my congresswoman was shot today [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

Trek420

01-08-2011, 01:06 PM

Thus far, apparently not, though I'm going to keep my guesses to myself.

:(

I don't mean to politicize the board. Obviously Mrs Palin was not the nut to pull the trigger (and bring an automatic weapon with enough firepower to ....) but did he take her list and advice too literally? I don't know.

Sarah Palin posted images of Rep. Giffords’ name and location in crosshairs on her Takebackthe20 website, which encourages getting rid of Democratic elected officials in Republican districts. Palin is no stranger to getting people riled up. She famously tweeted, “Commonsense Conservatives and lovers of America: “Don’t Retreat, Instead – RELOAD!”

http://www.businessinsider.com/gabrielle-giffords-was-on-sarah-palins-hit-list-2011-1

People, please. This is America. Can we have discussion? Can we agree to disagree? Can we find some common ground instead of having to run for higher ground?

malkin

01-08-2011, 01:06 PM

...and a nine-year-old...

So sad.

Kerry1976

01-08-2011, 01:15 PM

There are so many disturbing and sad things about this whole event....but what really struck me is that she was in her community trying to talk to her constituents when this happened. She was trying to do the work of a good congresswoman - being out there with those whom she represents. How many congressmen do this? Mine sure doesn't.

I hope she and the others injured have a full and speedy recovery - and thinking of those who did not escape from the gunman with their lives.

As far as Sarah Palin's Target List, which apparently uses gun sights on districts - this is appalling, no matter what side of the political spectrum you fall. She should take this down immediately (it should never have been designed as such but too late for that now) out of respect.

Trek420

01-08-2011, 01:26 PM

She was trying to do the work of a good congresswoman - being out there with those whom she represents. How many congressmen do this? Mine sure doesn't.

Mine does! :) And we in his district sure appreciate it. Whenever congress is out of session he is right here holding public meetings, listening to his constituents. I've never gone but mean to someday. :cool:

We need that kind of discourse in a Democracy I think. Not just between rep and constituent but between the people themselves.

With an event like this will he and others continue?

I now hear per MSN she is alive, responding to some verbal commands, still under anesthesia. And her husband has arrived there by NASA jet. :o

KnottedYet

01-08-2011, 01:30 PM

This reminds me too much of the gunman (inspired by Beck and O'Reilly) who went to a Unitarian church's childrens' service to kill religious liberals. (and succeeded)

I don't recall Jesus advocating murder...

Trek420

01-08-2011, 01:42 PM

I don't know if this is correct but it's being reported that 4 elderly men took the automatic weapon armed 20 something gunman down :rolleyes:

Go elderly men!! :D My heroes.

Following this on the boob tube. While there's no telling what went on in the mind of this obviously very troubled young man early indications are that he's very disturbed and might not so much a politically motivated. The Congresswoman's office was vandalized recently in response to her position on health care (for it). But it may well turn out that this was the action of a very troubled individual.

Again, not to politicize the board but I think what is not said enough in the health care debate is that mental health care is health care. Access to it is life saving. Sometimes we could save is the individual effected and in other cases many others.

If that's the case I hope he gets some care and finds some peace. He has changed the lives of many who died and even those who survived will never be the same.

Crankin

01-08-2011, 02:53 PM

How true.
This is bothering me more than I care to admit. I know part of it is that I still feel like I'm a "Zonie" in some respects. But part of me is thanking G-d I made the choice to move back here, where I can be in my little blue state bubble.
The other part that bothers me is that I have relatives who probably are cheering...

emily_in_nc

01-08-2011, 03:08 PM

While there's no telling what went on in the mind of this obviously very troubled young man early indications are that he's very disturbed and might not so much a politically motivated. The Congresswoman's office was vandalized recently in response to her position on health care (for it). But it may well turn out that this was the action of a very troubled individual.

Yes, from everything I've seen so far, it sounds like the gunman was probably paranoid schizophrenic. He talks politically, but it's generic railing against the government, thought control, etc. He thought the government could read his thoughts...stuff like that. Knowing that he is mentally ill is a somewhat of a relief to me. Sounds like maybe any government official could have been his target, and not specifically a progressive Democrat. Maybe she just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, in a public space, where he could have access to her and quell the monsters in his head.

A terrible, terrible day. I was on Twitter most of the afternoon, and all the early reports said that she died. I am so very glad that she is alive and may actually survive this, but it's so terribly sad that others died.

ABC devoted their entire newscast to this tragedy tonight - a good choice.

emily_in_nc

01-08-2011, 03:10 PM

The other part that bothers me is that I have relatives who probably are cheering...

How horrible! I seriously can't imagine that anyone would be so cruel or callous. :mad: :( :eek: I hope that you are wrong.

Kerry1976

01-08-2011, 03:15 PM

A terrible, terrible day. I was on Twitter most of the afternoon, and all the early reports said that she died.

Recently our State Representative died of cancer. What was sad was days before he actually died, rumors were flying saying he had already died.

Crankin

01-08-2011, 03:25 PM

emily_in_nc

01-08-2011, 03:34 PM

Emily, this is why I have cut off all contact with them, despite the fact they are my only links to my mom, who died about 15 years ago and they live near me. I *hope* they aren't cheering, but they are gun toting rabid right wingers, who get the gospel from talk radio. One of my cousins is not quite as conservative, but he got super religious, which caused other issues. I've been reading Facebook posts from my friends in AZ (Phoenix area) and they are all really upset.

I read your posting on the other thread, about your family, and I totally get it. We have a couple in my husband's family who are like the ones you speak of in your family...but I am positive they are not cheering tonight.

KnottedYet

01-08-2011, 03:39 PM

How horrible! I seriously can't imagine that anyone would be so cruel or callous. :mad: :( :eek: I hope that you are wrong.

Giffords was on the Congressional LGBT Equality Caucus.

There is a lot of cruelty and callousness in this world. Be grateful you've never had to face it. There are people who cheer "God's Success" whenever a gay or gay-seeming child kills himself. There are people who tell the children of gay parents that God and Jesus want them to kill themselves (my minister's children were told this by two of their teachers in public school.)

It's ugly in the real world, and far too few people give a damn.

Trek420

01-08-2011, 04:07 PM

I think if any good can come of this is if learn to tone it down especially the hate. For one thing you never know who it will incite. So I think right now you can hear from Alaska a relieved "whew". ;)

We may find out the suspect (innocent till proven ...) is nucking futs; not right or left or fundamentalist or any 'ist just nucking futz.

Say he wasn't (although by definition shooting unarmed helpless people including children .... nucking futz) but say he got his motive from either Red or Blue .... we'd have mayhem and chaos in this country.

And for a moment today I think we came close.

People please if you want to target someone you disagree with target them for lunch, target them for "I'm gonna invite you out for a beer and conversation", "I'm targeting you for a bike ride or at least the recovery beverage".

We hate and fear the unknown. :(

Catrin

01-08-2011, 05:04 PM

I am speechless, this is the first I heard of this terrible event. I do not understand how anyone can ever think that murdering people you do not agree with is the answer.

Knotted, my jaw dropped when I read what was said to your ministers children...

OakLeaf

01-08-2011, 05:11 PM

How about some sympathy for Judge John Roll (http://judgepedia.org/index.php/John_Roll), too.

Koronin

01-08-2011, 07:07 PM

We heard about this on our way home from checking on a couple of housing communities. We're just starting to look at possibly buying a home. We had a sports radio channel on and they mentioned a college basketball game being postponed due to a mass shooting. We were like WHAT? Our thoughts and prayers go out to all the families of those who were injured and died.

azfiddle

01-08-2011, 08:46 PM

Thank you all for your comments and concerns. I really believe Gabby Giffords exemplifies the best qualities of an elected representative. I am heartsick over the extent of the tragedy and the injuries and loss of innocent lives. No matter what- if Gabby pulls through, her life will be irrevocably impacted.

Although the shooter seemed to be unbalanced, some of his postings refer to topics such as returning to a currency backed by gold and silver- currently in vogue among some of the more extreme voices out there.

No matter what one's politics are- civil discourse is essential for solving our problems. In this age of the 24 hour news cycle - we need those in the media to distinguish clearly between fact and opinion, and political leaders to actively speak up against threats or intimations of violence - and not to condone or turn a blind those who espouse violence against those they disagree .

It has been a very sad day in Tucson

Aggie_Ama

01-08-2011, 09:32 PM

My biggest problem with this is that whatever the motive (politics, crazy, etc) someone thought this was the right course. I have a lot of problems with handguns (report I read said this was one) due to my personal experience with a murder of someone and the shooters known problems with mental illness. If he was indeed known to be mentally ill how was he allowed a gun? Was it an illegal acquisition? Red/blue it doesn't matter, there are people on many sides who see little value in a life that doesn't agree with them. No one's difference in opinion from mine is even worth a slap let alone their life. Differences in opinion make the world one I enjoy, sadly not everyone can live this way which is just beyond my comprehension.

badgercat

01-08-2011, 10:46 PM

I heard that the weapon was a 9mm handgun, and was acquired legally, but I haven't really confirmed that.

Anyway, I'm also a Tucsonan, and today was a bit surreal for me. I work at a performing arts venue on the U of A campus, where we're just a few days into a 3-week run of the musical "Wicked." While the university did postpone today's scheduled basketball game, we took the "the show must go on" approach--patrons were a bit more subdued than normal, but I think were glad for the distraction, especially during the matinee (which started ~4 hours after the incident, when details were still unknown).

It was kind of uplifting, actually, to see perfect strangers talking about what had happened, times that they had met the Congresswoman, looking updates up on iPhones and Blackberries and sharing them with seat-neighbors at intermission.

I don't think Gabby Giffords has a mean bone in her body, and she is someone who really seems dedicated to her whole constituency, not just the ones who agree with her. I'm proud to have her as my representative, and I do hope we see her back in the House, though I'm sure she has a difficult road ahead. My heart really goes out to the folks who lost loved ones today, especially that lovely little girl. :(

hebe

01-08-2011, 11:33 PM

My heart goes out to all the families and communities changed and hurt by this, and especially to the families who have lost loved ones. I can't understand how someone felt a gun was the answer.

Crankin

01-09-2011, 06:24 AM

After almost a day of reflecting on this and seeing pictures/hearing the stories of the various people involved on the news, it dawned on me why this feels so personal. The people who were injured or killed remind me so much of what I loved about Arizona... circa 1978 Arizona. Strong, independent politicians, smart people who often left the state to attend college and came back to serve the people in government, education, family businesses, farming. When I was in grad school the first time, I used sit and drink coffee every morning during the summer session, in the MU at ASU with Harry Mitchell, then the mayor of Tempe. But, he was also a social studies teacher at Tempe High School. Just a true model of selfless public service. I doubt something like that would happen today.

KnottedYet

01-09-2011, 07:01 AM

All night long I was haunted by the quote of Giffords telling Palin the gunsight hit list map on Palin's website was dangerous and irresponsible to publish. Unstable people do get swayed by these things.

That's a woman with political experience and political sense.

(I'm grossed out by the hit list map. Across the top it says "We've diagnosed the problem... help us prescribe the solution." http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/Giffords_Worried_about_Sarah_Palin_Putting_Her_in_Crosshairs_110108 )

Mr. Bloom

01-09-2011, 10:26 AM

All night long I was haunted by the quote of Giffords telling Palin the gunsight hit list map on Palin's website was dangerous and irresponsible to publish. Unstable people do get swayed by these things.

...and unstable people can be just as easily swayed by Projective Identification.

This is a terrible thing that happened. Shall we blame Sarah Palin? Shall we blame It on Giffords response? None of us know...Bad things happen...let's stop looking for someone to blame. This all could be a sad irony, but either way, left and right agree that it is a terrible thing.

I'm very upset because this is an UNamerican outcome and an American tragedy.

Disclaimer: I'm not a Palin fan

channlluv

01-09-2011, 11:35 AM

...
Again, not to politicize the board but I think what is not said enough in the health care debate is that mental health care is health care. Access to it is life saving. Sometimes we could save is the individual effected and in other cases many others.

If that's the case I hope he gets some care and finds some peace. He has changed the lives of many who died and even those who survived will never be the same.

Trek, this is the most ironic thing I've read or heard in all the coverage of this horrific event. Thank you for posting this.

Roxy

Trek420

01-09-2011, 12:15 PM

Trek, this is the most ironic thing I've read or heard in all the coverage of this horrific event. Thank you for posting this.

Roxy

Well? In the health care debate when some (disclosure: that some include me) observe that people without health care tend to find, get diagnosed, get treatment later on and be in worse condition when care starts which costs us more .... we are not just talking about the cancer found at stage 4 instead of early when a lumpectomy will do.

We are and should be talking about mental health and what we pay for lack of access. And what we all paid yesterday, some with their lives.

It was over 25 years ago that I had a bout of deep depression. Somehow I managed to get the care I needed. I don't recall exactly how because at the time I did not have insurance or my insurance didn't include mental health. But somehow I did. I am thankful every single day that I got the care I needed.

Could this young man have been turned around?

azfiddle

01-09-2011, 12:25 PM

My initial cycling destination today was the site of Congresswoman Giffords' office, where candles, flowers and messages have been brought, and people have come to reflect and share their feelings.

When I got home from my ride, my brother-in-law called to tell me my photo was on the cover of the NY Times (www.nytimes.com). You can tell it's me- I'm in a bike helmet....

I stayed for about 1/2 hour, just looking, thinking, and talking before going out for a little more private reflection time at Saguaro National Park.

Trek420

01-09-2011, 02:51 PM

When will I ever learn? Upon reading that the Westboro Baptist Church, that paragon of Christian values, will be picketing the funerals of people shot in Tucson, I said, "No way! Even for them this is over the top. What is wrong with those people?" They showed up to the funeral of Randy Shilts, Elizabeth Edwards, our veterans .... why am I surprised?

NbyNW

01-09-2011, 03:23 PM

Another point - Palin wasn't the only one to put a cross-hairs on a map. The Daily Kos did it too, but you aren't hearing about it.

Perhaps not to the same extent, but I did see the Daily Kos called out on this in an earlier story today. Don't remember if it was NYT or Huff Post or Wa Post, but I did see it.

For whatever reason, people pay more attention to Palin than Daily Kos, so that's probably why there's more focus on her now.

emily_in_nc

01-09-2011, 03:41 PM

I heard that the weapon was a 9mm handgun, and was acquired legally, but I haven't really confirmed that.(

Last night on ABC news, they said it was a semi-automatic Glog (?? I know nothing about guns so that may be the wrong term) and was indeed obtained legally a few weeks ago by the shooter. :(

I could say a lot about that, but I will bite my tongue.

PamNY

01-09-2011, 03:55 PM

Another point - Palin wasn't the only one to put a cross-hairs on a map. The Daily Kos did it too, but you aren't hearing about it.

That's not true. I don't recall where, but I've seen it.

It's not accurate to say that conservatives are being blamed for this. I've seen the question raised about the effect of inflammatory radio and TV personalities, but all reports I've seen make it clear that the alleged shooter is impossible to categorize.

Trek420

01-09-2011, 03:55 PM

Last night on ABC news, they said it was a semi-automatic Glog (?? I know nothing about guns so that may be the wrong term) and was indeed obtained legally a few weeks ago by the shooter. :(

I could say a lot about that, but I will bite my tongue.

Not sure of the spelling; Glok, Gloque? Glock? Semi Automatic with extended clip (room for extra rounds). I'm all for self defense, the right to arm bears etc but this is not on the order of "I'm just keeping this in case someone breaks in one night to steal my commuter bike" :o

BTW I was wrong about it being elderly gents who restrained the shooter. This is a great tragedy and yet could have been much worse but for a woman who had been shot and yet disarmed him: :cool: and the two gents who tackled him afterwards.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/arizona-shooting-hero-clarence-dupnik_n_806434.html

OakLeaf

01-09-2011, 08:11 PM

Okay, I've gotta say it.

Let's assume the equivalencies were true.

On what planet is that relevant?

"They're doing it too-oo" wasn't an excuse for leaving my toys lying around when I was three, and it certainly isn't an excuse for adults inciting to murder.

What happened to personal responsibility?

PamNY

01-09-2011, 08:29 PM

On what planet is that relevant??

This planet. It's completely relevant in a discussion of whether political vitriol contributed to this crime (I don't personally think it did, but that's probably age).

Partisan finger-pointing (featuring plenty of "my side is being treated unfairly" whining) is inevitable and completely useless, but pointing out the bipartisan nature of vitriol is valid.

badgercat

01-09-2011, 09:26 PM

I hope we can all agree that Fred Phelps is a jerk, because it looks pretty certain that the Westboro Baptist Church will be descending upon our city to picket the funerals of the fallen. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html?ref=fb&src=sp

Owlie

01-09-2011, 09:33 PM

Eden

01-09-2011, 09:53 PM

That is just beyond sickening. They are even justifying killing a *child* - who's the baby killers.....

Crankin

01-10-2011, 04:17 AM

I'm not going to get into the discussion about name calling... but needless to say, Trek's comments about mental health care is probably the most valid here. People with serious mental health issues (i.e.w/psychotic symptoms) can be influenced by the inflammatory comments of others. If anything, this speaks to the issue of mental health parity.
Oh, and the mayor I used to drink coffee with, that I mentioned in an earlier post? He is now a congressman from my old district. And he is also in the crosshairs on Palin's map.

Trek420

01-10-2011, 06:46 AM

That is just beyond sickening. They are even justifying killing a *child* - who's the baby killers.....

Why am I not surprised? These nucking futz (hopefully we all agree) are at military funerals, Elizabeth Edwards funeral ...

Hopefully the Patriot Guard will be there so grieving families will not need to even see their hate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6gneH1DRU

OakLeaf

01-10-2011, 07:27 AM

DH lived in Tucson about the same time as Crankin lived in Tempe. His house was catty-corner from where Loughner now lives with his parents. :eek:

lunacycles

01-10-2011, 08:16 AM

we all know how much was horribly wrong about this tragedy. Here's something that was miraculously right, and gives me some hope:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7230296n

badgercat

01-10-2011, 08:29 AM

I just watched a live press conference from University Medical Center on local TV. 8 victims are still hospitalized there: 2 in good or fair condition, 5 in serious condition, and one in critical condition (Congresswoman Giffords). One other patient has already been discharged. Giffords and one of the serious condition patients are in ICU, but the rest are on "regular" wards. Giffords continues to respond to simple commands (apparently things like squeezing a hand, wiggling toes). Assessing any more complicated function than that would be next to impossible with the ventilator and the heavy sedation. Swelling in her brain does not seem to be a problem, but apparently that normally peaks on or around the 3rd day post-trauma (which would be tomorrow). The doctors who spoke seemed confident that all of the other victims will survive, and are optimistic about Giffords, though one remarked "She's not out of the woods yet."

Something that the head of the trauma department brought up that I appreciated hearing was that their job isn't only to "fix" people physically, but to try to make them "whole" again emotionally and socially. He referenced their team of psychologists, psyciatrists, social workers, etc, who all have experience with trauma patients and PTSD, and that they will be working with all the patients through their recovery.

Bottom line, I guess we can be cautiously optimistic for all of the victims remaining in the hospital today.

Biciclista

01-10-2011, 09:06 AM

Sorry, the guy was a conservative (a registered republican in the state of Arizona),. And it's true that he was "not right" he had mental problems. But that's what happens when strong public figures rant and weak minds listen.
The ultimate responsibility lies in the hands of the shooter, but it is hard not to see the connection between what he did and what some of our loudest public voices are saying:

1. Rush Limbaugh: "I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus – living fossils – so we will never forget what these people stood for."

2. Senator Phil Gramm: "We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

3. Rep. James Hansen on Bill Clinton: Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."

4. Ann Coulter: "We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too."

5. Ann Coulter: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

6. Bill O'Reilly: "ll those clowns over at the liberal radio network, we could incarcerate them immediately. Will you have that done, please? Send over the FBI and just put them in chains."

I dare you to find a similar list quoting liberal or left leaning public figures.

One of the things that has saddened and disappointed me is the finger pointing towards Conservatives. Why are Conservative's being blamed for this? Apparently the alleged shooter posted to the Daily KOS... not exactly known for it's conservative leanings.

and just because he posted on Daily Kos doesn't mean he wasn't also posting on conservative websites, which they have carefully cleaned off since the shooting.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Crankin

01-10-2011, 09:06 AM

Hopefully, there is a community crisis team that can provide services to any member of the community who is being affected by this incident. It's very common for people who even just live near the scene to have symptoms of acute traumatic stress disorder, which is basically PTSD that lasts no longer than a month. Many times, there are people who fly in to provide these services when there's a full scale disaster, such as a hurricane or earthquake, terror incident. I know that some of my professors do this.
As for the victims, they will intensive work with a trauma specialist.

I find that I am still feeling affected by this! I got really upset when I saw a facebook posting from one of my closest friends from college. She was raving about how "crazy it is to be in AZ right now, with all this football pre-game pep rally crap going on." Is she deaf, dumb, and blind? Of course, I didn't say anything, but instead focused on my one friend who is very politically connected with many of the people that Rep. Giffords works with, and listened to her assessment of the situation.

badgercat

01-10-2011, 09:32 AM

Hopefully, there is a community crisis team that can provide services to any member of the community who is being affected by this incident. It's very common for people who even just live near the scene to have symptoms of acute traumatic stress disorder, which is basically PTSD that lasts no longer than a month. Many times, there are people who fly in to provide these services when there's a full scale disaster, such as a hurricane or earthquake, terror incident. I know that some of my professors do this.
As for the victims, they will intensive work with a trauma specialist.

I know that the counseling wing of the Campus Health Service has opened its doors to anyone from the University who needs some help. I haven't heard specifically about crisis teams reaching out to the general public, but I was also at work 11 hours/day on Saturday and Sunday, so that doesn't mean they're not there--I just haven't been able to pay as much attention to the news as I would like.

I'm not sure how Tucson is being portrayed in the national/world media, but we really do have some forward-thinking folks running our city, and I'm sure things are in place (or at least in the works) for members of our community to help each other through this time.

Desert Tortoise

01-10-2011, 09:42 AM

I listened to the press conference on the radio. It was very encouraging to hear the spokesperson surgeon talk, at length, about the mental care of not only the surviving patients but also of the family members and medical staff involved. He said it has also been very traumatic for the staff at the hospital and that there is more to healing than the physical wounds.

He also expressed his appreciation for the community's support and how that also helps with PTSD and such. I really liked how he linked physical care, mental care and support. They seem to get the big picture with respect to the trauma.

And thankfully they are so respectful of the patients' privacy and not releasing details before their time.

dt

Crankin

01-10-2011, 12:07 PM

I haven't seen any negative portrayals of Tucson. It's more overall thoughts about AZ in general.
Personally, I realized too late that I should have been living in Tucson, instead of the Phoenix area! Of course, I did send son #2 to U of A, but I guess it was enough to send him off to enlist in the Marines!

Biciclista

01-10-2011, 12:14 PM

when i think of Tucson (and i've visited there a couple times)I will always think of those 6 people who were killed. they look like they were good people, and I know a lot of nice folks that live there.

KnottedYet

01-10-2011, 12:31 PM

we all know how much was horribly wrong about this tragedy. Here's something that was miraculously right, and gives me some hope:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7230296n

And can we please take note that in gunsighted "REAL America" Arizona, a Jewish woman was shot by a man with inadequate health care and her life was saved by a gay Latino young man?

(Flags in my state were at half-mast today for the victims in Arizona, and we all thought of your state during our moment of silence.)

BTW: Daniel Hernandez Jr. self-identifies as gay, and is a member of the City of Tucson Commission on Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Issues.

Here's what he did, which in all honesty is probably more than I'd be capable of doing, and I'm supposed to be a trained Medical First Responder:
When the shots began that morning, he saw many people lying on the ground, including a young girl. Some were bleeding. Hernandez said he moved from person to person checking pulses.

"First the neck, then the wrist," he said. One man was already dead. Then he saw Giffords. She had fallen and was lying contorted on the sidewalk. She was bleeding.

Using his hand, Hernandez applied pressure to the entry wound on her forehead. He pulled her into his lap, holding her upright against him so she wouldn't choke on her own blood. [snip]

Hernandez used his hand to apply pressure until someone from inside Safeway brought him clean smocks from the meat department. He used them to apply pressure on the entrance wound, unaware there was an exit wound. He never let go of her.

He stayed with Giffords until paramedics arrived. They strapped her to a board and loaded her into an ambulance. Hernandez climbed in with her. On the ride to the hospital, he held her hand. She squeezed his back. - Arizona Republic

Biciclista

01-10-2011, 12:33 PM

And can we please take note that in gunsighted "REAL America" Arizona, a Jewish woman was shot by a man with inadequate health care and her life was saved by a gay Latino young man?

:D:D:D Yes, Knot, you're right.

azfiddle

01-10-2011, 01:25 PM

I believe that quite a few organizations, schools etc have been setting up crisis teams. The school I teach in encouraged us to let kids talk about things today, and observed the national moment of silence. One of my students knew the young staff-member who was killed.

maillotpois

01-10-2011, 02:17 PM

She's a cyclist as well:

http://tucsonvelo.com/news/congresswoman-giffords-talks-bikes

Beautiful bike.

badgercat

01-10-2011, 02:41 PM

Maillotpois, I follow the blog you just linked, and I remember reading that story when it first posted. Thank you for finding the link, because I hadn't had a chance to dig it up yet.

I stopped by Gabby Giffords' office in Tucson today while out doing errands by bike. I snapped a quick picture but didn't want to get too involved with the photography out of respect for the smattering of people around who were in contemplation and in prayer. This really doesn't do the scene justice... the cards, flowers, signs, and candles extend beyond this frame, and there are dozens of messages chalked on the sidewalk.

It was a moving scene... especially the two school-aged boys I saw, each clutching a bouquet of flowers, along with their dad, who helped them read some of the signs out loud.

lunacycles

01-10-2011, 03:08 PM

Yo Knotted Yet. Yes, absolutely. I am on FB and here's what a friend posted after reading about the heroism of gay latino Daniel Hernandez (and I couldn't agree more...):

So much for gays and latinos being subhuman devils (as per certain political leanings). This could not be more poignant. Arizona, pay attention. You are your own worst enemy.

It's like the hatred inevitably creates a love, and you can't deny the love that comes out of something like this, regardless of what that love looks like and how it "meshes" with your political beliefs.
over 'n out.
y'all take care!

KnottedYet

01-10-2011, 03:13 PM

A group started after a mentally ill man inspired by Beck and O'Reilly went into a children's service at a church in order to kill religious liberals:

www.standingonthesideoflove.org

He succeeding in killing 2 people. One was a church usher, who placed his body in front of the crazed gunman in order to protect the children.

Trek420

01-10-2011, 03:19 PM

Beautiful bike.

I was gonna say Jamis based on the colors but then saw her name on the top tube :p So I'm thinkin' custom. Lunacycles, one of yours?

I hope she recovers to ride again.

maillotpois

01-10-2011, 03:24 PM

I was gonna say Jamis based on the colors but then saw her name on the top tube :p So I'm thinkin' custom. Lunacycles, one of yours?

I hope she recovers to ride again.

It's a Bohemian.

KnottedYet

01-10-2011, 03:30 PM

I hope she recovers to ride again.

Honestly, I doubt that is a possibility.

Maybe she'll be able to walk again. I doubt she'll be able to speak fully. Probably won't be able to feed herself (but maybe could swallow if someone else feeds her). Likely will be in diapers for the rest of her life.

Unless she was extremely lucky, having a bullet go through her brain is pretty much the end of life as she knew it.

Veronica

01-10-2011, 03:39 PM

It's a Bohemian.

Yep, and I just realized we took pictures of it when we picked up our Bohemian tandem in San Diego.

http://www.tandemhearts.com/coppermine/albums/SDCBS/SDCBS-17.jpg

http://www.tandemhearts.com/coppermine/albums/SDCBS/SDCBS-18.jpg

http://www.tandemhearts.com/coppermine/albums/SDCBS/SDCBS-19.jpg

Dave Bohm actually talked with us a lot about how excited he was that someone in the government was actually riding a bike.

How sad. And that's not a word that adequately displays the depth of emotion. :(

Veronica

emily_in_nc

01-10-2011, 03:45 PM

Unless she was extremely lucky, having a bullet go through her brain is pretty much the end of life as she knew it.

This incident serves to remind me how quickly everything in life can change in the blink of an eye. Gabrielle was such a beautiful, intelligent woman with so much to give and share, and it pisses me off to no end that ability was so callously stolen away from her without any warning. It reminds me that we all need to appreciate life's preciousness and to remember to tell those we love that we love them and to not waste time and life energy on trivial crap. The last time I felt this so strongly was when my dad died in an auto accident in 2005.

Just reading the last couple pages on this thread has me with tears in my eyes. :( It is very difficult to get my mind around the fact that there are people who kill others for no good reason, and simply impossible to grok that there are people, like the Westborough Baptist lunatics, who revel in such heinous acts.

Owlie

01-10-2011, 03:47 PM

This incident serves to remind me how quickly everything in life can change in the blink of an eye. Gabrielle was such a beautiful, intelligent woman with so much to give and share, and it pisses me off to no end that ability was so callously stolen away from her without any warning. It reminds me that we all need to appreciate life's preciousness and to remember to tell those we love that we love them and to not waste time and life energy on trivial crap.

This.

badgercat

01-10-2011, 03:52 PM

Mere millimeters one way or another can make a huge difference in head trauma, and every brain is different. I also haven't actually heard where the bullet entered or exited for sure, as I've heard some reports say forehead, some say side-to-side, etc.

We really just won't know until when/if they ease off the sedation and take her off the ventilator. Considering she's already made it this far, I just feel like it's too early to predict what her abilities will or won't be as a result of this event. She could even be physically fine but wake up with a completely different personality. Who knows? I'd rather wait and see than speculate at this point.

KnottedYet

01-10-2011, 04:05 PM

Nope, we won't know until later.

Everything I've heard suggests Daniel Hernandez Jr. held her brains in at the front with his hand, and (inadvertently) held her brains in at the exit wound against his belly as he kept her upright in his lap so she wouldn't asphyxiate on her own blood.

Maybe the bullet went right down the division between the two halves of the brain, barely nicking either. But I'm not betting she'll be riding her bike again. I'd love to be proved wrong.

I'm very glad my taxes (and yours) go to provide lifetime healthcare for members of Congress. She will need it.

Mr. Bloom

01-10-2011, 05:50 PM

Bike Writer

01-10-2011, 05:58 PM

To the posters who live in Arizona and are represented by this Congresswoman you have my sympathy over this tragedy to her and others who were killed or injured.

It's a very sad story reading about innocent people and children wounded and killed by a madman. There are bad people in this world and nothing can be done to stop random acts of violence by kooks unless we are willing to lock them all up to protect ourselves from them.

I just read a story today that says this alleged gunman was dropped from his community college and could not return until he proved that he was no longer a threat to others or himslef. I guess he proved just how much of a threat he was to human life. Too bad he was only expelled instead of locked up for his threat to "others." Before I get attacked for such a stern approach to this, one undisputable fact is that it's not possible for someone to kill innocent strangers from behind bars.

Biciclista

01-10-2011, 06:14 PM

Bike WRiter, I agree with you. Once upon a time, when someone was crazy, it was fairly easy to lock them up. THen came the Reagan administration, who let all the crazies out. Now it's very difficult to lock people up who are nuts before they commit a crime.

Trek420

01-10-2011, 06:35 PM

I'm not betting she'll be riding her bike again. I'd love to be proved wrong.

I'm very glad my taxes (and yours) go to provide lifetime healthcare for members of Congress. She will need it.

Yes, you're right. My tendency towards optimism got the better of me :o I should know better. I talk to people with brain traumas daily. I have no medical background but odds are even with the best of circumstances, luck and care she will never be quite the same.

Thanks, Veronica for the pictures of the bike. Somehow that was as moving or more so (yeah, we're bike nerds here :rolleyes:) than seeing her on the bike.

oxysback

01-10-2011, 06:35 PM

1. Rush Limbaugh: "I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus – living fossils – so we will never forget what these people stood for."

2. Senator Phil Gramm: "We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

3. Rep. James Hansen on Bill Clinton: Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."

4. Ann Coulter: "We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too."

5. Ann Coulter: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

6. Bill O'Reilly: "ll those clowns over at the liberal radio network, we could incarcerate them immediately. Will you have that done, please? Send over the FBI and just put them in chains."

I dare you to find a similar list quoting liberal or left leaning public figures.

Barack Obama: “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" (said at a Philadelphia fundraiser)

Bill Maher: I have zero doubt that if **** Cheney was not in power, people wouldn’t be dying needlessly tomorrow….I’m just saying if he did die, other people, more people would live. That’s a fact."

Liberal radio host, Mike Malloy: "Drudge? Aw, Drudge, somebody ought to wrap a strong Republican entrail around his neck and hoist him up about six feet in the air and watch him bounce."

Chris Matthews: "You guys see Live and Let Die, the great Bond film with Yaphet Kotto as the bad guy, Mr. Big? In the end they jam a big CO2 pellet in his face and he blew up. I have to tell you, Rush Limbaugh is looking more and more like Mr. Big, and at some point somebody’s going to jam a CO2 pellet into his head and he’s going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. Not yet. But we’ll be there to watch. I think he’s Mr. Big, I think Yaphet Kotto. Are you watching, Rush?"

Spike Lee: If I got (Condi Rice) a** on camera, I would put my Mars Air Jordans so far up her butt that the Mayo Clinic would have to remove them."

Trek420

01-10-2011, 07:13 PM

Would everyone please sing kumbaya, hand your so called opposition an IPA, calm down and in the words of a typical parent "I don't care who said what to whom first, or who hit who first :mad: (do I use "whom" with that?) stop hitting your siblings". We could go back pretty far in a who hit who first .... I'm not interested.

I am interested in adult discourse because this is where we are now and we need to move forward and talking is the thing that ultimately works. Of course if all you can do is scream obscenities and yell on talk radio we have other problems. ;)

As for locking up the insane some may need that for sure but my goal would be treatment. People are very stressed now, maybe it's the economy, maybe it's whatever but people need access to help if they choose to get it.

I have a friend whose sister has schizophrenia though you would never know it if you met her. She showed early signs of brilliance (the whole family is gifted) but also some disturbing trends. They got care. Result: she is a proud and good parent to an amazing daughter, she has a rewarding job in a health care field ... difference? The family has access to great health care. To any of you in the mental health field my hat's off, you are life savers too.

You know, some think we're crazy because we ride, ride so far, spend buttloads on gear .... do we really want mental hospitals to be the only way?

PamNY

01-10-2011, 08:18 PM

This just in, he:

Is a registered independent
Didn't vote in '10
Was obsessed with Mayan 2012 prophesy
Had a satanic style alter in his backyard
Has a mug shot that looks as looney as he was
likely developed a profound hatred for the victim when she didn't answer his arcane question at a town hall meeting...so thinks the FBI

So much for the Palin/Limbaugh hate speech theory...

A much stronger argument against the Palin/Limbaugh hate speech theory is the fact that assassinations (or attempts) are, unfortunately, hardly new in US history.

There's a rather good article in Salon (http://www.salon.com/books/history/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/01/10/lafantasie_political_violene) which says, in part:

"In reckoning with the extremity of the political rhetoric of our own time, a longer view of American political hyperbole and violence suggests that as bad as the dialogue between Democrats and Republicans is right now, it pretty much pales in comparison with the virulence that has characterized American political language since the nation’s founding."

None of this makes the tragedy in Arizona any less tragic (and I agree, the bike photo put a lump in my throat). But it is something we should keep in mind in discussing causes.

NbyNW

01-10-2011, 08:36 PM

No doubt Congresswoman Giffords has a tough road ahead, but I was encouraged by seeing this video of Bob Woodruff talking about his own experience (http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/bob-woodruff-dr-richard-besser-recovering-from-brain-injury-12578378&tab=9482931&section=12577118) with a similar injury.

Mr. Bloom

01-11-2011, 01:49 AM

I am interested in adult discourse because this is where we are now and we need to move forward and talking is the thing that ultimately works. Of course if all you can do is scream obscenities and yell on talk radio we have other problems. ;)

Ok, There is a large population in the country who feel disenfranchised right now because they oppose big government, believe in personal responsibility rather than government solutions, and are tired of being called ignorant because they are conservative. They are disenfranchised because they see the mainstream media as biased and as a result their message is only heard when ultra right wing blowhards (like Limbaugh et al.) exaggerate the message. That's unfortunate...but it's the reality to a large number of Americans who see themselves as mainstream...and this thread only reinforces it IMHO

I respect what you think about all this, but I simply disagree.

Now, I have to go shovel the snow off the driveway ;)

KnottedYet

01-11-2011, 06:26 AM

...and this thread only reinforces it IMHO

You certainly reinforced my opinion.

Deborajen

01-11-2011, 06:59 AM

A much stronger argument against the Palin/Limbaugh hate speech theory is the fact that assassinations (or attempts) are, unfortunately, hardly new in US history.

There's a rather good article in Salon (http://www.salon.com/books/history/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/01/10/lafantasie_political_violene) which says, in part:

"In reckoning with the extremity of the political rhetoric of our own time, a longer view of American political hyperbole and violence suggests that as bad as the dialogue between Democrats and Republicans is right now, it pretty much pales in comparison with the virulence that has characterized American political language since the nation’s founding."

None of this makes the tragedy in Arizona any less tragic (and I agree, the bike photo put a lump in my throat). But it is something we should keep in mind in discussing causes.

This is true, unfortunately. Reagan was shot, apparently by a wierdo who thought he was going to impress the actress Jodie Foster. Kennedy was shot. Lincoln was shot. The Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City was bombed. (I haven't been able to access the link yet - sorry if any of this is redundant.) It's really sick, and so sad.

I wish this lady the best, and my thoughts and prayers go out to her and to all the other victims of this awful tragedy.

KnottedYet

01-11-2011, 08:15 AM

For those who feel the need to do something constructive, donations can be sent to the Tucson Community Food Bank, Gabrielle Giffords Hunger Fund:
http://communityfoodbank.com/2011/01/10/community-food-bank-to-establish-the-gabrielle-giffords-hunger-fund/

Crankin

01-11-2011, 08:40 AM

OK, I'll say it. If people feel disenfranchised because they don't believe in "big government" helping people, then they don't really know what disenfranchised means. To me, that's just plain cruel, and kind of thoughtless, because in the end we all will pay more. Take the 48 year old vet I was seeing at the clinic for awhile. He grew up with a schizophrenic mother, managed to graduate HS and went into the Army. While in his first or second year, he was sexually assaulted in the Army and given an honorable discharge after going through a trial againsthis perpetrator. From his service to is country, he got about 15 years of homelessness, drug use, alcoholism, PTSD, learning disabilities (he had repeated TBI from playing football in the Army), jail, and paranoid schizophrenia. A wise doctor at the VA in Connecticut sent him up here, to a program that has him on his feet, going to college and acting as a peer mentor. He is disenfranchised. Some white guy who is angry because he can't get a job in manufacturing because he didn'tget any new training or education is not.
My take on all of this is that some people are just plain angry and they always can find someone to blame. If you dig a little deeper, most of the time you find something lacking in their lives. Oy.

OakLeaf

01-11-2011, 09:10 AM

Thank you, Crankin. And thanks Knott for the link, and your earlier link to SSL.

Someone I know attributed this following to Mohandas Gandhi. I didn't bother to verify the attribution, but authentic or not, it belongs here (and in every place of discourse):

I offer you peace.
I offer you love.
I offer you friendship.
I see your beauty.
I hear your need.
I feel your feelings.
My wisdom flows from the highest source.
I salute that source in you.
Let us work together.
For unity and peace.

Eden

01-11-2011, 09:33 AM

Indeed Crankin - disenfranchised isn't about not being in the majority. It isn't about not getting your way....

to deprive of a franchise, of a legal right, or of some privilege or immunity; especially : to deprive of the right to vote

PamNY

01-11-2011, 10:41 AM

Yes, I always notice the term "disenfranchised."

Women didn't have the right to vote when my grandmother was born, and they hadn't had it very long when my mother was born.

bcipam

01-11-2011, 12:48 PM

Funny... I started to do what Oxysback did... go out and find posts by liberals to prove a point... but then realize the point is... doesn't matter what politicians or entertainers have to say... crazy is crazy. It's no one elses fault what happened but the crazy person himself. When we all start to blame others, we take away responsibility from the person that is at fault. We can say "he had a poor childhood and his mother was abusive"... or "he was bullied by others" or "he listened to Rush Limbaugh" or watched some movie too many times or listened to some heavy metal song or ate too many twinkies... but fact is, he was crazy.

I predict more and more these tragedies are going to happen as society continues to break down for one reason or another (I can write a book about that!). We all need to be our brother's keepers... it's one thing to feel for and have compassion for crazy folks, it's another thing not to act and do something before people get hurt.

Next time I see someone acting and saying something crazy, I don't care, I'm going to call the police about it. Not that the police care, or will act but maybe eventually the person will be on someone's radar.

Tragic event. Sad all around. My prayers are with and for the survivors and the families of those killed.

azfiddle

01-11-2011, 02:04 PM

I was hoping that this tragedy might have become an opportunity to promote dialogue between the political parties, and dial back the rhetoric and draw a clearer distinction between broadcast news and opinion. That hope was short-lived as I read the transcripts from various media hosts....Perhaps the members of Congress will be less combative and a little less entrenched in their positions after this, for a while anyway.

Personally, I am still deeply saddened by these events and looking for ways to channel my feelings into a constructive direction. I hope to attend the memorial at the University of Arizona tomorrow.

Here is a quote by Gabrielle Giffords herself, though I don't know the original context of the remarks:

"We know that silence equals consent when atrocities are committed against innocent men, women and children. We know that indifference equals complicity when bigotry, hatred and ignorance are allowed to take root. And we know that education and hope are the most effective way to combat ignorance and despair".

OakLeaf

01-11-2011, 02:16 PM

More good news on her progress.

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-giffords-update-20110111,0,1099108.story

lunacycles

01-11-2011, 02:33 PM

Thanks for your words, azfiddle. I am amazed and impressed TE moderators have allowed 5+ pages of this to continue, and that is probably due to the restraint most have shown, even if it has gotten "political" here and there.

No one deserves to be the recipient of violence, regardless of their beliefs. I do believe the politically-tainted, violence-promoting rhetoric washing over this country the last few years especially--regardless of whether those promoting it "mean it"-- has had the potential to affect those who are lonely, confused, and vulnerable to it, and this can have catastrophic effects, and I personally believe that is what occurred this last weekend in Tucson.

Personally, I am so tired of finger-pointing or needing to have some stance, but I do wish for a more compassionate society (perhaps naive!) as a result of this, and I thank Gabby Giffords (about whom I knew little til 3 days ago) for her good work before this event, and I honestly have been holding in my heart a wish for her complete recovery (or something close to it) so that she can have the opportunity engage in conversation with those who mindlessly "targeted" her, and therefore allow the deeper healing to happen.

KnottedYet

01-11-2011, 02:55 PM

I remember reading about this extremely liberal dude, so liberal that everyone was scandalized and couldn't stop talking about him.

He treated everyone as if they were all equally valuable, treated rich people exactly the same as he treated poor people. He thought women were equal to men. The rich and powerful thought he was an awfully rude and dangerous wild card, going against the flow and breaking social rules and crossing class boundaries, convincing their daughters and sons to leave home and join his commune. The ruling class was in an uproar, he really managed to p*ss them off.

He did crazy stuff, like hang out with people who had horrible disgusting communicable diseases, right up there with AIDS. He even ate meals with them! He would touch them without gloves on!

He thought everyone deserved health care, even the people on the other side of the political divide, and he made sure he did what he could to see that they got it. The people in his commune thought he was crazy for helping the "wrong sort" of folks, but he did it anyway. He told them to watch and learn and give a d@mn.

He told the people that it was their duty to care for the poor, the ill, the elderly and alone. He said it was everyone's duty. Even if you didn't like those needy people, even if they smelled bad or dressed funny or ate weird food. And you shouldn't expect to be paid.

He kept saying that if anyone fell through the cracks, then everyone fell through the cracks, including himself.

His name was Rabbi Yeshua ben Yusef.

Now, Jared Loughner fell through the cracks. And he landed in a nightmare of people shouting hatred at each other and using guns as metaphors for solutions to the hatred. He needed a solution to his nightmare and he got a gun, and we know the rest.

The good Rabbi is probably one of the few people with enough love to handle sitting with Jared right now. But we really let the Rabbi down by creating a society where a child could fall through the cracks and grow up to be a nightmare-man.

"Whatever you didn't do for the least of these, you didn't do for me."

Biciclista

01-11-2011, 04:06 PM

wow, Knot, you are on a roll. Yes, exactly, I agree. Where is that man in current popular "Christian" thought?

Luna, I got too political and upset and Oxysback had to remind me that either side can point to nastiness in the other side.

But I have read the words of Gabrielle Giffords and it breaks my heart that one of the things she cared about the most was "toning it down" and trying to find common ground and civil discourse with other politicians in her own community. She didn't like that rifle sight map pointing at her. I wouldn't like it either!

I am glad she is doing so good. It also breaks my heart that so many other people are dead or seriously wounded partially because in our society it is incredibly easy to hurt people (with words or legal weapons of mass destruction) and it is so hard to put them back together unless they are very lucky and have good health insurance. ( a 12 year old came up with that observation, I can't claim it for myself.)

Deborajen

01-11-2011, 04:54 PM

KnottedYet

01-11-2011, 04:57 PM

I appreciate what you're trying to say, Knotted. The shoot-everyone-you-don't-agree-with metaphors aren't funny. We all love a little good slapstick comedy but this is just too much. And I don't have any use for all of this hateful talk radio, etc, either - not from either political side.

But blaming that for what this guy did isn't realistic. He has 22 years worth of potential bad influence on him, and who knows what it was, not to mention he might just be mentally ill and can't be helped.

Maybe you should re-read my post:

But we really let the Rabbi down by creating a society where a child could fall through the cracks and grow up to be a nightmare-man.

"Whatever you didn't do for the least of these, you didn't do for me."

I didn't blame the rhetoric. I blamed YOU. ;)

Shocking, isn't it, when we realize we all have our part to play. Did we write to our politicians telling them to tone it down? Did we call the police when we heard the neighbor beating his wife for the millionth time? Did we alert Human Services when the boy next door was wandering from house to house looking for a place to stay, because his mom was passed out drunk again? Did we donate to the food bank, even though we really wanted that XBox for Christmas instead? Did we step in when a co-worker was telling off-color jokes, and ask her to stop? Did we hand a "211" meal card and bus voucher to the homeless man begging on the street corner? Did we help the woman struggling with 4 kids at the grocery store? Did we wait patiently when the car in front of us stalled?

It all contributes to the world we live in. Everything that comes out of you adds to the stew we're all swimming in. Is it a healthy, hearty, nourishing stew? Or is it sewage? Are people drowning in it? Will you turn your back, or lend a hand?

WWRYbYD?

snapdragen

01-11-2011, 06:26 PM

thanks for your words, azfiddle. I am amazed and impressed te moderators have allowed 5+ pages of this to continue, and that is probably due to the restraint most have shown, even if it has gotten "political" here and there.

:) ...

Trek420

01-11-2011, 06:47 PM

:) ...

Thanks! :D Thanks Jeff, thanks Susan. This is the best place in cyberspace.

It's been quite the new year. Those in the Bay Area may have heard of the young man who was shot while putting his sister in her car seat. His mother threw herself on him to protect him. It was too late. :(

The young man is the godson of my coworker/podmate :( There are too d@mn many people dying especially getting shot.

As cyclists we all may experience the escalation of tempers as a car revs behind us or races to cut us off. :( I just think people everywhere need to calm down and take care of each other because we are all in this tiny blue boat together.

Bike Writer

01-11-2011, 07:56 PM

I refrain from jumping into the political fray out of respect for the dead and wounded in this tragedy, speaking only for myself I would feel like I was cheapening what they suffered. Their senseless deaths and injury deserve acknowledgment that evil exists - always has and always will - but what we must do is ensure that the person who committed this, when found guilty, is never given the opportunity to harm anyone else.

An observation of the discourse that has occurred here is that we are holding politicians on either side of the aisle to a higher standard that we are holding ourselves to. A breakdown in our "mini society" of this forum occurred quicker than a NY minute, tongues lashing, fangs barred, jabs were traded at lightening pace and yet we accuse the politicians, the news media (both the old guard and the new guard), society, talk TV, talk radio, movies, books, music or what have you of creating some kind of societal morass.

Reality shows that it's human nature to do these things. This world is a broken place and it didn’t start last month or 200 years ago, it happened near the beginning. Lest anyone thing that these comments are somehow self-righteous, know this – I am first among sinners.

Now watch the thread get shut down. :eek:

badgercat

01-11-2011, 10:26 PM

Tonight, a bike vigil started on the U of A campus and processed to the medical center where Giffords and other victims remain hospitalized, to visit the candlelight memorial. An estimated 150 cyclists attended. I was unfortunately unable to go since I had to work, but my boyfriend was there, and said it was pretty amazing. A local cycling blogger we follow has already put out a video from tonight's event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRxO2nKPlgE

PamNY

01-12-2011, 04:43 AM

An observation of the discourse that has occurred here is that we are holding politicians on either side of the aisle to a higher standard that we are holding ourselves to. A breakdown in our "mini society" of this forum occurred quicker than a NY minute, tongues lashing, fangs barred, jabs were traded at lightening pace and yet we accuse the politicians, the news media (both the old guard and the new guard), society, talk TV, talk radio, movies, books, music or what have you of creating some kind of societal morass.

I thought this was a very civilized discussion. Were some posts removed?

KnottedYet

01-12-2011, 05:07 AM

A breakdown in our "mini society" of this forum occurred quicker than a NY minute, tongues lashing, fangs barred, jabs were traded at lightening pace

????

I also think this has been a very civilized discussion.

People have policed themselves.

People have apologized for things said in the heat of the moment.

People have taken each others points into consideration, and written further on each other's points.

An observation of the discourse that has occurred here is that we are holding politicians on either side of the aisle to a higher standard that we are holding ourselves to.

You bet yer sweet bippy we hold them to a higher standard! If they want to be leaders, then they must LEAD. They MUST set a higher standard. That's the point to being a leader!

(First I was in despair because it appears no-one studies theology anymore. How about ethics? Philosophy? Political science? Are our finest minds just marinating in set-plot romance novels these days? {not that I'm disparaging folks who write or read romance novels, I know several fine authors who've had to write romance novels during lean times, and one can be surprisingly creative and subversive within the strict plot outlines the publishers give you! There has been food on my table because of those cheap little books.})

Crankin

01-12-2011, 05:41 AM

I most certainly have policed myself in this discussion. Mostly, because I don't want to be seen as bashing someone with a different point of view. Still, I am looking wistfully back at the sixties and seventies, when I felt like I had the power of a lot of people behind my own beliefs and actions.
You have heard me mention my relatives who are super right wing conservatives. I actually highly respect my cousin, who is probably the most right wing of them, because he is intelligent, articulate, and lives his beliefs. I just can't go along with having guns in the house with 2 teenagers and a child, or him thinking he can take away my right to choose. I cannot, however, respect my aunt, who just parrots the views she hears on talk radio and the half understood ideas she gets from her children.
In the last month I happened to look at the comments below a couple of news articles on Yahoo. I could not believe the vehemence spewed in the comments (all from the right wing view point). I won't look at that stuff anymore, but it made me glad to be in my bluest of blue state bubble. Frankly, we saw the writing on the wall in 1990, with regard to politics in AZ, and it played a significant role in our decision to move. I gave up a very nice life that took me years to recover, so I could bring my kids up in the same atmosphere I grew up in.

KnottedYet

01-12-2011, 05:49 AM

One of the weirdest things I came across in the news articles is that someone already checked Daniel Hernandez Jr.'s immigration status. (He's a naturalized US citizen from Mexico)

Obviously the young man is Latino, but was it really necessary to run his immigration papers? Did someone have the thought, "I wonder if Gabrielle Giffords hired an illegal immigrant for her intern?"

maillotpois

01-12-2011, 06:49 AM

This is, I think, one of the best discussions of the event: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction?xrs=share_fb

Did the toxic political environment cause this...? I have no f-ing idea. We live in a complex ecosystem of influences and motivations and I wouldn't blame our political rhetoric any more than I would blame heavy metal music for Columbine. And, by the way, that is coming from someone that truly hates our political environment. It is toxic. It is unproductive. But to say that is what has caused this, or that the people in that are responsible for this I just don't think you can do.

Boy would it be nice to be able to draw a straight line of causation from this horror to something tangible because then we can convince ourselves that if we just stop this the horrors will end. To have the feeling, however fleeting, that this type of event can be prevented forever. But it's hard not to feel like it can't.

You cannot outsmart crazy. You don't know what a troubled mind will get caught on.

He goes on to encourage growth and more positive discourse, and the overall message was quite moving.

snapdragen

01-12-2011, 07:49 AM

I thought this was a very civilized discussion. Were some posts removed?

Nope, none that I'm aware of.

snapdragen

01-12-2011, 07:51 AM

This is, I think, one of the best discussions of the event: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction?xrs=share_fb

He goes on to encourage growth and more positive discourse, and the overall message was quite moving.

The Jon Stewart commentary was awesome.

Veronica

01-12-2011, 08:11 AM

I really like Jon Stewart. His very real outrage at the inability to get legislation passed to benefit 9/11 responders was so genuine.

And that's the kind of crap that frustrates me with the right. I am very lucky to be in one of those higher income brackets. (No kids and I married a smart man :D) Although at the time he was a lance corporal in the Marines.

Why do we need tax breaks? Is there something I'm missing?

Maybe I feel this way because we didn't always have money. The welfare my mother received enabled me to become the person I am today. Maybe people who have always had money, don't "get it."

Veronica

badgercat

01-12-2011, 08:22 AM

More coverage of last night's bike vigil, including photos, and the video I posted last night: http://tucsonvelo.com/news/sights-and-sounds-bike-vigil-for-shooting-victims/5372

As someone who lives in Tucson, I can say that us average folks aren't overanalyzing the situation re: whether rhetoric did or didn't contribute, etc. The guy had real problems, and as Jon Stewart said in the monologue that's been referenced in the last few posts, you can't always outsmart crazy. We're looking for ways to heal and move on. And so far, two posts I've made about just that (about visiting the memorial at her office the other day, and the bike vigil last night) have been all but ignored because folks are wrapped up in the discussion on politics (or are discussing how they weren't actually arguing about politics, or whatever). Just sayin'... let's try to move on and look at the good things that are happening here now.

maillotpois

01-12-2011, 08:24 AM

Why do we need tax breaks? Is there something I'm missing?

Maybe I feel this way because we didn't always have money. The welfare my mother received enabled me to become the person I am today. Maybe people who have always had money, don't "get it."

Veronica

This is a drift, but I agree - and I don't necessarily think it's just because of your background that you feel that way. I was solid middle class my whole life and I feel the same way.

PamNY

01-12-2011, 08:45 AM

And so far, two posts I've made about just that (about visiting the memorial at her office the other day, and the bike vigil last night) have been all but ignored because folks are wrapped up in the discussion on politics (or are discussing how they weren't actually arguing about politics, or whatever). Just sayin'... let's try to move on and look at the good things that are happening here now.

The photos are very moving, and I have paid careful attention to your posts, even though I didn't respond. I do appreciate having some knowledge of what's going on locally.

I'm glad to hear that positive and visible things are happening in your area. The smallest things helped me so much after 9/11; the Red Cross put children's drawing on the barricades near my building. I wish I knew the child who wrote "I wish this didn't happen." He or she pretty much summed it up.

Crankin

01-12-2011, 08:50 AM

BagerCat, from what I can see, Tucson is handling the situation admirably. And I think the mental health issues are the ones that need discussing more than anything else.
Yes, this is a bit off topic. V, it's true that a lot of people, if they've never been without, don't understand what it feels like to be disenfranchised. But, it's easy to generalize about this, like anything else. I grew up solidly upper middle class, and I am just really grateful for the values my parents instilled in me. Then, when the shoe industry left New England, my family's money went with it. Thankfully, my grandparents pitched in, and I was not far from being out on my own. But, my poor brother, who is 11 years younger was sorely affected by the change in status.
Tax breaks? I don't ever think about that. DH and I have worked for whatever we have and if people have an issue with that, so be it. But, I still have the same values I had when I was young and struggling.

bcipam

01-12-2011, 09:23 AM

First just know, I regularly participate in a number of "politics and religion" forums... this isn't even close to being heated, just trust me on that. I generally don't come to TE for political chat but this discussion is interesting...

From someone who thinks most politicians are crooks and barely have their own families interests at heart when they do and say anything; and that most political talk show hosts are hacks and barely entertainers... When we start talking about policing speech... what people do and say... then we get into First Amendment rights and constitutional guarantees. Our government already polices too much; I loath to think they would also police "free speech".

That said, yes we as citizens can take action and 1) stop not only listening to the Limbaughs, or Hannitys, or Maher or whoever, but we must also stop repeating what they say... even if it comes from a third source. Every time I heard someone say "But Rush Limbaugh said this nasty thing or the other..." I ask, why did you listen in the first place? Why would you bother to repeat what the man says and giving him credit?

Second, we citizens can stop putting people into office who don't have a public interest at heart. How that is done, don't know. This last election in California, every incumbent was returned to office. Not a one of them is worth a cup of coffee but there you go; most voters are uninformed or detached from the process.

Lastly, and I am off the soap box, we need to be our brother's keepers in many more ways than just feeling sorry for them. If someone acts inappropiately we need to be able to take action. Of course, government has stepped in and provided many protections to these folks so taking action is difficult. But at least step up, call the police and report unusual behavior. At least, after something bad happens, they have somewhere to start their investigation.

Again society is breaking down so these types of instances will occur more and more frequently. I for one, don't want to get use to it but want to take a stand and try and stop it. Every little part helps!

Tucson is a great place and its citizens are full of grace and compassion... a lesson we can all take back with us.

Biciclista

01-12-2011, 09:28 AM

Every time i heard someone say "But Rush Limbaugh said this nasty thing or the other..." I ask, why did you listen in the first place? Why would you bother to repeat what the man says and giving him credit?

Second, we citizens can stop putting people into office who don't have a public interest at heart. How that is done, don't know. This last election in California, every incumbent was returned to office. Not a one of them is worth a cup of coffee but there you go; most voters are uninformed or detached from the process.

Pam yes, for sure people SHOULDN't repeat what these guys say. but they do and will continue to.

The second part: I think a lot of people start out in politics with the best possible motives. But power corrupts ultimately. That money is SOOO hard to resist....
Every one of them is on the Lobbiest dole... They certainly didn't all start out as crooks..

bcipam

01-12-2011, 09:57 AM

Pam yes, for sure people SHOULDN't repeat what these guys say. but they do and will continue to.

The second part: I think a lot of people start out in politics with the best possible motives. But power corrupts ultimately. That money is SOOO hard to resist....
Every one of them is on the Lobbiest dole... They certainly didn't all start out as crooks..

All true unfortunately... If I were in control of the world (bru-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!)... I would make it so that our legislators worked in a controlled environment and that lobbying was a violation of federal law (how is it not payola?????) subject to execution if caught; but that's in my own little fantasy world. Money (and power) truly corrupts absolutely!

People do and say alot of things they should not. I don't have to give them any notice or credit. Next time someone says "Did you hear the crap Limbaugh said???" Say "no I don't waste my time; why should you?"

azfiddle

01-12-2011, 07:08 PM

I attended the memorial service this evening in Tucson. I did not arrive early enough to get inside, but even from the overflow in the football stadium with about 15,000 others, the memorial event was moving and inspirational.

Parked my car about 1/2 mile away and biked to the event, but didn't get the hoped for quick get away as we had to cross a main road and it was blocked off for the various official vehicles to use.

Best parts of the evening: recognition of the 20 year student intern whose actions helped save Giffords life, the news that she had opened her eyes for the first time, the very even, non-partisan tone in all the speeches and the calming and inspirational words of President Obama.

Thanks again to all for your thoughts and comments.

Trek420

01-12-2011, 07:25 PM

Thanks Azfiddle and your bike for representing us. :) I am keeping your community in my heart, thoughts and prayers.

PamNY

01-12-2011, 07:30 PM

Azfiddle, I'm glad it was an affirmative experience for you and presumably, for others.

I hope the coming days bring peace and healing for your community and those affected by this tragedy.

crazycanuck

01-12-2011, 09:38 PM

As an outsider, i'm going to probably be thwacked for this but....

I have to say...isn't it the "we must have a gun because it's in the consititution" type culture in the US that's to blame?

lph

01-13-2011, 12:28 AM

While I personally am strongly against private gun ownership, I don't think one can put the blame on a single element.

I like Knot's take on it - we all bear responsibility for the world we are living in, by our actions or by our passivity. We're all both the good guys and the bad guys.

OakLeaf

01-13-2011, 03:56 AM

My take...

Loughner used his second amendment right exactly as responsibly as a lot of people have been using their first amendment rights.

Both are important political rights. Both have the potential to do great harm.

I could go on about the lack of civic education and what I think has CAUSED the irresponsibility, but I'll stop there. I too agree with Knott.

azfiddle

01-13-2011, 06:15 AM

Though my first response to the shooting, like many others, was to attribute a political motivation to the shooter... both information and reflection have caused me to focus on working to for positive change.

Gabrielle Giffords' husband has suggested donations to the Red Cross or Community Food bank as a way of expressing your support or feelings.

channlluv

01-13-2011, 06:23 AM

...Loughner used his second amendment right exactly as responsibly as a lot of people have been using their first amendment rights.

Wow. That's excellent. I'm going to be quoting you today.

azfiddle, thanks so much for sharing the bike vigil link. What a moving experience that must have been. Even second hand, I got a little teary.

I'm amazed that the young man who saved Giffords' life is only 20 years old. Has he been trained in emergency medicine, or was all of that just instinctive? He ran TOWARD gunfire. Who's going to do that? I'm pretty sure I would have been diving behind the nearest column or car.

Roxy

OakLeaf

01-13-2011, 07:13 AM

More on her progress, for those who haven't seen it.

Have your tissues ready.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/01/13/press-gaggle-senator-gillibrand-and-representative-wasserman-schultz-abo

Desert Tortoise

01-13-2011, 07:20 AM

Channlluv, he has some emergency response training. In interviews he talked about how he stayed with Giffords until the paramedics arrived and then moved out of the way to let them do their jobs. But, he would not leave her alone and stayed with her, talking to her and she squeezing his hand in response.

Hopefully you'll get to see some of his interviews with the media. Normally I'm not a big fan of this stuff but this young 20 year old is articulate and thoughtful. If I didn't know how young he is, I would have sworn this was a mature and experienced man.

And he just started his internship with Giffords 5 days before Saturday. Does Giffords know how to pick them or what?!

hebe

01-13-2011, 09:46 AM

This (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12146639) article has been on my mind very much these last few days. It's a very simple profile of those who lost their lives in this senseless attack. My thoughts remain with the families and communities affected.

Trek420

01-13-2011, 01:00 PM

KnottedYet

01-13-2011, 05:36 PM

I am profoundly moved that the National 9/11 Flag Quilt was at Christina Green's funeral. As one commentator said, she was born on one day of national mourning and died on another. http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/01/13/arizona.flag.memorial/?hpt=C2

I am also deeply grateful that so many people organized to help protect the little girl's funeral from the Baptists who publicized their plans to protest and demonstrate in front of it. And grateful to Ms. Brewer, who passed emergency legislation to protect the funerals of the other victims from the Baptists.

tzvia

01-13-2011, 06:46 PM

As an outsider, i'm going to probably be thwacked for this but....

I have to say...isn't it the "we must have a gun because it's in the consititution" type culture in the US that's to blame?

As a gun owner, (and yes I own a 9mm and 20 and 30 round magazines), I would say no. Please remember, that Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with fertilizer. What a killer uses is just a tool. The user determines purpose, good or bad. What it looks like here is a case of an adult (he is 22) deciding not to get mental medical aid, not to take meds, but instead to take illegal drugs. He then reads some info about the evil of our monetary society, and blends it in his ill mind with his anti-Semitic delusions. He gets kicked out of community college as they fear he is a danger, but it does not appear they followed it up with the authorities as there was no record of this when he went to buy a gun last November as it did not show up on his NICS background check. He continues to take drugs and not see a doctor. Finally, he pops. That anyone would blame the gun is just missing what is going on.

Guns are used far more often in the U.S. to prevent crime than cause it. I have had to grab a gun in defense once, when several people dressed in black tried to come up the side of the house and get into my back yard at 1am. Thankfully, they saw it and gave some lame-o excuse and beat it quick.

Our neighbor to the south, Mexico, is dealing with drug lords running amok and the death toll there last year was 15,273 (not including crimes of passion). This is higher than the war in Afghanistan in the same time period. The citizens don't have the right to arms, and are dying like cattle; no ability to defend themselves. The drug cartels have lots of guns; they don't care about silly laws that say they can't have them. Here in the U.S. we can choose to defend ourselves. We have 3 times the population, and the right to arms, but our death toll annually is about 17,000 by comparison. I say we don't have Mexico's problem partially due to our law abiding gun owners.

Sorry for the long ramble, I'm off my soapbox now.

What happened is appalling. My heart goes out to all who are affected by this horrible tragedy. It's our mental health support that failed on several levels, but it's not going to be easy to fix. As an adult, he could refuse treatment and incarceration in an institution as he had not been found guilty of a crime before his rampage. So how does one balance our freedom against forcing someone into treatment against their will?

lunacycles

01-13-2011, 07:06 PM

Guns are used far more often in the U.S. to prevent crime than cause it.

I'd honestly be interested in seeing facts or documentation to support this statement.

Eden

01-13-2011, 07:17 PM

Guns are used far more often in the U.S. to prevent crime than cause it.

ummmm I'm opening myself up to a lot of flaming here but that is not true...... owning a gun makes you 3 times more likely than a non gun owner to die from gun violence...

Guns are actually pretty rarely used for self defense. Firearms are actually only used for self defense in .2% of crimes and that isn't necessarily *successfully*... Meanwhile 66% of homicides and 8% of violent rapes involve firearms. If you are determined to use a gun to prevent a crime you have to be mentally and physically prepared to kill another human being.

I'll admit - I am a ardently for gun control and there will never be one in my house.

Trek420

01-13-2011, 08:11 PM

I have a healthy respect for aka fear of guns, would never have one in my home, nor knowingly be in a home with a gun. And yet I agree with your right to arm bears :rolleyes: but I also feel that right ends where my right to be safe begins. It's complex and hard to balance too.

I train in Aikido, I'm a nidan. I've had to "use it" a few times. Once in an attempted rape, got out of the chokehold, pinned him, held him down till help arrived, another time another stranger threw a football block at me to drill my head into the pavement, I did a back roll and came up in a fighting stance. This was not what he expected to happen. He ran away yelling "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm ....", then on a night train a guy robbed our compartment, found him on the train, put the dude in a chokehold, retrieved our luggage, threw him off the (very slowly moving at the time) train.

It's also come in handy taking a fall off the bike. :p

I never ever ever ever ever want to "use it" again. Aikido is something I will always do although I'm taking a break right now. If tomorrow I wake to a world with no need for self defense I'll still want to train. I do it for the love of the art, and because every so often I get a technique right. ;) It's a joy.

I'm sure there may be gun owners who feel the same about marksmanship, skill, expertise.

But I entirely agree with this:

What happened is appalling. My heart goes out to all who are affected by this horrible tragedy. It's our mental health support that failed on several levels, but it's not going to be easy to fix.

We have failed as a country with mental health. We have to remove the stigma of needing, seeking, using, wanting care. If you knew someone needed care for a medical condition you would not hesitate to recommend they see a doctor. The same should be true of mental health. I'm not blaming the school in any way but instead of "go away till you can prove you are sane" it should have been "here's our clinic, GO!"

Roadtrip

01-14-2011, 05:29 AM

I don't want to comment on any of the political aspects of this tragedy, but did run across this article that I thought some would like. It deals with Rep. Giffords stand on bikes in terms of urban transportation.

Honestly, it really seems the media need to back off. Gabby is going to be a LONG time in recovering and I'm really, really tired of the fighting back and forth.. Red.. Blue.. how bout RED, WHITE, and BLUE.

If this has already been shared, then I'm sorry for the repeat.

http://www.commutebybike.com/2011/01/11/wishing-gabrielle-giffords-many-more-commutes-by-bike/

Shannon

PamNY

01-14-2011, 09:49 AM

Jon Stewart does it again (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-january-13-2011/veiled-criticism). More comic than serious this time, but still making important points, Stewart skewers the pundits' reaction to the Tucson memorial event.

Trek420

01-14-2011, 10:09 AM

If this has already been shared, then I'm sorry for the repeat.

http://www.commutebybike.com/2011/01/11/wishing-gabrielle-giffords-many-more-commutes-by-bike/

Shannon

Shannon, yes it has. But for you and others who have not read this whole thread skip backwards. We have a very moving "Only in TE" photos of Gabby's bike as it sat waiting for her to pick it up at the builders. It's post # 72 in this thread.

We've all found the photo very moving. Grab your kleenex. Get a box. :o

Thanks, Veronica for sharing those photos. And thank you TE and TE admins for possibly the most civil ongoing discussion in cyberspace. :cool:

Crankin

01-14-2011, 10:18 AM

That was hysterical.

channlluv

01-14-2011, 02:43 PM

...then on a night train a guy robbed our compartment, found him on the train, put the dude in a chokehold, retrieved our luggage, threw him off the (very slowly moving at the time) train.

Thread drift for a sec, but Trek, you through a robber off a moving train???

I love you. Once again, you're my hero.

Roxy - now thinking about taking up Aikido or Krav Maga

Trek420

01-14-2011, 03:31 PM

Thread drift for a sec, but Trek, you threw a robber off a moving train???

I love you. Once again, you're my hero.

Roxy - now thinking about taking up Aikido or Krav Maga

Trek's Travel Tip: When traveling don't take the night train thinking "I'll sleep on the train and arrive fresh and refreshed, save the cost of a hotel."

Take the train during the day, enjoy the scenery, get a pass and stop if a town appeals ... because I don't know if this is still true but back in the day there was a bit of theft on the night trains. :rolleyes:

But yeah, I was young, foolish, in better shape than I am today (though less advanced in the art), the train was moving but very slowly. I'm pretty sure he was not hurt but willing to bet he will think twice about robbing women on the train again ;)

Kids, don't try this at home ;)

But seriously the sole reason I brought this up is that everyone I've trained under has said that self defense, especially for women often comes down to grappling. You're going to go to the ground. And for most people a gun won't do any good there. If criminals knows or think you have a gun it may deter crime in the first place. I'm always for the crime that does not happen. But many situations are hand to hand at least that's been my experience.

PamNY

01-15-2011, 06:26 AM

Interesting NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/us/15profile.html?scp=1&sq=tucson%20shaped%20giffords&st=cse) about how living in Tucson shaped Giffords' thinking.

tzvia

01-15-2011, 06:36 AM

I'd honestly be interested in seeing facts or documentation to support this statement.

A very highly regarded professor of criminology, Gary Kleck, Ph.D. of Florida State University, did a study that shows that guns are 'used' (meaning anything from shouting "I have a gun, leave my house" to actual use) to prevent crimes more often (almost twice as often) than commit them. The information is out there, Google is your friend. When I was forced to grab a gun in my own home (thankfully they did not want to challenge my rifle) I was strongly anti gun- the rifle, a .22, was my father's and probably would not work if I tried, and was empty. It took the L.A. Riots to make me re-think my reliance on police.

As for the 'you are more likely to be a victim if you have a gun', that is skewed anti-gun nonsense. First, the data is taken from emergency room info- which leaves out the vast majority of defensive gun use like mine, no shots fired AND not reported to authorities. Also, it is skewed as violent people own violent things (not the other way around) and yes gang bangers, drug dealers and other violent type criminals do shoot each other. Sprouting that as proof that owning a gun is dangerous is quite a stretch.

Now, firearms accidents are another 'foaming at the mouth' anti-gun talking point that should be addressed while the topic is open. From the CDC (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html if you wish to look), the last year they have data, 2007, was 613, out of a population of 301,579,895, a rate of .20. This rate per 100,000 has been falling since the 1930s despite an increase of firearms ownership, population AND an increase in 'shall issue' concealed carry- citizens carrying firearms concealed in public. By comparison, 820 people died in bicycle-involved accidents, a rate of .27 so owning a firearm is is safer than cycling.

Sorry for the long post from my soapbox again ...

Aggie_Ama

01-15-2011, 07:06 AM

The more that comes out on this seems to be a failure of massive proportions on our mental health system. The shooter was acting out long before this, I view it as a cry for help.

I still am not a fan of handguns but my husband owns a shotgun and rifle for occasional hunting trips. My mom taught me to view any gun as loaded and learn were the safety is. I am completely okay with him having them. I am also completely fine with there being rifles and shotguns in the house with my nieces. The seven year old took gun safety this year and the five year old told me guns are not toys when she saw one on TV. That is the slippery slope with guns, there are responsible owners everywhere. Some people have guns for evil and are able to get them readily.

Trek420

01-15-2011, 07:31 AM

there are responsible owners everywhere. Some people have guns for evil and are able to get them readily.

Statistics don't matter when the godson of a friend is shot. :(

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/01/02/oakland-mother-covered-son’s-body-to-protect-him/

It's a complicated issue. There are responsible, trained owners who should be allowed to have guns. There are people who should never be allowed to have a gun whether because of criminal record, mental health, lack of training or lack of ethics/judgement .... and yet anyone can walk into any Wallmart and get one with extended ammo clip.

We ask more to get a drivers license than to get a gun. Both can take a life.

I have to side with and speak for the people who can't speak; victims of guns. The NRA has a lobby and that's fine. But C.J. can't speak.

lunacycles

01-15-2011, 08:20 AM

The information is out there, Google is your friend.

Yes. And if you keep googling you will find many studies and articles that show exactly the opposite. One article on the web doesn't say much. I asked the question because while I was attending graduate school we were given loads of evidence to the contrary: guns cause crime much more often than prevent it. The U.S. has the highest rate of violent crime of any country in the first world, that lack of gun control means "x" times as much people die violent deaths in our country. Our lax gun laws mean our guns can and do easily go south of the border to support drug cartels and the heinous crimes they commit... etc etc. Most of this info came to me a decade ago, but as nothing has changed wrt gun control (if anything, access to guns has become even easier), I doubt those stats have changed much. But I honestly don't know and am not interested in proving my point enough to do so in this instance.

Anyway, I agree responsible gun owners exist, but I think too many guns get into the hands of the wrong people as a result of poor regulation and/or enforcement, and it would behoove us all to do whatever we can to change that.

KnottedYet

01-15-2011, 08:45 AM

It would behoove us all to vote in ways that assure full mental health care for the most needy.

People with extreme mental illness cannot hold jobs. They can't get insurance through their work. They can't afford to buy it on the open market. And they certainly can't afford to pay cash for their mental health care.

Expecting them to self-diagnose, self-direct, and self-pay is cruel and deeply ignorant.

There is hefty mental illness in every generation of my family, but luckily the family knows and catches the cousins who begin to show signs of schizophrenia or bipolar. One of my cousins is institutionalized right now. If not for the family, where would he be? Where would WE be?

What about those whose parents are also untreated mentally ill, and so no-one catches anyone at all? (Loughner's family sounds like an example)

If Loughner hadn't had a gun handy, he would have used something else. A bottle of Chlorox. A sword. A crossbow. A bomb.

I don't see the weapon as the issue. I see the environment as the issue. Loughner showed clear signs of losing his grip, but nothing existed to catch him before he fell into madness and, surrounded by images of violence, saw violence as the way to go.

Sure, cutting publicly funded mental health care and closing the public institutions in the 1980's saved a ton of money.

But we still have to pay the price.

And it's a lot higher now.

Aggie_Ama

01-15-2011, 08:56 AM

Statistics don't matter when the godson of a friend is shot. :(

A dear friend of mine, a man I loved and adored was killed in a murder-suicide by his former partner. The guy that killed him had gotten his concealed license one month earlier, used a gun he had for his job in security and was unable to cope with their relationship falling apart. He followed him on a beautiful May morning and shot him point blank range in the chest in broad daylight while the 3 year old he was arriving to babysit watched. Even nearly 15 years later I find myself gasping for breath if I see a handgun, even cops I can't fully trust not to snap. I know both sides way more than I want to. I struggle immensely with believing my family should be allowed to own guns because it also means others can get them just as easily. And I wish nearly every day Keith could speak for himself, he had an informed and well thought opinion on everything if only he weren't silenced. Would he want guns restricted? Would he think anyone is capable of anything? Would he have an even better idea?

Thank you Knot for as usual saying what I want to say in such a clear manner.

Trek420

01-15-2011, 09:26 AM

Thank you Knot for as usual saying what I want to say in such a clear manner.

Yes, Knott is very wise. :) :cool:

Jolt

01-15-2011, 10:05 AM

Thread drift for a sec, but Trek, you through a robber off a moving train???

I love you. Once again, you're my hero.

Roxy - now thinking about taking up Aikido or Krav Maga

That is pretty impressive (as are the other stories--Trek, you must have some rotten luck getting into so many bad situations). Makes me want to think about taking up a martial art but I would have no idea which one (would have to find something where being 5'2" and 110 pounds would not put me at a horrible disadvantage).

KnottedYet

01-15-2011, 10:28 AM

Trek, you must have some rotten luck getting into so many bad situations). Makes me want to think about taking up a martial art but I would have no idea which one (would have to find something where being 5'2" and 110 pounds would not put me at a horrible disadvantage).

Trek is smaller than you.

Which is probably why she was targeted as an easy victim so many times.

I've seen her in action, she's pretty darn impressive! Tiny cute grandma-lady throws big burly dude across dojo, wheeeeee!

NbyNW

01-15-2011, 10:51 AM

That is pretty impressive (as are the other stories--Trek, you must have some rotten luck getting into so many bad situations). Makes me want to think about taking up a martial art but I would have no idea which one (would have to find something where being 5'2" and 110 pounds would not put me at a horrible disadvantage).

Wing Chun is a nice place to start. It was developed by a woman, so the story goes. I'm about the same size as you, and when I took Wing Chun some years ago, I felt like it was a good fit -- not that I have any thing to compare it to, but I do feel that it is something I will go back to at some point, if/when my life settles down a bit more. My reasons would be not so much for self-defense but just because I enjoy studying a form of movement and the sense of balance that I gain from it.

I think we've had this conversation before, but it bears repeating, and I'm sure Trek420 is much more eloquent about it than I could ever be -- the martial arts can offer you a great deal beyond self-defense. There are physical, emotional and for some people even spiritual benefits that can be gained from a lifetime of practice. Self-defense is a great reason to practice a martial art, but it's not the only reason.

In the martial arts, when you spar/fight/compete it is generally within a framework of agreed-upon rules and mutual respect. If you are being attacked by someone who is determined to cause you harm, it is a different ballgame.

In regards to self-defense, which is NOT the same as martial arts, you may be able to find a good weekend workshop/short course that focuses on self-defense for women. Some police departments or community colleges or other community organizations may offer these. They should teach you how to break holds, how to assert yourself and communicate to an attacker that you are more trouble than it is worth. How to hit back with everything you've got and not telegraph your punches. And most important -- if you have the opportunity, steer clear when your spidey-sense is tingling!

If reading about others' experiences and trying a beginner class or self-defense class whets your appetite for practicing a martial art, wonderful! If not, some basic self-defense still gives you some tools that you will hopefully never need.

For my part, I've been thinking about looking for a first aid course. I haven't taken anything like that since high school, maybe it's time for a refresher.

Jolt

01-15-2011, 11:01 AM

In regards to self-defense, which is NOT the same as martial arts, you may be able to find a good weekend workshop/short course that focuses on self-defense for women. Some police departments or community colleges or other community organizations may offer these. They should teach you how to break holds, how to assert yourself and communicate to an attacker that you are more trouble than it is worth. How to hit back with everything you've got and not telegraph your punches. And most important -- if you have the opportunity, steer clear when your spidey-sense is tingling!

I did take some women's self-defense classes that were offered in college, and they were very good (and included a simulation at the end of the course where we suited up in all kinds of padding and had to escape from one or two guys who were similarly dressed and "attacked" us...the whole thing was even videotaped). However, it was a few years ago and a refresher might be a smart idea...

NbyNW

01-15-2011, 11:45 AM

Yes, it's good to keep things fresh. As I was writing that, I was trying to recall what I had learned, and I was thinking it might not come back as quickly now as it would have a few years ago.

Trek420

01-15-2011, 05:36 PM

I think we've had this conversation before, but it bears repeating, and I'm sure Trek420 is much more eloquent about it than I could ever be --

Nah, you got it right.

I think we've had this conversation before, but it bears repeating, and I'm sure Trek420 is much more eloquent about it than I could ever be -- the martial arts can offer you a great deal beyond self-defense. There are physical, emotional and for some people even spiritual benefits that can be gained from a lifetime of practice.

It's not a sport, it's an addiction/cult :rolleyes:

In regards to self-defense, which is NOT the same as martial arts, you may be able to find a good weekend workshop/short course that focuses on self-defense for women. Some police departments or community colleges or other community organizations may offer these. They should teach you how to break holds, how to assert yourself and communicate to an attacker that you are more trouble than it is worth. How to hit back with everything you've got and not telegraph your punches. And most important -- if you have the opportunity, steer clear when your spidey-sense is tingling!

If reading about others' experiences and trying a beginner class or self-defense class whets your appetite for practicing a martial art, wonderful! If not, some basic self-defense still gives you some tools that you will hopefully never need.

For my part, I've been thinking about looking for a first aid course. I haven't taken anything like that since high school, maybe it's time for a refresher.

It may take years to learn enough basics that could help you in a situation on the street. If you feel you need to learn something look for a 1-4 day reputable self defense class.

I do feel that anything/everything we do that makes us feel strong, at home in our bodies makes us a less appealing target. So keep riding!

For my part, I've been thinking about looking for a first aid course. I haven't taken anything like that since high school, maybe it's time for a refresher.

Me too! Daniel Hernandez Jr. has inspired me!

badgercat

01-17-2011, 08:40 AM

Roadtrip

01-18-2011, 05:33 AM

Trek is smaller than you.

Which is probably why she was targeted as an easy victim so many times.

I think there is truth here and being seen as an easy target. I have always been a bigger gal at 5' 5" and over 200 pounds, hands big enough to palm a basketball, so I got my fair share of "space" when it came to "tough" situations. One one and only time I had someone try to rough me, I saw him preparing to throw a football tackle at me, so I lowered my shoulder and leveled the guy into a puddle of wheezing mess gasping for air.

I would still love to learn some real self defense and training on how to deal with the intense situation should I have to do that.

I've seen her in action, she's pretty darn impressive! Tiny cute grandma-lady throws big burly dude across dojo, wheeeeee!

Now THAT I'd pay to see!!!!

Trek420

01-18-2011, 06:07 AM

I would still love to learn some real self defense and training on how to deal with the intense situation should I have to do that.

No predicting what happens in the heat of a moment but I'd hope that today in a situation like your football dude that I'd step aside. He'd miss me, go sprawling and/or hit a wall or sumthin'

That's Aikido. :p

You may find that martial arts are not about the situation "If he does this you do that and if it's ...". You can't prepare for it, so many variables. Life isn't long enough to learn it all. But with the right teacher/school you may find a certain calm within should you need it.

And it's great for core, aerobic strength, good cross training. :cool:

Good teachers in martial arts will have the attitude that they hope you never "use it in real life", that's not what the arts are for. Finding the right school is the key.

INow THAT I'd pay to see!!!!

I've posted this before. The blond chickie is my teacher :p I've trained with all the others in this too. You'll see Kayla Fedor start, the 2nd technique she does at about 40 seconds with uke's neck stretched backwards? That is what came to me on the train. I still have no clue how I got to that technique because I really should not have been able to get there from where he was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnHEuGqAmEQ&feature=related

Jolt

01-18-2011, 07:43 AM

No predicting what happens in the heat of a moment but I'd hope that today in a situation like your football dude that I'd step aside. He'd miss me, go sprawling and/or hit a wall or sumthin'

That's exactly what I was thinking as I read about that situation...I'd just step to the side and then laugh at him when he took a header ;).

Trek420

01-18-2011, 10:32 AM

That's exactly what I was thinking as I read about that situation...I'd just step to the side and then laugh at him when he took a header ;).

Falling on cement is no fun, sometimes called a "crash burn landing". :p

Deborajen

01-18-2011, 07:37 PM

It always seems to come 'round to cycling... the Congresswoman apparently went for a ride with a friend the night before the shooting, and stopped to snap a cell-phone picture with him.

This blog post includes the picture, as well as a link to a larger NY Times article from which it was sourced. http://tucsonvelo.com/news/giffords-rode-her-bicycle-night-before-shooting/5455

Thanks for posting that. I was watching "20/20" tonight and they did a nice feature with her husband. They told a lot about her but I didn't see any mention that she's a cyclist. (I didn't get to see the whole thing, though.) Sounds like she's doing remarkably well. We'll keep praying for her.