growing up.. rambling

[lph]

There was an article in our newspaper this morning, about growing up, or rather, about being a "grown-up". It featured first a guy in his 40s, single and childless, who rock climbs, base jumps, skateboards and skis, and who (handily) has "I don't want to grow up" tattooed on his ankle. Then they had talked to a psychologist who said that this was a growing trend, that people want to stay/feel "young" for as long as possible, and they no longer want to be "grown-up" and boring, unlike teenagers earlier who longed to grow up and attain all the privileges of adults. And he talked about how todays focus on the body has taken over for earlier focus on the soul.

I found this pretty irritating, to tell the truth, and thought-provoking. I didn't like the implication that this guy filling his life with his favourite activities was so that he could feel "young" and have an attractive body, I'm sure he does them because it gives him immense joy and fulfillment (of the soul!), and because all his friends are there. He had a job so he pays taxes, and as far as I'm concerned he is being as responsible an adult as anyone could ask for. Because isn't that what being an adult is about? Taking responsibility, for your own life, your own choices, and the people around you? Having kids magically forces a lot of people to grow up, myself included, but actively choosing to not have children is just as responsible an action. Being an adult should have something to do with accepting that you play a role in society and participating and giving something back, and taking the consequences of your actions and choices, but it shouldn't have anything to do with how you spend your free time. Most "extreme sports" aren't that extreme these days - with a possible exception for base jumping - and I don't see why, say bowling or playing bridge should somehow be a more acceptable choice for an adult than rock climbing or skiing. People that do true extreme sports, with a lot of risk, do have to re-evaluate this when they have kids or a spouse, but they really are a tiny minority.

I'm rambling, I know. But being an adult doesn't have to have anything at all to do with being able to invite 4 couples to dinner and have matching silverware and decent curtains, being "respectable" ie. "boring", and hasn't been for decades. Todays society accepts rockabillies with pointy shoes or tutu-toting divas at 60. ---oops, gotta go, my responsible adult dh has made dinner... :)

[Crankin]

That idea kind of infuriates me, too. I want to stay as young as possible, forever. Not just in my body, but in my mind, also. Boring is, well, boring. If people don't like my lifestyle, well, so be it. I've always had a responsible job, blah, blah, blah.
This reminds me of the people who thought I was not acting "grown up" because 1) I got up at 4:30 AM and taught classes at the health club before my regular job, leaving the child care/bringing to daycare up to DH and 2) My DH and I went out as a couple, with or without friends, almost every Saturday night, even when the kids were babies. It seemed like "adults" only should want to be with their kids when they work outside the home during the week.
Yeah, well those people are all divorced and I'm still married.
Like the song says, I think I'll die, before I get old.

[TsPoet]

Has nothing to do with "growing up". In our overpopulated world, I'd say not having kids is the responsible thing to do! I also feel that 'coupling' has been brainwashed into us. I've always felt that way, and still feel that way, even though I have an SO.
We don't need to couple or have kids to be grown up or responsible. I like my life, I am active, I am busy, I have a job, I pay my taxes, I help out friends when I can...
I respect people with spouses (and ex-spouses) and children... but I don't think they are grown up and I'm not.

[lph]

yeah, that was what I was thinking - doing what you love or being "unconventional" (which is a pretty meaningless term nowadays) has nothing to do with being young or not grown-up. Young doesn't equate free, attractive, daring, and old doesn't equate the opposite. Young is just young. I'm not young anymore, I'm not old, I'm an adult. I'm also not a girl, I'm a grown woman, and there's nothing inherently boring or staid in that. And there's certainly nothing negative or boring about being grown-up - when life hits you a hard one, it's the grown-ups around you you need, who will take care of you, comfort you and pick up the pieces.

[tulip]

Yep. I spent most of my 20s worrying about appearing like a "grown woman" to the outside world. Really, all I wanted to do was ride my bike, but I worried so much that doing so would not be an "acceptable thing for a grown woman to do." HA!

So in my 30s, I figured out that I had been wrong and started riding my bike again. I started riding to work. I even declined a good, professional job because they looked at me askew when I asked about changing facilities and bicycle parking. Granted, I had another offer the same week so snubbing the first offer was easier to do. The job I took had a commuter shower and bike racks in the lobby, however. No brainer.

I chose a long time ago not to have children. I, too, think that it's the unselfish thing to do. Many people, however, feel that my choice is extremely selfish. I've given up trying to explain to them that because they have chosen to have 5 kids (an ex friend, for example), I feel that it is irresponsible for me to have any. I could have adopted, I suppose, but I was not interested enough in the whole endeavor to pursue that option.

I'm 43, I ride my bike, I do all sorts of goofy things, I pay my taxes, I am well-educated and have a good job, and I make a difference in the world. Frankly, I'd rather spend my time with older folks than with children. I believe alot of older folks become forgotten. I really enjoy visiting with them and sharing their stories with them. That's where I choose to devote my energies. That and on my bike and in my community.

[shootingstar]

I found this pretty irritating, to tell the truth, and thought-provoking. I didn't like the implication that this guy filling his life with his favourite activities was so that he could feel "young" and have an attractive body, I'm sure he does them because it gives him immense joy and fulfillment (of the soul!), and because all his friends are there. He had a job so he pays taxes, and as far as I'm concerned he is being as responsible an adult as anyone could ask for. Because isn't that what being an adult is about? Taking responsibility, for your own life, your own choices, and the people around you? Having kids magically forces a lot of people to grow up, myself included, but actively choosing to not have children is just as responsible an action. Being an adult should have something to do with accepting that you play a role in society and participating and giving something back, and taking the consequences of your actions and choices, but it shouldn't have anything to do with how you spend your free time.

I would agree all that is said. I think the news article was written wrongly with a certain slant that makes those without childcare, eldercare responsibilities etc. as "less" responsible.

[channlluv]

See, I'm thinking the responsible thing to do is to buy my 12-year-old her own road bike so we can go riding together. That way I don't miss my workouts. I'll be healthier and live longer to be a better mother to her. And we'll bond over cycling.

I don't see how staying healthy and vital and active is at all irresponsible, especially if one has kids, but either way, a healthy, vital population is just better for the community as a whole all the way around. There are no downsides to living an active life.

lph, I think you should write a letter to the editor of that paper and voice what you've voiced here.

Roxy

[TsPoet]

There was an article in our newspaper this morning, about growing up, or rather, about being a "grown-up".

I've never written to the editor of a newspaper, but have you thought about it?

Also, I do like his tattoo, it's tongue in cheek and talks about a lifestyle (to me) not really about being grown up.

[OakLeaf]

There was a time when I lived in a small-ish town but occasionally had to work in the city. For a long time, I liked getting stuck in rush hour traffic because it made me feel grown up.

Looking back on it now, I think that says it all. :cool:

[mudmucker]

How sad that this may be a trend - that there are those that have found themselves amongst a narrowly defined set of rules or limited thinking. Life is for living and all options are on the table. It's just another opinion out there in the world. Fortunately and as expected, this does not appear to be a prevalent one as expressed by the responses thus far. Nor of the people who are in my life.


YI believe alot of older folks become forgotten. I really enjoy visiting with them and sharing their stories with them. That's where I choose to devote my energies.
I love this statement!!! How true that a very valuable part of our community sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. Their stories are so important.

[Irulan]

Personally knowing a lot of guys like this, (climbers, ski bums, raft guides etc) they are commitment phobes, immature and self centered, and place the adrenaline need pretty high up on the list. They DO need to grow up. Anyone remember the Peter Pan syndrome?

The comment on the focus on the body... that's lame imsho. if they would "study" these guys at all, it's all about the rush, the lack of being tied down, the rush of adrenaline and the toy collection, not a youthful body.

[Eden]

So what.... if someone doesn't want to conform to another person's idea of what it means to be "grown up"... You don't have to like everyone - let them be little boys/girls forever if they want to be.

[bcipam]

Funny... just recently my friends and I were sitting around and talking about the fact kids, really young adults, are refusing to grow up and become responsible. Really its not so attractive to find 40 year old people who want to act and be like 18 year olds. It's down right creepy if you ask me.

I think since the 80's when parents wanted to be hip themselves and much rather be their kids friends than parents, we have allowed kids to be indulged much too much - anything than wanted they got; nothing was earned; every desire was granted; nothing was appreciated. Now we have several generations of adults who don't know how to deny themselves and when they dont get what they want, become depressed and angry about it just like any 2 year old. Think about it? Is that really desirable and attractive?.

Hey I'm 60 - I act young at times but with that sense of playfulness also comes with a big sense of responsibilty and being an adult. BTW any married person with young children who engages in high risk sports is to me, an idiot. That person thinks so little of his/her family that for a little bit of pleasure they are willing to risk the families viability. Stupid, just stupid.

[indysteel]

Personally knowing a lot of guys like this, (climbers, ski bums, raft guides etc) they are commitment phobes, immature and self centered, and place the adrenaline need pretty high up on the list. They DO need to grow up. Anyone remember the Peter Pan syndrome?

Just to play devil's advocate: But for whose benefit do they need to grow up? I have no real issue with men or women who essentially just live for themselves, so long as they don't otherwise have a responsibility for/to anybody else, i.e., a spouse or child, or do anybody else any real harm. Now I may not choose to associate much with them, but that doesn't mean they're in the wrong.

Maybe it's a function of what I do and where I live, but I know very few people of the ski-bum variety. Instead, I know a lot of workaholic (mostly) men, who use their jobs as a way to avoid being a full-time spouse or parent. To me, that's not particularly grown up either, although it is a lot more socially acceptable. For me, it's all about living honestly. If you're a commitment phobe, then don't get married under the pretense that you are committed. If you really don't want to parent, then don't have children. If you want to live for yourself, then don't make anybody else dependent on your income, your time or your focus. If you don't want to work hard enough to make decent money, then fine, but don't mooch off of anybody else.

[OakLeaf]

Probably related to what Irulan said is an unfolding scandal in Volusia County (Daytona Beach) Beach Patrol, where male career lifeguards in their 30s and 40s preyed on female lifeguards and sunbathers in their late teens, without regard for whether they were work subordinates, or legally of age to consent.

There is a phenomenon, no doubt, but I'm not sure from what lph said that her paper's article describes it.

Just to be devil's advocate, again, that male immaturity isn't necessarily victimless.

[Eden]

Scumbags aren't limited to the carefree, childless types.... lots appear to be good solid family men from the outside....

[tulip]

BTW any married person with young children who engages in high risk sports is to me, an idiot. That person thinks so little of his/her family that for a little bit of pleasure they are willing to risk the families viability. Stupid, just stupid.

Or who drives...

[indysteel]

Probably related to what Irulan said is an unfolding scandal in Volusia County (Daytona Beach) Beach Patrol, where male career lifeguards in their 30s and 40s preyed on female lifeguards and sunbathers in their late teens, without regard for whether they were work subordinates, or legally of age to consent.

There is a phenomenon, no doubt, but I'm not sure from what lph said that her paper's article describes it.

Just to be devil's advocate, again, that male immaturity isn't necessarily victimless.

Agreed, which is why I said I didn't have a problem with it UNLESS it did somebody else harm. That said, I'm not sure "male immaturity" fully explains what happened in Daytona. Those men are pigs.

[indysteel]

Or who drives...

or rides a bike.

Honestly, I'm hesitant to make TOO many generalizations when it comes to this topic. It's posssible to be a responsible ski instructor and to be an extremely irresponsible Wall Street banker or school board member. There are a lot of variables that go into how productive, mature and responsible we are as people.

[GLC1968]

I agree with most of what has been said here and when I read LPH's original post, I admit to bristling to the descriptions right along with her.

I didn't get married until I was 35 and even then, I only did it because I found a man whom I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. It had nothing to do with wanting to build a family or 'grow up'. In fact, by the author's definition, I'm sure we are not really grown ups. We don't have kids. We change careers all the time (not just me!), we moved across the country on a whim, he climbs mountains, I do triathlons, we both cycle, eat unhealthy foods, etc...

On the flip side, we are both educated and hold good jobs, we own a house, we have purchased life insurance, we have no cc debt and we have 25+ animals that depend on us for their lives...if that's not responsible and 'grown up', I'm not sure what is.

That said, I'm not sure I know what it feels like to be grown up. I hope I never do. ;)

Indysteel - I agree with your thoughts about if commitentment phobes or whomever actually need to grow up. As long as they are not a drain on anyone else or on society as a whole, then why does it matter how they choose to spend their lives?

[rubywagon]

BTW any married person with young children who engages in high risk sports is to me, an idiot. That person thinks so little of his/her family that for a little bit of pleasure they are willing to risk the families viability. Stupid, just stupid.

I am not sure how to reply to this, but I think you just called me an idiot. And stupid. :confused:

[bcipam]

I am not sure how to reply to this, but I think you just called me an idiot. And stupid. :confused:

Sorry I don't know you - are you a professional skydriver? Or Bungee Jumper? or Motocross rider? I did say high risk - I don't consider bicycling a HIGH risk sport...

that said if you have a husband and small children then yes I think it foolish you risk your life for pleasure... just my opinion.

edited to add: If you engage in sports such as free riding--- mountain biking off cliff faces, then I would consider that high risk.

[rubywagon]

Ha. Okay.

[Crankin]

The whole article just reeks of ageism. It made me bristle. If someone wants to be an immature, risk taker, who cares? I've known people like this (men and women) and as long as they don't affect anyone else, it doesn't bother me.
I think, generally, if you lead a lifestyle that is any little bit non-conventional, many people think you are immature or just plain weird. I may have the house in a nice suburb, etc., but I did it all in a somewhat unconventional way. I got married after knowing my DH for 6 months, I've had lots of jobs, and we moved across the country, giving up 2 good jobs and a beautiful house because we wanted our kids to have a certain lifestyle/cultural values. Did people have trouble with this? Oh yeah. And DH being a house husband while I worked? Not too common in 1982/3.
You know, people didn't think it was weird when I spent all my time at the gym, teaching aerobics. Or, when DH and DS started riding. But, when I started riding and all the other stuff I do, that was weird.

[Cataboo]

Unfortunately a lot of these guys die with young children... Shane Mckonkey, whoever it was that died in that storm on everest however many years ago who got to use his satellite phone to talk to his wife & 6 month old child.

That always infuriates me.


Just to play devil's advocate: But for whose benefit do they need to grow up? I have no real issue with men or women who essentially just live for themselves, so long as they don't otherwise have a responsibility for/to anybody else, i.e., a spouse or child, or do anybody else any real harm. Now I may not choose to associate much with them, but that doesn't mean they're in the wrong.

Maybe it's a function of what I do and where I live, but I know very few people of the ski-bum variety. Instead, I know a lot of workaholic (mostly) men, who use their jobs as a way to avoid being a full-time spouse or parent. To me, that's not particularly grown up either, although it is a lot more socially acceptable. For me, it's all about living honestly. If you're a commitment phobe, then don't get married under the pretense that you are committed. If you really don't want to parent, then don't have children. If you want to live for yourself, then don't make anybody else dependent on your income, your time or your focus. If you don't want to work hard enough to make decent money, then fine, but don't mooch off of anybody else.

[bcipam]

Unfortunately a lot of these guys die with young children... Shane Mckonkey, whoever it was that died in that storm on everest however many years ago who got to use his satellite phone to talk to his wife & 6 month old child.

That always infuriates me.

Perfect example of what I was speaking about... I realize the man who lost his life made a living leading teams up Everest but maybe he should have waited to get married and have children... but to each their own.

[mudmucker]

I think, generally, if you lead a lifestyle that is any little bit non-conventional, many people think you are immature or just plain weird. I may have the house in a nice suburb, etc., but I did it all in a somewhat unconventional way. I got married after knowing my DH for 6 months, I've had lots of jobs, and we moved across the country, giving up 2 good jobs and a beautiful house because we wanted our kids to have a certain lifestyle/cultural values. Did people have trouble with this? Oh yeah. And DH being a house husband while I worked? Not too common in 1982/3.
You know, people didn't think it was weird when I spent all my time at the gym, teaching aerobics. Or, when DH and DS started riding. But, when I started riding and all the other stuff I do, that was weird.

I disagree about the leading a lifestyle/little bit non-conventional part and people thinking you are immature or weird. It's relative to our experiences and exposures for sure. I grew up in Western MA where my exposure to lifestyle options and choices span the gamut and not viewed unfavorably. What you consider to have done in a non-conventional way would be viewed as quite conventional and even main-stream based on my point of view and what I've seen around me in my younger years. And we are not far off in ages. Really, none of it is really that weird or unconventional at all.

[Mr. Bloom]

Agreed, which is why I said I didn't have a problem with it UNLESS it did somebody else harm. That said, I'm not sure "male immaturity" fully explains what happened in Daytona. Those men are pigs.

I agree that it's not a maturity issue, that's a function of not knowing appropriate limits...and knowing appropriate limits is not a function of age as much as it is upbringing and/or social environment (or borderline personality traits).

...and it's not a uniquely "male" issue...Mary Kay Letourneau might be a case in point of one not knowing proper limits with her 14 yr old student/lover.

[Crankin]

Mudmucker, I've also been exposed to lots of lifestyles (after all, I did grow up in the 60's), but moving away from the east coast, that kind of went out of the window. That's why I wanted to move back... AZ is very conservative, and while my own friends weren't, the whole atmosphere really bothered me. I know my lifestyle isn't weird, but in my social/cultural group, it was. No one else worked when their kids were little, even though they all were highly educated. My DH was considered "unique." When my friends started flying to LA to buy jewelry, that was it. I had to leave.
In general, I've always wanted to do things a little differently, and guess what? Both of my kids are just like me!

[mudmucker]

Mudmucker, I've also been exposed to lots of lifestyles (after all, I did grow up in the 60's), but moving away from the east coast, that kind of went out of the window. That's why I wanted to move back... AZ is very conservative, and while my own friends weren't, the whole atmosphere really bothered me. I know my lifestyle isn't weird, but in my social/cultural group, it was. No one else worked when their kids were little, even though they all were highly educated. My DH was considered "unique." When my friends started flying to LA to buy jewelry, that was it. I had to leave.
In general, I've always wanted to do things a little differently, and guess what? Both of my kids are just like me!

Yes, regional differences. I find that even in a small "liberal" micro-region such as MA, having lived in both. There are big differences between the western and eastern part of the state in terms of attitudes and personal life choices, as little territory that we are. Bravo to you for bucking the trend. Live and let live.

[OakLeaf]

I hope that equal vehemence is reserved for parents of young children, who don't exercise at all - who eat a poor diet - who refuse mental health assistance when needed - or who otherwise endanger their ability to support their family. Is pleasure more immoral than laziness?

[Crankin]

I'll second that one, Oakleaf.
Mr. Bloom, I bet you saw the interview with Mary kay Letourneau on the Today Show this morning. Her responses were frightening. I am embarrassed to say she went to the School of Education at ASU, where I went.

[Irulan]

Sorry I don't know you - are you a professional skydriver? Or Bungee Jumper? or Motocross rider? I did say high risk - I don't consider bicycling a HIGH risk sport...

that said if you have a husband and small children then yes I think it foolish you risk your life for pleasure... just my opinion.

edited to add: If you engage in sports such as free riding--- mountain biking off cliff faces, then I would consider that high risk.

Well, I resemble that remark: my DH is a class 5whitewater boater, it's his passion. And you know what? The decisions we make that are right for our family are just that: right for our family. It's totally inappropriate for you to make judgments like that... I mean, mind your own business if it's not affecting you personally. I'm sure you do things with your family that I might not approve of, or even be offended by, but I keep my opinions and judging to myself.

My son is also a whitewater boater. I let my children do high risk activities too!

Suggested reading:
Forget Me Not by Jennifer Lowe-Anker, memoir by the widow of Alex Lowe, one of the world's foremost mountaineers who was killed in a climbing accident.

http://www.amazon.com/Forget-Me-Not-Jennifer-Lowe-anker/dp/159485274X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296259675&sr=8-1

[Irulan]

So what.... if someone doesn't want to conform to another person's idea of what it means to be "grown up"... You don't have to like everyone - let them be little boys/girls forever if they want to be.

It's only a problem if you are in a relationship with them and have unrealistic expectations of wanting them to change and they don't want to. :p

[tangentgirl]

I don't know. Sounds like that article is reaching, trying to drum up a story that was only really a story 50 years ago.

[PamNY]

Scumbags aren't limited to the carefree, childless types.... lots appear to be good solid family men from the outside....
Yes, indeed. Quite a few. And women, too, for that matter. Personally, I like an honest commitment-phobe more than a philandering-but-married Little League coach.

I don't see what's wrong with adults who live for themselves (as someone put it earlier). Most of my friends are single and focus on their own passions and interests -- and why not?

I wonder if time spent on art/museums/theater/concerts would seem immature to the writer of the article lph mentioned? There's really no difference in those activities and sports -- except that, I guess, they are more conventional, especially as one gets older.

[shootingstar]

This Canadian travelogue writer did write about the extreme sports and the dark side (meaning risks).

She interviews people with children, who's spouses died in the big quest...mountaineering..etc.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30214.Where_the_Mountain_Casts_Its_Shadow

But I wonder how much more riskier they are compared to doing a long bike touring ride for months solo on some busy highways.

[emily_in_nc]

I think, generally, if you lead a lifestyle that is any little bit non-conventional, many people think you are immature or just plain weird. I may have the house in a nice suburb, etc., but I did it all in a somewhat unconventional way. I got married after knowing my DH for 6 months, I've had lots of jobs, and we moved across the country, giving up 2 good jobs and a beautiful house because we wanted our kids to have a certain lifestyle/cultural values. Did people have trouble with this? Oh yeah. And DH being a house husband while I worked? Not too common in 1982/3.

Yes, that's true, and it cuts across all age lines, really. My brother is in his mid 40s, a surfer, artist, and comic store owner. He's intelligent, funny as h-e-l-l, and culturally aware. He's also single (one early marriage) with no kids. He would LOVE to fall in love and be in a committed relationship again, but women he meets in their 30s and 40s find him too unconventional and too poor. I'm sure some would call him immature simply because of the life he lives and because he dresses like a surfer/skater instead of a middle-aged man. They want more conventional men who drive nicer cars and bring home steadier paychecks. And he has a hard time relating intellectually to the women in their 20s who do find him and his alternative lifestyle exciting. I worry that he'll never find love again because of the disconnect between his lifestyle and age. It's too bad because he's no selfish Peter Pan. He surfs for the love of it and the exilaration it brings him, not to have a "cut" body. I know he's lonely, though.

And I too know that people think my DH and I are weird, especially because we live in the conservative/traditional southeast. We don't have children. He's a house-husband (after getting laid off in the telecom bust), I support him. He volunteers for Habitat and takes care of our dog, does the shopping, etc. We moved from our nice house in the country to a small apartment and sold one of our two cars, so my DH gets around by foot, bike, and bus. I drive as little as possible, and we walk or take the bus places most people of our ages and income would only drive. We've moved a lot, including two moves out of and back to NC, leaving and coming back to the same jobs! And now we're trumping all our previous adventures by buying a condo in Belize.

But you know, the older I get, the more I relish being different! People can think what they want to, but I love not living a "typical" upper-middle class existence in the suburbs, keeping up a lawn, and spending the weekends maintaining the yard. Been there, done that, don't miss it a bit. I'd much rather be out riding my bike or walking somewhere. I love not feeling any compunction to "keep up with the Joneses", as I did in my 20s and 30s. If there's one really good thing about aging, it's just this. Being comfortable in one's own skin and finally figuring out who you are and what matters to you. Some people seem to figure that out relatively young; some of us take a bit longer. But when you do hit upon it and realize "this is the life I was meant to live; this is me", it feels really, really good. :p

Sorry for the ramble!

[emily_in_nc]

I hope that equal vehemence is reserved for parents of young children, who don't exercise at all - who eat a poor diet - who refuse mental health assistance when needed - or who otherwise endanger their ability to support their family. Is pleasure more immoral than laziness?

Where's that little clapping smiley when you need him!

CLAP-CLAP-CLAP!!!!

[shootingstar]

I think someone else said earlier...maturity is simply how live well, without going out of one's way to hurt someone else nor self. Also simply take simple accountability for one's actions and not expect everyone is going to financially bail you out, etc. yaddydayaddyda

Accidents in life happen.

And having harmonious relationships with people who matter most in one's life.

Who cares about fashion, activities, what a house/car/bike ..looks like. :rolleyes:
Emily nc: It wouldn't be surprising that alot of women that he meets, are judging him by his lifestyle and wallet size. I hate to sound so brutal: But there are ALOT of women who still want a guy loaded with money and to look like "stable" provider. I recall a stupid discussion thread elsewhere about whether or not a woman should pay half for restaurant meal with her date/bf. Why wouldn't a woman do this nowadays if she was working to earn money and decided already together on the restaurant??

[smilingcat]

One of many reasons why I love reading threads here. Thought provoking.

The idea of "if you don't create victims" then its your biz seems like a good basis of determining about acting ones age/maturity...

Unfortunately, this too suffers from moral judgment. If one has young children and loves to base jump, most will agree that he is being immature and not acting his age. That may be true. So what if the same man were to golf. It too carries risk. Bing Crosby died of heart attack while playing round of golf. Driving a car does carry risks. More die from cars than from air-plane crash. both in numbers and miles per person driven. But social and moral judgment is that golf and driving a car is considered acceptable. Granted the rate of death is far lower than high altitude mountaineering or base jumping.

And would your perception change if the man was wealthy enough so that the children can be well taken care of after the man's untimely death. Conversely, if the man were playing golf and dies but leaves nothing for his children and children ends up in abject poverty. Is this still acceptable?

I think the original post by LPH and the writer of the article that got this whole thing started is that the writer was voicing her own opinion of social acceptability and the sliding scale of acceptability based on age.

I have no answer to moral question. It all boils down to one's perception of acceptability one's belief in what constitute a right or wrong e.g. Roe vs Wade, Brown vs Board of Education, Loving vs state of Va (interracial marriage was banned in VA till this case but it wasn't till the 60's that the law was taken off the book). or 19th amendment giving us the right to vote. Many women were brutally beaten for this right 100 years ago. Men didn't think it was morally right for women to vote.

One thing I will say is this: moral judgment based on person's age really needs to be thrown out in trash.

[lph]

This started an interesting discussion, cool :)

Originally I reacted to two things in the article: first of all the implication that being deeply involved in various sports was somehow immature and irresponsible in itself, without taking into consideration any other aspects of that persons life. Like many of you, I feel that it's bizarre to assign certain activities to the young and others to the "old". (See, even I don't want to use the word old). I do feel that there is a moral issue when it comes to extremely high-risk activities and families, but that is hardly a large problem and one solved best by each family, and bringing in skiing and rock climbing into that kind of discussion implies that family life should be completely risk-free. What is important is the balance of time you spend on different things, whether it's at the office or on the ski slopes or with your family.

But I also don't like the idea that being grown-up - i.e. not young - is somehow not desirable. I do think that there is a trend where everybody wants to be young practically until they're carted into a home, and being grown-up or an adult is just too uncool to be desirable. But that really is an idea that needs to be defused imo. Being an adult is no longer about the facade stuff, but still is about being a real, responsible, mature human being, and lord knows the world needs more of those. I think maybe we're just buying into the whole "young is good"-thing by talking about how someone acts young or looks young or whatever, when what we mean is that that person is competitive or alert or energetic, does activities she loves, and looks fit or happy. There is a whole lot to be said for being an adult. Take Adult Back! :D

Besides. The terror of being "boring" (I have an advantage here being the only one who's read the article except maybe DoW :p) is just stupid. Life is boring sometimes. But to get what you want, you have to do the boring stuff too. And maybe what looks like boring or staid is fulfilling too, in a smaller-scale and more introvert way.

Anyway. My main point was really that being an adult is or should be a good and desirable thing that implies maturity and responsibility to yourself and the people you care about and who care about you, and should have very little to do with anything else.

PS. Some nuances may be lost in translation here, the Norwegian word translates most directly to "grown-up" IMO. It's used to denote someone fully grown, definitely not a teenager, and sometimes - often - a euphemism for middle-aged (!) Such is the terror of not being young...

[lph]

For me, it's all about living honestly. If you're a commitment phobe, then don't get married under the pretense that you are committed. If you really don't want to parent, then don't have children. If you want to live for yourself, then don't make anybody else dependent on your income, your time or your focus. If you don't want to work hard enough to make decent money, then fine, but don't mooch off of anybody else.

Indysteel - well said!

[OakLeaf]

PS. Some nuances may be lost in translation here, the Norwegian word translates most directly to "grown-up" IMO. It's used to denote someone fully grown, definitely not a teenager, and sometimes - often - a euphemism for middle-aged (!) Such is the terror of not being young...

Kind of like the way Americans use the word "mature" to mean post-menopausal, or whatever the male equivalent is.

[lph]

oh - and I wanted to add - thank you! everybody for pitching in and making this such an interesting discussion. This is really the only place I can discuss semi-philosphical/moral issues with more than just one or two people at a time, and part of what I really appreciate about this forum.

[Catrin]

So what.... if someone doesn't want to conform to another person's idea of what it means to be "grown up"... You don't have to like everyone - let them be little boys/girls forever if they want to be.

This is an interesting discussion. What it means to be "grown up" appears to be changing - and that happens. What I find more interesting is this idea that to be "grown up" = is to be boring and frozen at a certain level of development. I do not think that has ever been the case but it appears to be a common perception of what it means to be "adult".

Given that is the current perception of what it means to be "grown up" it is understandable that people rail against it. To be an adult, at least to me, is to take responsibility for both physical and spiritual development - they can't be separated and I think we get in trouble when we do separate them. Certainly there must be a balance in all things, and as a single 51 year old woman, what might be a responsible choice for me might be an irresponsible choice for a 25 year old mother with partner and children - it all has to be in context and it seems that in many cases that is what is lacking - that context.

I don't understand why/how certain activities, such as cycling/rock climbing/whatever appear to be considered for a certain age group only. Obviously we (TE members) do not buy into that ;)

It is all about choices and what matters most to us. For some of is it is most important to be in a certain income bracket - and for some of us it is not - but our health and physical condition play such a key role in our interior development, emotional/mental health and how we interact with the world around us that it is just too important to neglect. Of course, this is coming from someone who has made that mistake for much of her adult life :o

[jelee1311]

I have a husband and a child,I just turned 40 and I plan on going skydiving this year.I cant imagine it any more dangerous than having my daughter 9 years ago and very nearly dying.Or the horrible bike wreck my husband survived a few years ago that left his teammate in the hospital for 6months.I still worry less about him than before he started riding, was 30lbs overweight and smoked 2 packs of cigs a day. I don't plan on being boring or acting my age anytime soon especially since I could just as easily die by mundane things. A masters athlete I once met was 76 and ran hurdles (at a time when many worry about breaking a hip)she started racing at 70.Quite the inspiration:)

[Mr. Bloom]

I just saw 127 Hours with my son yesterday (Pfew-Intense!) about Aron Ralston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Ralston), who cut off his arm after being trapped for days in a climbing accident.

By many standards discussed in this thread, society may not have considered him "grown up"; he left an engineering job with Intel to work in a hiking shop and do more rock climbing, he seemed "to live to climb", etc.

But, while I'm certain that the movie takes license in its rendition of the event, the true test of maturity is that he SURVIVED a hopeless ordeal through SKILL, DETERMINATION, PERSEVERANCE, and perhaps a little bit of luck.

In addition, according to quotes of this article (http://www.wideworldmag.com/features/127-hours-in-the-life-of-aron-ralston), he turned "lemons into lemonade" by continuing a prolific passion for climbing with continued success.

OK, he married and had a kid later in life and "played" a lot for 35 years, but in my opinion, while he was not socially perfect, he sure proved he was grown up in a narrow canyon near Moab.

[OakLeaf]

I posted a couple of thoughts in Zombeav's doomed thread :( but they're relevant here, too, I think.

It seems that when people reach a certain age, we tend to convince ourselves (or succumb to welcome brainwashing by commercial interests) that we're immortal. Not only don't we plan for our deaths (emotionally, I mean, obviously many people plan financially, with the assistance of a different group of commercial interests :rolleyes:), but we're willing to sacrifice huge chunks of the quality of our lives for an uncertain promise of more quantity. I read recently that the increases in life expectancy that have occurred in western countries over recent decades, have been accompanied by an actual DECREASE in the number of years of healthy life a person can expect.

Maybe, pretending that you're not going to die, and pretending it's impossible that you might die soon, is what's considered "grown up" in western societies.

Maybe, cognizance of one's own mortality is a luxury of childless persons, and that's why forgetting it is considered grown up. The idea that your children might die with you in a mass catastrophe - or that you might orphan your children - is unthinkable. (But I don't think that's really the case, since people in past generations dealt every day with their own mortality as well as their children's.) So doing something "risky" that makes your mortality evident to other people is considered immature.

I think about this a lot, because people "our age" tend to accuse young people of acting as though they think they're immortal, when I believe it's exactly the opposite. Young people think about death frequently and accept that it could come to them at any minute. It's when we've reached 40 or 50 and it hasn't happened to us yet, that we start believing it's never going to.

[Crankin]

I agree, Oakleaf. I cannot stand the thought of death. It scares the crap out of me. You're here and then you're gone. No one knows what it feels like.
While I have had minimum trouble dealing with the death of others, I absolutely do not want to think about my own mortality. It's easier for me to think about one of my kids dying than to think of myself dying; something I've been forced to do having a kid in the military.
I know some will say it's because of my lack of a concept of "the after-life," and it is true my religion emphasizes life here on earth. I don't feel like I am waiting to be reunited with others who have died. It's sort of a feeling like we are doomed to begin with.

[malkin]

It probably says something about my level of maturity or up-grownedness that I went snooping around for the article and ended up playing this game:

http://www.aftenposten.no/reise/test_quiz/article3906784.ece

[lph]

heheh :) I'll post it for you when I find it, it was in A-magasinet.

[Deborajen]

If the guy being written about has a tattoo that says "I don't want to grow up," I'd assume he doesn't feel grown up - and he's o.k. with it - ? My dad has always joked that he doesn't want to grow up. He flies sailplanes and refers to them as his "toys." Dad helped raise four kids, he was serious about his responsibilities but he also liked to "play" - flying. So what? Sounds to me like the author might be jealous or have no sense of humor - he needs to lighten up!

As far as trying to stir things up by saying people are getting more concerned about their bodies than their souls, well, like a lot of people, the author just doesn't get it. Staying active and fit are good things, and physical activity isn't necessarily all about the body. Physical activity produces endorphins - we at TE know what good those do, don't we? For me, if I'm going to live to be in my 80's or 90's like my grandparents, turning 40, which people like to refer to as "over the hill," is only around the midpoint and I don't intend to spend over half my life being inactive and letting the body go. Now if the author had referenced people getting divorced and walking out on spouse and kids so they can go off and do extreme sports that get them into trouble to where they have to be rescued, putting rescuers in danger and costing taxpayers a lot of money and raising everyone's insurance premiums, now that would be selfish, irresponsible, and definitely "not grown up" - in a bad way. But, like I said before, I think the author just doesn't get it. A lot of people don't. We can't make them, either. Their loss. It sells newspapers.--

[limewave]

I'm going to throw in my 2-cents:

It goes back to when we were kids and told that people "put-down" others to "elevate" themselves. I believe there's an element of jealousy.

Wouldn't we all just love to feel young and free and not have the weight of responsibility holding us down?

I have a lot of friends in their 30's and 40's that are choosing to either stay single or not have kids because they have active lifestyles that they love. They don't want to give that up. Does that mean they aren't grown-up? No, I think it just means they know themselves, know what they want, and are making those decisions for themselves. It's great!

To me, not being "grown-up" would mean you don't take responsibility for yourself. It has nothing to do with what positive activities you fill your life with.

[badger]

I didn't read all 4 pages, so hopefully I'm not repeating what someone's said or completely off the mark.

It really is an interesting discussing as to what exactly being grown up means.

I'm turning 40 later in March this year. While I was in my late teens and all of my twenties, it never crossed my mind that I wouldn't be married and childless. But as I entered my thirties, I really started questioning whether I really wanted kids. With them comes all sorts of responsibility I may not want to shoulder.

Now that I'm hitting 40 and soon it won't be a choice anymore to not have kids. I'm hoping I won't regret it, but it's not like I have a burning desire to be a mother.

I went snowboarding over the weekend and my mother commented that all I seem to do is play, but is that so wrong? Like the guy in the article, I'm gainfully employed, own my own place, pay my taxes and haven't been in trouble with the law or anything. I just happen to not taken the road of becoming a wife and mother.

I think we're becoming very self-focused these days, "what can we do to make our lives better?" instead of in the past "what can I do to make my family's life better?" And for those who choose not to have a family, is it so wrong to do things that make our lives better?

[Biciclista]

It probably says something about my level of maturity or up-grownedness that I went snooping around for the article and ended up playing this game:

http://www.aftenposten.no/reise/test_quiz/article3906784.ece

Malkin, what's that game about? (Can't read it)

It's always easy for one generation to look down on the next ones. As a mother, i have fits about my sons not taking seriously the same things I did.

[Crankin]

Well, mostly my kids have similar views as mine, as far as what's important, although they are both leading different lifestyles as far as compared to what I was doing at their age. My oldest son's wife is just about 31... when I was that age I had one kid, was pg with the second, had my master's degree, and was on my second house. She is just finding herself career wise, and seems much younger than I was, although she is not immature. It's just different.

[indysteel]

I didn't read all 4 pages, so hopefully I'm not repeating what someone's said or completely off the mark.

It really is an interesting discussing as to what exactly being grown up means.

I'm turning 40 later in March this year. While I was in my late teens and all of my twenties, it never crossed my mind that I wouldn't be married and childless. But as I entered my thirties, I really started questioning whether I really wanted kids. With them comes all sorts of responsibility I may not want to shoulder.

Now that I'm hitting 40 and soon it won't be a choice anymore to not have kids. I'm hoping I won't regret it, but it's not like I have a burning desire to be a mother.

I went snowboarding over the weekend and my mother commented that all I seem to do is play, but is that so wrong? Like the guy in the article, I'm gainfully employed, own my own place, pay my taxes and haven't been in trouble with the law or anything. I just happen to not taken the road of becoming a wife and mother.

I think we're becoming very self-focused these days, "what can we do to make our lives better?" instead of in the past "what can I do to make my family's life better?" And for those who choose not to have a family, is it so wrong to do things that make our lives better?

I've struggled with some of these same questions. I didn't get married until I was approaching 41. Even before that, I was lukewarm at best about having children. I just didn't feel a huge desire for it. Growing up in a less than loving home may have something to do with that, but I don't think it fully explains my ambivalence. I recognized a long time ago that I can only handle so much stress before I go off the deep end. While I've learned how better to cope with stress, I think my breaking point is still far lower than I generally think is necessary to be an effective parent. So, while I feel like it's out of selfishness than I've decided against kids, it's a selfless act, too.

In any event, my DH and I have decided to remain childless (at least that's the plan). I feel confident in my decision, as does he, and there's a lot that we look forward to doing that likely will be a lot easier to do without children. I recognize that no big decision is wholly without regret, but I'm pretty comfortable with the occasional moments of doubt or wistfulness. My friends' toddlers usually jolt me out of it pretty quickly.

That said, I do think it's important to contribute to my community and to address needs other than my own. To that end, I do spend a fair amount of time doing volunteer work. I also strive to be a socially conscious and responsible person, too. When I can, I try to help out my friends with kids and to be supportive of the challenges they face. I kind of like a good "aunt." And I do what I can for children of the four-legged variety. In the end, I feel like I'm doing my part in my community, with or without some of the traditional vestiges of grown up life.

[Becky]

Well said, Indy.

I think that kids are adorable (usually), but there's a limit to my stress management abilities and patience, combined with the requirements of my own healthcare.

I just wish that people would stop asking me about it. *sighs*

[GLC1968]

See, and I grew up in a very, very happy home, had both parents to love and look after me, I played with babydolls as a child, and yet as I approached adulthood, I just didn't want kids.

In my case, it's not a fear of being a good parent (I think I'd make an exellent one, actually - and I handle stress remarkably well), it's just that I never felt any desire to raise my own children. And I know it's practically a sin to admit it, but I don't really like kids. Hell, I didn't like kids even when I WAS a kid! I do feel like I missed out on something having never experienced pregnancy, but I'm not a fool to think I could be pregnant and then not raise children. I'm pretty sure one follows the other! ;)

Then I married a man who also didn't want kids, and my fate was kind of sealed.

Of course, now as I approach my 43rd birthday, I find myself thinking 'what if' quite a bit more than I had expected...

[indysteel]

Well said, Indy.

I think that kids are adorable (usually), but there's a limit to my stress management abilities and patience, combined with the requirements of my own healthcare.

I just wish that people would stop asking me about it. *sighs*

Thanks, and agreed. When I was still sort of on the fence about it, I really hated when people would just dismiss any concern on my part about my advancing age. Apparently, they think because a few celebrities get pregnant after the age of 40, then it's simply a non-issue. Ugh. I really don't feel like having to explain the ins and outs of fertility, the costs of in vitro, the side effects of fertility drugs, birth defects or the like. Nor do I want to explain why I don't want to put my body through a pregnancy at this age. The bottom line is that the decision to have or not have kids is intensely personal. It's rare that I ever offer any opinion about it other than my own.

I feel most sorry for my DH because he's younger than me, and I'm sure most of his friends and family expect him to have kids. Of course, they probably scratched their heads when he married me in the first place. His parents haven't pressed us yet. I'm happy to have a conversation with them about it. In fact I'd prefer that to any kind of passive-aggressive nonsense. I can't precisely predict how they'll react. They were actually pretty cool about our age difference, but I also know that their retirement is the absolute antithesis of what I want my own to look like, so I'm not sure they're going to really appreciate the plus side of being childless either.

For better or for worse, my parents couldn't care less. They've expressed no desire to grandparent. Heck, they barely expressed a desire to parent, so this comes as no surprise.

[limewave]

I do feel like I missed out on something having never experienced pregnancy, but I'm not a fool to think I could be pregnant and then not raise children.

You didn't miss a thing. Trust me. Just back aches, cracked ribs (from the baby pushing on them), roller coaster mood swings, getting up to pee 5 times a night, feeling like your body has been invaded by aliens, and, of course, the grand finale----youch. I HATED being pregnant.

[badger]

GLC, I admit I don't like kids, either, especially babies. All they seem to do is wiggle, sleep, pee/poo/barf, cry, and just pretty much suck everything out of the mother (sorry, no offense to those who have babies!) Kids around 7 years of age get fun, though, as they start to ask good questions.

I have a co-worker who is a month older than me and is pregnant with her first child due in May. She's admitted that she didn't want kids but her husband does, so she's essentially doing this "for him". I do hope she'll fall in love with the child or she's going to grow up feeling she wasn't really wanted. My mother had kids because that was expected of her. If she was my peer, she wouldn't have had kids, and let's just say I felt the resentment while growing up.

My boyfriend is much like me and very ambivalent about having kids. I would think if he was hankering to be a dad, then I'll probably be on board as well, but with him like me, there really is no burning desire.

My mother's pretty good, she's only mentioned it once about my not having kids. She said I should, because when I'm older, it'll be lonely without them. Just because I have a child/ren doesn't mean they'll like me (and vice versa) enough to stick around in my old age!!

[GLC1968]

Badger - funny you should say that about your mom not really wanting kids. And Indysteel's not wanting to be parents.

My situation was similiar. My mom had no desire to be a parent, either. In fact, she also only did it because it was expected of her and I know there were plenty of times in her life where she seriously regretted not doing some of the things she'd originally set out to do. I know that she loved us, and that she was happy to have us and she was a good parent (both of my parents were), but motherhood was not her first choice and I think that was pretty clear to me as a child. I think this is a big contributor to my own lack of desire to have children.

Well, that and my general affection for solitude. ;)

[OakLeaf]

I could almost have written everything you said, indysteel.

With the exception that right now I'm really not giving my time back, either. I'm not happy about that. I'm hoping to work something out here in the next few months where I'll be able to do some volunteering. Being useful is where I feel a huge hole in my life ... I don't miss not having children. There was a time when I thought I might have children, but it would've been the wrong decision for the hypothetical children, even more than for myself.

[indysteel]

What I'm REALLY struggling with right now is the fact that I am extremely unhappy with the volunteering I'm doing. I believe in the cause, but serving on a board has been far less than gratifying, especially since I think the organization of the NFP in question is seriously lacking. I find myself incredibly angry and frustrated with it. So, I'm trying to decide on when to jump ship. My original 3-year term is over in April, and it may be the best time for me to resign--if I can even last that long.

From there, I'll need to find something else to do. I'd prefer to align myself with an NFP where I now live. That might be a good way for me to meet some locals, too. That's something I've struggled to do. It would be a win-win if I could help somebody and make a friend.

[badger]

I volunteer quite a bit with the causes I believe in, mainly animal rescue. I've been going to the spca hospital for the past 10 years, and I'm helping out with a Taiwanese dog rescue group; help the adopting family meet their new family members at the airport.

I used to also volunteer at the local aquarium, which I desperately miss. I used to feed the tropical fishes like trumpet lion, stone fishes, and moray eels. Uber cool. I just didn't have time for that one anymore as it took up most of my Sunday afternoons.

edit to add: sorry if this may have sounded like "I volunteer, nyah nyah". I guess that's the self-centeredness showing through!

[PamNY]

I've been going to the spca hospital for the past 10 years, and I'm helping out with a Taiwanese dog rescue group; help the adopting family meet their new family members at the airport. .

What do you do at the hospital? I've been thinking about volunteering at the ASPCA hospital.

[badger]

What do you do at the hospital? I've been thinking about volunteering at the ASPCA hospital.

mostly cleaning kennels, walking hospitalized dogs, helping the vet techs with procedures (holding the animal, shaving hair), feeding, and laundry. It also helps to know the techs and the vets regarding my own animals.

There are some downsides to working there, like seeing a few animals in there due to humans.

Is the ASPCA hospital you're thinking of a large institution?

[Crankin]

It is not a sin to not want to have kids or say you don't like kids. It really gets me mad when people think this way, or have the nerve to comment on the state of someone's childlessness. Why do people think all women want kids or are enamored of the whole motherhood thing?
My kids were very wanted and planned, but there was a time when my DH was extremely close to having himself fixed, because I decided I didn't want kids. I was going to be a professor... until one day I stood in the ASU bookstore and got totally obsessed by the books about pregancy and babies. I never could have predicted it. I had excellent parents, so it wasn't that; I just knew I was not willing to give up my whole life. And, I didn't. Believe me, I heard about that. I fully admit to liking my own kids more and more as they grew up. Babies and toddlers, well, that was a stage to get through, until the real fun began.
In retrospect, I did what was best for me, as far as both my mental and physical health went. I married someone who is an excellent parent, despite coming from an abusive home. We were young and had the energy, so it worked out. I think, though, my younger son might say I was a little selfish, but he was a difficult kid when he was young. I often think having one kid might have been a better choice for me, but he was the one that kept us laughing. And now, people are asking me if I want to be a grandmother!! Jeez, it never stops. I quite emphatically say no to that, because at this point, I really do not care.
And besides, how can you be a grandmother when you still feel like a kid?

[PamNY]

Is the ASPCA hospital you're thinking of a large institution?

Yes, it's large. Also quite a subway ride/walk to get there. I'm still hoping to find something closer to home. Still, I would like to do all the things you describe.

I think I've got the skills to deal with bad stuff, though it is never easy.

[badger]

I actually started volunteering at a vet clinic when I was 6. My hamster wasn't well and a new vet clinic opened up down the street with a brand-spanking new veterinarian fresh out of school.

My hammy died, but I was absolutely hooked. I've been wanting to be a vet ever since. He let me "assist" during surgery (adjusting the light, giving him some instruments), and just hang out with him after school and "help" him with the animals. He eventually turned his clinic into a major hospital and I'm thinking he's probably retired now (this was another time and another place on another continent).

But I digress... you can probably volunteer at any vet clinic you feel some comraderie with.

[jessmarimba]

I think since the 80's when parents wanted to be hip themselves and much rather be their kids friends than parents, we have allowed kids to be indulged much too much - anything than wanted they got; nothing was earned; every desire was granted; nothing was appreciated. Now we have several generations of adults who don't know how to deny themselves and when they dont get what they want, become depressed and angry about it just like any 2 year old. Think about it? Is that really desirable and attractive?.



Stereotype much?

I was born in the 80s. I paid for my college, I have a job, a house, a paid-off car, health insurance, the works. Though I might not have the nicest bikes, the medical bills from my wreck this summer are completely paid off.

The 50+ year-old woman who wrecked while I was still in the hospital had a brand-new high-end mountain bike, but no insurance or savings, while participating in a sport with a history of "when" you'll get hurt, not "if." I attended a ridiculous number of events attempting to raise money for additional elective surgeries when her original bills will mostly be written-off to charity.

I don't care how responsible/irresponsible or mature/immature people are at any age, but no one should have to pay for the high-risk lifestyle besides the risk takers themselves.

[Owlie]

I hear some odd things from some people about my choices in life, especially from my DBF's academically-uninclined family and their friends. It's like they view graduate school as a means of escaping the real world for another four years. If it's mentioned that I'm not intending to get either a resume-enhancing masters or a professional degree, I get asked "So why are you going to graduate school? What are you going to do with that?"

No, it's not extreme sports, but people seem to view it like it's College: Part II and a means of avoiding real work and responsibility. :rolleyes:

And since we're on the topic, I don't want kids. I don't like kids. I don't want to give up my life and career to reproduce. I don't have the patience or stress tolerance to deal with them. Knowing my luck, they'd turn out like me. I was obnoxious until I was 16 or 17. I don't want to deal with that!

[Irulan]

Stereotype much?

I was born in the 80s. I paid for my college, I have a job, a house, a paid-off car, health insurance, the works. Though I might not have the nicest bikes, the medical bills from my wreck this summer are completely paid off.

The 50+ year-old woman who wrecked while I was still in the hospital had a brand-new high-end mountain bike, but no insurance or savings, while participating in a sport with a history of "when" you'll get hurt, not "if." I attended a ridiculous number of events attempting to raise money for additional elective surgeries when her original bills will mostly be written-off to charity.

I don't care how responsible/irresponsible or mature/immature people are at any age, but no one should have to pay for the high-risk lifestyle besides the risk takers themselves.

Yep. I recall an incident when I was going first aid at some NORBA world cup mountain bike DH races. A guy wrecks ( big surprise) and due to the nature of the potential head injuries, they were going to helicopter him off the mountain. The gf is in tears, "do we have to? We don't have any insurance!!" I mean, wtf, racing DH mountain biking without health insurance? Al least we keep good health and life policies in place with my and DH 's crazy antics.

[Crankin]

Ah, I didn't respond to that comment, originally, but while I do see a lot of helicopter parenting, not everyone is like that. My kids were born in 82 and 85 and are totally on their own. Each in their own way, but on their own. I find that parents, in general, are increasingly afraid of letting their kids do anything that smacks of independence.

[PamNY]

I find that parents, in general, are increasingly afraid of letting their kids do anything that smacks of independence.

I hear people say that, but I don't understand it. Young people today seem much more independent than people my age were. Women in particular weren't supposed to be very independent at all.

[badger]

I'm in the "X" generation, the first generation to NOT do as well or better than our parents' generation. Certainly not a cop-out or a generalization, but I think there's a bit of apathy amongst my peers who have university degrees and jobs but are not able to afford a house thanks to astronomical housing prices.

I know so many young people (I'm including those up to about 35) who still live at home, and parents welcome it. I remember I couldn't WAIT to leave home, and I did when I was 20.

[Irulan]

I hear people say that, but I don't understand it. Young people today seem much more independent than people my age were. Women in particular weren't supposed to be very independent at all.

LOL they have seminars at universities now for parents on how to de-helicopter. No sh*t. The parents attend their own orientation while the kids go to theirs.

[Owlie]

LOL they have seminars at universities now for parents on how to de-helicopter. No sh*t. The parents attend their own orientation while the kids go to theirs.

Yep. The professor who teaches general chemistry does parent orientation sessions during the university's student orientation sessions. It's actually kind of depressing to watch. He'd go over what they'd be covering the first semester (why do they need to know that?), how the students could contact him, and then tell them that no, he couldn't legally tell them the kid's grades or whether they were attending class. :rolleyes:

(I know this because I volunteered for two years to help out with the fun demonstrations he did.)

Mine were good at not being helicopter parents. They were involved, but never hovered.

[crazycanuck]

When i saw the title of this thread I thought of an awesome cool assistant prof @ my uni. On an excursion last year, we were discussing uni stuff & started talking about surfing etc. What struck me as interesting was that he didn't want to get out of "uni life" because the outside was too realistic & surfing was much more a part of who he is. He's not much older than me...:o

I'm not sure if i explained that correctly...:o

[Owlie]

CC, I've had a professor who's said something similar. It was more along the lines of the fact that part of the reason he stayed in academia was because the schedule let him do other things. If he wasn't teaching a summer class, he could do X or Y in the morning and then come in in the afternoon. If he were in industry, he couldn't do that.

[Crankin]

Pam, it is true that women have more opportunities today, than in my generation, but I never felt that anything was holding me back, mostly because my parents encouraged me to do anything I wanted. I think it's very dependent on how you are raised and where you are raised. When I was 13-14, I was hanging out in the city, on my own, using public transportation, going to cultural events and shopping with my friends. I also was doing stuff my parents wouldn't have liked! I've had other women I work with look at me like I was crazy when i tell stories about stuff I did as a teen. Yet, all of my friends were like me; I was probably a bit meeker than most of them. When I moved to Florida in high school, it was totally different.
Many of the parents of my kids' friends were aghast when I let them take the train to Cambridge or Boston, alone, when they were 15-16. They had done it many times with me; they could handle themselves. Many of the other parents wouldn't let their kids babysit, either, fearing lawsuits. They didn't let their kids get their licenses, or drive much if they had them. They spent most of their time harassing their kids to study and do millions of extra curricular activities. While my close friends weren't all like this, I would say the majority of the parents in the community were.

[shootingstar]

For the people who I know my age range and younger, the expectation is IF anyone chooses to have children, is to wait awhile to have lst child..meaning well into late 20's and early 30's.

It astounds me to see/hear of many university students, not yet completing their studies and going on vacation in Europe.

Then later they, complain being serious debt. Well they were still in debt before any trip overseas so why spend a pile more money on top. I do think the credit card use among young'uns is WAY bigger now than when I was in my 20's with my peers (that over 30 yrs. ago)/awareness of how they spent their money and paid for stuff.

I'm wondering this is all contributing a great deal more to credit card/personal debt.

[OakLeaf]

Shootingstar, don't neglect the effect that predatory lending has had on these kids.

Obviously they need to take responsibility. But that responsibility has to be shared between the kids; their parents who never taught them financial skills; their elementary and high schools that also never taught them financial skills; and the predatory lenders themselves.

In order to go to college at all, a kid needs to sign on the dotted line for an amount of money so large they've probably never imagined it in their life. By definition they don't have the ability or a plan to pay it back - that's what the education they're borrowing for is "supposed" to give them. (Which has been shown to be false in most cases, but that's another rant. :rolleyes:)

Now they're softened up for all the credit card offers that start arriving in their mailbox. And they have been deluged with them for the past 25 years - it had just started when I was in law school. The current debt crisis put a little blip in that, but it's started to pick up again. A kid's 18 years old with all the maturity that entails. They've never made more than $7.25 an hour or worked in a full-time permanent position. They just signed a loan for anywhere from $15,000 to $50,000, and that's just for their first year of an anticipated four. They get an offer in the mail for a credit card with a $500 or $1,000 limit. "What's the difference between $50,000 I can't pay off, and $50,500 I can't pay off?" You and I know there is a difference, but it's pretty darned hard to see for an 18-year-old with no financial education.

[limewave]

I never had an appreciation for the great education I had until my adult years. There are so many things we learned in school that I assumed everyone had to learn in public school. We had a mandatory class that taught budgeting and how to balance a check book. We had mock incomes and expenses, retirement funds, etc. We learned all about how credit cards and loans worked.

When we were really young, my parents opened savings accounts for us. We deposited money every week. When I wanted something that cost more than my allowance, we put it on layaway and I made payments each week until I paid it off.

We aren't in the best financial position right now. I blame my husband (lol) who had no financial education at all. I just assumed he had been taught the same things I had.

[Owlie]

The sum total of financial education I got (from an overwhelmingly upper middle-class school district) was one semester in high school. It spent about a month teaching us how to write a check. By contrast, it spent relatively little time on things like loans, credit cards or pretty much anything that wasn't already common sense. Really useful, that.:rolleyes:

Hopefully I don't sound too whiny...

I went to a private university. I managed to graduate debt-free (thanks to some generous gifts from grandparents, wise savings by my parents and scholarships). That wiped out my savings, save what's in the sum total of what's in my own savings account. And this is where I'm going to have to admit to joining the ranks for people you're railing against. I'm existing on parental handouts, because I can't find a job, not for lack of trying. No one in my field wants to hire a fresh-out-of-college worker, because they can hire someone with years of experience who got laid off. (In addition, I'm in a field where you really need to have a graduate degree.) No one in retail or food service particularly wants to hire someone with a college degree, because they know that as soon as something better comes along, that person is going to leave. There just isn't a lot out there.

Now, it was my intent all along to go to graduate school. That will likely mean I need to take out a loan. Even if I get into a program where they offer a stipend, I'll likely have to pay for books and initial living expenses by credit card. You can't get away from it.

I got relatively lucky. Unlike many of my peers, I'll just have graduate school loan debt. Many of the ones that were in my classes will have undergraduate as well as graduate, medical or law school debt. Most of the engineering students I know are in debt up to their eyeballs, with not a lot of scope for paying it off. I also have friends from high school in similar situations. And like Oak said, the attitude a lot of them take is "you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb."

[limewave]

And like Oak said, the attitude a lot of them take is "you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb."

That WAS dh's philosophy. He's singing a different tune now.

[Crankin]

It's a hard call. We told our kids we would pay for their college, no matter what. DS #1 was accepted at 5 small liberal arts colleges and U Mass. He chose to go to one of the liberal arts schools. DH could not say no... was so proud of him. We took out a 30K loan from the state for the 1st year, just to be safe. In the summer between 1st and 2nd yr. DH had pen in hand (not kidding here) to write the check for the fall semester tuition for yr. 2. He jokingly said, "I hope you like it, because this is *** expensive." And DS replied, "Actually, I hate it. I was too embarrassed to tell you, but I want to go to U Mass." Inside, I was secretly jumping for joy, because it meant no more loans. Since it was too late for DS to transfer for the fall, he went back out to western MA (the first school was in the same town as U Mass), rented a room from the friend of one of my friends, got 2 part time jobs, and took 2 classes at night school, until January. We paid off the loan and the rest of his education was paid for by me, from my paycheck. He worked part time during the rest of his college; we expected him to pay for all of his entertainment, gas, etc. During the summers he was a barista and painted houses for 2 summers. None of his friends did any such manual labor. We bought him a small car, put it in his name, so he could establish credit. So, we set him up to be able to take an entry level job when he graduated, debt free, but I have to say he worked more than any of his other friends. Four days after he graduated he moved into his first apartment, started work and has never moved back home.
We gave DS #2 the same deal, but after one year at U of A (where he started as a sophomore), enlisted in the Marines. He said his life had been "too easy," and he wanted to do something really hard. So, my college obligation ended after 5 years, instead of 8.
I know some people that tell their kids they have to pay for their own education, even when they have the $ to pay for college. I couldn't do that. I tried to find the happy medium, where my kids had to work, know the value of $, but not have to worry about their tuition, because they knew we were committed to their education.

[roadie gal]

Great discussion!

I was never a kid, until my 30s. I had a very difficult younger life and had to take responsibility for my younger siblings (as well as my parents) as a child. I went to college and med school as a way to get out of the house and to be responsible for myself. Finally, in my late 20s I had enough time and money to "be a kid".

For a while I did the rock climbing, etc. high risk sports. But a few years ago I realized that it wasn't for me. I was doing a lot of stuff because I could and not because I loved it. I'm more comfortable being active in a "lower risk" way. My decision wasn't based on anyone else's perception but on MY comfort level.

Now I lead a deliberately boring life: a house, a job, 2 dogs, 2 cats and a long term SO. And I LOVE it.

I think that people should be allowed to do what makes them happy as long as they're taking responsibility for themselves and not putting anyone else at risk. That includes people who are dependent on them, such as their spouses, children, etc.

I know a lot of people who do extreme skiing, climbing, and river rafting. When I talk to them I don't think, "Wow, I'm missing some great stuff". I think, "I'm so glad I'm not stressing myself out doing that anymore. I'm glad they're happy."

[ivorygorgon]

I don't get why growing up means growing sedentary. We don't have the whole article here, but what is written about it seems to imply that because this guy likes to be active, he is childish. I don't get that. As many people here have voiced, they are active, yet take care of their adult responsibilities. The two aren't mutually exclusive.