Knee pain and saddle position

[Owlie]

I'll preface this by saying that I know I need a fitting. I'm still scraping the $ together for it.

DBF adjusted my saddle since the last time I rode outside for an appreciable distance (October, since I'm not counting NYE), for a better knee-over-pedal position. My knees, after half an hour on the trainer on the second-lowest resistance level, are not terribly happy.

Is it reasonable to assume that for some of us, the knee-over-pedal thing isn't quite optimal?

[OakLeaf]

That's what I've heard ... but more likely, did he change the seat height at the same time he changed the fore/aft position? Remember that changing fore/aft changes the distance from your hip joint to the pedal, so if you move the saddle back you also have to move it lower (assuming you were at a good seat height at the old position), and if you move it forward you have to move it higher.

[indysteel]

Before your BF adjusted your saddle, was your knee in front of the pedal spindle or behind it? Did he adjust your saddle height to account for the change he made to the saddle's fore/aft position? How much would you say that he changed it? Where does your knee hurt? Have you been giving yourself a long warmup on the trainer? Are you potentially just pushing too big of a gear?

For me, KOPS is not optimal in that I like to be a bit further behind the pedals. A good fitter will tell you that KOPS is just a starting place; there is some flexibility in the rule of thumb. That said, I think there are potentially a few other things that might explain your knee pain.

[LivetoRide]

Ditto Indysteel that it's just a starting point and needs to be played around with for some.

I recommend checking out this article-- http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

Scroll down to "Knee Pain (Knee Pain Location)" which is towards the top of the article.

[bluebug32]

You can put together your own plumb line with a piece of string and a nut or washer. This will give you some idea of where your knee is lined up. Also, be sure to make very small adjustments at a time.

As someone who has suffered from knee pain from a poorly fitting bike, I definitely think you're making the right decision to have a fitting. Good luck. That made all the difference for me.

[Melalvai]

I recently learned that there is more to knee pain than saddle height and (if you are clipped in) clip positioning.

My spin class instructor told me to ride knock-kneed, with my knees almost touching the top tube, to provide stability especially during sprints. I had first gotten that same knee pain on the only bike tour I've done (744 miles in 10 days). Then it came up two years later when I joined spin class last month. I am excited that I learned something in spin class that is applicable to road riding!

[KnottedYet]

My spin class instructor told me to ride knock-kneed, with my knees almost touching the top tube, to provide stability especially during sprints. I had first gotten that same knee pain on the only bike tour I've done (744 miles in 10 days). Then it came up two years later when I joined spin class last month. I am excited that I learned something in spin class that is applicable to road riding!

If someone has inadequate hip stabilizers, they can "borrow" stability by torquing on the internal structures of the knee. (Just like a person can "borrow" stability in standing by locking the internal structures of the knee.)

Can you ask your spin instructor to teach you how to selectively strengthen your deep hip rotator muscles instead?

I often see people after the damage has been done and their knees are toast. They are paying me hundreds of dollars to adjust their bike fit and their riding posture and strengthen their butts; and paying the surgeon thousands of dollars to repair the damage caused by habitually riding knock-kneed.

There is nothing wrong with dropping into knock-knee for extra power and stability when one is in dire straits (racing to clear the intersection before the semi running the red light). It is a valid strategy for extraordinary situations. But that is something the body will do automatically as it pulls out all the stops to save itself.

Riding knock-kneed is not something one should consciously try to attain or sustain.

A strong butt is your knees' best friend!

[malkin]

Isn't a strong butt pretty much a friend to all?
;)

[indysteel]

I recently learned that there is more to knee pain than saddle height and (if you are clipped in) clip positioning.

My spin class instructor told me to ride knock-kneed, with my knees almost touching the top tube, to provide stability especially during sprints. I had first gotten that same knee pain on the only bike tour I've done (744 miles in 10 days). Then it came up two years later when I joined spin class last month. I am excited that I learned something in spin class that is applicable to road riding!

To add to what Knotted said, my home spin tapes--which are "taught" by master spin instructors from Mad Dogg Athletics (they created "spinning")--repeatedly say to pedal so that your knees are aligned with your feet. At no point do they ever recommend anything else.

I rode very "kneed in" when I used a triple crank. I ended up with IT band issues and knee pain. My fitter thought the triple's q factor was too wide for me hips/knees and urged me to get a compact crank. I did, and my IT band issues went away.

All that's to say that while I think there are limited situations where it make sense to ride kneed it, I would not do it habitually. At least for spinning, I use a round pedal stroke and my core to remain stable.

[bluebug32]

Can you ask your spin instructor to teach you how to selectively strengthen your deep hip rotator muscles instead?


A strong butt is your knees' best friend!

you offer some great advice. Any tips on how to strengthen the deep hip rotator muscles or glutes on and/or off the bike? I love the thought of doing lower body weight lifting, but this often leaves my legs too sore to ride or makes them even more sore after a day of hard riding. I'm doing Robbie Ventura's training dvds this winter which often have me pushing a hard gear at a low cadence. Do you think it's still necessary to do additional exercises too?

[OakLeaf]

Isn't a strong butt pretty much a friend to all?
;)

That has GOT to be someone's sig line. If you aren't going to use it, mind if I swipe it?

[KnottedYet]

you offer some great advice. Any tips on how to strengthen the deep hip rotator muscles or glutes on and/or off the bike? I love the thought of doing lower body weight lifting, but this often leaves my legs too sore to ride or makes them even more sore after a day of hard riding. I'm doing Robbie Ventura's training dvds this winter which often have me pushing a hard gear at a low cadence. Do you think it's still necessary to do additional exercises too?

Clamshells (in all their variations, including monster-walks) and squats (only the proper-form ones).

Target the butt and the hip external rotators, the legs don't count.

[indysteel]

After being diagnosed with "gluteal amnesia," I did A LOT of "fire hydrants" and bridges per my PT's instructions. I actually did a lot of other stuff to retrigger and strengthen my butt, but those two come to mind.

[Owlie]

In order to rule out a) pushing too hard a gear and b)pushing too hard a gear on NYE due to winds, I took a few days off, and spent 15-20 minutes on the trainer today on the lowest resistance level. They weren't happy.

It's less knee joint pain and more the muscles where they attach at the knee. Same kind of pain that results from pushing too hard a gear, but I don't think that's the case here.

I'm pretty sure I need one of my cleats adjusted too. I feel like it's forcing my left knee into a position it doesn't like.

[Catrin]

...it's less knee joint pain and more the muscles where they attach at the knee. ....

Out of curiosity, is it mainly the muscles above or below the knee? Front or back? Behind the knee? Sharp/dull pain? I had some of this when my injuries fired up in September, though I am sure that your pain is more fit-related than mine was.

I did note in spinning class, before I improved enough to start clipping again again (in class only, not doing this on the bike again until late spring) that I would get sharp pain down the side of one knee when having to use those dreadful toe cages...

[Melalvai]

This is all good to know. I've been doing the fire hydrant exercises. I know my back isn't strong enough because I keep throwing it out on my upper body workouts. I've been given additional core exercises for that. I'll look into the butt exercises! I had no idea until recently how everything is tied together at the core.

[Owlie]

Out of curiosity, is it mainly the muscles above or below the knee? Front or back? Behind the knee? Sharp/dull pain? I had some of this when my injuries fired up in September, though I am sure that your pain is more fit-related than mine was.



Front, right above the knee cap. It's about where I imagine the muscles (quads and sartorius (?)) attach.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Front, right above the knee cap. It's about where I imagine the muscles (quads and sartorius (?)) attach.

Raise your saddle up higher by about 1/2" and see if that helps. Front kneecap muscle pain can be a symptom of a too-low saddle.

[Melalvai]

Tonight the Thurs instructor told me to ride knock-kneed. After class I told him all this, and he said "That is true but your knees are too wide. When you thought you were riding knock-kneed your knees came in line with your feet."

[KnottedYet]

Tonight the Thurs instructor told me to ride knock-kneed. After class I told him all this, and he said "That is true but your knees are too wide. When you thought you were riding knock-kneed your knees came in line with your feet."

Sometimes people open their knees when the saddle is too low for the way they ride.
It makes their legs act "shorter."

[Cataboo]

I'm pretty sure I need one of my cleats adjusted too. I feel like it's forcing my left knee into a position it doesn't like.

which pedals do you use? How much float? I use speedplay frogs so that my knees have a lot of choice over where they end up - but saddle height makes a huge difference in how happy my knees are and the cleat has to be in the right spot on my shoe.

[Owlie]

I'm using SPDs.
The pain is mostly my left knee, which may be made worse by that cleat. Another fun fact--I pulled out my Castelli shorts (the ones with the scorpions on the outside of the leg openings), and noticed that the scorpions were beginning to peel off on the inside of the left leg more than they were on the right. :( Could be an artifact of washing or whatever, but makes me wonder.

[Catrin]

Did your LBS adjust your cleats to this bike? I know that you are saving money for a fitting, but perhaps they would be willing to take a look at it and not charge much?

It sounds like the pain I had when I was relegated to using toe cages after return to spinning class awhile back after my injury. I had terrible sharp pains from time to time from my left knee from those da*n things. Thankfully I can, now, clip in for spinning, but your pain sounds like that. Wondering if your current cleat adjustment has your left knee just slightly off.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Sometimes people open their knees when the saddle is too low for the way they ride.
It makes their legs act "shorter."

that's like when you see grown men riding little kids' bikes- their knees are always sticking way out like those circus chimps riding bikes. lol!

[Becky]

Wondering if your current cleat adjustment has your left knee just slightly off.

This. It's amazing what a tiny tweak in cleat angle to do to improve comfort...

[OakLeaf]

Fore/aft cleat placement (which is a matter of how far your knee and hip extend, which muscles are bringing you power and what's going on in your ankle) can often benefit from an expert eye and measurement.

Side/side and rotational alighment are more, if they're off, they're torquing your knees every pedal stroke. You can feel that if you pay attention. Find someplace you can spiin steadily, preferably a reasonably flat road. Have whatever tool you need to re-position your cleat accessible. After you've warmed up, focus on how your knee joints feel. Does it feel like your tibias are being pulled to the outside or inside of your knee joints? Uncomfortably turned? A lot, or just a little?

Reposition your cleats (I always have to think way too hard about which way everything has to go, since my shoes are upside down when I'm moving the cleats :rolleyes:) and try again. See if that helps.

[Owlie]

Side/side and rotational alighment are more, if they're off, they're torquing your knees every pedal stroke. You can feel that if you pay attention. Find someplace you can spiin steadily, preferably a reasonably flat road. Have whatever tool you need to re-position your cleat accessible. After you've warmed up, focus on how your knee joints feel. Does it feel like your tibias are being pulled to the outside or inside of your knee joints? Uncomfortably turned? A lot, or just a little?



That's it exactly on the cleat adjustment! I can't articulate it off the bike, because I can ignore it until the last five or so minutes of my workout. Sounds like I need to scoot it a little closer to the bike.