Clipless and learning mountain biking

[Catrin]

I've been in a discussion over at MTBR on the wisdom of using clipless pedals at the Clinic in June. The advice I received was to not do it but to use platforms instead.

The only reason I am considering using clipless is that I don't come out of the saddle when I am road riding - and I think that I would be a lot more confident in learning how to do this in the Clinic if I am attached to my bike. My fitter adjusts my clipless pedals to a very, very light tension - so light that I don't fall over even when I forget that I am clipped in - it takes the tiniest amount of effort to get out of those pedals.

Then again, if I fall over multiple times because of the pedals - that won't exactly be good for my confidence either - though I fully expect and prepared to fall over a lot in the clinic since I will be learning totally new skills :o :cool:

Any thoughts about this from the wonderful mountain biking women of TE? Would YOU go to an introductory mountain bike clinic with clipless pedals?

[limewave]

Yes. Go clipless. I think it would be much better to learn the way you plan on riding than to learn with a crutch that may hold you back later. Especially if you are already used to that on your road bike. It will really help you with climbing and maneuvering.

[SheFly]

Can you practice with the clipless before the clinic so that you can easily get clipped in and out? If yes, definitely use them at the clinic.

To practice, go out on a lawn (so it is a soft landing), and just practice clipping in and out OVER and OVER until it becomes second nature. You can also do this with your bike in a door frame - hold the door frame and clip in and out.

Before long, the motion will become second nature. I NEVER think about getting into or out of my pedals - it just happens (but I have been using clipless on MTB and road for 15 years).

I agree with Limewave - use what you're going to ride when you are at the clinic, but some practice time beforehand should help reduce the spills you will take.

Have fun!

SheFly

[Catrin]

My LBS is switching pedals on both new bikes, and the cassette on the Jamis next week :) One of the LBS staff has already suggested I take it to a specific location and not only practice on the grass, but also practice clipping out going uphill - there is a very steep hill at this location and he suggested I go diagonally up the hill and practice clipping out.

I just returned to clipless on my LHT, which has gone quite well. Last year I got 4-500 miles on those pedals before I was taken off the bike.

It just has to stop raining so I can take my first paved spin on the Jamis! I need to get used to the SRAM triggers before I start practicing on grass. I do not have gear indicators on this bike, so that will also take some getting used to.

[Artista]

How about taking both clipless & platform pedals to the clinic along with 2 types of shoes? You could switch to platforms during a break if the clipless pedals aren't doing you any favors.

[Irulan]

Yes. Go clipless. I think it would be much better to learn the way you plan on riding than to learn with a crutch that may hold you back later. Especially if you are already used to that on your road bike. It will really help you with climbing and maneuvering.


I disagree. Having attending, and then coached many clinics, I strongly suggest flats. In addition, the professional coaches I work with strongly recommend flats. You can't force someone to change their pedals.

If you are trying something new, the last thing you need to be doing is monkeying around with clipping in to get started. In a clinic setting, there's a lot of sessioning, stop and go, and messing with clips can really affect initiation and suck away mental focus. That's the initiation part. Then there's the clipping out part. If you are trying something new: maybe a low skinny ( straight line riding) or a low teeter ( just for fun) or a descent that's more that you are used to... you might want to bail, FAST. Clips will keep you from doing this. You care going to be more injury prone with clips trying new things.

I ride clips normally, but switch out to flats for clinics.

[limewave]

I have never been to a clinic. Sounds like Irulan has the experience and makes some great points.

[Catrin]

Well, I have bought the pedals but there is no rule about having to install them right away. As it stands my seat post is, by necessity, too low until the Clinic. My LBS (several of their staff are certified instructors at the Clinic I am attending) has advised to leave it where it is until I learn how to mount/start the bike properly there. Between the higher bottom bracket + rear suspension it is going to be significantly higher than my other bikes...

After considering, I think I will wait until I am comfortable with my introductory skills before I add clipping in to the mix.

[gnat23]

Dirt Series had everyone switch to platforms. Their theory was "session in flats, race in clips" and "If you can do it on platforms, you can do it anywhere"

So you don't climb as efficiently; I would hope at a good clinic that there will be no extended climbing.

-- gnat! (just learned how to donkey kick on platforms, extremely satisfying!)

[Catrin]

My thought was that it would be easier to learn to come out of the saddle if I were attached to the bike. That being said, I found it MUCH easier to stand on the Jamis tonight when coasting down-hill than on my other bikes. Perhaps it won't make that big of a difference at first if I have good grippy shoes on...

[Catrin]

My thought was that it would be easier to learn to come out of the saddle if I were attached to the bike. That being said, I found it MUCH easier to stand on the Jamis tonight when coasting down-hill than on my other bikes. Perhaps it won't make that big of a difference at first if I have good grippy shoes on...

[jessmarimba]

I probably wouldn't. Because the falls that you are likely to encounter mountain biking are different than what you would experience clipped in on a road bike, and it can be frightening to not be experienced enough falling in crazy ways where you will instinctively unclip. I rode trails well under my skill level for a few weeks when I first got clipless pedals and I thought I was good to go, but my first major wreck with clipless pedals on the mountain bike was still horrifying and it was a much worse wreck than it would have been if I'd just been on platforms.

I don't want to discourage you from going clipless on a mountain bike, but in a clinic situation where you'll be learning new skills I think you would find it easier to have one less thing to concentrate on/worry about.

[Irulan]

My thought was that it would be easier to learn to come out of the saddle if I were attached to the bike. That being said, I found it MUCH easier to stand on the Jamis tonight when coasting down-hill than on my other bikes. Perhaps it won't make that big of a difference at first if I have good grippy shoes on...

Tip: think of it as standing up on your pedals, not coming out of the saddle.

Neutral position review:
*** off the saddle;)
standing on the pedals,pedals LEVEL not one up, one down, legs extended but not locked, NOT "hovering" over the saddle as if it were a nasty toilet seat.
Arms extended but not locked. Shoulders relaxed. One or two fingers only on brake, if they are disc brakes. Eyes looking ahead; down the trail.
This is the position from which everything in mountain biking starts.
Your weight is on the pedals. This is why you are standing on them, not "coming out of the saddle".

Now you'll be sitting and pedal on smooth trails, non technical stuff etc, but once you find lumpy bumpy trails with "stuff" on them... move into the neutral position and let your body work with the bike.


In the photo, our rider is in perfect neutral position... except she is looking at her front wheel instead of down the trail. The skill we were teaching ( I forget which) changed the eyes. Now some people will tell you she is standing up too tall, and that the 'hover over nasty toilet seat just an inch above the saddle" position is better... but this is what I've been taught, and how I teach it.
have fun.

[Catrin]

hmmmm, I've been doing it wrong then. I have one pedal up and one down, and a leg leaning against the bike. I have not tried to pedal when standing on the pedals yet...

[laura*]

I have one pedal up and one down,

This implies there's a skill you haven't had to learn yet. For some reason I refer to it as "pedal discipline". It's about being aware of your ground to pedal clearance at all times, and raising pedals to clear obstacles. Catching a pedal on something as you ride past will likely lead to a wreck.

This is needed a lot when MTB'ing, but also applies to road riding: You might be forced to ride right next to a curb. If you spin the cranks in a full circle, the curb side pedal will strike the curb. The solution is to coast or do short back and forth pedaling motions. Also, in a high speed turn you might be leaned way over. Unless you know the inside pedal won't hit the ground, you want to raise it and coast for safety's sake.

This reminds me a mountain path hereabouts: To the left are railroad tracks, to the right is a down slope. The narrow path makes one ride six inches from the ends of the railroad ties. Every now and then, the ground dips forcing the rider to raise her left pedal to clear the tie ends. And then suddenly up ahead on the right there's a mini retaining wall of boards held in place by metal rods pounded into the ground. Tie ends on the left and metal rods on the right! Eeek! :eek: Luckily I know I can coast through with the pedals held level.

[Susan]

You will see, standing on your pedals has nothing to do with "being attached to your bike" - really. I know sometimes there are thing that somehow "feel" safer or easier in your mind without a reason, so you have a gut feeling that you would prefer to do it in a certain way.
Standing on your bike is quite similar to standing on a scooter, quite relaxed.

The idea of being clipped in on a mountain bike is horrifying me. I have a good friend who is going clipless on his MTB, and he is a good rider, much better than me. I think being clipped in helps him in certain situations like small jumps or going uphill over big roots.
That said, I had so many situations where I had to get my feet on the ground REALLY fast, or had to balance me by putting one foot on the ground, or even going over the handlebars very unexpectedly I cannot trust clipless pedals on uneven ground.
On the other hand, lifting your rear wheel with flat pedals or jumping is more learning effort at first than doing the same things clipped in. Being one with your bike certainly gives you more control.
And I have some "nice" tattoos on my calves from the pins on my platforms.

[Catrin]

Thanks for all of the good information and advice! I am so much looking forward to the Clinic, and nervous at the same time :D

[Irulan]

hmmmm, I've been doing it wrong then. I have one pedal up and one down, and a leg leaning against the bike. I have not tried to pedal when standing on the pedals yet...

This is not intended as a slam, but it's classic roadie-to-mtb behavior. ;)

You will get so much out of the clinic...

Legs in contract with bike frame will give you lots of nice bruises, and makes for instability.
Notice in my little write up I specifically say, "don't hover"? The next classic beginner mistake is to get pedals levels, then hover above the seat, with the knees gripping or rather close to the frame or saddle.
One of the most primary skills in mountain biking, which the neutral position points you to, is body-bike-separation: getting your body to move independently of the bike.

Been discussed here before:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=38813&highlight=youtube

[Catrin]

Awesome, thank you! I will check out the link this evening :)

[amandar]

This has nothing to do with what you're asking, but if you're having trouble with standing to climb, it might help you to ride a single speed (with or without platforms) on the road for a while. I'm a newbie with mountain biking too, but thankfully climbing isn't that hard for me, and I think it's all do to the amount of time I spend out of saddle on my road bike.
Of course you can stand to climb on your geared road bike too, but the SS forces you to do it- or walk.
I'm out of the saddle all the time on my road bike, whether geared or ss- over tricky pavement, fighting a headwind (stupid, I know), or going up short steep hills.

Descending is my problem- if only those rocks would get out of my way I'd be golden. And I can't imagine learning with clipless, I'd probably kill myself.

[Irulan]

Standing to climb isn't typically done much on mountain bikes. This is why fit is so important. With the correct fit, you just scootch forward on the saddle, boobs to the tube, saddle at correct height, and you should be able to climb almost anything.

Standing for a climb on a mountain is usually only done in racing, or some other situation where you need a little power burst to get you over the top. I can't imagine doing sustained climb standing.

[amandar]

Oops, I thought being out of the saddle was her issue? I stand to climb everything, but where I live the hills are very short (southern new england)
I'm sure this wouldn't be effecient on a long climb.
My local trails are pretty flat but very techy, so that is what I'm learning to handle first.

Do you stand on your single speed?

[Irulan]

Do you stand on your single speed?


That, I do.

[amandar]

Okay good, that makes me feel better. I have been riding fixed and SS on the road for so long now that I forget what to do when I have gears. :o
I pretty much treat my mtb like an SS, that I happen to shift every once in a while. I thought about an SS mtb, but I like having that option to downshift, even if I don't use it that much.

[PscyclePath]

I disagree. Having attending, and then coached many clinics, I strongly suggest flats. In addition, the professional coaches I work with strongly recommend flats. You can't force someone to change their pedals.

If you are trying something new, the last thing you need to be doing is monkeying around with clipping in to get started. In a clinic setting, there's a lot of sessioning, stop and go, and messing with clips can really affect initiation and suck away mental focus. That's the initiation part. Then there's the clipping out part. If you are trying something new: maybe a low skinny ( straight line riding) or a low teeter ( just for fun) or a descent that's more that you are used to... you might want to bail, FAST. Clips will keep you from doing this. You care going to be more injury prone with clips trying new things.

I ride clips normally, but switch out to flats for clinics.

Agree... One thing that's worked well for me is to install a set of pedals that have an SPD clip on one side and flats on the other, rather than plain double-sided SPD or some other device. Shimano M-520s, I think they are. At any rate it makes it easier for me to ride in either regular shoes or bike shoes, and as Irulan points out, there's lot's of times when life is a whole lot easier with flat pedals.

[Catrin]

Agree... One thing that's worked well for me is to install a set of pedals that have an SPD clip on one side and flats on the other, rather than plain double-sided SPD or some other device. Shimano M-520s, I think they are. At any rate it makes it easier for me to ride in either regular shoes or bike shoes, and as Irulan points out, there's lot's of times when life is a whole lot easier with flat pedals.

I have these pedals, and I hate the flat side - my feet won't stay on them :( So I just ride the clipless side, and these are the only SPD pedals that have worked for me. I need a very light resistance, but we can't seem to get the dual SPD pedals to adjust that lightly. So the 520s are staying on my LHT for now, going to experiment with Frogs on my Gunnar, and BMX pedals are staying on my mountain bike for now. If I like the Frogs, they will also go on my LHT. I understand that Speedplay is coming out with a new kind of mountain bike pedal but it hasn't been released yet.

[Irulan]

eh, I give a thumbs down to the 1/2 & 1/2 pedals. Which ever side you want is always on the other side, and that split second of messing around with the pedal, flipping it over with your foot, is crucial sometimes.