Hogging the road

[featuretile]

I live on a steep country road that goes up 500' in one mile. It is only 1 1/2 lanes wide with turnouts for passing cars. I choose not to ride here because it's too steep and not safe. So, for months I have watched this woman ride up and down my road several times in a row. I can see her from my window and we call her Bicycle Girl. I finally got to my mailbox about the same time she was about to turn around, and I asked her if she was in training for some ride. I thought I'd be friendly and invite her to ride some place nicer, like with our cycling club. She was very cold and acted like I was stalking her and said that she prefers this ride.

So, yesterday I was in my yellow jacket and black tights with my road bike in the back of my Subaru and she was going downhill in front of me. She completely hogged the road and would not pull over, even though all she needed to do was move a few feet and slow down at one of the turn outs (no need to even stop the bike) and let me by. I do not understand why anyone would want to ride down a steep narrow road with a car on her tail.

I found myself in the strange position of really feeling pissed off at a cyclist, and I understand cycling. I can only image what a non-cyclist would feel like, since it really bothered me . I would have let the car pass when it was safe. I think this kind of attitude contributes to motorists dislike of cyclists. That's not sharing the road. Wish she would find another training place.....

[Mr. Bloom]

First, I understand where you're coming from...out of curiosity, with a 10% grade down for one mile, how long were you following her?

Frankly, it seems like the profile of a spot where I'd be inclined to "take the lane" to avoid getting pushed to the shoulder by a car on one of those turns...

[zoom-zoom]

My dad is not fond of cyclists and has said some HORRIBLE things about cyclists as a whole, because of people like her and the thousands of others who flock to my folks' vacation area and disregard rules of the road when they (the tourists) are in such an idyllic place...an idyllic place where people still drive deadly cars. I have often had to remind my parents that they don't live in a "typical" area and that most cyclists riding while not on vacation do not have their brains turned off like the ones they encounter so often.

They regularly see people riding 3 abreast, not sharing the road, disregarding stops, riding on the wrong side of the road, etc. They see this so much that they've come to believe this is how cyclists behave everywhere. It's a shame.

[Becky]

Frankly, it seems like the profile of a spot where I'd be inclined to "take the lane" to avoid getting pushed to the shoulder by a car on one of those turns...

This occurred to me also. That said, perhaps Kenny Rogers said it best: "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em..."

[kermit]

I have found the same problem in a popular spot down here...girls stopped in the bike lane to text...REALLY... or the girl on the mountain bike that pushes you into traffic when you pass. I believe that ignorance is bliss, she has almost never ridden with a group and never in a good cycling area with other riders, I'm sure she doesn't know what "on your left" means. It's gonna take one guy behind her in a car that lays on his horn. She has no clue...I wish that with every bike that is sold there was some kind of "safe riding" manual to give people a clue!

[malkin]

I get ticked off at cyclists quite often!

No helmet, no lights, no observance of driving conventions---> depending on my mood, my response can range from eye rolling to cursing.

[Veronica]

Maybe she's in training for something like DMD or the Terrible Two and is doing hill repeats. It sounds like you live on a little country road with not much traffic so she may think it's the perfect place for a workout like that.

What's the speed limit on your road? It would not surprise me if descending she was doing at least the speed limit. In which case, I would not give up the lane either.

Veronica

[Biciclista]

people that want to hate cyclists use the same mentality "All cyclists in my neighborhood blow through stop signs" excuse me, I live in your neighborhood and I don't do that.
however, on a road like you described, I might have taken the lane too. the shoulder isn't very safe especially at higher speeds. How many seconds were you delayed by her hogging the road?

[Veronica]

Sometimes when I'm descending on my bike, I get held up by cars...


Veronica

[snapdragen]

Many times it's safer for a cyclist to "take the road" on a narrow windy downhill.

[XMcShiftersonX]

It's her choice if she wants to ride there or not, and she has just as much right to be on the road as anyone else. She doesn't have to be training for something to justify riding there. 500 feet in 1/2 mile sounds like a great ride and workout to me (in fact that's just the hill that leaves my neighborhood)! I never slow down or stop to let someone pass me. Why? Do cars ever do that for you on the chance you're stuck behind them? Getting as far to the right is the polite thing to do IF you feel it's safe enough, but its not always a viable option. Especially going down hills, you SHOULD WANT to take up the lane so that people don't try to pass you while you're maneuvering and then have you crash and also get hit by a car. Also, the shoulder is often where you find tons of debris and potholes. Keep in mind that your idea of a good time on the bike, is not everyone elses'.

[Grog]

On a narrow, steep hill, I will always take the lane, it's much, much safer. If I let them pass me they are likely to squeeze me off the road on their way back down or I will have to brake because I descend faster than they do, especially going through turns. The car is much less of a danger to me if it's behind me than if it's ahead of me on a road like that...

[Grog]

I was thinking about this thread this morning on my (bike) commute to work, which is on a rather hilly route. I don't normally log into Team Estrogen from work but this was bugging me enough that I wanted to get it off my chest.

Any cyclist who thinks it's a good idea to stay closer than 6-10 feet from the side of the road on a descent where the cyclist will hit speeds of more than 20 mph is at great risk. Here are a few reasons why I refuse to put myself at risk for the (imagined) convenience of others:

- I am going much faster than the driver thinks I am. I regularly hit speeds of 70kph (43 mph) and above. My max-ever speed on a long windy descent is 85 kph (50 mph). There isn't a day on the bike where I don't go faster than 45 kph (almost 30 mph) at some point.*
- At 50 kph I am traveling 14 meters per second (almost 50 feet).
- My capacity to stop is greatly reduced at high speed..
- I need to keep my options open at all time. If I am too close to the right side of the road, even for one second, I have nowhere to go in case of a problem. Always know where the emergency exits are and how to get there.
- There is very often debris on the road, and there is even more debris as one gets close to the shoulder. I need to be able to see debris ahead of time and steer accordingly, all of this at high speed.
- Deer can jump out of the woods at any time on a rural road.
- Squirrel, coyotes, racoons, and skunks can come out of the side of the road at any time in urban and rural environments.
- Children and adults who are not looking at the road also come out. If it's a quiet rural road they are not suspecting there will be a fast-descending vehicle on that road, especially one they cannot hear.
- Folks on mountain bikes can dart out of a road-side trail as well. My father-in-law hit a young guy who did not look when coming out of a trail as he was descending a long hill at high speed. That's 6 years and he still suffers from the consequences of that accident today. (The kid apparently was fine, as he left my father-in-law unconscious on the road and took off.)
- Drivers come out of driveways, sometimes backing off, and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder.
- Drivers coming in the other direction are preparing to make left turns into my path to enter a driveway and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder. They also underestimate my speed. I have to make a strong impression on them.
- The driver behind me might want to make a right turn in a driveway ahead. They are also underestimating my speed, are likely to pass me and then hit the brakes to make their turn, putting me in great danger.
- The driver behind me will hit the brakes when approaching the next turn, putting me at risk of rear-ending them or having to pass them on the left.
- On the other side of a blind corner there will be the proverbial truck stopped and, in the other lane, the refrigerator that fell off the back of the truck. I need to be in full control of the space and to benefit from some reaction time. (Note that I don't go at 85 kph if there are blind corners!!!)

The correct position on the road, when descending at any speed, if you imagine is somewhere in the central third of the road.

The driver of the car behind me might get a little impatient, but the chances that the driver is enough of a maniac to actually run me over from behind are much lower than the chances of any of the above happening. As for honking, they should keep both hands on the steering wheel, but if they do, it will not impact my descending strategy. My safety is in my own hands and I will definitely let them go by when I feel that it is safe to do so.


*This is also the reason why, unless going through a turn, I keep moving my legs even if I'm not actually applying force to the pedals anymore. This conveys a stronger impression to the driver that I am actually moving rather fast.

[Biciclista]

everything she said.
+++++++++++++++100000
so use a little patience. It might save a life and teach some other drivers that it can be done.


I was thinking about this thread this morning on my (bike) commute to work, which is on a rather hilly route. I don't normally log into Team Estrogen from work but this was bugging me enough that I wanted to get it off my chest.

Any cyclist who thinks it's a good idea to stay closer than 6-10 feet from the side of the road on a descent where the cyclist will hit speeds of more than 20 mph is at great risk. Here are a few reasons why I refuse to put myself at risk for the (imagined) convenience of others:

- I am going much faster than the driver thinks I am. I regularly hit speeds of 70kph (43 mph) and above. My max-ever speed on a long windy descent is 85 kph (50 mph). There isn't a day on the bike where I don't go faster than 45 kph (almost 30 mph) at some point.*
- At 50 kph I am traveling 14 meters per second (almost 50 feet).
- My capacity to stop is greatly reduced at high speed..
- I need to keep my options open at all time. If I am too close to the right side of the road, even for one second, I have nowhere to go in case of a problem. Always know where the emergency exits are and how to get there.
- There is very often debris on the road, and there is even more debris as one gets close to the shoulder. I need to be able to see debris ahead of time and steer accordingly, all of this at high speed.
- Deer can jump out of the woods at any time on a rural road.
- Squirrel, coyotes, racoons, and skunks can come out of the side of the road at any time in urban and rural environments.
- Children and adults who are not looking at the road also come out. If it's a quiet rural road they are not suspecting there will be a fast-descending vehicle on that road, especially one they cannot hear.
- Folks on mountain bikes can dart out of a road-side trail as well. My father-in-law hit a young guy who did not look when coming out of a trail as he was descending a long hill at high speed. That's 6 years and he still suffers from the consequences of that accident today. (The kid apparently was fine, as he left my father-in-law unconscious on the road and took off.)
- Drivers come out of driveways, sometimes backing off, and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder.
- Drivers coming in the other direction are preparing to make left turns into my path to enter a driveway and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder. They also underestimate my speed. I have to make a strong impression on them.
- The driver behind me might want to make a right turn in a driveway ahead. They are also underestimating my speed, are likely to pass me and then hit the brakes to make their turn, putting me in great danger.
- The driver behind me will hit the brakes when approaching the next turn, putting me at risk of rear-ending them or having to pass them on the left.
- On the other side of a blind corner there will be the proverbial truck stopped and, in the other lane, the refrigerator that fell off the back of the truck. I need to be in full control of the space and to benefit from some reaction time. (Note that I don't go at 85 kph if there are blind corners!!!)

The correct position on the road, when descending at any speed, if you imagine is somewhere in the central third of the road.

The driver of the car behind me might get a little impatient, but the chances that the driver is enough of a maniac to actually run me over from behind are much lower than the chances of any of the above happening. As for honking, they should keep both hands on the steering wheel, but if they do, it will not impact my descending strategy. My safety is in my own hands and I will definitely let them go by when I feel that it is safe to do so.


*This is also the reason why, unless going through a turn, I keep moving my legs even if I'm not actually applying force to the pedals anymore. This conveys a stronger impression to the driver that I am actually moving rather fast.

[Eden]

My question is pretty much the same as Veronica's ..... If the road is steep and she was descending was she doing at/near the speed limit? Did you only want to pass here because "I'm in a car and cars go faster than bikes".....

I find that descending I often go as fast or faster than cars *can*, especially on winding roads because I don't have to slow down as much to corner. I also take the lane because it is safer - see Grog's list!

In my view, your cyclist wasn't "hogging" the road - she was using it.... Sometimes it is just better to stay where you are. If someone has to wait a little bit, its not the end of the world...

I go through a section on my way to work that is a two lane road with a wide center barrier. The lane is narrow. Sometimes there is parking on the right, sometimes there is just sidewalk. There are curb bulbs (sidewalk that sticks out beyond the parking) at intersections. In the parking lane (if it is not full of cars) there are several large metal utility covers - one grated, one smooth, both rectangular and about 2'x3' - big). I'm not sure what the exact mileage is, but the whole distance I travel on the road before I turn left takes me 40 sec to a min at the most, depending on how frisky I feel and how much junk I've got on my back that morning.... I'm usually going about 17-20 mph - maybe a little slower near the end as it starts to gradually pitch up a little bit and I am preparing to turn left. The recommended speed is 25 for most of it (yellow signs) the limit is 30. I take the center of the lane. Even if there's a gap between parked cars I don't dive in there to let someone by - one its just safer to keep moving in a straight line, two - there could be something hazardous in there I can't see - like one of those slippery metal plates, three I could end up with not enough time to get back out or stop and crash into a parked car or curb if there's more than a single car behind me. I'm sure some people think I'm "hogging the road" - but guess what - I think my safety is more important that the several seconds they have to wait.... (and remember its not even the 40 secs that they are waiting, because I am moving....)

The cyclist on your road probably has a similarly complex thought out process to why she rides where she does and she doesn't do it to p*ss you off - she does it because it how she feels safest. Remember - unless they are limited access interstate highways... roads aren't just for cars - just because *you* wouldn't feel comfortable riding on a particular road, doesn't mean it's off limits to everyone and no one ever has the obligation to get out of your way if it means compromising their own safety...

[radacrider]

I agree with all who supported riding out in the lane. I do this pretty much on any road I am on.

Makes me more visible because I am not blending with things along the side, like parked cars.
I can actually see further and have a wider angle of view, because I do not have as much blind spot to right side
It gives me a bit more safety margin should I need to move right more


On the matter of whether the cyclist should pull over, I would say no. I've been behind good and bad cyclists. I have also been behind slow farm tractors - not very many of them pull over. Right or wrong? I don't think there is a right or wrong. Each makes a choice, then we choose how to react.

I will also say that depending on where I am riding and the circumstances, I have been known to locate somewhere safe to pull-out (driveway, side street) to let cars go by. Why? I call it community building. Quite often, the first driver behind honks and waves thanks for my courtesy to them. I do it as a way of changing attitudes one person at a time about cyclists, not because I have to yield to cars.

[XMcShiftersonX]

The driver of the car behind me might get a little impatient, but the chances that the driver is enough of a maniac to actually run me over from behind are much lower than the chances of any of the above happening. As for honking, they should keep both hands on the steering wheel, but if they do, it will not impact my descending strategy. My safety is in my own hands and I will definitely let them go by when I feel that it is safe to do so.

I agree with everything you've said. And for the record, I have been descending down a long steep winding two lane road, and had an ******* behind me in an SUV lay on his horn for 5 minutes straight as he followed me. I was by myself and yes it was startling, but I didn't change my position because it's where I felt safest. And guess what? The speed limit was 25 and I was doing 30! Eventually I realized that the guy was being an ******* just to be an *******, as he had many opportunities where the road turned straight, there was great visibility, and there were no cars coming up the other lane, and he still chose to stay behind me with his horn blaring. It was only when a line of cars piled up behind him that he decided to give up his fight and go around. But certainly after that display, I wasn't about to be polite to him, even if I had felt safe doing so.

My question is, we are all using the same roads to get somewhere, what makes someone in a car think they have the right to get there faster than myself? On some roads if you slowed down or stopped every time a car needed to pass, you would never get anywhere! And I drive a car quite frequently. I never have and never would get impatient with someone on a bike. I wait for a safe place to pass and I pass. That's sharing the road.

[Cataboo]

I understand why people take the lane during a descent - and I typically stay out of the shoulder for descents for all the reasons mentioned.

However, this is not someone that's going down the hill and it takes her two minutes to do it and people should just be patient. This is someone that's repeatedly lapping a hill - so cars get to wait when she goes up the hill and cars get to wait when she goes down a hill. When you're doing this in someone's neighborhood - it'd be nice to be friendly about it and not be a major road block in one direction or another for an hour or however long she rides. If she's doing it several times in a row, she should have a good idea which pullouts are free of debris and which arent - we all know it only takes a few seconds to swing partly into a pull out and let a car pass you. These pullouts are for cars to use or trucks to let faster people pass them going up or down a hill - so we're not expecting her to do anything that a car driving that same stretch of road wouldn't do.

[oz rider]

+1 to Grog. Cyclists have a right to use the road safely - no way would I pull in to the marbles on a descent to allow a car to pass me (possibly) too closely and destabilise me with its wash. Is my safety not worth 10 or even 30 seconds to someone in a car?

And how is a descending cyclist not sharing the road? We have drivers here who think 'sharing the road' means cyclists getting out of their way. It hasn't dawned on some that it might mean they have to respect bikes as equal road users. There is no road rule here saying I'm a second class citizen on a bike but superior in a car and thus nothing that supports driver convenience over cyclist convenience, let alone cyclist safety. I don't see them ranting that a garbage truck holds them up for 10 seconds - let alone the other 1000 cars in front of them.

Maybe you guys have really law-abiding drivers, but 88% of our offences are traffic offences, overwhelmingly committed in cars. Yet I don't hear our drivers ranting about cars running reds, not using indicators, speeding, drunk drivers ... and they kill over a thousand people a year. Why are cyclists held to a higher moral standard on such matters when cyclists are so benign? It doesn't make sense. :confused: The double standard is insidious.

[featuretile]

First of all, I did not 'honk' her, and I followed her all the way down the road. I am certainly not going to endanger a cyclist. I was just saying that I was surprised how it made me feel. And I imagine that people who don't cycle would potentially do something dangerous.

There are areas in the road that are 15% grade. She was going slower than the speed limit - riding her brakes. This is actually a private road and she does not live on it. She does hill repeats. This road is not even 2 lanes wide. The pull outs are so that cars can pass each other when going in the opposite direction. There is no room for 2 cars to pass each other without slowing down. And there is certainly no room for 2 cars and a bike. It is not very crowded, but I have had close calls with cars. That's why I don't ride on it. Since she wasn't going very fast, I think the safest thing for her to do would be to yield and let the car pass.

[Eden]

I think the safest thing for her to do would be to yield and let the car pass.

No, the safest thing for *her* to do was to not deviate from her line and continue to descend the hill..... it would have been more convenient for you for her to yield, but would only have made her "more safe" if you were posing a threat to her.....

We can debate all you want about what is polite or not polite, whether she should be doing hill repeats on a private road, but that is a *totally* different issue from the safety of the rider. She was perfectly *safe* being left alone to descend the hill without disturbance. I see in no way how it would have been more safe for her to be passed by a vehicle, unless the motorist in the vehicle was actively threatening her, driving in an unsafe manner or was experiencing a malfunction in their car, which I am nicely assuming you were not.

[GLC1968]

I live less than 2 miles from a road very similiar to the one you describe except that it's twice as steep (1000' in 1 mile) and it does have two lanes. I drive the road at least twice daily (sometimes more on those annoying weekends!) and I rarely see cyclists even though every local cyclist I've ever met knows of it. Occasionally I see someone trying to ascend the road and usually they are pulled off to the side and standing next to their bikes. It's > 18% grade in some spots! Until a few weeks ago, I'd never seen anyone descending it.

I was on my way home (it was daylight) and there was a cyclist turning down this road directly in front of me. I noted that he was dressed like he knew what he was doing and I had my fingers crossed that he wasn't a poser. He wasn't. He knew what he was doing. He took the lane the entire way down the hill and I found myself glad for him and cyclist/car relations that I was the person directly behind him. I was happy to follow at a safe distance and I had no intention of ever attempting to pass him. Of course, it helped that he was doing about the same speed that is safe for a car, so I did not feel like I was hindered anyway. Another driver might have wanted to pass him though, purely based on the fact that he was on a bike and not in a car. As soon as we got to the valley, he pulled right and let me pass and I gave him a little wave.

Anyway, my point is that I totally get being surprised by your own feeling of annoyance at another cyclist, but like others are trying to point out...your annoyance might have been misplaced in this situation. It does sound like she was doing the right thing for her own safety. I'm sure it didn't help already knowing that she wasn't the friendliest of sorts from your previous engagement. That probably would have colored my view of the situation had I been in your shoes.

[XMcShiftersonX]

+1 to Grog. Cyclists have a right to use the road safely - no way would I pull in to the marbles on a descent to allow a car to pass me (possibly) too closely and destabilise me with its wash. Is my safety not worth 10 or even 30 seconds to someone in a car?

And how is a descending cyclist not sharing the road? We have drivers here who think 'sharing the road' means cyclists getting out of their way. It hasn't dawned on some that it might mean they have to respect bikes as equal road users. There is no road rule here saying I'm a second class citizen on a bike but superior in a car and thus nothing that supports driver convenience over cyclist convenience, let alone cyclist safety. I don't see them ranting that a garbage truck holds them up for 10 seconds - let alone the other 1000 cars in front of them.

Maybe you guys have really law-abiding drivers, but 88% of our offences are traffic offences, overwhelmingly committed in cars. Yet I don't hear our drivers ranting about cars running reds, not using indicators, speeding, drunk drivers ... and they kill over a thousand people a year. Why are cyclists held to a higher moral standard on such matters when cyclists are so benign? It doesn't make sense. :confused: The double standard is insidious.

Agree 100%.

And as for her not being very "nice"... I hesitate to judge. Because #1 at that particular point she didn't know you were a cyclist (you were getting your mail), she didn't know your motives, and as it turns out you were an irritated resident wondering what the hell she was doing on "your" road when you didn't think she should be riding there (although I would hope your tone didn't come off that way). She could have been tired from doing her hill repeats, focused on what she was doing, or having a bad day and using exercise to blow off steam, and lastly, she was riding her bike. Whether she was turning around or not, did you expect she would stop and have a full on conversation with a stranger? Some people aren't comfortable talking with people they don't know, and aren't social butterflies, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm guessing that might be why she prefers to ride alone, rather than with a club.

But, you know, your feelings are your own. We know you're not going to act out against her because of your feelings, and that's the most important thing. I just think it would probably be more productive to not get worked up about something that isn't likely to change, since she legally has a right to ride on that road.

[smilingcat]

I'm sorry but just didn't have the stomach to read through all the good posts.

I will say this:

If the cyclist was going down the hill near or above the speed limit, don't complain.
If you had to exceed the speed limit to pass her don't complain.
It seems that the grade you are talking about and the sharp turns, I think she was going over 25MPH, and I would guess that 25MPH was the speed limit.

I have had cars who DEMANDED THAT THEY BE IN FRONT OF ME REGARDLESS OF HOW FAST I WAS COMING DOWN THE HILL. THIS INCLUDES NUMEROUS TIMES WHEN THE CAR ALMOST WENT OVER THE EMBANKMENT DOWN A 100 FOOT CLIFF. OR FISHED TAILED SO HARD THAT I THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO CRASH INTO A GUARD RAIL AND HEARD THEM SKIDDING AROUND A HAIRPIN TURN!! I WATCH THEM SKIDDING AROUND THE TURN.

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE IN A CAR DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BE IN FRONT OF A FAST BICYCLE!!

and +1 to all who thought this through carefully!
THANK YOU!! FOR LETTING ME VENT!!

[featuretile]

When I saw her at my mailbox, I was stopped and so was she. It was a different time, many weeks before the downhill drive behind her. I told her I was a cyclist and introduced myself. I thought she might be a neighbor and might like to ride together.

I won't belabor this anymore. If she is there and takes the road, there is nothing I can do but follow at a safe distance. I would not personally choose to do what she does. I'm surprised at how many people think that taking the road and making cars crawl down behind them is the better way to go. It doesn't help to make enemies of people in cars. I have taken the lane in situations that required it, but have pulled over as soon as I could find a safe place. I would not want to hit a rock or a crack in the road (or meet an oncoming car in this case) with a car right behind me, especially if the car was tailgating. I thought that what I was saying would promote people being more courteous to each other (both car and bike). I did not expect that so many people would think that what she does is correct.

[Biciclista]

we were really hoping you'd understand just how seriously difficult it is for cyclists to "pull over to the side" on a steep and winding hill. It's a life or death thing... or at least serious injury. All of us know someone who DID get too far over into the shoulder and crashed and burned..

[oz rider]

I'm surprised at how many people think that taking the road and making cars crawl down behind them is the better way to go. It doesn't help to make enemies of people in cars.
It's safe and legal as well. Braking hard enough to stop on turnouts at the inclines you describe could well get you run over by some drivers who wouldn't notice the braking.

But more than that, I think some drivers take this sort of thing as a personal affront from a cyclist but not from a truck (self preservation?) We don't do it to make life difficult for cars; we're just trying to get down the hill safely and cars should learn to take their turn. What's unfair about that? They don't have some divine right to unimpeded progress. That said, I think I'm polite on the bike and sometimes even offer them training treats like a little wave or a nod or a smile if they are obviously polite or careful too. ;)

[Cataboo]

I think you guys are all being pretty unfair to op - I don't think she thinks that she has a divine right to unimpeded progress and the various other things that have been said throughout here. She's admitted she was surprised to find herself so irritated.

And it's pretty clear that there are extenuating circumstances beyond how to safely descend down a hill in this case - if you're riding laps on a 1 lane private hill there really isn't a way to do it safely and not to annoy all the people that live in that neighborhood. Any car going up or down that hill would be giving way and going into the pullouts as is safe. And I doubt op would have a problem with the cyclist taking the lane if it was a larger road in general.

So if she's descending down this 1 lane road and there is a car going up this one lane road... Should the cyclist just stick in the middle of the road because that's her right and the car doesnt have a divine right to unimpeded progress?

So we can all agree that taking the lane is often the safest way to descend, but can we all agree that perhaps the cyclist in this case would be a lot safer in general if she were riding laps on a different hill?

In general when I'm riding, I'm very aware that cars are 80 times bigger than me and quite capable of killing me. I often wave cars that are hovering behind me to pass me, because I don't want them behind me. If I see any cars coming behind me when I am about to descend down a hill that I know I need to take the lane for, I generally stop at the top, wait for them to pass me and then descend. That's because I don't want a car behind me if for some reason I wipe out and I'm splat across the road, because being splat + run over is worse than just being splat. I do take the lane when it's necessary for my safety, however, I don't take the lane just to teach cars a lesson that it's not just their road or whatever.

[jobob]

No, the safest thing for *her* to do was to not deviate from her line and continue to descend the hill.....

Yep.


we were really hoping you'd understand just how seriously difficult it is for cyclists to "pull over to the side" on a steep and winding hill. It's a life or death thing... or at least serious injury. All of us know someone who DID get too far over into the shoulder and crashed and burned..

Yep.

I used to tend to be too far over to the right on downhills.

You would have liked me back then, featuretile.

I'd worry sooooo much about inconveniencing drivers, even though more often than not I was faster than them on downhills, or, if not faster, then going at a comparable speed. But I'd still move way too far over to the right, even though (in case you haven't noticed) that's where most of the debris in the road collects, and the ruts in the road seem to be the worst.

Yep, you would have really liked me back then.

Then, over a year & a half ago, some folks (including a few TE-ers and my DH) helped scrape me off the pavement when I hit a rut near the edge of the road on a steep downhill.

Little 'ol courteous me, trying not to get in anyone's way. That misplaced courtesy nearly got me killed (and, I'm told, messed up traffic for a good long time while they brought in the emergency crews and the helicopter to transport me to the trauma center. Whoopsie. My bad.).

You would not like me now.

Or, at least, you would not like to follow me now.

Nowadays I will not put my life at risk for the sake of saving someone a few moments. If the situation warrants it, I'll take the lane. A few moments of someone's day is not worth jeopardizing my entire life anymore.

Funny what a few days in a trauma center, four weeks with double vision and over three months in a back brace will do to one's definition of "inconvenience". :cool:

[crazycanuck]

There's no freakin way i'm getting close to the sides of some of our roads!! There's NOTHING on the side..except for honkey nuts & pea gravel.

I'll hog the road thanks.

[OakLeaf]

I couldn't say it any better than jobob did.

I'd add that I don't know what difference it makes to an automobile driver whether she's doing hill repeats or just passing through. Unless the motorist is ALSO doing hill repeats, they'll encounter her exactly once.

As far as it being a private road ... that's a tough one. Our group does a couple of loops through gated communities. Although I don't join them for it, they do sprint intervals there one day a week. I would hate to see the relationship get confrontational. Because the low traffic density means they tend to be the safest place to ride.

[radacrider]

Seems like this kinda went from the OP more or less venting about an experience to 4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good.

I don't believe the OP was saying the cyclist should ride way to the right and I do not believe the OP was saying the cyclist should not be taking the lane.

I see the whole issue as not so much about legalities, but more about what does it mean to share the road.

Does sharing the road mean "I have a legal right to be here so the heck with anyone else around me"?

Here's what I think it means to me and is how I share the road. (Note: Your mileage and experience may vary, and that's cool, cuz you aren't me, you are you)

I am a car and bike person. I have sat in traffic in both. Sharing the road means not just with different road users, but also same (car and car, bike and bike). Sharing is not just about bikes and cars. This morning I rode in, it was dark, along a neighborhood bikeway. Two other cyclists were just ahead. I could see a pedestrian waiting to cross. The two cyclists went by, I slowed and waved the pedestrian to cross and she called out, "thank you."

Legally I could just zoom by, I chose to let the pedestrian cross - sharing the space we were in.

I've waved cars on when on my bike. I've waved bikes on when in my car (even though legally I was not required to do so). I've been waved on by peds and bikes, in my car. I stop where safe to let others cross the road (for both peds and bikes).

I really think it is about sharing, being aware of who is around you, making choices. I won't always like others' choices, but I do not have control over them. Again, seems to have less to do with who is in what vehicle and who has what legal right, but rather about not liking another's choice when it seems to negatively impact us.

I understand the OP's frustration. I've had that with other road users. My frustration was not about whether the other had legal rights to be on the road, more about "I wish they could see they are doing under the speed limit and building a line of cars behind them, can't they pull over for a bit to let some of us by?"

Anyway, just saying ...:D

[jobob]

Seems like this kinda went from the OP more or less venting about an experience to 4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good.

Well. That sure simplifies it.

Here's another very simple way to look at it:

What matters more to you ...
a few moments out of your apparently busy busy busy day, or,
someone else's lifetime?

Hmm?

[jobob]

This thread saddens me so.

Next time I'm going down a hill I'll probably start to wonder yet again if the person behind me is getting his or her panties in a knot on account of my existence (yes, I still do that to this day, old habits die hard!), but now, even worse, I'll wonder if its a TE'er.

And I'll probably be even more likely to try to slow down and try to move over to the right to accommodate that person -- which, after all, is what the OP says I should be doing -- because, deep down, I still don't ever want to be in anyone's way. Even after all the crap I went through.

It wouldn't be safe for me to do that, and it would be downright stupid for me to do that, but, there you go.

[Biciclista]

JObob
read your first post in this thread and Ignore the other stuff. YOU are doing the right thing.

[jobob]

{{Mimi}}

[Crankin]

Well, this is not a comment on the particular situation (riding in the lane or to the side), but rather a thought that I think the OP was surprised that she had such a reaction to another cyclist and feels guilty. I identify with that, because it's happened to me. Mostly when the person (or group) is doing something blatantly impolite or illegal, but still, I feel badly that I am annoyed at a cyclist.
I am a timid descender, so I can see why some people would think it was safer to move right. I am pretty comfortable taking the lane anywhere, so if it's a curvy descent, you can be sure I will be out in the lane, because at least the drivers can see me. Since I probably will not be going over 30, the cars might get pissed, but I don't care. Most of the hills around here are not that long, so it's just a few seconds. This happens routinely on Strawberry Hill Rd., a major cut through street for both cars and cyclists, including big group rides. My street is off of this street and I have had to wait both going up and down the hill, if I am driving behind a cyclist. It's curvy and narrow and I won't put anyone's safety in danger.
The one time I did get really annoyed (yes, I wanted to *move*) was when a group stopped at the top of the hill at the stop sign and didn't signal, obviously didn't have good communication about which way the ride was going, and none of the riders were willing to put a foot down. They stood there, doing a track stand, looking like "where should I go?" I just waited, since it's a very busy and somewhat obstructed view intersection. The riders all started going in different directions! Good thing I waited longer than usual, because it took awhile for the ones who went the wrong way to turn around and continue on their way.
I just don't drive that way anymore on Saturday or Sunday mornings.

[Veronica]

Jo, I'll bring my train whistle next time we ride and blow it at you. :D

It so goes against my nature, but I'm really working this year on being less judgemental of others. It's so easy to think, "Well, that's not what I would do." That's what really struck me in the original post.

She wondered why the bicyclist might have been doing what she was doing because the OP would not have ridden that road. Lots of rational reasons were given for the bicyclist's behavior. But none seemed acceptable to the OP.

Just because you would not do it, does not make it unsafe for someone else.

Jo, keep takin' the freakin' lane. I like your company.

Veronica

[JennK13]

I understand why people take the lane during a descent - and I typically stay out of the shoulder for descents for all the reasons mentioned.

However, this is not someone that's going down the hill and it takes her two minutes to do it and people should just be patient. This is someone that's repeatedly lapping a hill - so cars get to wait when she goes up the hill and cars get to wait when she goes down a hill.

These pullouts are for cars to use or trucks to let faster people pass them going up or down a hill - so we're not expecting her to do anything that a car driving that same stretch of road wouldn't do.

This is how I was looking at it, too. Is it safer to take the lane? Yes; but while the cyclist has a right to do so, you can also get a ticket for impeding traffic. Like Cataboo said, the road has pullouts, and they are there for slower moving traffic to use no matter what kind of vehicle they are in/on. There are places I dont ride because, even though I have a right to be there, it's not safe for me to ride there (sure, I can take the lane, but there are places I wouldn't drive a truck with a 5th-wheel trailer on, either). Some people have awesome skills and are fine on a descent at speed - there are many hills I ride where I am going as fast if not faster than vehicle traffic. Some people ride their brakes all the way down and impede traffic - and you can get ticketed for it. What's "safe" isn't always what's "right".


And I'll probably be even more likely to try to slow down and try to move over to the right to accommodate that person -- which, after all, is what the OP says I should be doing -- because, deep down, I still don't ever want to be in anyone's way. Even after all the crap I went through.

I see this as totally different. Almost everyone here has said that they would take the lane when needed to, because it IS safer to be there. But there is a difference in that you aren't doing hill repeats on a private, one lane road, or riding somewhere that may not be the best place in the world for cyclists.

I understand feeling guilty for being annoyed at a cyclist, too. But usually, I'm irritated at those jerks that give the rest of us a bad name like those who run red lights or ride on the wrong side of the path/street.

[XMcShiftersonX]

This thread saddens me so.

Next time I'm going down a hill I'll probably start to wonder yet again if the person behind me is getting his or her panties in a knot on account of my existence (yes, I still do that to this day, old habits die hard!), but now, even worse, I'll wonder if its a TE'er.

And I'll probably be even more likely to try to slow down and try to move over to the right to accommodate that person -- which, after all, is what the OP says I should be doing -- because, deep down, I still don't ever want to be in anyone's way. Even after all the crap I went through.

It wouldn't be safe for me to do that, and it would be downright stupid for me to do that, but, there you go.

Jobob! This post saddens me :( I know it's difficult to sometimes stand up and do what you feel is right in a situation, when you know others may get upset about it. But really, do what you feel is right and have experienced to be safer. Let people judge you, who cares? You can't spend your entire days thinking about what others are thinking about what you do, or you'll start to feel unhappy. I spent a long time doing the same thing, and even sometimes now find myself in those bad habits. The truth is though, that you need to live each day for yourself, not just in riding, in everything. The people who really know you and understand you will accept you, and those that like to judge people will be miserable. Be confident and focused on your own happiness :) Okay, okay that's enough motivational speaking for the day!

P.S. - You have just as much right to exist in this world as anyone else, don't let anyone feel like their needs are more important than your own. Okay, now I'm really done:)

[lph]

Another point is that maybe it's not always that important to do the right thing. I don't mean purposely doing the wrong thing, like endangering someone, but just letting it go and not making a moral issue out of a small situation that doesn't deserve it. Maybe the cyclist ahead of you isn't paying attention because she's upset about something, maybe she's in a huge hurry, maybe she's a newbie, maybe she's training for the ride of her life, maybe it just doesn't matter. Maybe the driver behind you looking exasperated is pissed off about something else, maybe she's met a dozen stupid cyclists on the way and you happen to be nr 13, maybe she's an insecure driver with her shoulders up around her ears and low tolerance for anything new.

Lord knows, I can be as judgmental and then some as the next person, but in traffic I really try to just not get so involved. Most of the time we just have to wing it as best we can, and sometimes people just make bad choices and have to muddle through.

[Mr. Bloom]

Like others have expressed, I'm concerned that featuretile feels the need to defend herself. I think that the lively debate is evidence that this is a worthy post / discussion.

In my role as an officer for the local club, I'm writing an OpEd piece for the newspaper. The purpose is to affirm the rights of cyclist to safe enjoyment of the rode...but it also challenges cyclists to remember that everything that is permissible is not necessarily beneficial (example: Indiana law allows riding two abreast, but there are many situations where that is either RUDE or UNSAFE or BOTH)

It probably is worth repeating here: The League of American Cyclists was founded about 10 years before the first cars were invented... Because "wheelmen" were challenged by rutted roads of gravel and dirt and faced antagonism from horsemen, wagon drivers, and pedestrians...ergo: roads are an ancient invention that weren't built just for cars

[PamNY]

I thought that what I was saying would promote people being more courteous to each other (both car and bike). I did not expect that so many people would think that what she does is correct.

They didn't pay attention to what you actually said, or to the conditions you described. Let's hope they are more observant when biking.

I think only one person addressed the actual issue -- which was the safety of the cyclist pulling into a turnout. Most people assumed you wanted the cyclist to ride on the side of the road during a fast descent, which you didn't say at all.

I agree that being courteous when you can do so safely is a good idea. I do it all the time -- as a car driver, pedestrian, Xootr rider, and cyclist.

[Eden]

I honestly don't feel like pulling any punches on this topic....

I think the OP started this whole topic hostilely by titling it "Hogging the Road" in the first place.....

I think that she probably instantly alienated the rider by suggesting that the road was unsafe to ride on in the first place - I personally would find it condescending to me if someone suggested I ride someplace "nicer" when I'm doing hill repeats.....

What really worked me up though was that the OP then tried to justify her desire for the rider to move out of her way by saying it would be more safe - which I'm calling complete BS on. If you truly cared about the safety of the cyclist you would just let her be rather than expecting her to move to allow you to get around. Do you really think its that easy to just pull over or stop on a 15% down grade - no so much.... just trying to dismount your bike while pitched forward like that can cause a person to slide and fall (especially on slippery cleats).

Debate whether she should be on your private road all you want to, but don't even try to pass off your not wanting to wait behind her as somehow caring about her safety. If you actually cared, you wouldn't have minded waiting in the first place and you wouldn't have started this thread...

Jobob - *never* feel guilt about doing what you need to, to be safe. One way or the other one of you (you or the driver) is ultimately "selfish" - but I think it is waaaaaaaaaaay more justifiable for you to be selfish with your health and welfare than it is for the motorist to be selfish with a few seconds of his/her time.

[PamNY]

What really worked me up though was that the OP then tried to justify her desire for the rider to move out of her way by saying it would be more safe - which I'm calling complete BS on. If you truly cared about the safety of the cyclist you would just let her be rather than expecting her to move to allow you to get around. Do you really think its that easy to just pull over or stop on a 15% down grade - no so much.... just trying to dismount your bike while pitched forward like that can cause a person to slide and fall (especially on slippery cleats)..

I don't actually know what the challenges of biking in the situation would be -- that's one reason I was disappointed the topic went the way it did. I love reading about biking in conditions different from what I experience -- it's educational.

Many of the dangers noted as being perilous for someone riding toward the edge of the road (animals running into the road, for example) would be easier to handle without a car behind you. If it's a lightly traveled road and pulling over meant I'd be free of a trailing car for a while, then I might definitely feel that pulling over would be slightly safer and therefore desirable.

[Cataboo]

If you are riding down a road that you don't feel you can slow down safely or use a pull off or pull over a bit to the side to let a car pass you - and by nature it is a 1.5 lane road in which 2 way traffic goes... Then you can't safely go down that hill - because what the hell are you going to do if a car is coming up the hill at you? You guys can tell me all about how the car should give way because there is no way that the cyclist can safely give way, but the reality is that if there's no way that the cyclist can safely give way or slow down, then she shouldn't be there.

And if that's the case that it is not safe to slow down going on that hill, or pull over in a pull off - then really, you shouldn't be lapping that hill. If you live in that neighborhood and you have to go down the hill to get home, then okay that's one thing - but doing that hill repeatedly isn't safe.

Op said that the rider was riding her brakes all the way down and going slowly - if that's the case, it doesn't sound like a situation where pulling over into a pulloff would be hazardous to their health.

I think op presented her concerns and how surprised she was to be irritated at the cyclist very honestly.

[KnottedYet]

Everybody should get off every damm road I'm on, regardless of whether I'm on a bike or in a car.

GET OFF!!! MINE!!!!!!!! OUT OF MY WAY AND OFF MY BUTT!!!!!!!!!

That's "sharing the road" in my book.

(ETA for the sarcasm-impared: /snark)

[smilingcat]

sefishness misplaced!!

So is the bicyclist selfish for hogging the lane on a fast descent?

what about the car driver who HAS TO BE IN FRONT OF A CYCLIST NO MATTER WHAT?

or the driver who is in too much of a hurry and can't be bothered by "inconvenience of a "slower" traffic albeit at the speed limit?

JOBOB BE SAFE AND TAKE THE WHOLE ()*&^)O LANE!! DON'T RIDE ON THE SHOULDER JUST TO BE "NICE"

If you are impeding traffic, maybe you should think of pulling over.
But if you are going at the speed limit, they can chew their cud.

Some of the beef I have is we were raised to be nice and polite and lately, its gotten on my nerves. And lately, I've been in or seen situation where a person was going out of their way to be nice and polite to someone downright rude and self-centered. Thus my caustic remark. I'm usually not this hostile but the misplaced nice and being polite just RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY!!

[oz rider]

They didn't pay attention to what you actually said, or to the conditions you described. Let's hope they are more observant when biking.

I think only one person addressed the actual issue -- which was the safety of the cyclist pulling into a turnout. Most people assumed you wanted the cyclist to ride on the side of the road during a fast descent, which you didn't say at all.

Here is part of the op in case we lean to revisionism:
She completely hogged the road and would not pull over, even though all she needed to do was move a few feet and slow down at one of the turn outs (no need to even stop the bike) and let me by. ... That's not sharing the road. Wish she would find another training place....

The OP is entitled to her view and I congratulate her for examining it. But the contrary view - that a car does not have an inflated right to priority - is equally valid. We're all equal but some are more equal than others? If anything, the car's capacity to kill confers a higher duty to give space and time around more vulnerable road users. If people could leave an extra 30 seconds per trip, both their blood pressure and cyclists would be safer.

jobob, I think it's encouraging that you would be quite safe with many of us (and most drivers) following you down hill or anywhere else.

[channlluv]

Holy moly. I don't think the OP meant to raise such a stink, and she sure wasn't attacking anyone personally about how they descend a hill except maybe the cyclist she was following that bugged her so much. I don't understand why some of you are taking her comments so personally.

I took her comments about the safety of the road to be indicative of her own experience (limited) and comfort level (low) with steep roads. She said she doesn't ride this road because she thinks it's not safe. I'm okay with that. As a less-experienced cyclist, I make the same choice when it comes to riding in traffic. Maybe OP was projecting her own misgivings about this road onto the cyclist. I'm just saying, maybe.

Grog, thanks for that detailed and well-reasoned list of reasons to take the lane. I didn't know half of what you were talking about because I don't do hills. Or traffic. I'm just not there yet. I'm strictly a quiet-neighborhood-street/MUP girl. But now I'll be a lot more cognizant of the dangers should I find myself on a one-and-a-half-lane road with a 15% decline.

I'd probably have gotten annoyed at the cyclist, too, if I thought she was snotty, rude, and discourteous to me and my neighbors. Some people just aren't open to friendly, well-meaning overtures, especially if those people are deep in a focused workout and trying to concentrate on getting up that hill one more time. Or maybe the OP wasn't the first resident of that road to comment on her being there. That could make her defensive if she thought people were complaining about her riding up and down their private road.

I would imagine a lot of us have been in situations where cyclists have bugged us when we were driving. It happened to me a couple of days ago, even. But still, I think OP's point is that this cyclist DOES have the opportunity to safely pull out and let faster traffic go by, but she chooses not to. It's a little fuzzy, not knowing what the actual incline is and how fast they were actually going, whether or not it would actually be safe for her to do so, but after being snubbed by her, yeah, I think I'd probably have the same reaction as the OP.

Nice is still nice. Manners count. But so does safety. Take the lane if that's the safest thing for you to do, but realize if cars are piling up behind you that you're putting an awful lot of faith in other people's driving, even if you do have every right to be there. Of course, that's true any time we're on the road, on four wheels or two.

One of the driving rules my grandfather taught me: "It's better to be right than dead." Meaning, be a defensive driver and if someone's going to do something aggressive or stupid, don't get in their way, even if you have the right of way. Doesn't that go for cycling, too? (I concede that that may be difficult if you're on a 20% decline going 50mph.)

Please be patient with each other. Those of you who are more experienced (Mr. Bloom, Mimi, Knot, Trek, BleekerStGirl), thank you for sharing your perspectives. I always learn so much from you and I look forward to your posts.


Roxy

[PamNY]

Here is part of the op in case we lean to revisionism:
She completely hogged the road and would not pull over, even though all she needed to do was move a few feet and slow down at one of the turn outs (no need to even stop the bike) and let me by. ... That's not sharing the road. Wish she would find another training place.....

Oz, what you quoted proves my point.

Maybe some of you haven't seen that kind of road? This is a road too narrow for vehicles to pass, so there is an occasional wide area in the road specifically designed to solve that problem. I saw them a lot in rural areas when I was growing up.

The presence of turnouts makes all the difference in the cyclist's safety. That the OP specifically said "at the turnout" proves she is thinking of the cyclist's safety.

Discussion of the dangers of riding near the shoulder clearly meets some sort of emotional need, but it has nothing to do with the actual road conditions in the situation the OP described.

[jessmarimba]

At this point, I think we're just all reiterating the same argument to ourselves. There is no way the OP could stand up to this, even if her points were valid and the way they came across was just misinterpreted (as can happen with text).

So, here's some virtual coffee and homemade poundcake to everyone, and I hope all of you have a good day today!

[Veronica]

So, here's some virtual coffee and homemade poundcake to everyone, and I hope all of you have a good day today!


What kind of pound cake? I only eat certain kinds so I won't have a good day unless it's the right kind.

Veronica

[Grog]

I spend a lot of time thinking about road safety both as a cyclist and as a driver (and as a pedestrian walking in construction zones every day and as an office dweller working in a building with laboratories handling hazardous materials and as someone who lives in a place where we're expecting a very big earthquake, probably sometime in my lifetime, etc.). I was taught to always keep an eye on my "emergency exits", it can save my life in a building, in a plane, on the road.

I couldn't help but think about this thread still on my commute this morning, forgive me for sharing some more thoughts. While I do want to engage with Featuretile's (the OP's) case specifically, and I feel for her considering that this thread has taken about the same turn as if she was asking about how best to listen to her iPod while riding, I think it's more important to think about the principles one should think of adopting as a cyclist and as a driver in similar situations (narrow, steep road, cyclist descending, followed by a car, road with pullouts).

Let's say I'm going down a hill, fast (even if I'm riding the brakes I will be going somewhat fast). What maneuver do I have to do to pull over on the side of the road, considering the dangers I have listed in my previous message?

- I can slow down in my existing position in the traveling lane to a speed where I feel comfortable moving over to the shoulder. If I have a car on my tail, it's dangerous to slow down while in the traveling lane: there is no way for me to know how much attention the driver is paying to the road, to my speed, or... to the stereo or to the toddler screaming in the backseat. I don't consider that as an option.

- I can move to the shoulder and then slow down. This is also dangerous because I become more exposed to risks ahead of me as I get closer to the shoulder, but still don't have the greater room for compensation that slower speed would give me. I definitely would not see that as a safe option either.

In that quarter-of-a-second when I have to make a decision about this (remember, this is happening pretty fast and I have other things to think about, such as my line descending the hill), I would probably decide to carry on with my initial strategy (take the lane) down to the bottom of the road. Of course, if there is a car or another obstacle coming ahead of me, I will adjust my course accordingly.

Because I'm that kind of person, and I felt there was a need, I would probably wait for the driver to catch up with me at the bottom - or if they passed me in a manner that did not feel safe, I would do my best to catch up with them at the next stop sign, and I would engage in dialogue with them as much as I can. If they were so close that I suspect they could actually see it when I was riding the brakes on my bike, the dialogue might make me a bit nervous though, and my words would not come across as peacefully as I would want to. I would explain the motive for my riding strategy to the driver, and see what happens from there, with the objective of better cohabitation and peace of mind for all involved. At that time, if it was a private road and the driver, as a resident, had an issue with me riding there, it would be a good opportunity to share it with me. However, I would not be very phased by the driver's remarks on *my* safety, even if the driver had a car on their rooftop and was wearing cycling gear. That's my assessment to make, and I think a lot of cyclists have a very poor understanding of their own safety anyway. Their problem, not mine (except when the other cyclist is my husband and is riding in the door zone - arrrg!).

As a driver, if this happened to me, I would perhaps feel a bit annoyed the first time this happened, like you Featuretile. Then I would spend a lot of time thinking about it - as you have maybe. And maybe the next time I would pull over to the side of the road myself (a much less risky maneuver for a car, especially if there is nobody behind me), stop, and count to ten. By the time I get on the road again, the "annoyance" would be long gone...

[OakLeaf]

Exactly, Grog, and thanks for that.

I think most all of us knew instinctively that the turnout is NOT safe for cyclists, but couldn't articulate why. (I'd add that the turnouts I've seen usually aren't paved ... and there's extra debris from the turnouts in the adjacent shoulder ... making them even more dangerous.)

It's entirely appropriate to expect someone to pull over WHEN IT'S SAFE, whether that someone is piloting a bicycle, a state mowing rig, a school bus, or just a car that they probably shouldn't be driving at all but think that they're okay if they drive 10 mph below the limit. :rolleyes: Or if they're driving a car in a safe, normal fashion, and the person behind them is on a motorcycle that can take the corners 15-20 mph faster.

Keyword: "when it's safe." Grog did a terrific job of explaining why it isn't.

Whenever I get annoyed with someone on the road (which is rarely a cyclist - and when it is, it's usually someone riding against traffic or doing something else that really frightens me, rather than just inconveniencing me) - I take a breath. Think about what it's really going to cost me to wait another ten seconds versus what it costs me in stress hormones, etc., to give in to the feeling. Then just deal with it in as non-confrontational a manner as I can.

[jobob]

Thank you so much Grog. (Oakleaf too! And everyone else who has chimed in.)

In particular, Grog's most recent post and her earlier posts are absolutely spot-on (imho, of course).

[jessmarimba]

I just wanted to throw this in here, too...

We are assuming (and likely correctly, but still assuming) that the OP is talking about a cyclist on a road bike. I've been known to do road hill repeats on my mtb, simply b/c that's what I ride on a regular basis. My mountain bike (and please don't judge me for the quality of my bike) would only go 25 mph on a descent if I threw it off a cliff. In that case, I would NOT be "sharing the road" by taking the lane and riding my brakes down in front of a car. Which is why, if it was me on my bike, it would be a better idea to pull off into a turnout. Besides which, I've already demonstrated my aptitude in flying over the bars and I'd rather do that behind a vehicle.

Not to argue with any of the valid points that have been made here. Simply to illustrate that situations may vary. I think the point everyone has made is that we all have to judge our situation and do whatever we feel is safest.

[Owlie]

I'm a little hesitant on commenting here, because I'd rather not be ripped to shreds, but here goes:

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I'm a newbie. I hate descents. I hate riding in traffic. I really hate having a car on my tail. I'll pull over at stop signs (easiest place to do it around here) and wave cars past me because I don't want them behind me. I wouldn't feel safe in the situation described--it's either possibly get hit by a car coming from either direction, or risk the shoulder, with all manner of road debris. I read the OP as projecting her own anxieties about riding on that particular road onto the cyclist--"are you crazy? I wouldn't do that!" I know I say this in my head as I read about many of you bombing down steep mountain roads or the like. :o And sometimes, I find that gets translated into "I wouldn't do that, so it must be stupid." I'm working on remembering that you all have different risk tolerances than I do.

And yes, I've found myself getting annoyed at cyclists while I'm driving. I take a deep breath, and remember what I'd like drivers to do when I'm out on my bike.

That said, if I were riding down a hill that steep, I'm not sure I could negotiate my way into a turnout. It would be easier on my nerves and on my current bike-handling skills to keep going in the lane, even if there were a car on my tail. I know there's a hill in my neighborhood where it's actually safer to ride in the middle of the road :eek: for a little way, because of the steepness of the hill and the way the road curves at the bottom. I'd hope that anyone driving behind me would understand and be a little patient with me.

Here. I brought a plate of cookies. Enjoy!

[PamNY]

IMy mountain bike (and please don't judge me for the quality of my bike) would only go 25 mph on a descent if I threw it off a cliff.

What a great description -- mind if I borrow it?

By now, I am consumed with curiosity about this woman.

If both the shoulder and the turnouts are dangerous, and she can't safely stop or slow down, what does she plan to do if a car is coming toward her?

[OakLeaf]

... I've had my hybrid to 37 on a straight (and not very long) descent. I certainly wouldn't do that on that bike on something curvy, not with my skills and the tires that are on it, but I'm just saying... unless your wheel or freehub bearings are seized, it WILL go that fast.

[XMcShiftersonX]

By now, I am consumed with curiosity about this woman.

haha... this made me laugh... because really, this poor woman has no idea that so many people have been debating what she should or should not be doing on the internet for days! So silly!

[Cataboo]

What a great description -- mind if I borrow it?

By now, I am consumed with curiosity about this woman.

If both the shoulder and the turnouts are dangerous, and she can't safely stop or slow down, what does she plan to do if a car is coming toward her?

That's what I want to know.

I think we need video of this woman coming down the hill and pictures of the road. And maybe her gps tracks so we can see how slowly she comes down the hill.

What exactly do they mean by riding the brakes? I've ridden with someone from TE who literally does not gain any momentum going down a hill because her brakes are squeaking all the way down (on a road bike no less). I'd hate to be in a car behind her. I hate being on a bike behind her.

I doubt op would want her to go into the turnouts if they're unpaved.

I just picture it sort of like a driveway or a cross street - if I have a car driving behind me and there is a driveway or a cross street, I just swing into the driveway or other street about 2 feet or so - just enough that they can safely pass, and then I pop back out. This of course depends on the situation.

Everyone keeps talking about unknown dangers that lurk in the turnouts for this woman (ruts? potholes? branches?) - which yes, those exist on hills you don't know well... But this woman is lapping the hill. I'm pretty sure she's had time to investigate whether or not the turnouts have unsafe obstacles and prepare an escape policy.... Obviously, a bunny or squirrel can still run across the road and those can't be predicted - but I wouldn't want a car riding its brakes behind me if that occurred.

[Biciclista]

all you have to do now is "map my ride" and find the hill!

[JennK13]

By now, I am consumed with curiosity about this woman.

If both the shoulder and the turnouts are dangerous, and she can't safely stop or slow down, what does she plan to do if a car is coming toward her?

This was kind of my point previously - there are just some places we shouldn't ride. She can't stop or slow down, she can't pull to the side, sure, she has the "right" to take the lane, but it's only 1 1/2 cars wide; when there's a car coming up the road, what is she going to do if the road is so treacherous that she can't do anything but ride down the middle of it? Just doesn't sound like a safe place to ride, much less repeatedly. Yeah, I've been out riding around with no plan of where to go, just to ride, and get "lost" or turned around and maybe you end up some place like this on accident, but to do it over and over and over again?

[carinapir]

You got that from the OP's public profile? Not that you did anything wrong, but the availability of that type of information is exactly why our wonderful hosts at TE posted the thread listed below with respect to "best practices" for Internet safety.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=31284

Yes, the OP's public TE profile. Now I feel uber-creepy but the info lead me straight there. :o

[indysteel]

Yes, the OP's public TE profile. Now I feel uber-creepy but the info lead me straight there. :o

I didn't mean to make you feel creepy. I just wanted to remind the OP--per TE's posted best practices--that having that information on her profile is perhaps not the smartest thing.

[oz rider]

If both the shoulder and the turnouts are dangerous, and she can't safely stop or slow down, what does she plan to do if a car is coming toward her?
She can see the oncoming car. She can't see the car behind (and most cycling fatalities, here at least, result from being hit from behind).

She can choose her own line past the oncoming car. She can't control the overtaking clearance the following car leaves her.

The road is 1.5 lanes wide so there is half a lane which the car won't be hogging. The oncoming driver will not be texting, talking on the phone or drunk and will be sharing the road, so its driver might even politely drop a wheel off the edge. After all it has an alphabet soup of safety devices to protect its occupants, while the other road user has nothing.

[XMcShiftersonX]

Whoa! That is super creepy... not that you were able to search a little bit and get that information... but that you guys actually care so much about this particular woman, and this particular hill. Just let people be. It really doesn't matter. I think this thread went too far two pages ago.

[featuretile]

This whole thing got way out of hand. I feel really attacked and like I should give up on this forum. Yes, all these comments made me feel very defensive and I would not put something up like this again.

Two people understood what I was saying - PamNY and JenK13.

I was surprised that I felt upset with a cyclist since I am one and I am super conscious and respectful of cyclists when I drive a car. I did not expect her to move over into a shoulder (full of debris or not) - there is no shoulder. On most of the road she needs to be in the middle. The pull outs are for cars and they are paved. She was riding a bike that had straight handlebars. The speedometer on my car read 15mph going down the hill behind her, so given the steepness, I assumed she was riding her brakes. I was not close enough to see her hands.

I certainly don't mind driving down a road after a fast cyclist. I don't need to be in front of a bike and I'm not worried about being 30 seconds late. I was worried about her safety. And yes, I was annoyed (my bad). There are blind corners and cars who will be ascending that won't see her. There have been times when a car going up and a car going down meet on a blind corner, and it's pretty close (there have been a few car to car accidents), so no one is driving that road faster than 25mph. I would not want to be in the middle on a bike in that situation. Why is it so incorrect for me to say what I would do?

As for people looking at my house, that's pretty weird.

[csr1210]

I understood where you were coming from. A lot of people had really great points about bike safety, and I'm a huge proponent of taking the lane, but in my opinion, the criticisms posted didn't really match what YOU described in your original post.

Anyway, I mostly lurk, but I wanted to say that I'm sorry you felt beat up and hope you don't give up on the forum!

-Christy

[Crankin]

Owlie, I pretty much hate descents, too, and I have been riding for 10 years.
Oak, I am the one you would hate to be behind on a ride. This is why I do very few group rides. The one group I ride with knows how I ride and gives me space. Since I pretty much drop all of them on the climbs, I lose no respect. Because as soon as I feel the momentum get going, I have the automatic urge to squeeze the brakes so I feel in control. Otherwise, I feel like my head is spinning off and who knows where the bike will end up. I won't belabor the point, as I have discussed this before. Yea, I have a problem with this. It doesn't matter if I am on a road bike or a hybrid, although the wider tires help a little (not much).
I would not ride on that road.

[OakLeaf]

Oak, I am the one you would hate to be behind on a ride.

Naw, on a ride I'd just pass you. ;) I'd go into the left half of the road to do it, too, when it was clear. :D And I wouldn't try to hold you up on the climbs, promise.

I ride with several people who aren't confident descenders. All women, which is a little bit distressing. Honestly, as I've said before many times, it was riding a moto that taught me how to see when I'm on a bici at speed, and that made all the difference in the world.

I might hate to be behind your bike if I were in a car, but I'd deal with it, I promise. :cool:

Featuretile, I'm sorry if I said anything that made you feel attacked. I think it was the thread title more than anything that got people's dander up. In spite of the digs - which I do wish hadn't happened - I think we've had a good discussion about safety here.

[tulip]

Wow, what a discussion!

Here's what I got out of the original post that I haven't seen mentioned yet: Featuretile took the rider to be a snoot because she wasn't friendly at the mailbox. This may or may not be the case. Maybe she's shy. I often get considered a snoot, when really I'm just shy. Maybe she was a biatch, so what? Move on.

Because Featurelite took here to be a snoot, she wasn't too pleased to be stuck behind her on the road. If the rider was more outgoing and fun, would Featurelite be more patient with her on the road? I have no idea, but it would seem reasonable.

Two lessons:
1. be friendly; people will give you more of a break later on. Us shy people just have to deal with it. Biatchy people shouldn't be so biatchy.

2. Try not to get miffed at someone you don't know because they do not meet your expectations.

(all other discussion points are valid, on both sides, although I tend to think that being stuck behind a descending cyclist for a couple of miles is no big deal and the driver should give the cyclist plenty of room and take a deep breath)

Come back, Featuretile! I like you, even though I might not agree with you on this post. But you were there and we weren't so we got off on tangents. Many of us have been in terrible accidents and so feel the need to defend our right to ride unscathed. As jobob has attested, and some others too (myself included), helicopters and trauma centers are not really fun places to end up.

(pass the pound cake, please)

[Mr. Bloom]

Featuretile: I hope you didn't feel that I put you on the defensive and apologize if I did;don't give up on the forum;) you'll make good friends here, learn a lot...but with every 10 good experiences, there's an occasional challenging experience

[smilingcat]

I was surprised that I felt upset with a cyclist since I am one and I am super conscious and respectful of cyclists when I drive a car. I did not expect her to move over into a shoulder (full of debris or not) - there is no shoulder. On most of the road she needs to be in the middle. The pull outs are for cars and they are paved. She was riding a bike that had straight handlebars. The speedometer on my car read 15mph going down the hill behind her, so given the steepness, I assumed she was riding her brakes. I was not close enough to see her hands.

I certainly don't mind driving down a road after a fast cyclist. I don't need to be in front of a bike and I'm not worried about being 30 seconds late. I was worried about her safety. And yes, I was annoyed (my bad). There are blind corners and cars who will be ascending that won't see her. There have been times when a car going up and a car going down meet on a blind corner, and it's pretty close (there have been a few car to car accidents), so no one is driving that road faster than 25mph. I would not want to be in the middle on a bike in that situation. Why is it so incorrect for me to say what I would do?

As for people looking at my house, that's pretty weird.
I assumed too much when I posted my vitrolic remark. And my sincere apology to featuretile for my remarks against her. Also please read Eden's thread on what it means to share the road. It's great post.

peace to all,