stupid sizing?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Ok, just want to vent a bit here.
Why is it that a 5'5" 155 lb. woman needs to buy XL biking clothes???
I look in the mirror and I see (http://harmonias.com/bikes/grocery_withLisa.jpg) a relatively normal sized mature pear shaped woman with a few curves and a little extra padding. 'Large' size might be logical for me, but... EXTRA large? No one who first meets me would ever think 'She's a big woman', much less "She's an extra big woman'.
If I am what is considered 'extra large', then what the heck do actual large women need to do? Am I simply deluding myself (tell me the truth, I can take it), or is this whole sizing thing just weird?

[zoom-zoom]

The sizing thing IS weird! And it REALLY drives me nuts when it's erratic within a single brand (I notice this with PI). I think I'm a pretty "medium" kind of gal, but I have smalls and larges in my cycling wardrobe, in addition to the mediums that seem accurately cut/sized.

[badgercat]

Sizing is wacky all over the place. I'm a petite-to-average-framed 5'5", and normally run between a small and medium in ladies' sizes, or large in "juniors" at department stores. I recently ordered a casual sleeveless top from TE that the item page warned ran big. So, I got the size small (the smallest available) figuring it would be fine, and was absolutely swimming in it. I had to return it.

[westtexas]

It's even worse I think when you don't fit the "standard image" of what the body should be shaped like. I'm an average built 5'6" and 130lbs. My pant size is the easiest thing to find (except for the whole not having a butt thing, but oh well). For shirts, it's even more complicated. Don't have much in the way of boobs but my rib cage is HUGE for my frame. If you follow the measurement guidelines given for sizing on most apparel, I should be wearing larges and xtra larges, but they just sag on me. I guess they assume if your ribs are 36 around then you must have the boobs to fit in there too! Sadly, I just end up with a lot of storage space for wallets and phones, LOL.

[Kitsune06]

This is why I loathe women's sizing, especially for jeans etc. If you want a pair of jeans with the perfect inseam, you go for guy's 501s, pick out your waist (or hips, however you wear them) then the inseam, and you have the exact dimensions you're looking for. Women's? Well... I think I'm an 8ish. Maybe a 10. Wait, what brand is it? They run small. Maybe I'm a 12 for them. Is 'petite' going to be too long or too short for this brand? :rolleyes::mad:

So if the numbered sizes seem this arbitrary, the s,m,l,xl sizes are completely chaotic to me. I'm about the same size as Badgercat, I think... 5'4ish and probably somewhere around 112-115 and often stymied by what 'small' might mean. Often it means "It's going to look huge on your waist but look like it's painted on your butt" or "It's going to be really long, but incredibly tight in your shoulders" or "It's hanging off of you but too short." :P

I want to find the lasts most companies make their stuff on.
...and burn them. :cool::eek::rolleyes:

[CyclicChick]

I think either like most of the clothing nowadays, it is made in countries were people are 5' or they use female jockeys. Researching ;) I'm a size 12 and I have to get XL jerseys.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I'm a size 12 and I have to get XL jerseys.

This is what I'm talking about- size 12 (or 14) should NOT be an "XL"...!!! :mad:

[Catrin]

It is just nuts - I wear size 6 slacks from Dress Barn (vanity sizing), size 8 jeans are baggy on me, I wear small bibs from PI, and large jerseys from PI. Terry apparently doesn't make a jersey large enough for me - it just doesn't make sense! I am an entire 133 pounds at 5'3....

I do think the jersey problem is because I have breasts :eek: Yes, I know it is shocking for a woman to have them, but have always been large in that department regardless of the size of the rest of me.

[moderncyclista]

I have to get men's jerseys and they are ill-fitting at best. It's still european sizing and mediums look like child's jerseys. Pffftttttt. :(

I wish someone would make jerseys for "real" women. (NOTE: business idea for someone who can design/sew!!! or a HINT: to TE that they should take up that torch! :D)

[Crankin]

I don't have any problems getting cycling clothes to fit me; that is if they carry x-smalls in a particular brand. I have had some "styles" of jerseys not fit well, or shorts that have the wrong kind of chamois, but not really fit. There's been a few PI things I liked, but PI does not make cycling clothes for women in my size, or at least most distributors don't carry them. Shebeest tops are generally too big for me, but I love the shorts. I think you need to look very carefully at the manufacturer's size charts, as they could be very different.
My problem is with regular clothes. Vanity sizing and the lengthening of petite sized pants is an issue. Petite pants used to be 28.5 or 29 inches. Now they are 30 inches, and even with heels, that's too long for me. And I don't like the longer style t shirts. Even in a petite xx-small, some are too long. I feel like the market is not catering at all to short people!

[hebe]

I'm 135lbs at 5ft5, and am a small around the hips, a medium around the natural waist and a large on the bust. It seems crazy when it's statistically normal for women to be larger, yet smaller women are often already at the large end of cycle clothing sizing.

I'm glad it's not just me.

[chryss]

I'm sensitive to this topic as I've lost a good amount of weight over the last 6 months (too embarrassed to say how much, but it's >50 pounds) and am currently at 162 pounds (and 5'4"), which is close to the thinnest (for generous values of "thin") I've been in my adult life. I'm now an L in most tops including soft/wind/rain shells, but haven't tried much cycling clothing yet. Being a regular L size is thrilling as until very recently even trying to buy outdoorsy protective clothing was just a long sequence of frustrations. I found a winter parka last winter, which you want to buy roomy for layers below -- well this IS Alaska where people need parkas and a lot of people are carrying excess poundage. But a nice rain proof Gore Tex hiking jacket? No chance to find it in my size. It was really a turn-off for getting more active as I'm sensitive to looking ridiculous.

The other day I was looking a high-viz vest (Bontrager) at the LBS. It looked M/L-ish to me and I wondered if I could close it, and maybe wear it over my (well-fitting) wind shell from REI (L). It turned out to be an XL, largest they had, and fit, but barely. A woman was eyeing me skeptically. I said something like "this is awfully small for an XL" and she burst out laughing: clearly she'd had the same thought. She was a bit taller (5'6"?) and thinner than me -- not skinny but normal weight.

[Marquise]

I'm resigned to being XL in most cycling clothes. And I don't get why I can wear L in PI shorts/tights but need XL in a PI jersey, the opposite of "normal" clothes, where I usually need larger bottoms than tops. Even trying to stick with brands I already own, I sometimes find a new item in a brand I've got multiples of doesn't fit like the others.

[ny biker]

I'm 5'7", 140 lbs, small busted, wear a small in regular shirts. But some of my workout tank tops are XL. In cycling tops I am anywhere from S to L depending on the cut -- even within one brand, I'm not a consistent size.

It's a problem for retailers, too, although I don't know if they know it. I rarely buy athletic tops online because I have no idea what size to get.

BTW right now I'm wearing a t-shirt that I got in the mid-90s on a trip to see Mets spring training games in Florida. It's a size large, but it's smaller than the "small" t-shirt I got at the Livestrong Challenge last year.

Oy vey.

[Eden]

Well - they are not adding the sizes onto the small end.... I'm 5' nuthin, relatively thin and I'm super lucky if I can find xs or xxs (or 0, 00 or what ever they add next) to fit into at all...... feel lucky if you can find clothing that actually fits you, no matter what number or letters they label it with.

[emily_in_nc]

Eden, I have a feeling no one is going to feel sorry for you. ;)

I do understand, being a smaller gal myself, but many on here would give their right arm to be as tiny as you are!

[Crankin]

That's why I hesitated on saying anything, but it's not just a matter of being small all over. Even though my weight is on the smaller end, petite sized people (i.e. short people) come in all sizes... up to size 16 in most stores. What does a size 10 five foot tall person do? I can remember when I was in my twenties and looking for work clothes. It was really hard for me; I never wore pants and some of the junior clothes were not appropriate, even though they fit. I remember when Petite Sophisticate opened when I was in my early thirties. It was the eighties and I bought tons of suits there that I wore when I taught high school. I wore them on my interviews when I moved to MA. It was like I died and went to heaven.
And, I do think it's kind of discrimination when there's no clothing for smaller people. I can't help my height.
And I guess cycling clothes are just as variable in their proportions as regular clothes. I pretty much stick to 1-2 brands because I know they fit.

[redrhodie]

What about bathing suits? Ever notice how they have their own completely different size chart, that doesn't relate to other clothing? And it's larger than regular clothes. It's like the reverse of vanity sizing. Add to that those dreadful mirrors and lighting (I'm talking dept stores specifically) and you're in for some fun. :rolleyes:

[Tri Girl]

I know, right, Red?? What is up with that? I don't like having to go up 2 sizes in a swimsuit from what I wear in regular clothes. Not cool!! If they would figure that out, they'd sell a lot more swimsuits! Very frustrating! I like when I find things from Ann Taylor at the thrift stores- they do some serious vanity sizing. I can swear 8's and 10's from that store. Makes me feel sorta better about it. :rolleyes:

[jessmarimba]

Red, I would give anything to find a longer-torsoed one piece bathing suit in a physical store. I don't think they exist. I mean, I'm comfortable in a bikini, but that doesn't mean I always want to wear one (and yes I know about tankinis, but it's not like those are going to cover my midriff either).

Eden, I've often wondered about people like you as far as sizing goes! I'm 5'7" and narrow-shouldered - I wear a S or XS in most athletic tops (as long as they're long enough). But I know compared to someone who is small-framed and 6 inches shorter, I still look like a giant. So who makes clothes to fit you??

[bmccasland]

Although my weight has crept up over the years (arrggg) it wasn't until I moved to New Orleans that I found a nice selection of petite clothes. I'm 5'3" and currently weigh ~160lbs, so depending on what I buy I wear a 10 or 12, and M to XL. In N.O. there were a lot of petit women - that old european blood line. So I left here, and thanks to a large asian community, there's a lot of short women - so the department stores stock a pretty good selection of petites.

But I haven't tried to buy cycling gear.

[emily_in_nc]

What about bathing suits? Ever notice how they have their own completely different size chart, that doesn't relate to other clothing? And it's larger than regular clothes. It's like the reverse of vanity sizing.

Yeah, I'm worried about this b/c I just ordered two separate swimsuit pieces from Lands End (a bikini top and boyshorts), and with quite a bit of fear and trepidation, I ended up ordering my normal clothing size rather than sizing up. I did this b/c after reading all the reviews, it seemed that the pieces ran true to real sizes. Lands End has separate size charts for swimsuits, and my measurements fit into my normal size. But that probably means nothing! I just have this bad feeling they're going to have to go back for the next size up.

[Eden]

Eden, I have a feeling no one is going to feel sorry for you. ;)

I do understand, being a smaller gal myself, but many on here would give their right arm to be as tiny as you are!

I'm only tiny because I'm short and everything about me is scaled down- I'm healthy thin, but not exactly super skinny. Believe me you would *not* give your right arm to be this small....

there are a lot of things that I have to settle for making do with or adapting something that is too big and plenty more (including bicycles) that I am totally on the edge of fitting. Trust me - you do not want to be on the fringes of "normal". Pardon me if I roll my eyes a bit at anyone who complains about whether or not they are a m, l, or xl - hey at least they make your size - ask me about the dozens of pairs of boots I looked at before I finally found a pair that was even produced in a small enough size - ask me why I have to wear two pairs of socks with my winter cycling shoes *all* of the time - ask me if I can actually purchase a pair of jeans made for adults anymore... oh yeah, an ergonomically correct workstation.... yeah right, not if you are my size, adapt and make do....

[Crankin]

Thank you. I am probably an inch taller than you and also thin, but not "skinny" by any means.
I almost never go into a physical store anymore. There is an Ann Taylor Loft near my house, where I buy lots of stuff, because they have my size, but right now I am not so happy with their stuff. The Talbots next door constantly tries to get me to buy stuff there, when I go in to buy stockings or other little accessories. Besides the fact that the clothes look like they are for old ladies (even though I am an old lady, I don't dress like one), the size 2s there swim on me. I buy a lot of stuff from Banana Republic and Gap; there is a Banana Republic petite store in a mall about 18 miles from here, so maybe twice a year I go there; the rest is done on-line. I didn't know the Gap had petites on-line, as they are not in the stores. I have found tons of skinny jeans that fit me! However, their sweaters and tops are a little big on me; they don't have xx small petites (even though I am not xxsmall).
Bathing suits, well, I only buy them from Athleta now. I found one tank style, halter top that is flattering to me, or at least as flattering as a bathing suit can be.

[Pax]

My SO and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum, I'm 5'10" and big, she's 5' and tiny. Neither of us has much luck in stores. For some reason if you're heavy the stores assume you are short (most plus size clothes come in a 30" inseam???). My SO is almost ten inches shorter than me but our inseams are only 1.5 inches different, she is all legs with a super short torso... almost nothing off the rack fits her. The current womens clothing style of tapered in waists normally hit her somewhere low on the hips. Last time we went shopping for some nice clothes she was trying on L and XL as well!! This pretty much means I'll never be able to wear womens clothing, no matter how much weight I lose.

We end up wearing guy jeans (Lee fits her, Wrangler fits me), and lots of tshirts/sweatshirts.

[Grog]

Hey Eden, I think you should come and shop North of the Border in Richmond BC (and I could point you to a specific mall or two). There is a really big Chinese community there and very many tiny women. Men also tend to be a little smaller and for my husband (who has a true, skinny climber body type and is not very tall) it's also great, he can actually find pants and a belt that fits him out there...

[malkin]

Discussions like this always leave me wondering if there is any configuration of woman who can consistently find clothes that fit off the rack and just what that woman might look like.

As for sizing, I just pretend the letters mean something else:

L for Lovely
M for aMazing (or Monstrous depending on how the sizes run and if it fits or not)

XL that fits after you have lost weight might mean that item is for a person who is Ex-Large (i.e. formerly large)

[nscrbug]

I pretty much have come to despise clothes shopping of any kind. I'm a muscular & fit 5'6", 157lbs. I wear size 8 jeans/pants, but there is no way that I'm squeezing into anything smaller than an XL on top...especially when it comes to cycling gear. Nearly every single jersey or workout top I own, is an XL. I tend to stay away from the European stuff, as it is generally cut even smaller. Swimsuits are another animal...I usually have to get a 40 no matter what. I have a very broad upper back and shoulder area (from swimming and lifting weights)...so that will always be a problem area for me. A lot of my cycling bottoms are mediums, but a few are larges depending on brand. I just accept the fact that I am the size that I am...whatever that may be.

[emily_in_nc]

Pants are the hardest for me -- I'm 5'2" but have relatively long legs for my height. I found that the Gap 1969 jeans in the short (ankle) length are okay on me as long as I wear a small heel. I used to buy a lot of pants at LL Bean, but recently their petites have been too short on me (most have inseams of 28.5"). I need a 29" inseam -- not 28", and not 30". One inch makes a HUGE difference in whether I'm wearing dorky-looking highwaters or dragging pants on the ground even w/heels. I find capris or long shorts to be the best compromise during the summer since length is not an issue, generally. And it's hot enough here in NC that capris work for months at a time.

And shoes -- shoes are hard as I have narrow feet and my measured size is a 7A -- not B, not AA, but A. Try finding that size! So I have to do the thick/double sock thing with trail runners, for example.

Eden, I do understand and was not trying to be rude, but I know it's can be difficult for larger gals to relate to the plight of the very small. You made some excellent points. Heck, I had a hard time explaining to my very tall friend at work why it was so difficult for me to carry my mtb down three flights of stairs (and why it's so much easier to carry my Bike Friday with its smaller wheels). Tall people don't realize how much more leverage it takes for us to lift heavy items up so they clear the ground. We have to lift UP from the shoulder the entire time, where they can just let something dangle, and it won't hit the ground.

[Crankin]

Don't get me started on shoes. I wear a 6 in casual shoes and sandals, but a 5.5 in dress shoes. I have a medium wide foot, with narrow heels. And my left foot is almost half a size bigger than my right.
I consider myself lucky. I wore a size 5 until I had DS #1 and then my feet grew half a size. After DS #2 was born, I stretched that a little more.
My mom wore a size 4 her entire adult life. In the beginning, my dad owned a shoe factory and back in the day, the sample size was 4. By the 70's my dad was out of the shoe business and the sample size was 7. She had to go to Nordstroms to buy shoes for my wedding and often resorted to the kid's department. She was exactly five feet tall and never had trouble finding clothes back in the fifties, sixties, and through the seventies. After that, she had the same issues as me. I recently took her wedding dress out of the hermetically sealed box, as my DIL was going to use some of the lace. I could not believe how teeny her waist was. She must have weighed 85 pounds. Even I could not have fit in that dress. Yet, she had gorgeous clothes when I was little and didn't have trouble finding them.

[jessmarimba]

Shoes....you guys had to bring up shoes....YUCK!

Haha. I (generally) wear a normal width, but my feet are so low-volume that the only shoes that fit me correctly are my chacos - cinched as tight as they go.

Oh. And my favorite jeans just fell apart. So now I get to go jeans shopping again too. Time to play the big-butt-thin-waist-athletic-thighs game again.

[zoom-zoom]

Discussions like this always leave me wondering if there is any configuration of woman who can consistently find clothes that fit off the rack and just what that woman might look like.

Given how clothes fit me I have decided that she has legs that are 2" longer, torso that is an inch or two shorter, a thicker waist, but smaller butt and thighs and 1 cup size smaller boobs. :p

[Becky]

Oh. And my favorite jeans just fell apart. So now I get to go jeans shopping again too. Time to play the big-butt-thin-waist-athletic-thighs game again.

I just went through this. I stumbled across some junior's relaxed fit boot-cut jeans on Sierra Trading Post that actually fit women with thighs bigger around than beer bottles, and without being huge in the waist.

This is my current clothing pet peeve....smaller sizes that are cut for little waif girls, not powerful athletic women with leg and butt muscles.

[indysteel]

Becky, what jeans are they if I may ask? I have big thighs for the rest of my frame and hate jeans shopping.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Given how clothes fit me I have decided that she has legs that are 2" longer, torso that is an inch or two shorter, a thicker waist, but smaller butt and thighs and 1 cup size smaller boobs. :p

This is correct, except that she has 1 cup size larger boobs.

:D

[GLC1968]

Given how clothes fit me I have decided that she has legs that are 2" longer, torso that is an inch or two shorter, a thicker waist, but smaller butt and thighs and 1 cup size smaller boobs. :p

And no muscle on her arms. ;)

[Owlie]

Lisa, I had that problem with a cotton hoodie thing I bought from Target a few years ago. XL for someone who weighs 140lbs at nearly 5'7"?

I hate buying dress shoes because I have flippers for feet (and my right is nearly a half-size bigger than my left) and if they fit width-wise across the ball of my foot, they're way to wide in the heel. (Maybe I'm actually a duck...?)

As long as my legs are (my legs and torso need different bike sizes!), the woman that most clothes are designed for must have legs that are even longer! And she must not have fat or muscle on her legs either. That is the only explanation I have for why I can't find capris that don't look like my pants have shrunk in the dryer (rather than mid-calf where I'd like), or those shorts that are cut exactly like the top half of a regular pair of pants.

[Becky]

Becky, what jeans are they if I may ask? I have big thighs for the rest of my frame and hate jeans shopping.

Cruel Girl relaxed-fit Britany jeans. They also make a slim fit in the same style...caveat emptor.

I stumbled across them by dumb luck, honestly. Another woman wrote in her review that they fit her athletic thighs and butt, despite being juniors, so I took a gamble and lucked out.

[malkin]

I don't think Medium is average, just somewhere between Small and Large, whatever that may mean.

[bluejellybean]

Does anyone know of any GOOD thick padded cycling shorts that fit small? I got the Pearl Izumi sugar short in size small, but they're too big! I have to return them to TE but not sure what to replace them with and don't want to have to keep sending them back...getting desperate to be riding with a new pair! I need the thigh area to fit snug and the padding not to droop! :o

[Blueberry]

Does anyone know of any GOOD thick padded cycling shorts that fit small? I got the Pearl Izumi sugar short in size small, but they're too big! I have to return them to TE but not sure what to replace them with and don't want to have to keep sending them back...getting desperate to be riding with a new pair! I need the thigh area to fit snug and the padding not to droop! :o

Pick up the phone and call TE! Seriously - this is the kind of question they'll be able to answer in a heart beat - and probably much more correctly than any of us:)

[Owlie]

The thing is, I am not an average-sized woman! Why is everything I wear a medium?

Isn't 'medium' considered average?

Hmmm....

You'd think, but it all seems very arbitrary to me as to where they draw those lines (whoever "they" are). I wear anything from a medium (shorts, some jerseys) to an XL (some jerseys).
(and I feel your pain on the bikes...)

[indysteel]

Does anyone know of any GOOD thick padded cycling shorts that fit small? I got the Pearl Izumi sugar short in size small, but they're too big! I have to return them to TE but not sure what to replace them with and don't want to have to keep sending them back...getting desperate to be riding with a new pair! I need the thigh area to fit snug and the padding not to droop! :o

I'd suggest the Sugoi RS short in an XS, but I've heard of some quality control issues of late with the short. I second the suggestion to call TE. They really know their products, and are more than happy to help.

[Crankin]

Also, the Shebeest S Pro shorts in x-small are perfect for me. Nice huge flat waist, too. I also have the Terry Bellas, which are longer and heavier.

[emily_in_nc]

Does anyone know of any GOOD thick padded cycling shorts that fit small? I got the Pearl Izumi sugar short in size small, but they're too big! I have to return them to TE but not sure what to replace them with and don't want to have to keep sending them back...getting desperate to be riding with a new pair! I need the thigh area to fit snug and the padding not to droop! :o

Sounds like you need XS. I am partial to Sugoi shorts, but everyone is built differently, and shorts change from model year to model year (and mine are all 2+ years old), so I can't give any specific recommendations.

[jessmarimba]

Oh my goodness. So I did the jean shopping thing today. Becky - good suggestion on trying the Gap again. I bought a pair of straight leg that look like skinny jeans on me. And a pair of the long & leans, which run REALLY big. As in, I'm suddenly a size 0. Both pair are a little snug at the fattest part of my leg but fit my butt and my waist ok. Supposedly they'll stretch about half a size.

Shorts are another story...no luck. I just want a pair of khaki shorts that don't make my legs look like sausages.

[WindingRoad]

I was cleaning out the closet a few weeks ago and came across a pair of Calvin Klein jeans I had before I started cycling. Keep in mind I've lost weight since I started cycling. I put those stupid things on and I couldn't help just busting out laughing! It was like someone saran wrapped my things and quads and everything else was dangling! There was enough room int the back of those jeans to store food for a week! I think PI needs to come up with JEANS for cyclists too!

[lph]

As for sizing, I just pretend the letters mean something else:

L for Lovely
M for aMazing (or Monstrous depending on how the sizes run and if it fits or not)

XL that fits after you have lost weight might mean that item is for a person who is Ex-Large (i.e. formerly large)

Late to this one. I came across a lovely and very expensive series of designer dresses in one shop labeled like this :)
S - Smashing
M - Marvellous
L - Luscious
XL - Extra Luscious :)

I've always wondered why manufacturers even want to alienate a whole bunch of women by telling them they're "large", given that the beauty ideal for women has been attached to "small and dainty" for hundreds of years. Why not just size clothes by numbers that state something that can be measured? You're not going to alienate anyone by telling them they need a pair of pants with a hip circumference of x inches or a top that fits a bust of y inches - either it fits or it doesn't, no need to mix in relative judgements like large and small. (Which all go out the window if you're shopping in a country where the population is sized differently anyway.)

[Pax]

I was cleaning out the closet a few weeks ago and came across a pair of Calvin Klein jeans I had before I started cycling. Keep in mind I've lost weight since I started cycling. I put those stupid things on and I couldn't help just busting out laughing! It was like someone saran wrapped my things and quads and everything else was dangling! There was enough room int the back of those jeans to store food for a week! I think PI needs to come up with JEANS for cyclists too!

I run into that same problem with shirts when I'm lifting regularly, I'll pull on a favorite old shirt and there's too much extra to tuck in, but the upper arms and shoulders are busting at the seams. I enjoy doing a hulk impression at those moments. :D

[emily_in_nc]

I've always wondered why manufacturers even want to alienate a whole bunch of women by telling them they're "large", given that the beauty ideal for women has been attached to "small and dainty" for hundreds of years. Why not just size clothes by numbers that state something that can be measured? You're not going to alienate anyone by telling them they need a pair of pants with a hip circumference of x inches or a top that fits a bust of y inches - either it fits or it doesn't, no need to mix in relative judgements like large and small. (Which all go out the window if you're shopping in a country where the population is sized differently anyway.)

Such a wonderful point, lph! Numerical sizes don't imply a judgment. I guess it's easier for a manufacturer, tho, to combine sizes (such as 0-2 = XS, 4-6 = S, and so forth), and that's how this kind of thing got started. Still, that doesn't make it right.

[malkin]

Random sizing allows manufacturers to permit random construction. Since it is meaningless "Small" garments don't all have to be the same size across or within items. If the size were a real measurable number, then the garments would all have to be really that size.

[lph]

But aren't all clothes (or at least the pattern) at some point originally cut and fitted to a three-dimensional model that actually has real measurements? Or am I showing my naivety here when it comes to factory construction ;)

They have to be based on *something* :confused:

Besides, if I were between sizes it would be a lot easier for me to assess if I want to size up to hip circ. x or down to hip circ y in a pair of pants, rather than trying to guess if I'm somebody's idea of "small" or not.

[jessmarimba]

You just hit on MY pet peeve, lph. I loathe when they actually do have a size chart with numerical measurements of chest, waist, hips, etc...and the numbers on the chart are also vanity-sized. Like per the numbers on Gap's size chart, I should wear a 4-6 in their jeans...in reality, I fit a 0-2.

I am by no means a size 0. And only rarely a 2 (like, maybe for skirts that aren't fitted through the hips).

[lph]

I'm actually just griping, because even online clothing stores that do have numerical measurements just confuse me. According to Patagonia I can fit anything from extra small to medium, depending on whether I measure around my hips or my waist. Which pretty much amounts to the same thing, actually - thanks for the genes, mom and grandma.

Vanity sized NUMBERS? How bizarre.

[Owlie]

Jess--
The first time I bought jeans from Gap, the woman working there told that they run big and stretchy, so that your best bet would be buying a size smaller than you usually wear (or than the numbers on the size chart would indicate.)
They do run big and stretchy (the only time size 8s fit me is straight out of the dryer), but it's probably vanity sizing anyway.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

i never even heard of a woman's size 0 or 2 when i was young in the 60's and 70's. Did they have those sizes back then, or is this a recent invention? I seem to recall that anything smaller than 6 was in the 'juniors', 'junior Miss', or 'petites' section. In the 60's I remember hearing the term 'a perfect size 8' a lot. And no, this was well after the whalebone corset era! :cool:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSUVYldtaMtcYTgDwGkqEx3dKssB-Ef7aOzstz3ZuHszBdj0SQhkg

[Crankin]

They did have size 1 and 3 in the junior's department. When I was in my late twenties/early thirties I still bought my clothes in juniors, as there were no petite sizes. I wore a perfect size 5 or 7, but everything was too long. I never wore pants. Thankfully, petites came into being around the time I decided I needed to dress more like a grown up.
You are right, though, Lisa. My mom, who was 5 ft. nothing and weighed between 90 and 100 lbs. wore a size 6. And it's funny that European sizes seem to have stuck to this. Their size 6 is an equivalent to our 2... I found this out when I went into H and M to buy a basic black skirt when I was in Vienna.

[emily_in_nc]

Jess--
The first time I bought jeans from Gap, the woman working there told that they run big and stretchy, so that your best bet would be buying a size smaller than you usually wear (or than the numbers on the size chart would indicate.)
They do run big and stretchy (the only time size 8s fit me is straight out of the dryer), but it's probably vanity sizing anyway.'

They may run big, but so does just about everywhere else, so I don't think they run big in comparison to other stores, necessarily. I wear a size 2 (short) at Gap, and I also wear a 2 (Petite) just about everywhere else I've bought pants in the last several years -- Loft, Talbot's, Lands End, American Eagle, and others. Size inflation is rampant just about everywhere.

I wore a 6P in high school, and I weigh the same now as I do then.

[GLC1968]

I ran head first into vanity sizing this weekend. I'm starting a new job and I needed some non-engineer clothing. I went to the Ann Taylor outlet and it was an exercise in frustration. Let me start by applauding companies for finally getting on the 'curvy' train and offering pants that are built for ladies with butts. That part is a very nice change from 15 years ago when I was in retail.

And not that it's the stores' fault, but I clearly need to retrain my brain as I selected all the wrong sizes. Let me be clear, I don't really care what size is on the tag and I recognize that with my shape, I'll likely be in different sizes depending on style. Nothing new there. But when I held up the size 8 pants, they looked too small for me, so I grabbed 10's too. Then I did the same for tops - 6's usually fit me at AT, but they looked small, so I took 8's into the dressing room.

ALL of it was too big. That is just wrong. It's wrong that I can't eyeball my own size anymore (my own issue!) but it's even more wrong that a woman who is 5'4" and 150 lbs is wearing a size 6 in anything. And the tops I bought that were s,m,l? Yeah, I bought smalls but some of them were too big. That's insane. What in the world to the small people wear if I'm wearing XS in some things? And what the hell am I going to do when I get down to my goal? Kids clothing? Not with these hips, baby! Ugh.

[Owlie]

I bought a bunch of skorts and shorts at Eddie Bauer the other day. (Expensive, yes, but my parents have the discount thing, and it seems to be the only place I could get shorts that were more than 2cm long and didn't look ridiculous.) I came out with sizes 4 (the skorts) and 6 (shorts). I wear a 6 in some jeans, so that wasn't surprising. I could sit down in a size 2, and I could not find a pair of capris that I wasn't swimming in. I'm not exactly small.

I'm aware that the size inflation is crazy--I have a pair of size 10 jeans that I bought in high school (so...probably six or seven years ago) that fit perfectly. The same numerical size jeans (same company), bought a few years later, fall off. And DBF wonders why I hate shopping for clothes. :rolleyes:

[jessmarimba]

Emily, it wasn't so much that they run big - I'd guessed that! - but that, by their size chart, I have a 24" waist. Which I do not, and have not since I was probably, oh, 11? It's one thing to list a size 2 accurately as a 27" waist but to vanity-size your measurement chart is just insane.

[redrhodie]

Another reason for size discrepancies is the way clothes are mass produced. The fabric is placed in layers, then the pattern is cut out. The bottom of the stack will be less precise than the top, making for a slightly different size (I think the bottom layer comes out larger). So, you can get a small 4, or a large 4, of the exact same garment, in the same store. I was told this by a Gap manager.

[Crankin]

I often wonder this about the measurements. I most definitely do not have a 24 inch waist. It's 26 or 27. Yet, a lot of the size 2s or even 4s say 24-25 inches.
Red, that makes a lot of sense about the pattern cutting, and I know nothing about sewing. But, I actually like the Gap jeans as I just discovered the fact they make petite sizes and sell them on line. I know that even if they feel tight at first, they will stretch. I've bought a couple of pairs of "jeggings," and some skinny jeans that I couldn't fit into in any other brand, because I couldn't get them over my calves or thighs in a size that fit my waist. With Gap, I can buy my regular size and they fit because of the stretch.

[GLC1968]

Another reason for size discrepancies is the way clothes are mass produced. The fabric is placed in layers, then the pattern is cut out. The bottom of the stack will be less precise than the top, making for a slightly different size (I think the bottom layer comes out larger). So, you can get a small 4, or a large 4, of the exact same garment, in the same store. I was told this by a Gap manager.

That's true. Gap has been telling their customers (and employees) this for the past 25 years. I learned the exact same thing when I worked there in HS back in the 80's when Gap still carried Levi's!

[lph]

Another reason for size discrepancies is the way clothes are mass produced. The fabric is placed in layers, then the pattern is cut out. The bottom of the stack will be less precise than the top, making for a slightly different size (I think the bottom layer comes out larger). So, you can get a small 4, or a large 4, of the exact same garment, in the same store. I was told this by a Gap manager.

Hey, that makes sense.

They should market the "extra precise top layer garment", the way they market extra-virgin olive oil ;)

[ny biker]

Another reason for size discrepancies is the way clothes are mass produced. The fabric is placed in layers, then the pattern is cut out. The bottom of the stack will be less precise than the top, making for a slightly different size (I think the bottom layer comes out larger). So, you can get a small 4, or a large 4, of the exact same garment, in the same store. I was told this by a Gap manager.

They told me the same thing at J Jill. If I want to try on a pair of pants and they have more than one pair in my size, I will bring them all into the fitting room to compare them.

[malkin]

Another issue with cutting is that because the folds are not precise, the layers can get more and more off grain. Have you ever had that weird pair of pants where the side seam twists and ends up falling down the top of your foot?