Help w/ 650c wheels

[KimmyC]

Hi,

I would really be grateful if i could get some help deciding which wheels I should buy. I currently have a 650c Reynolds solitude and I am looking to upgrade my wheels.

Could someone please help me by listing which wheels come in 650c? I've looked into the zipp 404. Is there a similar wheel like the 404 that you could recommend? I'm looking to race and do crits this summer if I'm not too busy with work.

I am also unsure whether to go tubular or clincher. I am leaning a bit towards tubular because it supposedly will not have pinch flats and people say the ride is more smooth than clinchers. Does weight (I'm 100 bs and my bike is ~15lbs) affect the ride on tubulars and clinchers?

Thanks in advance for any help and happy new year!

[Seajay]

Hi,
I'm looking to race and do crits this summer

I'll dive into the dangerous waters of wheel recommendation. :)

IMO...If its in the budget...get the 404. There is no better wheel out there for efficiency and going fast. Any other wheel is a compromise based on trying to save money.

Since you are on 650, you can't get the Firecrest...but the "old" version just won Ironman under Mirinda Carfrae.
If you are OK with the extra work involved with tubulars...I highly recommend them for speed and cornering. The way a tubular flexes should give you lower rolling resistance and more stable cornering on rough roads.
Also since you do not have the Firecrest option...you will get the lighter all carbon rim with the tubular vs an aluminum/carbon rim with the clincher.

I'll still recommend the alum/carbon clincher over any other wheel if you decide that route.

You might consider renting a set for a weekend.
http://www.racedaywheels.com/racedaywheels.com/404_650c_tubular.html
I can almost guarantee they will blow your mind.

[Eden]

If you go the carbon tubular route, I would not recommend doing crits (especially as a beginner) on your expensive light carbon wheels... I've seen to many destroyed that way...

[Seajay]

I assume you refer to stacking rather than the wheels inability to hold up to a crit.

It's racing...you have to bring your good gear and a good attitude.
OK, I'm being a smart aleck just for fun. Please don't take offense. But really, criterium racing is a mindset. If you go in expecting to crash....

[KimmyC]

I guess 404 tubular is the way to go then. Too bad firecrest is not an option. I contacted Zipp and they said they have no plan to make 650c firecrest.

Now I was quoted a price of 1840 dollars for a set of 650c 404 tubulars. That price is only for the wheels. Is that a good price or should I shop around for a better price?

Thanks for the help!

[Seajay]

IMO that's a decent price. That's the price we used to have as our "sale" price for 303s and an older set of 404s.
We have seen a resurgence in people willing to discuss 650 wheels as an option for tri bikes...so 650 are holding their value here.

Oh...IMO you should use proper "in line" valve extenders not just the tube style.

[KimmyC]

IMO that's a decent price. That's the price we used to have as our "sale" price for 303s and an older set of 404s.
We have seen a resurgence in people willing to discuss 650 wheels as an option for tri bikes...so 650 are holding their value here.

Oh...IMO you should use proper "in line" valve extenders not just the tube style.

I'm not sure what you mean by in line extenders. I bought this one at rei and was planning on using what I get my new wheels. Is this not right?

http://www.rei.com/product/752226

[oz rider]

If you want to check what's available, google 650c wheels, check your favourite online retailer and check the Mavic/Zipp/etc websites. Your retailer should be able to answer the load limit question, but you'll often find it buried in the details of the manufacturer websites.

Have you considered custom as well as production wheels? If you have a good local wheelbuilder, it's worth a chat, especially with the limited options in 650c. That way, you get a wheel that's the right mix of strength/durability/weight/cost for your purpose.

And if considering tubs, check out an online tutorial first, unless you plan on having the LBS glue them for you. Tubs are a great ride but they do flat. Sheldon (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html) has a nice 'n easy list of pros and cons.

[KimmyC]

Thanks for the pointers. I have given much thought about it and in the end, I decided to just go with my gut and get tubulars. Here's hoping it's the right choice for me...

Any recommendations on which 650c tubular tires I should get and which width, 21mm? Also which brakes and brake pads holder will work with the zipp wheels, I have ultegra 6700. And finally, should I buy another ultegra cassette so I don't have to switch it? Is it hard to do or too time-consuming?

Is there anything else I'm forgetting? Thanks again for the help!!

[Seajay]

I'm so excited for you. Your riding will be transformed. It will be so much fun.
I would tend to recommend something closer to a 23mm tire for general racing. You may give up a bit of aerodynamics for TT but unless you are changing tires per event...23s are the best option IMO. I'm sure there are other opinions but I trend toward a bigger tire and less pressure for performance.
I happen to like Vittoria tires because they have a pretty flat seam and I have better luck getting them straight.
Zipp has a brake pad...either cork or rubber. I tend to recommend their pad for their rims.
The cassette thing can get a bit complicated because of chain wear. You don't want a skipping chain on race day. One neat trick is to get 3 or 4 new cassettes and chains at the start of the season...Weekly, switch them around so no matter what cassette you choose for a race....your chain wear will match it. That said...changing cassettes is easy once you have done it a couple times.
HAVE FUN!

[KimmyC]

I'm getting ready to put down a deposit in the next day or so for a brand spanking new 404 tubular wheel set! So excited but can't enjoy them quite yet because it's below freezing here and roads are covered by snow :(

Seajay, you recommended I go with 23mm tires but Zipp recommends 21mm. Is there any disadvantages if I go with 23mm besides the aero factor of it? Will it look kind of weird like bulging out of the rim or is it unnoticeable? Why would they recommend 21mm and not 23mm?

And are the Continental Sprinter good tires to buy?

Thanks!

[Seajay]

I think they are recommending 20/21 tires for better aerodynamics as it tucks the tire "inside" the airflow of the rim.
You should be able to run larger if you want to. It won't look strange. I had the "older" version of the 404 and a bit larger tire worked great.
That said...Don't take my word as gospel....I have a message in with our inside folks at Zipp...I'll see if I can get you a better answer.
Lots of folks used the Sprinters around here. Conti tires are a nice choice. IMO and only my opinion is the conti sewing seam is a tad larger which makes it a bit tougher to get a really straight install. I was never the most perfect tire glue-er...close to straight is close enough. I couldn't do it for a living.

[Seajay]

Here's what I got from Zipp this AM.
I can tell you that we are recommending to our pro teams as well as pro-triathletes to run 21mm tires with both 808's and 404's, and NOT to run 18 or 19mm tires. We have seen no repeatable aero advantage in using 19 or even 18mm tires with these new rim shapes (though with the new 404, there was a slight tendency for increased drag with the 19mm tire, and feel that the increased ride harshness, reduced contact patch, increased rolling resistance and so on associated with narrower tires just can't really be justified on either of these rims.

Now, if you are running an H3, old Zipp 440, Campy Bora or Reynolds wheel, then we have definitely seen advantages in the wind tunnel to running 18 or 19mm tires over 21 or 22mm tires, and I would strongly recommend them for those applications from a pure speed perspective, but with the newer Zipp rim profiles, I can honestly say use a 21mm at a slightly lower pressure, and save yourself the added harshness of the high tire pressure as well as gaining back some improved handling and still maximizing aero benefits. These latest generation wheels have been fully designed around 21-22mm tires, so you can be confident that you are not sacrificing any performance with them.

There is some additional info but it reads better in the tire pressure discussion elsewhere on this forum. (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?p=552647#post552647) I'll post it there.

[mixie]

Vitorria Corso Evo CX 320 tpi!!!

Awesome tires. I bought a set of used 404s for my 650c bike and they came with these tires. They rock. I also run the clinchers version on my training wheels.

http://www.discounttrisupply.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DTS&Product_Code=Vittoria_Corsa_EVO_CX_650_20c_Black_Tubular&Category_Code=TIRETR

[KimmyC]

Here is another option that I have. What about a 2011 Hed 4 in the front and Hed 6 in the back? I think this combo is similar to a zipp 303/404 combination, which I prefer I would prefer more than just a set of 404. I think I will have a more difficult time using the 404 wheelset in crosswinds.

Also, with the 2011 zipp 404 650c, I feel like it's older technology and yet I'm paying the same price as with the newest Zipp Firecrest, carbon clinchers. The 2011 404 650c doesn't even have the dimple technology! As for HED, I will be getting the same newest technology/innovations a 700c buyer would get.

Am I right in assuming these things? Or should I just get the zipp and be happy because it's a zipp? Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

[Seajay]

"I feel like it's older technology and yet I'm paying the same price as with the newest Zipp Firecrest, carbon clinchers."
2011 Firecrest $2600
650 404s $1840

?

[KimmyC]

the msrp difference is $400. the difference is minute compared to the advancements between the two wheels. Even so, I've decided to buy the Zipp and I cannot wait to put it onto my Diva and just ride. Warmer weather cannot come soon enough!