size than my torso. The only possible exception to this was the Trek Lexa, which was a wash as to whether I needed the 54 or a 56. I tried out a Dolce, which my back and shoulders absolutely loved, but I'm not sure how well my knees would get on with it unless I took it out for a long ride. The guy at the shop thought I'd need a 57cm until he let me try out the 54(?) cm they had. OOPS. (FYI, the effective top tube on the 57cm is longer than that on my too-long current bike.)

Sigh. I might have to go custom, but that won't be an option for a long, long time. Thoughts?

[emily_in_nc]

You don't say whether you're a long-legged, short-torso'd type or the opposite. If the former, try WSD frames; the latter, mens/unisex frames. Some people do have to go custom, but the majority of folks of your height should be able to fit a stock frame, with possible changes in stem, seatpost, handlebars to dial in the fit. I'd bet that you can fit a stock frame unless your proportions are extremely unusual.

[Biciclista]

what emily said

the fact is, most bikes are not made to fit most women well.

[ultraviolet]

Without information about what your proportions are, I don't think anyone can give you any advice or ideas.

For example: I seem to be a difficult fit because I have proportionally short legs and long torso, which most people would call lucky because that's what "unisex" frames are designed for, BUT...I have short arms, tiny hands and low-ish flexibility. In the end, what I've found is that I need a taller headtube than what's found on many road bikes, and I invariably end up having to put a short/shallow bar on most of my bikes along with short reach, or reach adjustable, brifters/levers. The stock road bike geometries that work best for me are LeMond (now defunct), Gary Fisher, Specialized Roubaix, and the Cervelo RS. I can make others work--my "race" bike is a BMC but I've left plenty of steerer on the fork and use a stem with a good bit of rise, and I have a couple of older steel bikes that I need to use taller stems on as well--but that's the short list of the bikes that are closest to "ideal" for me.

[emily_in_nc]

I'm wondering if since you're tall you didn't try WSD frames? Many folks think they are only for us shorties, but that's not true. They are made for folks with long legs and short torsos, no matter what their height -- or gender, actually; it's just that women are more likely to have this body proportion.

[indysteel]

Out of curiosity, what knee issue do you think you might have with the
Dolce? How would you otherwise describe your proportions?

[OakLeaf]

I'm also wondering what the issue with your knees might be.

It's true that only the smallest complete bikes come with cranks shorter than 170mm, but that's a crank swap, not a frame issue (and it's a swap I had to do on my 50cm C'dale).

If you're having trouble finding a frame with a short enough TT, but seat-wise you can fit on a larger frame, consider just buying a smaller frame and an uncut fork. Then you can set the handlebars and seat where you want them in relation to each other. Not the most inexpensive thing in the world but a whole lot cheaper than a custom frame!

If you're more specific about your proportions I bet there's someone here who can suggest a frame for you.

[Owlie]

Muirenn, I'm a hair shorter than you (5'6-3/4"), and I have the same problem you do. I need a pretty short top tube, and even some WSD bikes are too long.
My Giant is a 50cm/M, but they run big, by the looks of it--and the Avail's geometry isn't terribly different from the Defy.

My knees weren't terribly happy with the test rides, but that may well simply be because the seatpost was adjusted to "eh, close enough" and I have crappy knee ligaments. If it were properly adjusted (ie, when I'm actually serious about buying), it might well be a different story. It felt good otherwise (even better than the Treks), so I'm still keeping it on my "list"

I did in fact try out a Quest Femme (lovely bike), but I'd need a 54, and that's something that the shop doesn't stock and wouldn't until I'm serious about buying. I had the same problem with trying out a Cannondale.

[indysteel]

In looking at the geometry of the bikes you're looking at and comparing them (in the sizes the shops have had you try) to your Giant Avail, I'm sort of perplexed. The Giant's ETT is 540, which does seem a bit long to me for a 50 cm bike. But the Trek Lexa in both the 54 and 56 have the same or even longer top tubes than that, and the ETT of the Specialized Dolce in a 54 is only a few millimeters shorter than your Avail.

If you're too stretched out on a bike with a 540 ETT, then logic suggests to me that you should try smaller frames than the ones you've tested thus far.
Of course, it bears stating that there's more to fit than just reach. You should also keep a close eye on each bike's seat tube angle, because that may ultimately impact your reach and/or whether you can get your knees where the need to be in relation to your pedals.

If it were me, I'd seek out a shop that knows something about fit and does more than merely eye ball you. I'm not sure what's available in your area, but once you're back in Cincy--if you aren't already--you might consider a visit to Nebo Ridge on the north side of Indy. It truly might be worth your while to work with a decent fitter, and Nebo has one.

[Owlie]

The guy at the Trek shop did say that while I looked more comfortable on the 56, he thought it might be because I'm used to being stretched out.

The seat tube angles on each are different (73.7 and 73.4 for the Treks, 74 for the Dolce and 73.5 for the Giant), and if I remember correctly, I think the stock stem on the Dolce is shorter than the stock stem on my Avail, so that may have something to do with it. If anyone's got a link explaining geometry as it relates to fit, that would be awesome. I'm interested in learning more about frame geometry as a whole, and I think that's a good practical starting point. :)

As I said, I'm in no position to buy just yet, and they'd probably take a little more care with the fit when I show up and am serious about buying. I'll see what's available in the area with regard to fitters (thanks for the tip, Indy!).

[indysteel]

I can't provide a link to it at the moment because I'm on my Blackberry, but you might look at Peter White's website. He has a discussion on bike fit that might be helpful. Just Google his name and "bike fit."

But looking at your existing bike's geometry is a good place to start to determine what does and doesn't work for you. You mentioned feeling too stretched out on it, but have you ever worked with a fitter to tweak its set up? Even if you're determined to get a new bike, it's far easier to make informed decisions if you work first with what you already own as a frame of reference.

[OakLeaf]

Never been there, but HubBub in the Cleveland area has a rep for doing good fittings.

[Owlie]

I've heard of the shop...doesn't help because I'm moving back to Cincy. :D

So...It turns out that the Dolce I tried out was a 51 (oops). That would explain why the top tube felt better, but that might be pushing the "small" end, considering that my femurs probably need a 54 or 57. :rolleyes:

[indysteel]

I've heard of the shop...doesn't help because I'm moving back to Cincy. :D

So...It turns out that the Dolce I tried out was a 51 (oops). That would explain why the top tube felt better, but that might be pushing the "small" end, considering that my femurs probably need a 54 or 57. :rolleyes:

Sometime tells me that you do not need a 57. Heck, my husband is 6'2 and rides a 59-60. I am oddly proportioned, too. I have really short legs, but proportionally long femurs. I'm also long waisted with regular length arms. I'm a nut, basically. I'm 5'4 and more or less ride bikes in the 48-50 cm range. My main road bike--a 50 cm WSD Bianchi--has a relatively short top tube and a seat post that offers quite a bit of set back. Even with that, my saddle is pushed back to the limit on its rails.

As you look at bikes, you gotta remember that the frame itself dictates only part of the bike's geometry. There are other things you can tweak--stems, seat posts, saddles, handlebars, and stack---to accommodate weird proportions, at least within reason. That's why I'd really like to see you work with a shop that's going to do more than eyeball your standover and just plop you on a bike. You need to work with someone who actually understands the dynamics of bike fit.

[ultraviolet]

I am not a fit expert, but I'm going to make a guess that you should take a look at bikes with a fairly slack seat tube angle--something less than 74 degrees. Also probably with a tallish headtube--140mm or more.

Check out the Cervelo RS. I've know lots of women who always rode WSD frames because of reach issues that tried the RS and fell in love. The Cervelo RS has a 73 degree STA across all of its sizes, whereas most other companies vary STA with size.

I don't know the actual #s, but every degree of increase in STA translates to something like needing an centimeter of difference in top tube length. So, even if at first glance at the geometry charts you think the RS won't work, it's probably worth your time to try one out even if just to get another reference. Besides...it's a pretty sweet ride. :D

[Owlie]

But looking at your existing bike's geometry is a good place to start to determine what does and doesn't work for you. You mentioned feeling too stretched out on it, but have you ever worked with a fitter to tweak its set up? Even if you're determined to get a new bike, it's far easier to make informed decisions if you work first with what you already own as a frame of reference.

I've been meaning to. I have about half of it (service costs, anyway) in birthday/Christmas money. The other half...(well, I probably spent it stocking up on yarn to feed my other hobby...):o
There's a few things that I know need to be done (cleat adjustment, stem swap, saddle), and one thing I can think of that might need to be done (swap out for bars with shallower drops).

I think you're on to something with the smaller frame size, provided there's enough "travel" in the seatpost to make up for it. Maybe I'll take a little trip over to the shop this week or once I'm officially back in Cincy. I think they have a Ruby in a 54, so I can compare.

[OakLeaf]

I think you're on to something with the smaller frame size, provided there's enough "travel" in the seatpost to make up for it.

Seatpost is almost never an issue. Handlebar height can be with a smaller frame, though - that's why I suggested a fork.

[Becky]

Seatpost is almost never an issue. Handlebar height can be with a smaller frame, though - that's why I suggested a fork.

Oak is onto something here. Keep an eye on the head tube length of the frames that you're considering. If (like me) you need a lot of seat post showing to get the right combination of saddle height and reach, a slightly taller head tube make a big difference in comfort.

[indysteel]

The seatpost itself is usually not an issue--as you can typically swap it out for one with more set back, but STA can be an issue, especially on smaller frames, which often have steeper STAs.

[Owlie]

Seatpost is almost never an issue. Handlebar height can be with a smaller frame, though - that's why I suggested a fork.

Oak, can you explain what you meant by an uncut fork?

[OakLeaf]

A new fork comes with a really long steerer tube. When you buy a complete bike, the tube has already been cut to a height that will work for most riders on that size frame. To be able to set your handlebars higher without a super steep stem (that could adversely affect handling), you'd need a longer steerer tube, thus a new fork, and a lot of spacers.

[Owlie]

I was wasting time at the LBS yesterday evening, looking at road bikes. I was talking with one of the employees about what I didn't like about my bike, and he suggested a closer look at the Specialized bikes (Cannondale apparently has the same problem as Giant--they think that shaving a centimeter or less off the top tube of each size makes it WSD...). The floor models were all 48cm or 51, but he found me a built-up 54cm Dolce. The reach is still a little bit long but easily in the "new stem" range.

I took it out for a test ride.

Oh dear.

While there aren't any appreciable hills near the LBS, my trip up the little incline felt so much easier. It felt faster. And my arms didn't ache!
I'm thinking a 54cm Ruby might be a nice graduation present after I finish this master's degree...:D

The bike shop employee also mentioned that he'd recently come back from the BG fit classes from Specialized. They want him to do a few practice fittings. He knows I'm in the poor-student boat, so if I'm willing to be a guinea pig, he's okay with trying to work something out at a reduced price to put band-aids on my giant. :) I love my LBS when they do things right.

[Kathi]

[QUOTE=Owlie;579234]I was wasting time at the LBS yesterday evening, looking at road bikes. I was talking with one of the employees about what I didn't like about my bike, and he suggested a closer look at the Specialized bikes (Cannondale apparently has the same problem as Giant--they think that shaving a centimeter or less off the top tube of each size makes it WSD...). The floor models were all 48cm or 51, but he found me a built-up 54cm Dolce. The reach is still a little bit long but easily in the "new stem" range.

I took it out for a test ride.

Oh dear.

While there aren't any appreciable hills near the LBS, my trip up the little incline felt so much easier. It felt faster. And my arms didn't ache!
I'm thinking a 54cm Ruby might be a nice graduation present after I finish this master's degree...:D

QUOTE]

I agree with Ultraviolet, you may need a slacker seat tube angle. My niece is picking up her new bike today. She had a bike fit before buying. She was leaning toward the Specialized Dolce, but, after the bike fit the Dolce's seat tube angle would have been too steep for her. Instead, she bought an Orbea.

BTW, you have one of the best bike fitter's in the country in Cincinnati. She's a Serotta Fit Institute trainer and really understands women's issues. Her name is Kathy Krumme and she's at Oakley Cycles in Oakley. I too loved my bike shop in Cincy when they did things right but Kathy straightened out their mistakes for me. BTW, I ended up spending more money than I would have if I had seen her in the first place.

[Owlie]

I agree with Ultraviolet, you may need a slacker seat tube angle. My niece is picking up her new bike today. She had a bike fit before buying. She was leaning toward the Specialized Dolce, but, after the bike fit the Dolce's seat tube angle would have been too steep for her. Instead, she bought an Orbea.

BTW, you have one of the best bike fitter's in the country in Cincinnati. She's a Serotta Fit Institute trainer and really understands women's issues. Her name is Kathy Krumme and she's at Oakley Cycles in Oakley. I too loved my bike shop in Cincy when they did things right but Kathy straightened out their mistakes for me. BTW, I ended up spending more money than I would have if I had seen her in the first place.

Here's the question, though: Most places don't offer a pre-purchase fitting, especially if you're not in cycling hot spots or population centers. How on earth would you find out what works for you (besides the "hard" way) what geometry does and doesn't work for you?

54cm Spec seems to work for me (with a stem change) as far as I can tell. I haven't given a lot of others proper test rides (no one seems to keep any 54 cm WSD bikes in stock) I'm in no position to buy, nor will I be for a long time. Yes, I'll be testing other bikes (especially because Specialized seems to be very expensive), but I think it's on my short list.

[Artista]

Here's the question, though: Most places don't offer a pre-purchase fitting, especially if you're not in cycling hot spots or population centers. How on earth would you find out what works for you (besides the "hard" way) what geometry does and doesn't work for you?

How about paying for a high quality fit on a "fit bike" first. The "fit bike" allows the fitter to find the perfect size & geometry for you without any existing frame restrictions. You could then use those measurements to determine which bikes fall within your size & geometry range to test ride. Once you decide which bike to buy, the LBS can use the fit info to initially set it up. Chances are your fitter would offer a few "tweak sessions" at no additional charge to make sure your new bike is perfectly adjusted for you.

[Sky King]

Hey all, What I am not seeing in this thread is what type of riding you plan on doing. Be careful with LBS bike fitters, If they focus on people who race they tend to want to fit you very aggressively - often with your handlebars set below your saddle. If your intention is to not be a part of the Weekend Championships that may make your rides very painful. When the bike hermit owned a retail shop he spent hours working with riders who had been "fitted" poorly and were just miserable when riding. I speak from personal experience as I too, was set up by a "race fitter" on my former road bike incorrectly, neck pain, hand pain, dead arms - you name it, I had it. Hopefully you do some research, Peter White is good, Rivendell website is helpful, Sheldon Brown, Lovely Bicycle and our website (http://biketouringnews.com) are all helpful. Don't be afraid to question, and don't be afraid to tweak, all bike fits are the beginning, not the end :) Can't wait to read about the bike you choose

[Biciclista]

Sky King, i think it depends. I go into a shop (i'm 59) and I tell them that i don't want to be on my hands, they're not going to put my saddle in an extreme race position!

I don't pretend to be a racer (not saying you do) i tell them how i like to ride and what my issues are. I've been fitted to 3 different bikes now.

[OakLeaf]

I had the opposite experience. I had a fit done by a race shop, and they didn't give me very thorough attention because I don't have a race bike and don't ride super-aggressively. They knew what I wanted, and they were willing to set me up for it, but they didn't have much respect for it.

[Kathi]

Sky King, this was true when I started riding in the 90's but not true anymore. Bike fit used to be based on what the racers preferred. All my bikes then were set up so I was stretched out and low. No wonder I struggled for years to get a good fitting bike. I was amazed with the differences in the process in the last 5 yrs since my fitting for my custom frame.

My niece is a rank beginner, except for a poor fitting mt bike she bought just out of college because she liked the color. She had a full Serotta fit on the Serotta size cycle. It took 2.5 hrs. They went through everything, including what she plans to use the bike for. On the size cycle the fitter put her in a neutral position, not too high or low, and adjusted angles until she felt very comfortable. He was able to match the frame geometry to the results of the fitting. She didn't even test ride the bike (it was raining). The shop sells Specialized, which she had previously considered, but the Orbea geometry was a better match. The shop didn't have that model in stock but they ordered it for her, she just got it Sat. but so far she is raving about how much she loves it.

Most shops will reduce the cost of the bike fit if you buy from them. My shops guideline over a certain price free and under that price 50% off.

Owlie, Bio-Wheels in Maderia, Cyclesport in Loveland, Jim's in Deer Park and (I think) Campus Cycle's in Clifton all have a fit process similiar to Serotta's. Jim's have been around for year's and have fitted many riders in Cincinnati. I bought my 2nd mt bike from Bio-Wheels when they were in Clifton and have lots of experience with Campus. They are all good shops but my best fit, (refit) experience was with Kathy at Oakley.

You can make all kinds of changes in stems, seat tubes, etc. but if the frame geometry is not right for you the bike just will always be "almost" but "not quite right".

My bike shop saved my niece from an $800-$1,000 mistake. She did not know enough about frame geometry to chose one that gave her the best ride. She's starting off with a good fitting bike that will keep her happy for a long time.