Car shopping soon...advice?

[Jolt]

I was most definitely NOT planning on doing any car shopping any time soon, but now I am forced into it. I had an accident this weekend (slid on black ice on the highway, spun out, and hit the guardrail with the rear end of my car...fortunately no injuries) and the insurance company has informed me that the car is totaled. So, I will be getting a check for the value of the car (2005 Toyota Corolla) and looking at used cars. I'm not in a huge rush because fortunately I have the use of my family's "extra" car until I find something, so I don't have to have a rental. One option would be to look for another Corolla of similar age and mileage, and it is an option I am definitely considering because I really liked that car. However, I feel like I should at least look at some other things as well. I am currently looking for a permanent job as a nurse practitionerr, and my state doesn't seem too interested in new grad NPs (at least in acute care) so I will most likely be relocating in the not too distant future. Current possibilities in the works (for interviews in January) are in Maine and Minnesota--lots of snow, and I can't let weather stop me from getting to work. That makes me think it might be a good idea to look at all-wheel drive options like a Subaru. What are everyone else's thoughts? Does AWD make a huge difference over regular FWD for driving in the snow? Also, if I do get another Corolla or something similar I would look at getting snow tires for the winter (that's what I was thinking of doing with my car if I did get a job in a place with more snow than here)...how much do they improve a car's winter handling?

[SadieKate]

Hubby and I both love having real studless snow tires. They make a HUGE difference on ice and are safer on dry pavement than studded tires. You can easily spot the folks around here that don't use winter tires (even before they slide out).

A couple winters ago I was nearly pushed off the highway by a #$%^ pick-up driver while driving a heavily packed Trooper and towing a heavy trailer. The Michelin Ice-X tires maintained traction in some nasty deep snow and ice in spite of some fast maneuvering of a tall, heavy vehicle and wagging trailer -- and an inexperienced ice and trailer driver (moi). My regular mud/snow tires would have just let us slide right on off. I do not want to repeat the experience!

I've now got Bridgestone Blizzaks on my current Suby and love them also.

PS - TireRack's prices are awesome and they have a great tool for picking tires.

[TsPoet]

Once you go MINI you never go back, and MINI's have front wheel drive. I get 30-36 mpg in my Clubbie (it's sensitive to weather and driving conditions, I think because it's so small/light).

[Crankin]

Hi Jolt,
I think you know that I learned to drive in the snow at age 37. Probably one of the most frightening things I've ever had to do. So, to answer your question, yes, AWD makes a huge difference, and so do real snow tires. Since you've been to my house, you probably can tell I could not get up my street or my driveway without AWD for a good part of the winter. My first 2 AWD cars were big, a mini van and a 4 Runner. But now I have small sedan and it's just as good. About 10 years ago, my DH was driving the 4 Runner in a blizzard, on a local road. We slid off the road, strictly because of the crappy "all weather" tires. So, I got real snow tires the next day. What a difference.
So AWD helps you with traction and stability, and so do the tires. While AWD is not what I humorously call all wheel stop, it helps you avoid situations where you might have to stop quickly and put yourself in a precarious situation. It might not have helped in your black ice situation (to me the scariest thing of all), but I had many horrific drives home in blizzards on 495, in the mid nineties, where my commute was either 40 miles or 20 miles and I did it with confidence because of the car I was driving with AWD.

[OakLeaf]

Tires make an enormous difference, but the car has to know what to do with the traction. We've had FWD and AWD vehicles on our hill, and the Subarus win, hands down. If a FWD vehicle gets up the hill in the snow at all, it's really scary.

[Mr. Bloom]

For what you want/need, go with Oakleaf's advice and get a Suburu. If it was a "full line" manufacturer, it would be the biggest selling brand in America.

[eofelis]

+1 on the Subaru. I'm on my third one, a 2001 Outback. It's great out here in Colorado. I'm originally from Massachusetts, where I got my first Subie, a 1991 Legacy wagon.

[zoom-zoom]

I've never had AWD/4WD, but I do have Blizzaks on my '06 Mazda 3. AWESOME. I also drive stick, so I have a good deal more control of wheel torque than I would with an automagic transmission. I have a tough time getting the ABS to even kick-in. I live in an area with an annual average snowfall of approaching 100 inches (West MI).

I've never felt the need for AWD. It's more expensive to maintain (more stuff to go wrong) and makes for a heavier vehicle, ie less fuel efficient. My brother has a Subaru and has had numerous accidents, even though he lives in an area that gets, at most, half the snow of my area (and he's in the city, so they actually plow the roads he drives). He drives like a moron. I don't have AWD and haven't had a weather-related accident since I was 17 (20 years ago). I'm a better driver than my brother (which he will openly admit, heh).

[Blueberry]

If you have a car you can use for a while, why not wait and see if you'll actually need AWD? I didn't want to take the gas mileage hit of AWD, and am very happy with the new family car - a Jetta Sportwagen TDI. It approaches 40 mpg in mixed driving. But - I don't live somewhere it snows a lot. I looked at Subies too, and the best I was seeing was in the 25 mpg range (and the reviews I read indicated that was a stretch).

[jessmarimba]

I don't have a Subaru, but they seem to be indestructible. I think we have at least 100 posted a day on Craigslist in Denver, and I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I wasn't obsessed with eventually buying a Honda Element.

[Blueberry]

I traded my Element for the Jetta. It got terrible gas mileage, had no useful load capacity, handled poorly in slick conditions, and is being discontinued...

[snapdragen]

I don't have a Subaru, but they seem to be indestructible. I think we have at least 100 posted a day on Craigslist in Denver, and I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I wasn't obsessed with eventually buying a Honda Element.

Honda is discontinuing the Element (http://www.examiner.com/car-buying-in-st-louis/eliminating-the-honda-element-here-is-where-you-can-still-get-yours)-- get it while you can. Too bad, I think they're pretty cool.

[jobob]

Honda is discontinuing the Element (http://www.examiner.com/car-buying-in-st-louis/eliminating-the-honda-element-here-is-where-you-can-still-get-yours)-- get it while you can. Too bad, I think they're pretty cool.

As do the Bobs. :cool:
We're very very happy with ours, but then, I suppose we're totally misguided ...

[jessmarimba]

I think it'd be better than a Civic coupe out here! But I bought the Civic for Richmond driving, not Denver.

Along those lines, Jolt, snow tires are a great option, but definitely think ahead of where you might take the car, and what you like to drive to do. Even exploring here in the summer I've ended up on some dirt roads that I didn't like taking my car down, while in VA I did so much driving up and down I-95 that AWD would've been a stupid waste of gas. (Not that my Civic gets great gas mileage for it's size, either - maybe 25 mpg/30 highway)

[Chicken Little]

I would suggest that, in order of importance for your future driving state: 1. front wheel drive 2. Posi-traction 3. Ground clearance 4. MPG. This goes without saying such things as good tires, ABS, airbags.

I maintain, and some will disagree, that the best ice and snow safety measure is your own ability to drive your vehicle. I spent many winters on the East coast, in a rear wheel drive Toyota pickup with a 4 speed transmission and a snow chain on one rear tire. As a poor student, I passed many a fat white guy in a Range Rover with spinning tires.

I'm just sayin'

[Blueberry]

I should clarify - the Honda dealer told us that we were seriously exceeding the useful capacity with 2 kayaks on the roof, 2 bikes on the back, and 2 people and a dog. We verified that the carrying capacity in fact was low enough that we were pushing it. It just couldn't handle what we needed it to (and it wasn't worth that much of a mileage hit for it not to do what we needed it to....). I did love it for a while;)

[jessmarimba]

Ah, ok. As a "just me" car it seems about the most useful yet smallest available. If I get to the point where I + someone need more space, SO has a Durango. Thanks for the info!

Sorry to hijack!

[Koronin]

I grew up in Ohio and actually at 16 took my driver's ed course in the middle of winter, so I learned how to drive in the snow before I learned to drive on good weather roads. I have never drive an AWD and when I lived in Ohio only ever drove front wheel drive vehicles. The only time I had a problem was with black ice and an AWD or a 4X4 isn't going to help with black ice. I agree that it's your ability to drive the vehicle not rather it's front, read, AWD or 4X4 that makes as big of a difference. Personally I'd go for a 4X4 long before I'd get an AWD, but that's just me. I've lived in NC for the past 10 years and there is most definitely something to be said for knowing how to drive in snow vs type of vehicle you have, as I've seen so many people wreck or be off to the side of the road is very little snow and people asking about chains for tires and snow tires at just the mere threat of snow down here (not talking about the mountians though). Also for most snow a good all weather tire should be fine, but yes there are some places that you would need a good snow tire. Oh and make sure you buy the right tire for the vehicle regardless of what you choose to buy as that can make a big difference in bad weather. I have a Monte Carlo SS and the Bridgestone tires I have on it now are about 1000 X's better than the GoodYear's the car came with. Both the correct tire for the vehicle in each manufacture's line, but a huge difference in driveability in bad weather and actually the Bridgestone also preform better in good weather.

[Mr. Bloom]

I should clarify - the Honda dealer told us that we were seriously exceeding the useful capacity with 2 kayaks on the roof, 2 bikes on the back, and 2 people and a dog. We verified that the carrying capacity in fact was low enough that we were pushing it. It just couldn't handle what we needed it to (and it wasn't worth that much of a mileage hit for it not to do what we needed it to....). I did love it for a while;)

So, was the dealer suggesting you should leave one of the humans or the dog?;)

[zoom-zoom]

there is most definitely something to be said for knowing how to drive in snow vs type of vehicle you have, as I've seen so many people wreck or be off to the side of the road is very little snow

I can honestly say that MOST of the vehicles we see in the ditch here are AWD/4x4 equipped. There is a false sense of security that = driving too fast for conditions for some people (AWD/4WD does not allow one to stop faster...since those vehicles are heavier they actually require more distance to stop, not less). For those of us who drive appropriately for the road conditions, we will get where we need to go by driving smart and adapting to wheel slip properly (I don't like traction control because it kicks in AFTER I have already taken my foot off the gas and changed gears. It's too-little-too-late and actually makes it more difficult for me to keep my car from sliding).

[Crankin]

Well, yes, you see those people in ditches because they drive like azzholes. Just because you have AWD or 4 WD doesn't give you the ability to 80 mph in a blizzard.
I am surprised at the vehemence against AWD. My car is 8 years old and I have never had to do any more maintenance than whatever is routine. I guess my mpg is a bit less than the rear wheel drive version of my car, but I gladly put up with that by driving less and riding my bike. My car also has some special hill descending features, that I switch on when my driveway is full of ice... it allows you to take your foot off of the gas and the car actually controls the speed/braking without you doing anything but steering.
My first drive in real snow was in a stick shift front wheel drive car. I had to descend a huge hill, with my 6 year old in the back seat. I fish tailed all way down, skidded, and then had to drive up my street (another huge hill, not the one I live on now). My car just kept sliding backwards, into a main street. I actually let a strange man get in the car and drive me up the street, as this was before cell phones. This was pretty traumatizing to me; I went out and got my first 4 WD car by the end of the week. Maybe I'm not as tough as some of you guys, because when it's really bad out, I don't go anywhere.

[zoom-zoom]

Maybe I'm not as tough as some of you guys, because when it's really bad out, I don't go anywhere.

This is key. And part of the issue when *some* people drive AWD/4WD vehicles. They are willing to go out in conditions that really aren't safe for any vehicle and take unnecessary risks. I've seen people I know and love do this. They get it in their head that their vehicles are invincible and that they are safe to drive faster and go out in crappier conditions than those with only FWD, simply because they have these systems. They are still ignoring the fact that they can't stop faster, so if/when they do go into a skid they are screwed.

[OakLeaf]

I don't claim to be an excellent driver in bad conditions, but my DH definitely is, and he's all for the AWD.

It's obviously true that there are people who will look at any safety measure (helmets ...) as an excuse to drive or ride stupid. That doesn't mean that the feature won't make you safer if you drive/ride the same way you do without it. And I'm not even primarily talking about safety ... way before that, just the ability to get from point A to point B with your car pointing forward the whole time and not having to abandon it in the middle of your lane because it just. won't. climb the hill (btdt).

AWD just means that your engine's torque is distributed among four wheels instead of two, so the amount of torque being applied to change your vehicle's velocity is halved at any wheel, and the amount of traction available to distribute that torque over the road is doubled.

When it looked like we were going to have to stay here for the winter, the first thing DH suggested was trading the Prius for another Subaru. It's true the reason we didn't get a third 'Ru was the fuel mileage. We got 25 mpg overall, in mostly hilly rural driving which is pretty much the worst fuel consumer there is (accelerate to 60, drive two miles, stop at a stop sign or stop light, repeat). But when you can't even take the vehicle out because of the conditions ... sure you're saving fuel, but it's not doing you much good.


ETA: in our eight years of two 'Rus, we never had any unusual issues, and in fact my sister is still driving our first one. It passed 150,000 miles a couple of years ago IIRC.

[limewave]

I live in MI and we get some nasty winters along the lakeshore. I've had FWD and AWD. I will never, ever, ever go back to FWD. I have a buick rendezvous and it handles really well in the snow and ice. I don't miss the days of white-knuckle, heart-stopping driving in the winter. Before I got an AWD, I had to park across the street from our house in the winter. My FWD couldn't make it up the little bump at the front of the drive if it was snowy.

I've test-driven the subaru as my Buick is getting way up there in mileage. We'll probably need a new car in about 2 years. (I know its early for shopping, but I like to know what I want when I need to get it). And I really like how the Subaru handled and the space it had. It's a little smaller than my Buick, but it's lower to the ground so I can put roof racks on it for the bikes. It also handles really well in the snow and if you ever have to drive along the beach for a few miles, it does well on the sand to :)

[Becky]

DH and I are on our 3rd and 4th Subarus, an 2008 Outback and a 1996 Legacy. Once you buy one, it's hard (IMO) to buy anything else. The AWD really does make a difference, it has a decent amount of cargo space but it's still low enough for short me to rack bikes on the roof, and it's holding its value very well.

As for mileage, I routinely get 29-30 mph on long trips as long as there are no bikes on the roof and I'm being conscious about mileage. Around town, I manage 24-26 mph, which is still quite a bit better than its EPA rating. Driving stick and being aware of starts and stops both help. Could it be better without AWD? Sure. Am I going to give it up? Nope :)

Edit: Did I mention their awesome life spans? #1 ate it in a car accident at 205K miles, #2 made it to 180K before I donated it, and #3 is still kicking at ~150K.

[Jolt]

Some good thoughts here from different points of view. Gas mileage would definitely be a disadvantage if I went with AWD, as is the fact that an AWD vehicle would be more expensive so I would probably end up with something older/higher mileage than if I went with, say, another Corolla. I do agree with those who said the most important thing is knowing how to drive in the snow and not doing anything stupid like going too fast, and that sometimes it's best just to stay home (believe me, that's what I do if I know it's going to be really bad and I don't HAVE to go somewhere...in the situation this weekend the road conditions were a lot worse than I expected them to be and if I had known they would be that bad I would not have gone out). On the other hand, the times I had to drive in the snow with the Corolla (granted, no snow tires) it was nerve-racking sometimes because it was hard to get up hills from a stop (which is a problem here in central MA given how hilly the area is and all the stoplights on some of the roads) and seemed to slide around easily even with slowing way down and braking/steering gently. Never had a really bad skid in snow, just felt like the car did not have a good grip on the road and it wouldn't take much to get into trouble. That was the only thing I didn't like about that car. With snow tires it would probably be a lot better (I'm sure neither snow tires nor AWD would have helped much in my black ice situation...black ice is just bad news no matter what and is completely different from snow). I really wish I knew for sure where I will be relocating...that might make the decision easier. I know I definitely want another compact car, just need to figure out which one.

[jessmarimba]

My old Corolla was blown off the road once in bad snow. It sucked.

Just a suggestion - I've heard great things about the Suzuki Sx4 from the few people who have them. Smaller, better mileage than most AWD, and pretty affordable.

(I'm always on the lookout here for the old Civic AWDs, from the 80s/early 90s. I'd buy one just as a "snow car.")

[tulip]

jessmarimba, when were you in Richmond? Fortunately, I rarely have to go on I-95, although today will be an exception. A Civic would be fine here, but I've never been to Colorado so I only imagine that it's all snow all the time.

Blueberry, I'm glad you like your Jetta TDI. I have a 5-speed manual transmission Rabbit that I love, but not TDI. VW had stopped making TDI Golf/Rabbit when I bought my car, although I looked in vain for a used one. If I ever get to the point of being able to buy a new car, my first choice will be a TDI Golf or Jetta. Great mileage, very well-made, all the safety features are standard (as are extras like heated seats!), and fun to drive.

I agree with everyone that the ability to drive in snow and ice is key. I never learned and have no reason to since I live in the south and when it snows, I just stay home (happily).

Good luck in your search, Jolt. If you don't need to buy a car since you can use the extra one, why not wait until you know where you will be and then decide? No sense in spending money until you have to, I say.

[Roadtrip]

I can't add to the technical merits, but I would add that if you are interested in the AWD and can indeed wait... you might get a better deal in the spring on the AWD as there would be less people in the market for AWD and 4x4 cars and trucks outside of the winter season. If you're considering the FWD then you might find a better deal now, when there is an ample supply, ones dealers want to sell.

Shannon

[Irulan]

Here's my two cents. I've lived in Chicago, Wyoming, Colorado and have been in Washington state for 20 years. I've done it all 4x4, AWD, FWD, studs, studless...I have had toyota 4x4 trucks, jetta and toyota FWD, subaru, SUVs. Our current vehicles are a FWD Mazda 3 and a Toyota 4 Runner, both with a set of winter wheels with Blizzaks on them.

+1 to driving skills in the snow. The biggest one is slow the F down and the people some space.

4x4, yeah sure it's great and we use ours all the time. We have weekly ski trips and ski patrol duty when we HAVE to be on the mountain an hour before opening. Where 4x4 really rules is in deep snow.On ice they are no better than anything else; ice comes down to your tires and speed. We have the crappiest plowing in the nation, and there have been weeks when 10 days after a 20" dump we still haven't gotten plowed, IN TOWN. and a high clearance vehicleis the only way to get out onto the arterial. I think for your average driver who understands how to drive in the snow it's nice but not necessary. +1 to the false sense of security that some drivers have. I do love our 4 runner in deep snow though...

FWD with snow tires on all four wheels is just fine. The newer vehicles also have traction control which is a nice features. My mazda had an AWD option, but since I was interested in mileage, I did not get it. With good snow tires, (Blizzaks rules) it's terrific, even for ski trips with 6" of snow on the road. I had a Jetta for years, in Wyoming, with winter tires and it was great, had better stick-to-the- roadness than our Toyota 4x4 truck.

Subarus. Solid, very reliable, great snow cars.. However, they have the most uncomfortable seats in the world, and not the greatest mileage. They are getting bigger every year which I find to be hugely disappointing.

Snow tires. The new technology for studless tires made of super sticky winter rubber is amazing. The blizzaks we run on all cars are amazing; we'll never go back to studs. "All-weather" is NOT the same. Good winter tires are a worthwhile investment even though the first purchase will make you choke.

Other comments:
Traction control... many of the the newer vehicles have it and it's a nice feature.
Heated seats. IMSHO, mandatory in winter. :D
Side mirror defrosters. Really nice
Block heater, if you get deep cold, you need this.
Winter safety kit in the back of the car, needed

Underscore to learning how to drive in the snow. The best car won't save you if you don't understand the physics of snow driving.

Second underscore, some conditions you just shouldn't go out in unless it's an true emergency ( like taking someone to the ER)

[Irulan]

Here's conditions that you really shouldn't go out in. Plus, not having snow tires or skills....

(Portland OR)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMzeiMJQrvk

[SadieKate]

Irulan's post summed all everything very well and as others said, skills and common sense are the number 1 issue but technology can provide such additional safety it should be used when possible.

My only issue is all the comments about Suby gas mileage. Yes, the older ones might having been lacking in this dept but I have a 2010 Outback with the revised automatic Lineartronic™ CVT 4-cylinder Boxer engine. In September we drove about 2,000 miles on a trip with long and short distance hops. The car was loaded to the max with a wide cargo box and we ran the air conditioning most of the time (on max whenever we were on dirt roads). Just as we arrived back at home, the average mpg dropped below 31. If I go through a full tank doing nothing but super short errands I'll still see 23 mpg.

For a tall heavy car with AWD that takes me skiing, fishing, hunting, and exploring on dirt roads (sometimes aptly named Nasty Flat Rd), I'll take it. It's better than my hubby's smaller Audi A4 wagon got. Yeah, it doesn't get 40 mpg, but, frankly, those cars wouldn't be the right tool for the jobs required by my lifestyle anyway. Like Irulan, I need ground clearance just to get out of my driveway at times (Plow? What's a plow?).

We're also on our 6th car with AWD (4 Subies, 1 Audi, 1 Mazda) and have never, ever, ever, had any additional cost with maintaining AWD. It only adds weight which will show in the mileage and potential tire wear but all cars need tire alignment maintenance anyway.

[SadieKate]

Snow tires. The new technology for studless tires made of super sticky winter rubber is amazing. The blizzaks we run on all cars are amazing; we'll never go back to studs. "All-weather" is NOT the same. Good winter tires are a worthwhile investment even though the first purchase will make you choke.Amen.

I am sooo past ready for studs to be outlawed.

Not only the road damage but damage to our cars from flying studs off other cars.

[Jolt]

SadieKate--

LOL about Nasty Flat Road!! As far as the gas mileage you get with your Subaru, that's not too bad, and I'd be looking at the Impreza which probably gets a couple more mpg being smaller. That Suzuki SX4 somebody mentioned looks like another good thing to check out.

Does anyone know anything about the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe? I know they were based on the Corolla but had an AWD option.

[jessmarimba]

Tulip - born and raised! Lived there til '02 and again from '06-'09. I go back about once a month since I left my SO there and my company's headquarters are in Innsbrook. I just work out of that office.

Jolt - good luck, I think we've inundated you with info! I'm holding off on getting a different car for now but I'll try and remember to pull this thread up next year when it's my turn.

[SadieKate]

SadieKate--

LOL about Nasty Flat Road!! As far as the gas mileage you get with your Subaru, that's not too bad, and I'd be looking at the Impreza which probably gets a couple more mpg being smaller. That Suzuki SX4 somebody mentioned looks like another good thing to check out. If I had decided to go with a smaller car, I'd be all over the Impreza.

[Irulan]

.

Does anyone know anything about the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe? I know they were based on the Corolla but had an AWD option.

I looked very closely at the Matrix. In fact I ran a spread sheet comparing the Mazda 3 and the Matrix, which both come with an AWD option.

I decided on the Mazda3 FWD with traction control. Here's why:

The Mazda offers much more bang for the buck. At the time I was looking the Matrix's trim level was more or less utilitarian and I wanted nicer trim. I chose the Mazda3 GT package, full leather, rain sensor wipers, iPod hook up, five speed, sunroof, upgrade stereo, heated seats, traction control etc and it was still less than the top Matrix package. Plus, the Toyota dealer was really arrogant: I don't have to deal with you, too many people want this car.:rolleyes: This was before the economy tanked of course. I opted out of AWD mainly for mileage reasons since we also have a 4X4

Arrogant Toyota salesman or the Mazda guy who actually brought the to me at my house to test drive....that will certainly weight a sale don't you think? Plus I really wanted heated seats....

[Jolt]

Does anyone know anything about the Suzuki Aerio? I believe that's what the SX4 replaced...was just looking at used cars and the Aerios are the ones that will be in my price range. They have the AWD option which is why I am looking at them.

[zoom-zoom]

Snow tires. The new technology for studless tires made of super sticky winter rubber is amazing. The blizzaks we run on all cars are amazing; we'll never go back to studs. "All-weather" is NOT the same. Good winter tires are a worthwhile investment even though the first purchase will make you choke.

My Mazda 3 is, BY FAR the highest HP (by almost 40%), highest torque car I have ever had...but the first car I've ever had with true snow tires for Winter (Blizzaks). It is simply amazing how well it handles in snow. I have on occasion driven AWD (my MIL's Rav 4) with "all-season" tires and traction control and it couldn't begin to compare. "All season" really means all-season-if-you-live-where-it-doesn't-get-below-freezing.

[Irulan]

My Mazda 3 is, BY FAR the highest HP (by almost 40%), highest torque car I have ever had...but the first car I've ever had with true snow tires for Winter (Blizzaks). It is simply amazing how well it handles in snow. I have on occasion driven AWD (my MIL's Rav 4) with "all-season" tires and traction control and it couldn't begin to compare. "All season" really means all-season-if-you-live-where-it-doesn't-get-below-freezing.


the only time I run into trouble is if the snow is so deep that I am highsiding in it -

[zoom-zoom]

the only time I run into trouble is if the snow is so deep that I am highsiding in it -

Ha, a Winter or two ago we had heavy snow when we were an hour away for a holiday party (inland where they don't get near the lake-effect mess that we do). On the way home the snow on the interstate was deep and sorta like concrete. My car was essentially pushing the snow along...but I still had good traction. That was one of the few times where I wish my car had a couple of inches more clearance.

[OakLeaf]

The Prius wouldn't climb my hill this afternoon.

We'd been out just once before since the snowfall - just enough to compact the snow a little. Too cold for ice. Our hill is steep, but not THAT steep - around 15%.

I couldn't make a hard run because there was a stray dog in the lane. I got halfway up and the wheels started spinning. The little traction control icon on the dashboard was cute. :rolleyes: Got my husband to shoo the dog away, backed down to the bottom of the hill, got a good run, tried again ... wheels started spinning halfway up.

My husband tried (he of the excellent slick surface driving skills). No joy. He tried pushing while I drove. No joy. I dug up an old sand pile and put some under the front wheels. They still spun. Finally I put a good amount of sand over about a 20-foot length of the wheel tracks, he backed down the hill and got another good run, finally made it up.

If we were staying here much longer, we'd get another Subaru.

[GLC1968]

Does anyone know anything about the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe? I know they were based on the Corolla but had an AWD option.

We have a 2005 Matrix but opted against the AWD because we lived in NC at the time we bought it. Honestly, we also looked at the Vibe but it felt 'cheap' to us and we kind of felt the same way about the Mazda. Again, this was in 2005, so I have no idea what either of those cars are like now. I like a solid feeling car and I'm not one for extras. I'm of the belief that the more features your car has, the more things that can break. This, of course, coming from someone who was happily driving a Jeep CJ-7 as my first car and never balked at having to get out of the car to lock the hubs in order to run 4 wheel drive. ;)

About my history - I have lived all over this county in all types of conditions. When I learned to drive, it was in the snow before there was front wheel drive. I've owned 4WD, AWD, FrontWD and rearWD cars and driven all of them in the snow and ice. First of all, not all FWD is created equal. And AWD isn't going to help you if it doesn't have the necessary clearance. Thirdly, a reasonably heavy front wheel drive car might be all you'll ever need unless you move to the mountains or the country where plowing is sporatic at best. Even then, chains rock.

So, our Matrix is easily one of the best cars I've ever owned (and I've owned a lot). Ours now has 108K miles on it and it runs wonderfully. When we moved out here, I laughed at the local panic when snow was in the forecast. The first winter we lived here, we got blasted - storm after storm with freeze, melt, freeze for about a week. When there are not enough plows to go around, it creates a disaster area. Think 8" frozen solid ice ruts in the road! Add a bunch of people who have no idea how to drive in winter conditions and plenty of steep hills you get a real mess. I put chains on our Matrix (something I'd never needed in previous places I'd lived including Maine, Wisconsin, Michigan, Massachusetts, and the Pocono mountains). I was so incredibly impressed with how the Matrix handled the conditions with those chains on it. It was amazing! The best part was that when the snow was gone, the chains came off and I got my good mileage back.

I did drive a 2010 Matrix while ours was in for routine maintneance and it sucked. Visibilty was poor, the inside felt 'plasticky', and handling was lousy. If you do still consider a Matrix, opt for an older one. The new ones are lacking in my opinion.

That said, I am eyeing the new Outbacks. We have absolutely no need for a new car at all, but when we are ready, we may consider one. I'm also disappointed in the MPG ratings, but perhaps by then, they'll have improved them even further.

[emily_in_nc]

Just to post a contrarian opinion on the much-beloved Subaru. I had a 2001 Forester I bought new. My first Sube, and I guess I just got unlucky since so many here have had much better experiences. It was great until three years old; then I had repeated problems with the Check Engine light that resulted in multiple and costly repairs. At age 4, the transmission started going out, and since Subaru will only replace, not repair, transmissions, that was going to be a VERY costly repair. At the time I was going through all this, my eyes were opened wide when I googled "Subaru Check Engine light" and "Subaru transmission problems". I was NOT alone. So, the car was only four years old, though I did drive it a lot of miles - had 80K on it. Only got $7K for it b/c of the transmission problem when I traded it in.

I traded it in in 2004 on a Honda Element and have never had a minute's trouble with this vehicle. Sitting at 124K miles now. Gas mileage is very similar to the Forester (both AWD), and with the back seats removed, it carries a LOT more cargo (four bikes, or two bikes, luggage, and a dog crate), or a huge load to Goodwill or the dump. Was sorry to read that it is being discontinued.

[Crankin]

I also had a horrible experience with a Subaru. Granted, it was a long time ago, but I had problem after mechanical problem. I had the car for 15 months, traded it for a Volvo station wagon, which I had for almost 10 years.

[Jolt]

About my history - I have lived all over this county in all types of conditions. When I learned to drive, it was in the snow before there was front wheel drive. I've owned 4WD, AWD, FrontWD and rearWD cars and driven all of them in the snow and ice. First of all, not all FWD is created equal. And AWD isn't going to help you if it doesn't have the necessary clearance. Thirdly, a reasonably heavy front wheel drive car might be all you'll ever need unless you move to the mountains or the country where plowing is sporatic at best. Even then, chains rock.


I did drive a 2010 Matrix while ours was in for routine maintneance and it sucked. Visibilty was poor, the inside felt 'plasticky', and handling was lousy. If you do still consider a Matrix, opt for an older one. The new ones are lacking in my opinion.



As far as a reasonably heavy FWD car being good enough, that does make sense. I had a 1992 Chevy Lumina (hand-me-down from my parents) before getting the Corolla, and that car did really well in the snow b/c it was kind of big and heavy. However, I'm not excited about the idea of going back to a car that size--it's awkward in tight spaces and for one person a big car just doesn't make a lot of sense. Thanks for the info on the Matrix; I would be looking at the older ones since those would be the ones in my price range. I wonder if handling on new Toyotas in general isn't very good...I had a rental for the first day after my accident and it was a very new Camry. I did NOT like the feel of that car...didn't even feel connected to the road, which was especially scary given the experience I had just had. Not sure if it was just because it is a bigger car than I am used to or what, but I was not impressed at all!

[Irulan]

I also had a horrible experience with a Subaru. Granted, it was a long time ago, but I had problem after mechanical problem. I had the car for 15 months, traded it for a Volvo station wagon, which I had for almost 10 years.


Every brand has its lemons.:)I am sure there could be a whole multi page thread on the "cars we love to hate" discussion....

[OakLeaf]

Are they offering AWD on the Matrix again? They weren't a few years ago when I was looking at new ones.

My '07 Prius handles very well considering its size. Haven't driven one of the new ones. It's got all the electronic geegaws that really help in rain, gravel, bumpy surfaces, etc. It's just no good on snow or ice.

I'm wondering if visibility isn't an issue in all newer cars, the result of the side curtain air bags? The #1 thing I hate about my Prius is the visibility. The stupid pillars/airbags - especially the left one - completely cover a large portion of the driver's field of vision. I've read that there's no requirement for a car to have a windshield at ALL, let alone how much you can see out of it. Regulations are better for helmets...

[Irulan]

Are they offering AWD on the Matrix again? They weren't a few years ago when I was looking at new ones.

My '07 Prius handles very well considering its size. Haven't driven one of the new ones. It's got all the electronic geegaws that really help in rain, gravel, bumpy surfaces, etc. It's just no good on snow or ice.

I'm wondering if visibility isn't an issue in all newer cars, the result of the side curtain air bags? The #1 thing I hate about my Prius is the visibility. The stupid pillars/airbags - especially the left one - completely cover a large portion of the driver's field of vision. I've read that there's no requirement for a car to have a windshield at ALL, let alone how much you can see out of it. Regulations are better for helmets...


Matrix offered it in 08 when I was looking, don't know about other years.
And yes to the poor visibility. That was one main reason that the Pruis was taken off my list right away. But so many of the cars and suv's have that round back shape now. Good rear visibility was one thing that was really important to me and a lot of cars got off my list right away because of the lack of it. Back up cameras are not a substitute. Oakleaf - you know what backed into me the other day? A Prius!! My car is small enough that yup, it didnt' show up in the Prius rear window when you looked out....

[GLC1968]

Are they offering AWD on the Matrix again? They weren't a few years ago when I was looking at new ones.

My '07 Prius handles very well considering its size. Haven't driven one of the new ones. It's got all the electronic geegaws that really help in rain, gravel, bumpy surfaces, etc. It's just no good on snow or ice.

I'm wondering if visibility isn't an issue in all newer cars, the result of the side curtain air bags? The #1 thing I hate about my Prius is the visibility. The stupid pillars/airbags - especially the left one - completely cover a large portion of the driver's field of vision. I've read that there's no requirement for a car to have a windshield at ALL, let alone how much you can see out of it. Regulations are better for helmets...

Actually, the visibility problem on the new Matrix is due to the change they made in the rear configuration. The new ones have a larger solid part between the rear window and the rear side windows and it sucks. Oh, and the rear window on the new ones don't have a 'hatch' opening glass option like ours does and I love that feature!

The Prius visibilty issue was with the front, more than the back (in my opinion). I hated those HUGE solid areas around the windshield (I don't know the technical name of them!). If they were huge due to the side curtain air bags, then Toyota needs to take a lesson from the MINI design handbook. The MINI has the same airbags and the foward visiblity was much, much better.

Jolt - a car doesn't have to be big to be heavy! My 2004 MINI was surprizingly heavy for it's tiny size and it had fantastic traction! The DSC helped, of course...but even acceleration was good without snow tires. I was really impressed with it, actually. I'm thinking that they may have lightened up the newer models though in order to get better gas mileage. It might be worth investigating as that was a fantastic car for one person (or two). I wish I hadn't traded it in. I really, really regret it.

[OakLeaf]

you know what backed into me the other day? A Prius!!

:D (I think ... you okay and your car repairable??)

I don't have an issue with the rear visibility per se - I can actually see more out of the hatch than I can with most cars, but there's something about it that's different and took a little getting used to. The front visibility, OTOH ... I have to practically stick my head out the window to see around a left hand curve. Passing on a two-lane, forget about it, I can't see whether there's anything in the oncoming lane. :eek:

But that backup camera. I've read where they want to make them mandatory, and I think they should be banned. The camera makes it really tempting to look at the stupid screen and not at where you're going. :mad: I try to ignore the thing. But I think it could easily cause a crash.

I learned a little trick: put the car in reverse, then adjust the temperature, and the camera screen won't come back after the climate screen clears.

[Aquila]

My friends and I up here joke that Subaru is the official car of professional women in the upper midwest. I love mine, though I've managed to slide on occasion despite the AWD. (I'm not the most skilled winter driver.)

But, one of my friends has a tiny Suzuki and it's also a great car, and packs their bikes and kayaks really well, and does fine in snow, too.

[Crankin]

Yea, Subarus are really popular here, too.
Probably the reason I didn't get one.

[Irulan]

Funny Subaru story. Remember when they only came in Lego colors?

Anyway one of my good friends used to have a green wagon ( pre out back) Her DH went to the supermarket, came back to A green wagon, saw a business card for a plastic surgeon on the seat and just freaked out. Then he tried to open the door with the key, wrong car.

[indysteel]

My husband had to drive my car in the snow today and declared afterwards that he's getting me snow tires! Yay! I get really anxious when I have to drive in bad weather. Anything that helps me be and feel safer is a win. It wasn't a big deal when I lived a mile from work. I would just walk when it was bad out. Now that I'm almost 30 miles away, it's a big deal.

[GLC1968]

Funny Subaru story. Remember when they only came in Lego colors?

Anyway one of my good friends used to have a green wagon ( pre out back) Her DH went to the supermarket, came back to A green wagon, saw a business card for a plastic surgeon on the seat and just freaked out. Then he tried to open the door with the key, wrong car.


Heh - I just did this at the gym/pool last week. I came out and walked up to what I thought was my Matrix (ours is the light metallic blue color and there are TONS of them out there in that color). My key fob wasn't working and I was about to put my key in the door when I noticed a child seat in the backseat. Huh? Then I realized I was one row over from where my car was. :o

[zoom-zoom]

Heh - I just did this at the gym/pool last week. I came out and walked up to what I thought was my Matrix (ours is the light metallic blue color and there are TONS of them out there in that color). My key fob wasn't working and I was about to put my key in the door when I noticed a child seat in the backseat. Huh? Then I realized I was one row over from where my car was. :o

Ha, one I used my key fob on my last car and the trunk of a car in the next row opened...different make and model, even!

I've not had any problems walking up to a car like mine. We have the only Mazda 3 hatchback in Copper Red in our entire county, as far as I know. My last car was a Ford Escort, but it was a dark periwinkle sort of color, so not common. I avoid too-common colors for this very reason.

[OakLeaf]

... one of my more embarrassing moments was when I'd rented a car - I don't even remember why, since we were home - I went to the post office and when I came back out, I couldn't get into the car. I might've even called the rental agency. Then I turned around and my identical rental car was behind me. :o

[Jolt]

Surprisingly I only recall one time when I tried to get into the wrong car...red Corollas are everywhere so there were plenty of opportunities for it to happen. Maybe it's because I had a few stuffed animals in the back window that made it easy to pick mine out in the parking lot.

[emily_in_nc]

I came out of REI once and started freaking out b/c someone had hit my Honda Element and left a big scratch on the driver's side door and hadn't left a note or anything. And then my key wouldn't work!

Sheepishly, I then noticed my vehicle parked one row over. :D

[OakLeaf]

We had one of those two-tone green and greenish-gold Outbacks. They sold a LOT of them. Whenever I saw one in a parking lot (which was often), I'd try to park as close to it as I could, just to be contrary. ;)

[Atlas]

I just gave up my 1994 Grand Prix (with 196,000 miles) and have a pretty 2004 Jeep Liberty. I had originally decided I couldn't afford something with 4wd/awd because I wanted low miles and I don't think it's completely necessary. I think if you're on reasonably plowed roads a fwd vehicle with good snow tires can be just as effective as 4wd. I've lived in the midwest all my life and have managed in fwd, though I admit 4wd/awd is nice. We drive to International Falls, MN every year for the Arrowhead 135 and I've always driven a mini van and it has managed every single time.

But like I said, I have a jeep now and even in the few days I've had it I love the 4wd. I don't need it all the time but it'll be nice when we go camping in February. Let me get back to you about gas mileage come summer though :)

Advice, get a car you like and can afford and find a way to make it winter-ready.

[Koronin]

We own a 4X4 pick up (Ford Ranger). We did buy is specifically with 4X4, although not for typically driving. The 4X4 is actually for the two times per year when we go to Bristol, TN for the NASCAR races. With a 4X4 you can find parking much easier than without it. There is alot of parking that awd and 2 wheel driver (front or rear wheel) just cannot park at, so 4X4 is extremely useful. Otherwise, unless we intend on driving on the beach we may never actually use the 4 wheel drive. We may eventually do that to see the wild horses in Currituck County (Outer Banks of NC). But living in NC, and now eastern NC there isn't a whole lot of other reasons to have a 4X4.

[Jolt]

I had my list of three cars to consider after looking at Consumer Reports etc. (Subaru Impreza, Toyota Matrix and Suzuki SX4) and went out today to do some test driving. Only got to drive the first two as there is not a Suzuki dealer close by. Both were very good but I liked the Subaru a little better--visibility to the sides and rear was a lot better and I like the fact that it is designed for all-wheel drive from the ground up as opposed to having it as an add-on feature. The Subaru salesman (who happens to be my roommate's cousin) also took me to a parking lot with some big areas of unplowed snow about 6-8 inches deep, so I could really see how well the car does. It went through that snow (as well as one place where it was piled up higher) with no problem--this is a car that seems like it would make driving after a snowstorm fun instead of scary! Unfortunately I didn't get to do that with the Toyota to compare, mostly just drove that one on the highway (it felt a lot like driving the Corolla except sitting up a little higher and having bigger blind spots). I might end up not testing the Suzuki...although all indications are that it's a good car, it just doesn't have the track record that the others do and I want to make sure I get a car that will be reliable for a long time. Now I just have to see what happens with these interviews I have coming up in the next couple of weeks...hopefully there will be an offer and I can then go ahead with picking out a car (makes more sense to wait since I have a car to use for right now).

[indysteel]

There's a recent thread on Roadbikereview about getting a good deal/how to haggle on an Suburu. While you have to wade through a bit of male banter (typical for RBR), you might find something helpful in the thread about getting a good deal.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=236222