Tell me about cadence

[westtexas]

Hi all,

Been reading on Sheldon Brown's web site about all things bicycle when I came across the concept of cadence (is it weird that I don't know about this?). He posits that most newbie cyclists, such as myself, pedal too slowly in too high a gear when the optimal would be to spin faster in a lower gear.

This morning on my ride I got smoked by two dudes (one in jeans and a flannel shirt :eek:) who were pedaling like maniacs. The second guy in his full cycling regalia came out of nowhere and cycled right by me as if the wind were not even blowing (and it was probably 20mph with 25-35 mph gusts). I was afraid I would not even be able to stay upright, and when I shifted into an easier gear I became violently unstable.

What is the importance of cadence? Sheldon Brown seems like the go-to guy for all things cycling, so I have faith in what he is saying. But spinning doesn't seems to get me much of anywhere and it feels so much slower and unstable (when in reality the opposite is true?). Is the only way to measure cadence by getting a cycling computer? How do you arrive at an appropriate cadence for your person? How does one train themselves to pedal faster in lower gears and still feel like you are moving and not floundering around (especially on hills)?

Thanks in advance.

[Kitsune06]

I'm going to make a motor analogy, but bear with me. Cadence is directly comparable to the RPMs in your car. High cadence is like not shifting right away into the next highest gear. Sure you hear the engine wind up, but many engines function better at higher RPMs because you're handling force in little bites instead of mashing hard. If you shift too soon, you might see your tach around 1k RPMs and hear/feel the car struggle a bit, if you don't 'kill' it and have it shut off on you.

The key is to find a gear that allows you to feel stable and still take just little, manageable bites of the force required to get where you're going instead of a) going to a gear too high and wobbling or b) standing and mashing.

I still don't always find that middle ground, I'm way, way too prone to the stand-and-mash... but I'm working on it.

This site might explain more and in a better way.
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/touring/gears.htm

Also, as I understand it, the keys to higher cadence can come from spinning classes but also from a proper fit to your bike. If your hips are wobbling from side to side because your saddle's too high, you will go all over the place at high cadence. If you let your core relax too much so when you really start spinning, your center of balance deviates from where it should align with the bike, you'll wobble.

like I said, I'm still working on this, though. I'm naturally a sprinter, would prefer to do something a few times w/ a lot of force than endurance anything but maybe I can retrain myself.

[radacrider]

For racers, they train to spin at a pretty high cadence, which allows for power and speed while still allowing for endurance.

It takes practice to retrain your legs to spin faster. Also, you have to learn what your natural cadence is. Start by riding as you would, then whatever that gear is, shift 1 lower. Get use to the feel of that.

For me, I am likely somewhere just below the 90 mark. Works for me. I have, basically, better slow twitch muscles, less fast twitch. Not much of a sprinter, but I can ride all day long.

My son use to pedal very slowly. On a few rides I had him try a lower gear for more spin. He now spins better and does not get as tired out, and still goes pretty fast.

As you train and practice, you will discover your ideal cadence. When you do find your ideal, I believe you will know it - you will be riding along, feeling pretty fast and not feeling like you are really exerting much effort - at least that is how it is with me.

[MollyJ]

Hey, there! As you know I am a newest of newbies and here are the two articles I've printed out to read on Cadence:

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/technique-cadence-matters-16394

http://knol.google.com/k/proper-cadence-in-cycling#

My plan is to get a baseline cadence, read MORE about it, work on it and match it with my calorie burn on the HRM. Then I will see where that takes me.

[westtexas]

... like I said, I'm still working on this, though. I'm naturally a sprinter, would prefer to do something a few times w/ a lot of force than endurance anything but maybe I can retrain myself.

See, I think I am the opposite of this... I would rather ride for a long period of time over a great distance than kill myself in the short term. However, I find I'm much better at maintaining a slower cadence (60 rpm maybe) in a tougher gear than a high spin with little to no power behind it.

I've had my bike professionally fit and I don't have any pains or problems there, as far as a know. My only complaint is now that I've "stretched out" a bit from two months of cycling, I can definitely tell my frame is way too small, but there is nothing I can really do about that right now (already extended the front stem as much as possible).

Maybe my trouble is stemming from a desire to go really fast for a really long time and not having the muscle strength or cardiovascular health to do it. Spin classes look absolutely dreadfully boring to me, but I suppose I could get rollers or a trainer (preferably rollers) to practice on to build these things up. Maybe what I really need is a cycling computer so I can see where I sit to know where I need to go.

Hmm.

Thanks all for the articles, I'm reading them right now.

[Catrin]

See, I think I am the opposite of this... I would rather ride for a long period of time over a great distance than kill myself in the short term. However, I find I'm much better at maintaining a slower cadence (60 rpm maybe) in a tougher gear than a high spin with little to no power behind it.

I have the same preference, though I am finding my cadence doesn't change overly much between climbing and flats - regardless of terrain it averages between 75-85 - it is only higher if I am consciously doing intervals. I don't spin in an easy gear going uphill, I tend to find a gear that allows me to get up and over the hill yet have good resistance - not enough to hurt but it feels much better than spinning in a lower gear. The cadence function on my computer is quite helpful.

That being said, I rode with someone yesterday who suggested that I am still climbing in too high a gear, cadence notwithstanding, and that I (and my legs/knees) would find it useful to learn how to spin up with a lower gear. I hate dropping the gear because my speed really drops - but there isn't any prize waiting for me either way :) Since this is my year for learning better habits to prevent more injury...

[nscrbug]

See, I think I am the opposite of this... I would rather ride for a long period of time over a great distance than kill myself in the short term. However, I find I'm much better at maintaining a slower cadence (60 rpm maybe) in a tougher gear than a high spin with little to no power behind it.



Add me to this bunch, as well. I can pedal forever at 75rpm in my "sweet spot" gear, but get me over 90rpm in an easy gear for any length of time, and my legs are toast almost instantly. I just do not like the feeling of "flailing" my legs around and going nowhere...it actually hurts my knees to spin a higher cadence (which I know goes against all cycling logic). My average cadence on nearly every ride I have done so far this year, has been between 78-83...I very seldom will get to 90, and if I do, I certainly don't stay there for very long.

[Crankin]

My average cadence is always between 72 and 82. But, to get that cadence, I have to spend a good part of my ride at 90+. The difference is, that I can spin very fast going up a hill, unless it's miles long. I use pretty easy gears, too. I've had people on group rides ask me how I "trained" to climb like that (spinning), but I honestly couldn't tell them. It's natural for me. It took me 5 years to be able to lift myself out of the saddle to stand and I don't see any advantage to it. My legs hurt, my HR goes up, and my speed goes down. I also approach long or steep climbs with the philosophy of "just tick the pedals over." It didn't take me long to figure out how to use my gears to my advantage.
On my past few rides I've tried doing some intervals which involve increasing my cadence on the flats (or what there are of them around here). It's pretty hard for me to maintain a high cadence (90+) on a flat, but it does increase my speed.
At this point, it's probably not worth it for me. But knees are in great shape for someone getting near 60 and been riding for 10 years in hilly terrain.

[Catrin]

Interesting Crankin, perhaps spinning comes more naturally to some of us than others? I haven't learned how to stand on the pedals and pedal either - though I gather I will learn that at the mtn bike clinic. While I've only had my new Sigma computer since I got the new Gunnar, it seems my average cadence has been, so far, 80-81. Not many steep climbs though, and we don't have many long ones...

Interesting topic! I've found my knees tend to get cranky without a certain level of resistance on the pedals, but that doesn't mean I can't learn how to do this more efficiently and more knee-friendly.

[westtexas]

Interesting Crankin, perhaps spinning comes more naturally to some of us than others? I haven't learned how to stand on the pedals and pedal either - though I gather I will learn that at the mtn bike clinic.

I think this is spot on. I heard a guy friend say that some of us are spinners and some of us are pushers. I guess that means I'm a pusher.

I find it interesting as well that it's not natural for some to stand on the pedals. I do this all the time on hills. It never occurred to me that it has advantages/disadvantages. If my legs get tired powering up a hill (I also use my clipped in feet to raise the pedals instead of just pushing down with the foot) I stand and find in short bursts it really helps to maintain speed and relieves muscle tension. I mostly stand when I need that extra umph to get up the hill at the end (hills around here seem to drag on forever!)

Good thing we were all made differently or this would be a boring world! :D

[Crankin]

DH does this and can power up and over any climb. I can barely get out of the saddle. I think I would need a lot of strength training to do this well, but I am definitely a spinner. When my son was racing, he was a climber/spinner.... lots of endurance. He sucked at time trials and was an average sprinter. I surmise this is genetic.

[MollyJ]

Catrin, did you "always" spin at your average rate or build to it?

Having not measured my cadence, I am assuming I am average--spinning at too low of a rate, too geared up.

And from what I have read fast spinners (lance-fast) are probably born and developed young--due to "more" rapid firing muscle fibers as opposed to more slow firing fibers (more average, more typical).

West Texas, I always say I'm built for endurance not speed and I'm expecting that cadence will reveal just that.

Somewhere I read an article about testing cadence at low gears and high gears but can't remember where. I think it was to actually show us that higher spin rates at lower resistance would engender better times than lower spin rates at higher resistance.

But I am interested in the role of cadence making the averge cyclist (like me :rolleyes:) faster and more efficient.

Good thread.

[Koronin]

Add me to the list of can't stand and pedal at the same time yet. Well I haven't tried it on the mountain bike yet, but just flat out can't do it on the road bike. (Thinking it might be easier to learn on the mountain bike). I also am not a spinner. I have a pretty slow cadence. Unfortunately due to moving it's going to be another probably two weeks before I can get back on my bike again. One of the last times before we started moving that my husband and I went out on our bikes he wanted me to try an easier gear and a higher cadence, and my legs felt like jello within a minute or so of trying that. He rides at a good bit higher cadence than I do and doesn't understand why I ride at a much slower cadence.

[jelee1311]

Most of the time my cadence is around 90 and I feel fine with it. I think it also depends what I'm doing if, I'm doing a hill I spin a lot. My PT said for me to spin in a lower gear rather than hammer in a larger gear so I don't injure my achilles again. I still use my big gears but I build speed before I use them so I still have a high cadence. I'm not as sore if I do this. But everyone has what works for them

[Catrin]

Catrin, did you "always" spin at your average rate or build to it?

Molly - I don't think I actually qualify as a "spinner" - I think they tend to have a higher cadence than I do. My Cateye computer on my LHT (the only bike I had last year) does not have average cadence so am unsure what my average cadence was last season. I suspect it wasn't much different though, since I learned early on that it is better for our knees to have a cadence >75. With my 51 year old joints I do try to be kind to them since they aren't problem free anyway.

I focus on cadence mainly as a way to support my knees - and of course I use it also when I do intervals. Some people do better with higher cadence and easier gears, while for others it is the opposite. Since this is only my second year of riding I am still working this out :)

[Hi Ho Silver]

The speed of your bike is dependent on the gear ratio being used, the speed at which you rotate the pedals (referred to as the "cadence", measured in RPM), and the force you apply to the pedals. The important thing to grasp is that you can produce the same speed using different levels of gear ratios, cadences, and pedal forces. You can use this fact to help you through a ride. The cadence that is best for you is situational and depends on many things:

~~ If your heart is beating rapidly and you are having a hard time breathing - shift to a slightly harder (higher) gear, slow down your cadence and push harder on the pedals.

~~ If your thighs are burning - shift to a slightly lower (easier) gear, increase your cadence but don't push as hard on the pedals.

~~ If you are experiencing a lot of pain on the saddle and/or in the shoulders - shift to a higher gear, slow down your cadence and push harder on the pedals.

~~ Your "optimal" cadence depends on your cardiovascular condition, your mix of slow-twitch/fast-twitch muscles, and your particular goal for the ride. The definition of "optimal" (e.g. max VO2 efficiency, or minimum muscle strain, etc.) depends on which study you are looking at. Regardless of the study and the definition, a cadence betweeen 80 RPM and 100 RPM is generally considered "optimal".


Your pedalling strategy can vary throughout the course of a ride. For example, on flat sections I cruise along at 88 RPM. On long climbs, I change to an easier gear and mash along at roughly 60 RPM (I find that I can take any hill as long as I pedal along at around 5mph at roughly 60 RPM - despite being over 60 years old and having crappy knees). To accelerate, I'll shift to progressively harder gears and mash away until I get to the speed that I want, and then I'll change gears to find one where I can maintain that speed while spinning along at 88 RPM.

[OakLeaf]

Knott has posted demonstrations before showing that your ideal cadence has to do with your individual proportion of fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscles. So just like each engine has a different powerband, each person has a different powerband, too.

Still, 60 rpm seems excessively slow to me. Too slow and you're risking your knees. I'm a pretty slow-twitch endurance type, and the natural cadence I fall into for both easy riding and easy running is right around 85 rpm.

No matter what your ideal is, it's useful to train at high cadence. That helps smooth your pedal stroke like not too much else. Among other things, the lower your cadence, the easier it is to fall into pedaling in squares instead of circles, which not only is inefficient, it's extra hard on your knees.

[Hi Ho Silver]

60 rpm does sound slow, but the book "Bicycling Science" (by Whitt & Wilson) quotes some old studies indicating that lower rpm's are more muscle efficient. I have no idea how valid those studies are. The book also indicates that the "advice to riders to 'keep spinning' is appropriate only for maximum-speed, maximum sprinting". My own experience disagrees with the book. For me, long arduous grinds up the mountains out west were only possible at low rpm. But on the flats, my legs definitely prefer 88 rpm for cruising along.

[bmccasland]

Only thing I can add was some of the best advice from a spin instructor who does ride outside...

To help teach yourself to spin, think about your feet going around in circles, not mashing down. Of course this only works when you're clipped in. :rolleyes:

I found on a ride when I was experimenting that if I thought about going in circles I could increase my cadence and speed without changing to a lower gear. I got to where I could spin up a short hill pretty easily. I'm toast on long hills. Circle, circle, circle. I can still see Mike's hand demonstrations in my mind.

[westtexas]

Okay, so I went out today (despite frigid weather of 55F and "misting" precipitation) and tried to focus more on spin and less on mash. The first half was miserable and gruesome and the second half was at least tolerable. Certainly, my legs feel fine (a little stretching afterwards also helped) but I do not think I have the cardiovascular strength (yet?) to spin at high rates. I don't have a cadence monitor but based on counting my strokes around the circle and counting time, I came up with a cadence of 80 rpm, but only if I was pedaling like my bike was on fire. My average speed was about the same (I measure based on distance/time) as it always is. I'm just not sure I'm cut out out for this quick cadence thing. I didn't enjoy my ride today at all. I guess it will have to be something I build up for. I did a lot of shifting to keep my cadence as steady as possible without fatiguing my muscles, so it's not like I was in a mashing gear trying to spin like a maniac.

Hmmm not really sure what to make of my ride today.

[indysteel]

I would agree that you will likely have to build up to it. I also wonder whether you also need to work on your pedal stroke. Out of curiosity, did you happen to note what gear you were using when you tried to sustain 80 rpms? Next time you go out, try to note what gear you're in and let us know. I have to wonder whether you're still trying to push too big of a gear, but in saying that, I will admit that I didn't struggle with this as a new rider. So perhaps I'm underestimating how challenging it might be to someone.

[westtexas]

My chain is on the big ring (farthest away from the bike) and about the middle of the rear rings (I often move to smaller rings in the rear when on flats or with tailwind). I think there are 9 rear rings if I remember correctly. If I shift to the little ring in front it makes a lot of awful noise so I tend to stay away from that... But I have a very hilly route and the wind is brutal out here, so maybe my problem lies there as well.

I have to agree with a lot of what Hi Ho Silver said - it's much easier for me to pedal slower and be in a higher gear because otherwise I am panting/out of breath. I don't get tired mashing around for 15 miles on my usual route. Today I only did 11 and at the end I was done. I think I am pretty much following all her posted rules about cadence already.

Maybe I am not doing anything wrong? Now I am confused. Sigh.

But, I would like to get faster, be more efficient and have better cardiovascular health, so that must be why higher cadences are more important. And then as you build better CV ability, you can spin just as fast in higher gears... right?

[Hi Ho Silver]

You have to take time to condition your body to spinning - i.e., work up to the "ideal"cadence.

Also, one thing about trying to spin at a high cadence - your bike fit must be set up correctly. If your seat is too far back or too low, spinning will be difficult. Have you had your bike fit checked?

[indysteel]

My chain is on the big ring (farthest away from the bike) and about the middle of the rear rings (I often move to smaller rings in the rear when on flats or with tailwind). I think there are 9 rear rings if I remember correctly. If I shift to the little ring in front it makes a lot of awful noise so I tend to stay away from that... But I have a very hilly route and the wind is brutal out here, so maybe my problem lies there as well.

I have to agree with a lot of what Hi Ho Silver said - it's much easier for me to pedal slower and be in a higher gear because otherwise I am panting/out of breath. I don't get tired mashing around for 15 miles on my usual route. Today I only did 11 and at the end I was done. I think I am pretty much following all her posted rules about cadence already.

Maybe I am not doing anything wrong? Now I am confused. Sigh.

But, I would like to get faster, be more efficient and have better cardiovascular health, so that must be why higher cadences are more important. And then as you build better CV ability, you can spin just as fast in higher gears... right?

What's the make and model of your bike? Does it have a triple, compact or standard double crank? I'm just trying to make an educated guess as to whether you're trying to spin in too big of a gear. While I agree that it takes spme conditioning, I also suspect that you may not be choosing the right gear.

[Crankin]

I was about to say the same thing, Indy. If your bike is a compact double (which I suspect it is), you should not be using only the big ring for a ride that is very hilly. No wonder a high cadence is hard! If your bike is not working well in the small ring, bring it in to be checked.

[indysteel]

I see from a past thread that you're riding a 2009 Specialized Dolce. From what I can tell from Specialized's website, you like have a 50-34 compact with a 9-speed 12-25 cassette. If you were in the middle of the cassette and on your big chain ring--factoring in wind and hills--I'm willing to bet that you were in slightly too big of a gear to spin comfortably at 80 rmp. Now, that's just a guess, but I would suggest redoing your experiment but try a gear or two smaller. While you do want a bit of resistance on your pedals, you want to choose a gear that is relatively easy. As Crankin said, get your bike serviced so that you can use your front chain ring. You need full access to those gears if you're going to deal effectively with your terrain and wind conditions. Once you get the issue fixed, start playing around more with your gearing while you attempt to spin a bit faster.

I used to run a triple on my road bike and now I have a compact with a 10-speed cassette. The jumps between gears are greater on the compact than on the triple, and it's a bit harder to find the perfect sweet spot in certain conditions. I have to shift in both the front and back a lot more now than I used to (I used to use my middle ring in most flat conditions almost exclusively and tended to use only a handful of rear cogs). I've found with the compact that I often end up using--out of a bit of laziness--slightly too big of a gear such that I struggle to spin like I used to with my triple. I wonder if you might be encountering the same issue--you are either settling on a gear that's slightly too big, which you're either mashing or getting out of breath trying to spin or too little of a gear that you end up spinning a bit too wildly on because you don't have enough resistance. A compact crank can take some getting used to as a result.

[OakLeaf]

A noisy chain is either a sign that you're cross chaining or a need for adjustment... not a reason not to use half your gears!

[Catrin]

A noisy chain is either a sign that yoi're cross chaining or a need for adjustment... not a reason not to use half your gears!

I had a huge problem with this last year, until one of the wrenches at my LBS explained that I need to trim my FD from time to time, and when I understood this better the problem went away. At the height of the problem I couldn't use more than a third of my gears :eek: :o My not understanding trimming had led to everything getting out of adjustment, and it just fed the cycle until I learned.

[Bike Writer]

I've been following this discussion with great interest because I have issues (or had more in the past) with finding the proper gear for hills and my tendancy to get winded. Granted I am not in the best physical condition but I found myself walking up hills often. With a new bike that has a greater range of gears I have yet to had one that I've walked up. However I do at times have to stop and catch my breath on bigger hills.

I have a 14-34t Mega Range cassette on the back and 42/34/24 on the front.

If I am reading all this correctly I might be getting winded from spinning too much? I think this is going to take some trial and error and perhaps I should be practicing and getting the feel of the different gears on flats?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as though the additional gears make the effective length of the chain shorter? Is that why I feel that I get quicker acceleration and more power from or is it something else? I think the winded part is more from me not being in better condition + needing more practice with using the correct gear for the situation. And of course timing is everything and catching the feel for when is the optimal time to shift is probably like putting or the short game of golf....it comes with practice.

[OakLeaf]

Is that why I feel that I get quicker acceleration and more power from or is it something else?

Quicker acceleration and more power are from using a lower gear. That's why stoplight drag racers usually drop a tooth from stock on their front sprocket. :p

Your new setup still has the middle gear ranges, you just have the option to use lower gears now. If you're getting winded on hills that you used to be able to climb on the bike, then it's either a matter of working on your cardio endurance or, yes, possibly using a taller gear. But if you're now riding up hills and getting winded that you used to have to walk ... that's only because you're exerting yourself more.

[Bike Writer]

Oak, I need to be a bit more specific. I am now riding up hills that I used to walk up. I do get winded and stop partway up, but continue on riding up them. In the past I would have to stop because it felt too hard (and I was winded) and when I caught my wind again, I'd have to walk the rest of the way up not ride.

Makes sense about getting winded from more exertion.

[westtexas]

Okay, here goes.

Yes, my bike is a Specialized 2009 Dolce Elite. I think it's a comp and the frame is a 50 or 51 (actually too small for me). I've had it properly fit by a reputable fitter. Certainly the crotch pain I had when I first started has all disappeared and I have no aches anywhere after I ride.

I read this thread prior to riding today (70F, 12mph NE winds, low humidity... it was gorgeous!!) to keep all your advice and experience in my head as I went along. It went better today but I was still huffing and puffing. I went my full route (~15 miles) without wanting badly to go home.

I think I found my "sweet spot". At about 75-80 rpm I could maintain the cadence on a flat indefinitely. My CV system wasn't crashing and my legs were not aching or burning. So at the very least, I think that's a good thing to figure out. This puts me on the big wheel in the front and the 3rd largest wheel in the back.

I attempted to maintain this cadence the whole ride (and did well until the massive hill at the end) by shifting up or down accordingly - this is the correct thing to do, right?

Over time I assume that it will become easier for me to maintain a cadence in my sweet spot and that you are thus then able to build up strength to pedal that fast in higher gears, right? And that's how you get faster? That's my ultimate goal - I want to be faster but still be able to go long distances. There is a 100mile ride in September I would like to be able to participate in.

Thanks again for everything guys, this is invaluable as I become a better cyclist.

[indysteel]

It sounds like you're making progress. Before long, it'll feel like second nature. Just remember that hills change the equation. Your cadence will likely slow down a bit, even if you choose an easier gear. It sort of depends on the hill and how you want to climb it. No one style will work for everyone on every hill.