Kitchen renovation: just beginning, and already overwhelmed

[ny biker]

Apologies in advance for the long post here. I have never dealt with any home renovations before, and I'm hoping some of y'alls can provide advice and guidance.

After 6.5 years in my 1BR condo, I am finally getting around to re-doing the kitchen. Not that I've been idle all this time -- I've replaced the windows, all the appliances (including the 20-year-old water heater) and the heat pump. So now it's finally time to make things look nicer.

Brief background: I live in a garden-style condo, specifically a 3-story building with 6 units; the entire neighborhood of similar buildings and townhouses is one big condo association. It was all built in the 1940s as rental housing and renovated in the '70s when it went condo. The previous owner of my unit lived out of state and rented the place to various tenants over many years. So they only did minimal maintenance and made no upgrades to anything. The kitchen still had a harvest-gold stove and range hood from the '70s when I bought it, as well as a backsplash of matching harvest gold tiles. :eek: I replaced the stove and painted the tiles white as soon as I moved in, just so I could prepare food without losing my appetite.

I've got a general plan for what I'm going to do for the renovation -- replace the hideous dropped ceiling with drywall and recessed lights, install new counters and new tile backsplash, paint the walls and install a new floor. But I need advice regarding the cabinets. Here's what's swirling around in my head:

- The existing cabinets are real wood and quite sturdy. At first, I planned to just paint them white.

- However, they're 40+ years old. And I think one or two of them under/near the sink might have mold or mildew problems (I don't see anything, but I notice an odor during the summer when it's humid).

- I spoke to a general contractor whose ballpark estimate to re-do the whole kitchen including new cabinets is definitely more than I can afford. I expect other contractors would charge roughly the same amount.

- Refacing the cabinets is probably within my budget, and after considering that option I think it would look nicer than painting them.

- But if I reface or paint them, there's that odor in the summer. And they're really old, which will be a negative when I eventually sell the place.

- It makes no sense to replace the counters unless I am sure I will keep the existing cabinet frames for a long time.

- New cabinets would add value to the home.

- Perhaps one option is to have the contractor replace the ceiling for now, because that is my top priority and it should be done first anyway, and then find a different, less expensive way to replace the cabinets (like maybe Home Depot, Lowes or Ikea?) and then have a contractor come back to do the tiles and the painting. (I already know that the the counters and floor will be installed separately, arranged through the store that I'm buying them from.)

- In order to find out if it makes sense to do that, I need estimates for cabinets from places like Home Depot, Lowes and Ikea. How do I prepare for that? What do I need to measure?

- If I don't replace the cabinets, what can I do about the mold/mildew issue? Do I try cleaning with bleach, or is there something better? And is there any way to seal the shelves after cleaning them so it won't happen again?

So, that's my quandary. What should I do??

p.s. When all this is done, I'm planning to have white cabinets, blue walls (paint color will be C283 Banff from C2), white subway tiles for the backsplash, black counters with little sparkly bits of recycled glass (Starlight from Eco by Cosentino) and marmoleum floors (dove gray). I'm really excited -- my entire home kinda looks like "before" on an HGTV show, and I'm looking forward to having some "after."

Thanks!!!

[withm]

ceiling first - along with any ceiling light fixtures

Then demo cabinets, install new floor, install new cabinets

If you have mold issues, you probably can't "clean" it - the drywall or plaster behind the existing cabinets will probably need to be replaced. If there was ever a plumbing leak in that area that went unfixed for any length of time you most likely have mold. Best to bite the bullet and eliminate it.

You will like having new cabinets. I'd caution you about Ikea stuff though - it looks great but that stuff just does not hold up, and in a few years you'll wish you got real wood.

Be sure to take lots of before and after pictures. We all want to see.

Here's a trick - if you can't see into the cabinet to see if there is mold, stick your camera in there and snap some pictures - if it's there, the mold may show up in the photos. Or it may not - but costs nothing to try it.

[Possegal]

I've been doing a lot of renovation but have yet to even think about the kitchen. However my sister did go to Home Depot to just see about redoing hers and if I remember correctly the woman was really helpful and told her what information/measurements she needed to bring back so they could get her some estimates.

[Trek420]

Floor is first .... after you make all your decisions about the counter/cabs. If the footprint of the counters ends up being more ... or less :eek: footage than it is now and you don't have the floor you have big blank spots. :( Design, rip, floor ...

Now's the time to think about how you cook, what you cook, how you entertain, how the space works for you or why not. Because if anything is changing you'll yank it all out, lay down flooring and then cabs is a huge over simplification.

It all starts with the sink is what I found. :cool: Go pick a sink. I mean design first, then sink :rolleyes:

Have fun!! :D

[bmccasland]

Don't let Sears Home Renovations in your house. They do cabinet refacing / counter tops - but leave nothing in writing. So the bid you get is "today's special" - very high pressure to sign a contract that day. Snake Oil salesmen.

[Zen]

One thing at a time.
You can probably find other boards that could answer your questions better.
Tulip has gone though this.
I wouldn't replace the offending cupboards yet, especially since they're solid wood.
Try painting the inside with Kilz , then repaint a darker color.

Yeah. I just discovered my half bath has no electrical outlet.

[tulip]

Hi, welcome to the world of kitchen renovation.

I'm pretty sure I know the condos of which you speak. Not your unit, of course, but I've been there when I lived in the area and had several friends who lived in those condos. There's not much you can do about the layout of the kitchen unless you want to start taking down walls. Sounds like that would be over your budget, and I would strongly recommend sticking to your budget (I didn't and it's painful). Plus, the layout of those units works pretty well.

I would suggest that you reconsider getting rid of the existing cabinets. They are obviously solid and well-built if they have lasted 40 years. No Ikea or Home Depot cabinets will last 40 years! Refinishing or repainting, and replacing the hinges where needed and the hardware will look great. Also keeps stuff out of landfill, yadda yadda. Find out where that mold smell is coming from--it might not be from the cabinets. It might be from a leaking pipe that should be fixed.

Do the ceiling. Lighting makes so much difference! While you're at it, definitely install under-counter lights. Not the Ikea ones, but hardwired ones. You will need an electrician. He or she should also make sure that everything meets code, including GFI outlets. It's important to have permits in place and inspections passed for when you sell the place.

I'm rambling a bit but here's what I would do:

ceiling with recessed lights on a dimmer. Makes a huge improvement
under counter lights (PM me for my brand--I'll look it up if you want)
refinish/paint/new hardware on cabinets if they are solid
new sink, or at least new faucet. Huge difference.
Disposal if you don't already have one. Good for resale
countertop--I don't know what yours is. Mine is concrete and I love it.
tile backsplash. I have yet to do this in my kitchen!!! Winter project, perhaps (wasn't that supposed to be last winter's project?)

One of the reasons I encourage you to keep the cabinets is that unless you are going to get really good quality cabinets, they are just going to look cheap and won't hold up. Ikea stuff looks good, but after a few years, it starts to break. I have custom bamboo cabinets that I love, although they are very expensive. My kitchen had no cabinets, so I was starting from scratch. If you sell the place, good quality cabinets will really be a selling point. If you stay, you will enjoy really good quality cabinets (with self closing drawers--ooooh).

appliances: replace as needed. Not necessary to do all at once, unless you don't have any to begin with (like me). But that's not your case.

Remember, have fun! PM me for more questions if you want.

[tulip]

What's your floor now? If you are going to do the floor, yes, do it now. I kept my wood floor, but I woulda coulda shoulda refinished it (in entire house) before I moved in. Oh well.

[Trek420]

Ikea stuff looks good, but after a few years, it starts to break.

What she said. Get Ikea pillows, funny shaped lamps, coffee table if you want but stay awaaaay from kitchen cabs. I got new semi custom cabs from a local (not a chain) hardware store, granite counters, tile back splash, flooring. Beat the price of a box store.

But if I'd had solid wood cabinets instead of rotting badly laid out pressboard I'd have kept them and refinished, new hardware ... maybe roll out drawers if I liked the layout.

Welcome to the island; Survivors, the remodel :rolleyes:

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=24819

[tulip]

Trek and Irulan also have lots of good experience and advice.

[Trek420]

Experience I've got. Advice? I dunno.

I can tell you all the things that can go wrong :rolleyes: BTDTGTTTshirt. :o

[sempronialou]

We had our kitchen redone by Home Depot. They took of everything, but we did the demolition and drywall ourselves. They had contractors come in to drywall the doorways (something we couldn't do ourselves), put in the cabinets, lay down the tile, and install the granite and sink. We had friends do the plumbing and electrical who are professionals. It went very smoothly. The cabinets we got are pretty solid. You have so many choices you can go through and samples as well. The cabinets we got are a lifetime guarantee. A few weeks ago I made a stupid mistake and ended up with a crack in one of the cabinet doors (don't ask). I had found out that the cabinet brand was discontinued a few years ago when I went to Home Depot, but Kraftmaid was the last company that became the carrier. I called up Kraftmaid and they were able to find the old invoice on file and send my a new door a week later. I was very impressed with Kraftmaid's customer service.

Your other option would be too look at local kitchen/bath shops to see what they have. Usually they give you a choice of contractors to work with. There might even be someone local who does custom cabinets that are solid. My parents went that route several years ago, and the kitchen still looks great and the cabinets are in wonderful shape.

You could always save the old cabinets and sell them on craigslist or donate them to something like habitat for humanity rather than throwing them in a land fill. We ended up using our old cabinets in the basement for extra storage (they are hideous, but work well for storage).

[Crankin]

We used a one stop independently owned kitchen and bath design/remodel shop. They took care of everything. Joe, our designer, served as our general contractor. We told him what we wanted and our budget. He drew up plans, made recommendations for fixtures, cabinets, etc, and then we went to the shop and looked through waaaay too many books and samples for my taste. My advice is get the best quality cabinets you can afford. My problem is that I like nice things, but have no patience for looking and choosing and I have little knowledge about this kind of stuff. It kind of annoys me. This is my fifth house and the first one I have been actively involved in, as far as picking out anything, except for the furniture. I made a huge mistake when we were presented the plans for our master bath remodel, which was a total gut and renovation; I really don't "get" something when I see it on a plan, so I gave a quick yes, and it was only when it was done that I realized that we had a (very nice) maple cabinet right in the middle of our sinks, sort of dividing my side from DH's almost all the way to the edge of the counter. Oh well. I am used to it now, but when I first saw it, I was upset. The kitchen, on the other hand and the powder room are perfect. But, our contractor was perfect and each job took 6 weeks or less to do. They hired and supervised all of the different workers, such as electricians, plumbers, tile guy. I would never want to be in charge of this myself. DH is very knowledgeable, but couldn't be home all of the time. He did the other 2 bathrooms by himself, learning what he didn't know from the people at Home Depot. But, our contractors also gave him some advice, as he was working at the same time they were.

[jessmarimba]

The mold smell could possibly be coming from under the cabinet or even under the condo if your plumbing runs into the crawl space there.

I'd try to keep the cabinets, if it was me (at least, if you can figure out the moldy mildewy smell)! I don't think new ones would add as much resell value as they will cost you.

[Irulan]

Trek and Irulan also have lots of good experience and advice.

-mold can be stopped, but it's very hard to clean and more importantly WHERE is it coming form and WHY is it there... that needs to be fixed. In some cases mold is considered toxic and an environmental hazard.

I haven't done kitchens.. but you said one thing that got my attention:


- It makes no sense to replace the counters unless I am sure I will keep the existing cabinet frames for a long time.

What is "a long time"? A counter is a relatively easy project, typically it just bolts on and off. You can get very good looking replacements with formica style covering, stock or custom at Lowe's etc.

I will underscore what others have said about older solid hardwood cabinet frames. They just don't make them like that any more, unless you hire a cabinet maker and specific hardwood. I'd go with new doors and drawer fronts, and resurfacing to match. When we do ours, that is what we'll do.

[jessmarimba]

I also wanted to add - if the smell is from the cabinet base under the sink, you can probably replace just the bottom piece of wood.

Whoever "upgraded" my kitchen to pressed wood cabinets is tormenting me until I can re-do my own kitchen. Stinkin' flippers...while the old look may have been dated, I would've preferred whatever funky cabinets were there to the contractor's special I have now. Paint won't even stick to the veneer.

I will say, the Habitat for Humanities ReStore has done wonders for this house. If you ditch your old cabinets, please donate them so someone like me can use them :)

[snapdragen]

I didn't re-do a kitchen, but I did my bathroom. I bought new doors and drawer fronts from Home Depot, painted them and the vanity white. It looks good, and is a huge improvement over what was there. They have different levels of wood quality for the doors/drawer fronts, depending on if you want to paint or stain them.

[Dogmama]

I painted my cabinets several times. "Several" because the paint did not hold up. It became worn behind the knobs so that the original finish showed. They became irreparably stained from hot food spills and clean ups (anything that cleans well will also remove finish after awhile.) I don't have kids, so they weren't exposed to overuse. If you're going to paint, make sure you have a small can of the color handy to do touch ups a couple times/year, especially if you're going from wood to a light color.

NB - I did an expert job each time, removing existing finish with hand tools & chemicals, primed, used the BEST paint every time that was made for heavy use. If you live in as condo, this will be an additional pain. I had a garage to stage the work, so I could lay out the doors to work on them & let them dry.

Hate to be a wet blanket, but it just didn't work too well. If you want a quick picker-upper for a couple of years before you can afford Tulip's bamboo cabinets, it could be an answer. But I would not do it again.

I will be remodeling soon & plan to use a local store. It will be more $$$, but shoddy workmanship makes me nuts.

[withm]

Actually, install the new cabinets before the floor, unless it is a subfloor we are talking about. No need to put new flooring under cabinets, and putting in floors before cabinets just means you have to worry about damaging floors while putting in cabinets.

Sure - if you want to economize. If you are guaranteed that the new cabinets will be exactly the same size as the old you might be able to get away with this. But there are some things to consider first - height difference of the 2 floors, matching up the cabinets with the old cabinet line. Location of heat ducts - do you have/want heat registers in the toe kicks? Height of the toe kicks.

But the biggest issue is the mold - likely caused by a leak sometime in the last 40 years. The sub floor under the existing cabinets is probably compromised. When you remove the vinyl or whatever the current finish floor is you may find rotted areas, mold, and very inviting area for termites. You need to fix the root problem before you apply cosmetic solutions.

You really don't want to have extra seams for future spills to seep into an already rotting subfloor. Knock a glass of water off new countertop, it spills onto floor, water runs to nearest seam and penetrates the subfloor. You can not clean that up. And say it was coffee with cream and sugar, or a soft drink. Now you are continuing to create a lovely environment for mold, mildew, rot, and bugs.

Maybe your floor isn't rotten - but then where is the odor coming from? Is your crawlspace properly sealed and insulated from the 1st floor of your house? If it were me, I'd be pulling the old floor under the cabinets.

Whether you salvage your existing cabinets or not is up to you - we've not seen them and can not attest to their condition, if they are standard sizes, or even if they are level and square. Nor do we know if they fit in your vision for the new kitchen - for example, if you are looking for a modern, urban, or Euro style they are probably not going to contribute much to that design.

Remodeling a kitchen is not as easy as some might think.

[Trek420]

When all this is done, I'm planning to have white cabinets, blue walls (paint color will be C283 Banff from C2), white subway tiles for the backsplash, black counters with little sparkly bits of recycled glass (Starlight from Eco by Cosentino) and marmoleum floors (dove gray).
Thanks!!!

Pictures, we need to see pictures of the before so we can really back seat drive. This is even better than helping people bike shop, all the fun, none of the dust and total disruption of your life and YOUR money :)

[ny biker]

Am moving this discussion here:

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=24819

Thanks to everyone for your replies!!