X-ray backscatter security scanners

[KnottedYet]

What floors me about these things is not just that refusing the x-ray AND the pat-down will get you a $11,000 fine; it's that you can't even say "Never mind, I just won't fly, I'm going home." You will STILL get fined $11,000 even if you decide not to travel that day!

The rationale I read in the paper is that allowing people to give up and go home without a fine would encourage terrorists to just call it off if they realized they were going to go through the x-ray.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'm flying next week, and my airport just installed the x-rays. I'm wearing lycra under my clothes and stripping before I go through security. That will speed up the pat-down procedure, and I can show my cancer scars to explain why I'm not going through the x-ray.

[Blueberry]

From what I heard, people have tried stripping. They've made them put their clothes back on, and be subjected to a pat down.

I would hope you wouldn't have to explain why you aren't going through the x-ray. But then again....

[shootingstar]

I've had to do 4 round-trip different airline flights this year...which is highly unusual for me.

All 3 except 1, were domestic flights..distance one way was minimum of 1,500 kms. I realize the x-ray/pat down flights, it doesn't matter the distance.

I flew to Europe and back.

I've had no pat down. Probably the body x-ray instead.

[KnottedYet]

Oh, I'm fine with a pat-down. But wearing a skin tight tank-top and shorts will (I assume) make the whole thing go faster. I don't want to slow anyone else down, I just wanna get through and get to my plane as quickly as possible.

Docs are saying people with a cancer history (especially skin, breast, and testicular) or immune system dysfunction should stay out of the x-ray scanners. I talked to a radiologist on staff today who said the same thing.

I choose to fly. My option is a pat-down. Why not make it as easy as possible on everyone?

[PamNY]

Oh, I'm fine with a pat-down. But wearing a skin tight tank-top and shorts will (I assume) make the whole thing go faster. I don't want to slow anyone else down, I just wanna get through and get to my plane as quickly as possible.

I had thought of doing that, too. I'll be interested to hear how it works. Glad you are avoiding the radiation.

[Becky]

From what I heard, people have tried stripping. They've made them put their clothes back on, and be subjected to a pat down.

I would hope you wouldn't have to explain why you aren't going through the x-ray. But then again....

I heard the same thing.

I was patted down coming to and going from Boston, in September before the scanner stuff started. It wasn't a particularly pleasant experience but, since I always set off metal detectors, I suppose that I should get used to it. However, the worst part was that they wouldn't let me get my bags before taking me aside, leaving all of my valuables and my life-dependent medications out where anyone could have stolen them.

[Koronin]

My sister actually has a medical card that states she cannot go through the X-ray machine and actually could not go through the old machines either. Plus she has a pacemaker in her bladder (reason she can't go through a medal detector thing) and I'm sure the pat down people won't understand that one even though she has medical cards. (She also is bi-polar, has Crohn's disease and a couple other medical issues).

Oh and I've heard that Charlotte Douglas airport is looking into kicking out TSA. They haven't done it yet and they are trying to determine if they should go with a private company OR go with their regular security police force as they feel either would be cheaper, more efficient and have better customer relations.

I hate flying to begin with and this whole new thing makes me hate it even more. The worst part is that I'm now 12 hrs away from my family instead of 8 so if/when my grandmother passes away my parents are planning on having us fly there for the funeral. So the plan is go through Raleigh (a good bit cheaper than flying out of Jacksonville, NC), so I'm sure I'll have to deal with this ridiculous stuff at some point.

[colby]

They announced (yesterday?) that people opting out of the backscatter and just going through the normal machines won't be subject to the extensive pat down during the holidays.

Last time I was in Seattle (and going through LA, too), I ended up in the regular x-ray (no extra pat down) line anyway because it was shorter. ;) I went through the line behind the Alaska check-in counter where the "express lane" for Horizon Portland and Spokane passengers are. They basically just send you through and the one on the far right is the regular x-ray, on the left the backscatter machines.

[emily_in_nc]

I'm unclear on something with all the hoo-ha about ll this on the news. Will I have to go through the body scan x-ray or patdown if I don't set off the metal detector? Or are those more intrusive measures reserved for people who do set off the regular detectors?

Surprisingly, even with a stainless steel plate and 4 pins in my pelvis, I don't set off the regular detectors, thankfully.

[pumpkinpony]

I'm flying next week, and my airport just installed the x-rays. I'm wearing lycra under my clothes and stripping before I go through security. That will speed up the pat-down procedure, and I can show my cancer scars to explain why I'm not going through the x-ray.

Didn't work so well for this guy (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40314284/ns/travel-news/) today in San Diego...

[colby]

I'm unclear on something with all the hoo-ha about ll this on the news. Will I have to go through the body scan x-ray or patdown if I don't set off the metal detector? Or are those more intrusive measures reserved for people who do set off the regular detectors?

Surprisingly, even with a stainless steel plate and 4 pins in my pelvis, I don't set off the regular detectors, thankfully.

The backscatter machines (they are about 6.5 feet tall and you stand between two "walls" and hold your arms up) are the new normal scanning procedure in place of the old x-ray machines. They take a picture of your body (basically going through your clothes) where anything on the outside shows up. Sometimes they pat you down really quickly (might only be if they see something in the scan).

If you opt out of the new machines you can go through the old style x-ray machines, but then they do a more extensive pat-down on you, possibly with the x-ray wand thingy, and usually with their hands.

I am pretty sure if you set off the backscatter machine, you ALSO go through the other machine AND you get the more extensive pat down, too.

[smilingcat]

wait until they touch your hoo-ha's. It happened to a friend of mine, then tell me what you think.

I choose not to fly. It has become beyond ridiculous. All this is to push the boundries of what people are willing to take in name of "security". Geeze the stupid thing is I could buy a round trip ticket on a CC like most people. check in at the baggage counter with oversized bags and make a bit of stink. A duffle bag, a suit case with wheels and a box. Nothing matching. then spend some time in a bathroom and leave. Let the bags travel. Who needs to be martyr anyway?

The whole thing is beyond stupid. If you really want security, do what El Al do. they are very serious about security and its no none sense without the stupidity and without violating your body. All that x-ray exposure is not good. The Germans have tested out the latest gizmo and said its worthless. So who is benefitting? Skeltore Churnoff.

I would post my cartoon here but some may get offended.

[Koronin]

Hmmmm, wonder if these new machines are at the smaller airports like our local one? Maybe if they aren't it would be worth the extra money (100 to 200 per ticket) to fly there instead of going to Raleigh.

[OakLeaf]

I was just thinking today, if the authorities talked to us about all other dangers the way they do about radiation (medical radiation included, I've had the talk from a medical physicist):

"You're exposed to mercury from the coal-fired power plants in the air you breathe anyway, so go ahead and break those light bulbs."

"You're exposed to E. coli anyway if you have pets, so I'm sure you won't mind if we lace your vegetables with it."

.......

[ny biker]

I've been groped by too many strangers in my life. Just one was one too many, but it has happened more than that. So no, I do not ever ever ever want someone touching me at an airport.

But there does not seem to be any way to be sure to avoid it. If you go through the machine, they might decide to grope you anyway.

So I'm done with flying.

I think about people who have been raped, especially teenagers who have been molested. It must be traumatic for them.

And the terrorists are howling with laughter at all if this, because they've achieved their goal.

[colby]

PS: All this talk of the backscatter risks reminds me of the Futurama where the professor uses an F-ray device.

Short sample: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/11248/

[colby]

Hmmmm, wonder if these new machines are at the smaller airports like our local one? Maybe if they aren't it would be worth the extra money (100 to 200 per ticket) to fly there instead of going to Raleigh.

They seem to be rolling them out across all airports, but I'm not sure what the conditions are.

This link: http://studenttravel.about.com/od/planes/f/tsa_backscatter.htm links to this page: http://studenttravel.about.com/od/planes/f/Which-Airports-Have-Full-Body-Scanners.htm which seems to be an unofficial list of which airports have it as of roughly October.

[KnottedYet]

The backscatter machines (they are about 6.5 feet tall and you stand between two "walls" and hold your arms up) are the new normal scanning procedure in place of the old x-ray machines. They take a picture of your body (basically going through your clothes) where anything on the outside shows up. Sometimes they pat you down really quickly (might only be if they see something in the scan).

If you opt out of the new machines you can go through the old style x-ray machines, but then they do a more extensive pat-down on you, possibly with the x-ray wand thingy, and usually with their hands.

I am pretty sure if you set off the backscatter machine, you ALSO go through the other machine AND you get the more extensive pat down, too.

The old machines are not x-ray.

They are magnetic induction (or something like that). They pick up the electromagnetic distortions caused by metal going through the field they generate. Metal detectors, not x-ray.

I don't get why airports are suddenly putting in the x-ray backscatter when the other new option (mm wavelength machines) are just as accurate, cheaper, and have no radiation concerns.

And I have no intention of stripping down to my skivvies like the dude arrested in San Diego (and why did they arrest the woman who filmed it on her phone?). I'll change to lycra shorts and tank top. Probably best if I do it in the bathroom, eh?

My everything has already been patted down multiple times. I always travel with a backpack instead of luggage, so I always fit some darn profile and get "randomly" pulled for stuff. Oh, and my underwire bras used to set off the metal detectors. That part was always fun, so I've started wearing sports bras when I fly.

[colby]

The old machines are not x-ray.

They are magnetic induction (or something like that). They pick up the electromagnetic distortions caused by metal going through the field they generate. Metal detectors, not x-ray.

I don't get why airports are suddenly putting in the x-ray backscatter when the other new option (mm wavelength machines) are just as accurate, cheaper, and have no radiation concerns.

Oops, sorry. X-ray is the plebian "I don't know what exactly that is but we generically refer to it as 'x-ray' version" ;)

[Koronin]

They seem to be rolling them out across all airports, but I'm not sure what the conditions are.

This link: http://studenttravel.about.com/od/planes/f/tsa_backscatter.htm links to this page: http://studenttravel.about.com/od/planes/f/Which-Airports-Have-Full-Body-Scanners.htm which seems to be an unofficial list of which airports have it as of roughly October.

It lists Jacksonville International which has to be Jacksonville, Florida. I'm pretty sure the local one here is not an international airport.

Hmmmm, maybe I can find a flight that leaves from Jacksonville and ends up in Akron and then fly home that way as well as neither one have the body scanners. Yes both are tiny airports......hmmmmm and I'm sure going to be much more expensive, but might be worth it. Jacksonville would be NC not Fla. Akron would be the Akron/Canton Ohio airport.

[pumpkinpony]

It lists Jacksonville International which has to be Jacksonville, Florida. I'm pretty sure the local one here is not an international airport.


Jacksonville is indeed named an 'international' airport...
http://www.airnav.com/airport/jax

Airport authorities frequently like to add 'international' or 'regional' to their names for better publicity. I've seen many name changes to add such wording. They seem to think it draws people in better... :D

Most of the smaller airports don't have the backscatter machines. I'm willing to pay a bit more and drive a bit more to fly out of a smaller airport at this point.

Edit to add, here's another list with more info. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/14968662-post1.html. While screening through these is 'random', it's fairly easy to pick the lane without the machine at some airports. NoS, in case you don't know, is Nude-o-Scope.

[Koronin]

In my case the smaller airports are actually the closer airports, just more expensive. I'm thinking the cost might just be worth it. Our little airport is probably a 15 minute drive vs 2 hours to Raleigh and Akron/Canton is around 45 minutes for my parents vs 1 and a half hours to either Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

[moonfroggy]

i'm glad i don't need to travel. think when i do travel i will just have to get into long distance bike touring ;) avoid planes, cars, trains, buses will limit me to north and south America though i guess.

[OakLeaf]

We last flew in October - Columbus, OH has the machines but hadn't started using them (at least, I didn't see anyone going through them) - Newark, NJ didn't have them yet. So it's not entirely the size of the airport.

[Catrin]

I am just not going to do it. I am not going through those machines and I am NOT going to go through all of that with TSA staff. Therefore I won't be flying. If'en I can't get there by bike, car, or train then I won't be going :cool:

Thankfully all of my family are within a 12 hour drive outside of my sister in San Diego. I further reserve the right to change my mind for special circumstances, but they would have to be da*n special circumstances indeed.

[badgercat]

I just flew from Phoenix to Philadelphia and back. Those are both pretty large airports, but I didn't encounter any of this business on either end. So... who knows how/when this is all actually rolling out.

[OakLeaf]

EPIC (http://epic.org/privacy/airtravel/backscatter/) has a list, but it doesn't look like it's been updated since September, and obviously a lot of it has been rolled out since then. Columbus isn't on their list.

[emily_in_nc]

Since we're building a condo in Belize, I can't opt out of flying. We put down our deposit BEFORE all these new TSA requirements went into effect, unfortunately. Perhaps we would not have if we could have seen the future.

On the positive side, if many people refuse to fly b/c of all this, it should keep Belize from growing too fast. :D But I'd much rather none of us be subjected to this level of privacy invasion.

Interesting about an underwire bra setting off the metal detectors; I wear underwire bras AND have a metal plate in my pelvis and four pins, and I've never set off a detector. You'd think they'd have them set on the same sensitivity level USA-wide at least.

[OakLeaf]

You'd think they'd have them set on the same sensitivity level USA-wide at least.

Not even close. Which also raises questions about the backscatter machines, never mind the recent scandals about medical radiation overdosing.

As much as TSA employees are everyone's least favorite workers right now (mine included), I think employee health is a much bigger issue than traveler health. They're exposed to the stuff all day long. I read in a non-reliable source, and haven't bothered to verify, that they're not even ALLOWED to wear dosimeters, let alone provided with any. And of course the law that created TSA stripped the workers of all of the usual employee protections.

[Biciclista]

Knot, you asked why; because some big fat cat sold some other big fat cat a bill of goods.

Donald flew this weekend in bike duds. Worked very well.

no gropes, no xrays.

[OakLeaf]

I would think anything with a chamois would raise the same issues as sanitary pads and incontinence products. Which I would think have to come off, since they just present as pads on the scanners, and they can't tell what's in them by touch. I wonder about breast cysts on a grope-down, too. :mad:

Someone outfitted in cycling gear probably looks so bizarre in an airport that they wouldn't fit any profile :D but isn't the plan to eventually put everyone through the X-rays?

[jessmarimba]

I missed this whole thread yesterday b/c I spent most of the day flying.

I think this entire thing is bull...

What is to stop these hypothetical terrorists from just picking an airport that doesn't have scanners (many say on their websites if they do and what they have)? Or just choosing the lane that doesn't have one? DIA (Denver) has, at the security checkpoint I went to, just two scanners (wave millimeters, not x-ray). Once the guy checks your ticket you could pick from 6 lanes, so I picked one without the machine. Austin-Bergstrom Int'l didn't have them at all. Even if people DON'T get patted down, those machines take way longer than metal detectors, and I keep ending up with weird anomalies and getting felt up anyway. Also overheard from a woman in the bathroom, if you have your period and you're planning to fly, don't go with a pad. It comes up as a red flag and makes the pat-down a huge pain.

BTW, I think the x-ray machines are the ones with the flat panels - the wave mm are the ones where you stand in the circular transporter thing and the walls circle around you.

I hope they reinstate the process that allows people to pay for a massive background check to get clearance to skip all of this crap.

[pumpkinpony]

Also overheard from a woman in the bathroom, if you have your period and you're planning to fly, don't go with a pad. It comes up as a red flag and makes the pat-down a huge pain.



That brings some nasty thoughts to mind. Would they make you take it out and show it to them, right there in public? :confused:

[Irulan]

We should all just fly naked.

[Norse]

We should all just fly naked.

But according to the SD article posted by pumpkinpony, TSA doesn't like that either. They INSIST on groping/molesting you or taking a naked picture of you. This is all so stupid anyway and will not prevent a single terrorist attack. Question: How many acts/potential acts of terrorism as TSA prevented? Answer: A big fat ZERO! The terrorists ARE laughing at us. They have succeeded in having our own government take away our rights and dignities.

[Tri Girl]

agreed, NG!

[tongue_tied]

I fly from O'Hare all the time. Several times a year. Never have had to go through the x-ray machine. Always wear a thumb ring, watch, and bra with underwire through security. *knock wood* Always get through without setting anything off.

HOWEVER, at a much smaller airport in Asheville, NC, I practically had to take every single thing off.

[OakLeaf]

Would they make you take it out and show it to them, right there in public? :confused:

You have a right to a private screening (but they'll probably hassle you if you ask for one), and reportedly they've made breast cancer survivors take off their bras and show them their prostheses.

As I posted before, same thing with incontinence pads ... which people don't even have the option of using something internal the way menstruating women do ...

[zoom-zoom]

You have a right to a private screening (but they'll probably hassle you if you ask for one), and reportedly they've made breast cancer survivors take off their bras and show them their prostheses.

As I posted before, same thing with incontinence pads ... which people don't even have the option of using something internal the way menstruating women do ...

But wouldn't tampons and menstrual cups also show as anomalies? Seriously, this is starting to really p!ss me off. I fly to Vegas a week from this Friday and back the following Tues. At this point it is likely I will have my period when I leave. Now I don't know how to deal with that. Last thing I want is to have to remove a tampon or menstrual cup in front of anyone. No one should lose their right to privacy during an already miserable situation.

[MomOnBike]

I'm kind of sensitive to this for many reasons:

1) Whatever happened to the 4th Amendment? You know, the one that says:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

(bold mine)

This seems like a textbook case of unreasonable search of my person. Any legal beagles here that have an opinion?

2) I just finished radiation for breast cancer, blast it all. I really don't want or need any more.

3) Speaking of radiation, people are getting radiation in their reproductive organs. This cannot be good for eggs, sperm or developing fetuses.

4) I am not a touchy-feeley type of person. I don't have any desire to be groped. Nor do I wish my daughters to be groped. If I had sons, I wouldn't want strangers messing with their intimate parts. Just. Don't. Touch. Me.

</rant>

Sigh. We bought tickets to Seattle before this was announced. I really want to see my daughter, so I will go, but this will be the absolutely last time I fly.

I'm so old that I remember when we used to feel sorry for the poor Russians because they didn't have the freedom to travel at will in their own country. My right to travel has just been curtailed. I really don't like it. (Hmmm, I guess my rant wasn't quite over, sorry)

[GLC1968]

I'm kind of sensitive to this for many reasons:

1) Whatever happened to the 4th Amendment? You know, the one that says:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

(bold mine)

This seems like a textbook case of unreasonable search of my person. Any legal beagles here that have an opinion?

2) I just finished radiation for breast cancer, blast it all. I really don't want or need any more.

3) Speaking of radiation, people are getting radiation in their reproductive organs. This cannot be good for eggs, sperm or developing fetuses.

4) I am not a touchy-feeley type of person. I don't have any desire to be groped. Nor do I wish my daughters to be groped. If I had sons, I wouldn't want strangers messing with their intimate parts. Just. Don't. Touch. Me.

</rant>

Sigh. We bought tickets to Seattle before this was announced. I really want to see my daughter, so I will go, but this will be the absolutely last time I fly.

I'm so old that I remember when we used to feel sorry for the poor Russians because they didn't have the freedom to travel at will in their own country. My right to travel has just been curtailed. I really don't like it. (Hmmm, I guess my rant wasn't quite over, sorry)

The argument is that you give up that right when you opt to get on an airplane. It's not all that different than giving up the right to bear arms on an airplane.

I'm really torn about this whole issue.

I know that the terrorists are totally laughing at us. Hell, most of the world is laughing at us...terrorists or not. This procedure is not doing anything but potentially making the public FEEL that flying is safer than it really is. And yes, both machines (backskatter and mmwave) pose potential health dangers.

On the opposing side, flying is not a right, it's a privilage and as such, is subject to certain terms...and those terms can change as the industry sees fit. Again, not all that dissimiliar to getting a licence in order to drive... I don't like it, but then, I don't have to fly, either. But of course, TSA is not really the 'industry' but a function of the government and that's where my greatest frustration lies.

[jessmarimba]

I don't find flying for work a privilege. I find it a pain in the...ask. I will happily drive anywhere I can for vacation.

But seriously - it would take some government minion about 5 seconds to google enough about me to know where I am about 95% of the time, know all of my acquaintances, and probably track down my flight patterns. I'm obviously not in cahoots with any terrorist organization. If you want me to feel safer flying, show some indication that you're putting some thought and effort into your security measures.

The TSA to me seems to be the (typically American) Wal-Mart approach to security.

[shootingstar]

Somehow I get this powerful feeling that U.S. federal security checks are abit different than Canadian process for each country's respective domestic flights.

What I have noticed are (seemingly) random selected passengers at the Canadian airports where I've been this year several times over a span of 7 months, is that some individuals are checked more thoroughly with a hand-held scanning device which is presumably is more sensitive than full-body scanning. All passengers get the full-body scan anyway as we walk under the um....x-ray arch security scanniing gate.

[badgercat]

This blogger (who had the advantage of plenty of free time) managed to avoid both the backscatter and the pat-down: http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

[blackhillsbiker]

I'm with MomOnBike. There's cancer in my family history, and I have touch issues! I'd be more than willing to submit to a background check. They can go through my luggage with a fine-toothed comb, and I would wear lycra if that would help. Given the choice, I'd probably still take the scanner. The prospect of being touched all over by a stranger is more than I could take.

Deb

[Owlie]

I'm glad this hasn't fallen to TSA-bashing, or at least not the rank-and-file, as it has elsewhere. I'm not entirely sure they want to be doing this.

I'm kind of glad I'm not going to see DBF this winter. I hate flying, I hate going through airport security because I'm one of those people who's always thinking "What if xyz sets off the metal detectors?" even though the only piece of metal on me is my retainer. The prospect of getting irradiated (even if it is a "small" dose) or being groped (or AND being groped if some part of the picture doesn't come out right) is not an appealing prospect.


Zoom-zoom, since the new scanners don't show anything internal, tampons or cups won't show up.

Edit:
CVG has the scanners, but Dayton doesn't look like they do. Since the driving distance is about the same and flying out of Dayton is cheaper...hehe. Also, CLE doesn't appear to have them. I guess they prioritized the high traffic airports?

[GLC1968]

I'm with MomOnBike. There's cancer in my family history, and I have touch issues! I'd be more than willing to submit to a background check. They can go through my luggage with a fine-toothed comb, and I would wear lycra if that would help. Given the choice, I'd probably still take the scanner. The prospect of being touched all over by a stranger is more than I could take.

Deb

Yeah, ditto this. I'm really not sure what I'm going to do in December. I've still got a month to stress out about it though! ;)

[PamNY]

A message allegedly from Transport Canada (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZfbTlYpKYo), but really the Mercer Report.

[OakLeaf]

I guess they prioritized the high traffic airports?

That can't be, CMH is lower traffic than either CVG or CLE, probably around the same as Dayton.

ORD used to be the highest-traffic airport in the USA (not sure if that's still the case), but surprisingly they weren't on the list that EPIC posted in September (nor was Dulles, although both DCA and BWI were). I was really stunned that EWR didn't have them last month.

[zoom-zoom]

Zoom-zoom, since the new scanners don't show anything internal, tampons or cups won't show up.

Ahhh...I was under the impression that they were, to look for, um, inserted weaponry. :o

[parity]

I am more worried about my plane dropping out of the air then a terrorist blowing up the plane. Human errors (Pilot + other) seems to be the biggest cause, if you believe this site:

http://planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

So all of this security theater is mostly nonsense as far as I am concerned.

[KnottedYet]

I'm with MomOnBike. There's cancer in my family history, and I have touch issues! I'd be more than willing to submit to a background check. They can go through my luggage with a fine-toothed comb, and I would wear lycra if that would help. Given the choice, I'd probably still take the scanner. The prospect of being touched all over by a stranger is more than I could take.

Deb

I've been kidnapped and viciously raped, with nasty brutality with a knife and threat of death involved.

I've had cancer.

Both gave me scars.

Frankly, I'm more afraid of the damn cancer. The kidnapping and the rape messed me up bad (and years of therapy still haven't fixed it, and simply can't... it's my life and every day is a choice to continue living) but cancer takes that choice to live away from me and puts it in the hands of one rogue cell of my body.

I can survive the pat-down. I can choose to fly to be with my loved ones and take the pat-down.

But the x-ray backscatter expends all its energy at the level of the skin, and that's where all my cancer has been so far. The choice is stolen from me with x-ray backscatter.

I can choose to have a mammogram, because I am at very high risk for breast cancer and that exposure is carefully controlled and I have decided it is worth it to me.

But when the choice is a pat down (not my idea of fun, but worth it to be able to fly this time) vs. the x-ray scan (no personal touch issues here, but the possiblity that the scan could trigger more cancer which I really think is bad news) my choice is to live.

As it is actively chosen. every. single. day. of. my. life.

Will I choose to fly next time? I dunno. Probably. Love is more important than fear. Getting where I want to be in 2 hours vs. 18 is more important than avoiding touch in pat-downs (which I have experienced before when I trigger the alert).

Will I let it make me stop traveling? No. Yup, I think the current stuff is stupid and does NOTHING to make us safer. Yup, the convenience of flying is worth the bearable anxiety of being touched through my lycra by a strange woman. (if it were a man, I'd probably freak, and that's the honest truth)

Everyone needs to make their choices. Fly or not? X-ray backscatter or pat-down? And then either live with those choices, or get up and do something about it.

[moonfroggy]

there is no cancer in my family
but i'm a survivor of incest
and the xray thing the pictures i have seen of what they see is enough to make me uncomfortable and the idea that if i was on my period they would need to see my menstrual products.
the pat down the xray thing
i guess being a survivor of incest means i have no family i would want to see anyway and luckily the majority of my friends all live within a few hours of me.
i didn't like flying before this and i sure as heck won't be flying anyplace while this is in place. but i have been seriously talking with my husband about wanting to do long distance bike touring when my son and any future children are old enough to pedal too and this gives me more reason to go for that. the husband things bike touring sounds crazy but this whole thing makes him not want to fly anyplace either so i guess in a way this helps my case for traveling by bike.

[KnottedYet]

Make sure that lycra doesn't have a Chamoise, or they'll want to know what it is.

Not bashing. Just the truth, from what I've read. The same thing has happened with women wearing sanitary pads.

No chamois in my lycra.

I'll be on the rag when I fly. If they wanna see it, fine. It's my choice to fly. It's my choice to put up with this crap. (even the backscatter would lead to a pat-down when the menstrual pad shows up)

Like I said before, I'd rather spend 2 hours to fly to my family than spend 18 hours driving there. I have no shame about my body. The luxury of shame was stolen from me years ago. All of you who still have it, enjoy it. I don't really care anymore.

I'm too busy fighting for the rights of my completely legal and state-recognized marriage to be retained, to give a flying f*ck about TSA. I leave that job to the rest of you.

Moonfroggy - my perp was family, and it went on for years. I'm right there with you. Be strong! Don't let them win!

[pumpkinpony]

A side note on menstrual products...

I seem to get selected for 'random' security screening every time I fly. I had one flight that was a late notice rush - as I was packing I upended an entire box of tampons at the last minute into my carry-on. I got selected for screening and a 'bag check'. That was the quickest bag check ever! Two TSA guys open it up, look inside, close it and ask for a supe. Now three TSA guys, I'm trying hard not to laugh at them... They open the bag again (off to the side now) and the Supe takes a quick look, closes it, and asks if I have any liquids inside. After saying no they let me go.

[KnottedYet]

I had a "marital aid" in my bag once.

It had sparkly silver bits through-out. Very pretty.

The silver glitter showed up on the hand baggage x-ray.

TSA chick ran my bag through. Backed it up. Ran it through again. Backed it up again. Ran it through again. Dude training her said, "No matter how many times you run it through, it's gonna look the same." He had to explain to her what it was. She thought it was a bong. I just stood there smiling.

Whisked me through, and done!

I also had a similar experience with a Brooks saddle. (B68, for those who care.) I told the x-ray guy what it was, "It's a bike saddle," and they let me go without opening my backpack.

[Jolt]

A side note on menstrual products...

I seem to get selected for 'random' security screening every time I fly. I had one flight that was a late notice rush - as I was packing I upended an entire box of tampons at the last minute into my carry-on. I got selected for screening and a 'bag check'. That was the quickest bag check ever! Two TSA guys open it up, look inside, close it and ask for a supe. Now three TSA guys, I'm trying hard not to laugh at them... They open the bag again (off to the side now) and the Supe takes a quick look, closes it, and asks if I have any liquids inside. After saying no they let me go.

LOL at the mental image of that scene...maybe I should try that next time I fly! As for the x-ray/patdown thing, yuck. Flying is less than pleasant anyway (the hassles of getting to the airport, the frequent delays, all the waiting around that's involved, not to mention the fact of being trapped in a metal tube 30,000 feet above the ground way too close to a bunch of total strangers with no way out) and this just tops it off. I wish we had high-speed rail service throughout the USA...that would be a much nicer way to travel.

[VeloVT]

Wow, seems like I'm in the minority. I'd gladly volunteer for a full-body scan to save the inconvenience of taking off my shoes. The new enhanced pat-downs are unappealing, but I really couldn't care less about the scans. While I defer to those who have medical concerns about them, I don't understand the extreme anger they seem to have excited amongst everyone else. Yes, the operator will see you naked -- you and the 10,000 other people that go through the line that day. Few of us are really that memorable.

[KnottedYet]

Few of us are really that memorable.

Ain't that the truth!
For those of us who work in healthcare, the whole "see the body" thing is moot. Honestly, y'all are not that interesting nekkid.

[Owlie]

If I have to fly, I'll take the scanner. I don't like being touched, and I know I'm not that interesting naked. I just don't like the idea of being irradiated unnecessarily either.

[colby]

Wow, seems like I'm in the minority. I'd gladly volunteer for a full-body scan to save the inconvenience of taking off my shoes. The new enhanced pat-downs are unappealing, but I really couldn't care less about the scans. While I defer to those who have medical concerns about them, I don't understand the extreme anger they seem to have excited amongst everyone else. Yes, the operator will see you naked -- you and the 10,000 other people that go through the line that day. Few of us are really that memorable.

Dang you shoe bomber - though they were already making you remove shoes everywhere I went well before that. It used to be some shoes on a TSA judgment call, but then became all shoes as time went on (same time as the 3oz rule, I guess).

Someone could make a MINT off of TSA-approved shoes (like the TSA-approved laptop sleeves). Every time I try to go through in my Five Fingers I ask them what I could hide in 2mm of rubber that they wouldn't catch in the scan (either kind), and they give me the "them's the rules!" face. I'm sure the problem is "where do you draw the line?" and that in the end it's faster to push people through with one rule than to actually think "you could hide stuff we couldn't pick up on the scan in those shoes." I don't really mind the backscatter machines but I prioritise traveling expediently over being in a giant crowd of people with ruffled feathers. Not having to take off my shoes is even more expedient, even if they like to look at my hobbit shoes in the baggage scanner.

I was able to wear my five fingers through airport security in Amsterdam, Rome, and customs arrival in Seattle (where you transfer back to the airport for domestic flights). Apparently my shod feet are safe internationally, but not in the states. ;)

I am concerned about the health issues, it makes sense that there would be a class of people who should avoid exposure. We accept a certain amount of risk in everything we do, the key is to be informed.

[VeloVT]

I've often thought that someone ought to make very minimal disposable paper slip-ons for airport wear -- sort of like I've read you can buy disposable paper travel underwear in Japan. Or like surgical scrubs... Sturdy enough to walk around in throughout a few layovers, but ultimately disposable/recyclable... I'd use them.

[colby]

I've often thought that someone ought to make very minimal disposable paper slip-ons for airport wear -- sort of like I've read you can buy disposable paper travel underwear in Japan. Or like surgical scrubs... Sturdy enough to walk around in throughout a few layovers, but ultimately disposable/recyclable... I'd use them.

I've seen the scrubs-style ones in a few random airports - like the ones that carpet cleaners or people working in your house wear to not track stuff on your carpet. I bet a cleaning supply place would have them.

[jessmarimba]

True. I don't really care what they see with those machines (I do think they are taking away my right to privacy, but someone may as well enjoy seeing me naked). But I don't trust the safety of them. Sure, yeah, the FDA has said they are safe. But how many drugs has the FDA pulled this year alone that they THOUGHT were safe and have changed their minds on? Plus I've read too many scary stories about radiation machines for cancer accidentally putting out way more than necessary - and those are run by medical personnel. I had to take several hours of radiation-safety training just to test properties for lead-based paint, and I doubt anyone from TSA has had equivalent training.

Anyway, I will continue flying because I have to, but my teenage rebellious streak has come out of hibernation from all of this :) I may try to fly in a bikini just to see what happens.

[smilingcat]

That brings some nasty thoughts to mind. Would they make you take it out and show it to them, right there in public? :confused:

What is alleged is that woman's tampons was "ripped" out of her body by a rude TSA agent. Also alleged is that another woman had her vagina penetrated by the finger of a TSA agent. And man who had a bag hooked up to his bladder was ripped off and the urine spilled onto his shirt...

Also alleged is that the TSA agents DO NOT replace the gloves after each enahanced pat down. If you don't care maybe you don't care if you get some bizzaro infection. care for Hep C.?

No thanks.

If TSA was serious about stopping sabotage, hire psychologists who are trained to pick out the nervous traveller or pick out those who are hiding something. EL AL questioning takes less than a minute. No search, no rude questions. Also use bomb sniffing dogs. Dogs can distinguish between fertilizer nitrates versus explosive type nitrates. Nitrogen sniffing machines fail miserably with garden variety fertilizer. The back scatter x-ray goes everywhere so even if you are NOT in the machine, you ARE being exposed. So going for a humiliating enhanced pat-down does you no good.

incompetence and stupidity at its worst! If you find my doodling too offensive, I will remove it. But this is my sentiment. It may not stay up too long.

[KnottedYet]

I'd far rather see more use of sniffer dogs. Less imaging technology. Pat-downs only if the metal detectors and the dogs alert on a passenger.

Dogs stick their noses here and there all the time, trained sniffers do the job without actually touching anything.

Sniffer dogs don't have to look scary, either. I've seen very cute floppy beagles working as sniffers at the airport.

[moonfroggy]

would really like floppy cute beagles
that would work well for me

i am wondering how many people will decide they can't or won't fly after this and how many people would have to decide not to fly for it to have a big enough financial impact on airlines to affect things. i suspect to many people need to fly for work for that to happen. i have friends who need to fly all the time for work who are survivors of all sorts of stuff have all sorts of trauma and i have no idea how they are managing to deal with this. i'm worried about them. for them deciding not to fly would mean getting a new job possibly a career change.

[Crankin]

I have stayed away from this thread, but now that VeloVT said what I think, I will say that none of this is a big deal to me. Yes, I defer to those with medical issues (and this should have been thought of by the gov.) and yes, we need to keep working on better ways to do security. But, I could care less what "they" see of my body, and if for some reason I had to go through a pat down, I'd deal.
I keep thinking what will happen the first time there is a terrorist incident if screening is relaxed. I love to travel and this certainly won't stop me. We all have the freedom to choose to fly or not.
You guys know I am a "blue" person in the bluest of blue states. Maybe I have no modesty or maybe I just don't see this as a big deal. Or maybe having someone who works in intelligence for the military gives me a different perspective.

[OakLeaf]

I have very little modesty, but I'm not going to dis those who do. Sexual assault IS a continuum, as they used to say in the '70s, and the fact that people have endured the horrific extreme end of that continuum doesn't mean that the other end is "nothing."

The point is being forced to disrobe beyond one's personal point of comfort. Everyone has such a point. I was beyond that point the time a male GYN stuck a speculum in me and walked out of the room to get something, leaving the door open and my cervix on display to whoever might walk past (which could have included other patients, drug reps, etc., not just medical personnel). That was really awful for me. Other people may be beyond that point just from being seen in the scanner. Modesty is like pain, everyone's threshold is different, but the experience is still real.

There will be terrorist incidents WITH these screening protocols. Then what? Body cavity searches? CT scans?

[lph]

I was beyond that point the time a male GYN stuck a speculum in me and walked out of the room to get something, leaving the door open and my cervix on display to whoever might walk past

What an absolute idiot :mad:. Just having my friendly and motherly female GYN do the speculum thing in the privacy of a small room has me mortified.

I wouldn't care much one way or the other about the scan myself, but I can fully appreciate that some people find it a very uncomfortable experience. It's not just a question of pulling yourself together and being sensible, or a question of what the scanner thinks or feels.

[TsPoet]

well, if you can't laugh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HXEENr2iDE&feature=player_embedded

with all of the anger over this issue, I found this to be a nice laugh break.

[Biciclista]

FYI, it isn't just the USA.. People in Germany demonstrated at an airport by stripping en mass.
There's another European group afoot that is planning for men to wear kilts and no underwear.

[Trek420]

Somewhere high in the mountain top in a cave or maybe lurking on TE Osama B.L. is having a laugh. "I sent the shoe bomber and now they're taking off their shoes, the underwear bomber and now they're stripping and wearing kilts .... hmmmm, Dolly Parton wig bomber for a full hair search?"

Ride your bike or take the train? :rolleyes:

[Catrin]

I am not what one would call overly modest, but as a violent rape survivor (twice) I am very sensitive about who touches me - and when you hear some of the stories about quite inappropriate touching - whether the stories are true or not - it causes me concern and I would stress out before the trip far more than would be good for me. I have put all of that behind me but it does leave scars and I had to deal with full-blown PTSD because of it. I have not had cancer, but my mother has.

Therefore, as I said, I won't be flying at all any longer unless there it is for something SO attractive that it would out-weigh the stress of what possible searches might occur. Intellectually I understand the process, but choose not to submit myself to it without a VERY good reason.

Pity, as I actually enjoy flying, but you weigh the options and do what is best.

TsPoet - thanks for the link - that was a hoot!

[indysteel]

I'm not sure how I feel about all of this so I haven't weighed in yet on this thread. But I did want to offer a virtual hug to those of you who are rape or incest survivors. My heart truly goes out to you.

[PamNY]

This is slightly OT, but relevant. Patrick Smith, a pilot who writes for Salon, points out that many airport workers with access to aircraft aren't screened at all. (http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/2010/11/22/tsa_screening_of_pilots/index.html)

[emily_in_nc]

It's not the modesty aspect of the backscatter x-rays that bothers me, it's the radiation. I have been exposed to more than my share of x-rays over my life, so it worries me to possibly raise my cancer risk by being exposed to more. I'm not at all worried about someone looking at my body image in a remote location. After a screener has seen a few hundred folks' x-ray, I'm sure my body won't look particularly interesting to them.

Not sure how I feel about having a pat-down. Sounds like they vary widely in how "intrusive" they are. I feel for the man with the urine bag, and women who have had to remove breast protheses; and I completely get how those who have been sexually abused could have problems being touched in this way. I am not sure I believe stories about tampons being removed! As I understand it, the pat-downs are supposed to be outside the clothing. I am sure I wouldn't enjoy being touched that way, but it might be preferable to the radiation, as any embarrassment would only last a minute or two, vs. radiation, which is cumulative.

I'm just not quite sure what I'll do the next time I fly if I have to make this decision. :confused:

[bmccasland]

The interesting thing is that other countries don't go to this extreme or are this intrusive. So on an international flight into the United States, you won't be groped. That's what really gets me, the differing standards. Remove your shoes, belts, and be exposed to x-rays or be groped to fly in the country, OR fly in from another country and stay dressed, less exposure to radiation, and not be groped.

Someone needs to come to their senses in Homeland Security.

Or maybe I need to discover the joys of train travel. :confused:

[BikeDutchess]

That may depend on the country. Flying into the U.S. from Amsterdam this year, I had to be interviewed, go through the total body scanner, and the pat down (and so did everyone).

I still think we should look to Israel for security procedures. I hear El Al is one of the safest airlines to fly and that country certainly has constant security threats.

[jessmarimba]

The last time I took a train out of Philly they had cops with bomb-sniffing dogs all over the place. It was much more intimidating but much less of a pain than flying. However, I guess a knife or a gun wouldn't do as much harm on a train as a plane since the engine is pretty difficult to get to.

My dad works for Amtrak so I am well aware of their difficulties keeping to a schedule (primarily thanks to CSX) but it would be nice if this could encourage everyone to find a way to make rail travel reliable in the US! (And completely off-subject, I've always wanted to do one of those scenic railway trips across Canada...)

[crazycanuck]

Just another reason not to visit the US...

Found this today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11834185

I'd love to fly El Al, just for the security experience!

[Trek420]

Someone could make a MINT off of TSA-approved shoes (like the TSA-approved laptop sleeves).

There is the official shirt :rolleyes: :p

http://www.chokeshirtco.com/product/tsa-uni

[Zen]

Someone needs to come to their senses in Homeland Security.


Bingo

[VeloVT]

We live in an age of paranoia...

Some people are paranoid about suicide bombers, and some people are paranoid about the government -- here's a comment from the above-referenced comment thread on Fox News' website:

The airport was the pilot project. Then come the trains, the subways, government buildings, public buildings, the library, the schools .... Each time it is an x-ray scan. Every individual will have many scans every day. The dose adds up. As a consequence, there will be many people who will become unable to have children. They will use fertility services, which the government taxes and regulates. The government will eventually insist on gene-designed babies, because the gene pool of the population at large has been too damaged by the scanners ... Brave new world!

I guess we each choose the version of reality that seems to us closest to common sense. It's astonishing how much this differs between us, though.

I really don't have any more problem with getting scanned at the subway than I do at the airport. If I had children, I would have no problem with the requirement to vaccinate them in order to enroll in public school -- and this is very much the same thing to me. Public safety, like public health, requires a critical mass of participation in order to be effective.

[Crankin]

Thank you....

[channlluv]

I flew from Orlando to San Diego on Wednesday and all the news reports literally had me fighting anxiety attacks. I actually called the airline twice to ask about scanning and pat downs and were there any ways at all to avoid them. I was ready to go buy a used Prius and drive home instead of putting myself and my 12-year-old daughter through the trauma (and yes, to me, it's traumatic, and I'll tear the place down before I let anyone lay hands on my daughter). We've driven cross-country together twice, just the two of us, and it's a fun trip, so that was actually looking like a good alternative, but I didn't have time to shop, really, because our flight was the next day.

I got to the airport three hours earlier than normal because the local news had shown long lines at security and when I called the airline, that's what they suggested. I was even expecting long lines to return the rental car.

When we arrived, there were no lines anywhere. We drove right in to rental car return and were handled right away. We walked in to the ticketing/baggage check building and I was expecting long lines there, too, and at some airline counters there were average-looking lines, but no mobs. At the Southwest counter, there was absolutely no one ahead of us. The lady checking bags was leaning against the computer stand with her arms crossed over her chest. I breezed up to her and asked, "Where's the crowd?" She laughed and said, "You're it."

We checked our four bags and continued around to the first TSA checkpoint and here's where I got nervous -- would I have to stand down some TSA supervisor, explain why I don't want any strangers touching me or my daughter, and that I'm a cancer survivor, too, and don't want to go through the AIT machine -- but there was no line here, either. We walked up to the first checkpoint stand and there was one woman walking through just ahead of us. She joked with the guy about there not being any big crowds and he smiled back and laughed with her, and I said I was just thinking the same thing as he checked my ID against the boarding pass I'd printed out at my mom's house. He waved us through to the next pair of agents who were directing people through to the various scanner machines.

I had to let them know I was traveling with my father's cremated remains. This older man nodded and ushered me to a line with hardly anyone in it and told me to let the agent there know, so I did. I started unpacking my laptop and my daughter was doing the same, putting our shoes and purses in the bins, when the next agent, a woman, came up behind me and I said, "I was told to let you know that I'm traveling with my father's cremated remains."

She said she was sorry for my loss (seemed sincere), then said they had to put a coin under the case for the purposes of the x-ray machine, so she actually helped me get our bags situated in the bins and put a coin under the bag with the remains in it and as we were walking through the metal detector, the guy at the end had taken the bag with the remains in it (they were in a Mason jar, still in the plastic bag from the crematorium -- my stepmom's doing, and totally in my dad's style, and I'd wrapped that in a soft-sided insulated lunchbag) for further swab testing. I told him he was welcome to unpack the whole thing if he needed to, but he declined and gave the bag back to me.

And that was it for security. No AIT machines, no pat downs, nothing that the news had made such a big deal of. We took the tram to the terminal and there were no crowds there, either. We had two full hours to go before our flight, so we had some lunch in the food court and then we walked down and got settled in the wi-fi chairs near our gate. I let the agent there know, too, about the remains, and apparently that gets you a pre-boarding pass, so we were the first ones onto the plane, too. Go figure.

We experienced the same thing in Denver during our 1-hour layover. No crowds, friendly airline personnel.

Absolutely no drama whatsoever. No invasive anything. They were actually all very accommodating and even seemed like they were all in pretty good moods in spite of having to work on the worst travel day of the year.

Why didn't I get THAT on video and post it on YouTube? I wish I'd thought of it.

Roxy

[sundial]

A creative way to cover your assets in the porn tube:
http://www.rockyflatsgear.com/gifts-for-women/

[OakLeaf]

Those are cute, but obviously anyone who goes through the scanner with radiation-blocking garments will have to be groped.

Roxy, I'm really glad you had a good experience this time (and hoping I'll be able to travel one more time before things get really nutty), but I'm pretty sure that right now they're using profiling to select people while the technology is being rolled out, the intent is that eventually everyone will have to be either irradiated or groped. :( I wasn't able to verify that on TSA's website - but I'm 90% sure I've read that in reliable sources -

[sundial]

If Homeland Security was really interested in ending terrorism in the skies, they would adopt the procedures the Israelis use in their airports: enter a booth, scan for explosives and detonate.

[VeloVT]

Those are cute, but obviously anyone who goes through the scanner with radiation-blocking garments will have to be groped.

Roxy, I'm really glad you had a good experience this time (and hoping I'll be able to travel one more time before things get really nutty), but I'm pretty sure that right now they're using profiling to select people while the technology is being rolled out, the intent is that eventually everyone will have to be either irradiated or groped. :( I wasn't able to verify that on TSA's website - but I'm 90% sure I've read that in reliable sources -

That's really not nutty, though, is it? If you were in charge of security, and you had the ability to screen each and every traveler without huge compromises in efficiency, wouldn't you do it? If we could figure out how to screen every package, I'm sure we'd do that too -- we just don't have the resources and infrastructure to make it possible yet.

My sister flew El Al perhaps 15 years ago. She was 17, between her junior and senior years in high school, and going to Israel as part of a church group to participate on a Harvard-sponsored archaeological dig. This was back in the security dark ages when you could still say goodbye to travelers at the gate... But not at El Al. Travelers were checked for ID and tickets at the outer door to the terminal, and friends/family were not allowed in. I remember my parents having a fit... Anyway, my sister reported that everyone was interviewed individually in a private room -- mostly focusing on whether or not anyone else had had access to their bags. I don't remember if there was a pat-down or not -- if so, it didn't leave a strong impression on her -- it was the individual interrogation that really stood out. As far as I know, she wasn't "profiled" or singled out -- everyone, or perhaps all non-Israeli passports, had to go through it. It's sort of an interesting approach -- apparently Richard Reid (the shoe bomber) was almost not permitted on the flight because of his erratic actions. It's possible that behavioral profiling might be an effective tool. For me, it raises quite a few more concerns about "the police state" and the possibility that justice might not be applied evenly than scanners do, though.

[Chile Pepper]

The radiation worries me, but not the pat downs. My son has a pacemaker, so he is patted down every time we fly. They always, always, always use a same-sex patter. I've even suggested that I wouldn't mind if a woman did it, and they said no, we had to wait for a man. The same would apply to female travelers--only female agents can pat them down.

The radiation on the other hand... My son has been exposed to way more radiation than I'm comfortable with already, frequently without the little lead apron for his private parts (they're a little lax on that sort of safety measure here). No more of that than absolutely medically necessary, thank you very much.

[KnottedYet]

I worry about transgendered folks going through the new TSA stuff. (I know several, and none have done any airtravel lately.)

The "drag queen tuck" isn't gonna hide from either the backscatter nor the pat-down, and a "packer" is gonna show up wrong on the backscatter. (as would breasts in a binder, I assume.)

How does TSA designate the patter for the transgendered pattee?

ETA: google and ye shall receive: http://www.transequality.org/Issues/travel.html

[dianne_1234]

Thanks for the link Knotted; it's an interesting read.

[shootingstar]

The radiation worries me, but not the pat downs. My son has a pacemaker, so he is patted down every time we fly. They always, always, always use a same-sex patter. I've even suggested that I wouldn't mind if a woman did it, and they said no, we had to wait for a man. The same would apply to female travelers--only female agents can pat them down.

The radiation on the other hand... My son has been exposed to way more radiation than I'm comfortable with already, frequently without the little lead apron for his private parts (they're a little lax on that sort of safety measure here). No more of that than absolutely medically necessary, thank you very much.

Children really are vulnerable.

[smurfalicious]

since the new scanners don't show anything internal, tampons or cups won't show up.

Oh thank goodness! I was worried my lucrative career as a drug mule was about to come to a halt! *smirk*

[PamNY]

Regarding safety of the machines, I can't stop thinking about how they told us the air was safe to breathe after 9/11.

[Jolt]

If TSA was serious about stopping sabotage, hire psychologists who are trained to pick out the nervous traveller or pick out those who are hiding something. EL AL questioning takes less than a minute. No search, no rude questions. Also use bomb sniffing dogs. Dogs can distinguish between fertilizer nitrates versus explosive type nitrates. Nitrogen sniffing machines fail miserably with garden variety fertilizer. The back scatter x-ray goes everywhere so even if you are NOT in the machine, you ARE being exposed. So going for a humiliating enhanced pat-down does you no good.


I agree about increasing use of sniffer dogs. As far as hiring people who are "trained to pick out the nervous traveler", the problem I see with that is that there are a lot of "nervous travelers" who are not terrorists--flying is just plain nerve-racking sometimes. I'd hate to think that I would potentially get in trouble just because I am a bit stressed out by the following: the crowds and lines at the airport, trying to find where I need to go and get there in time, being interrogated (like the person who posted her experience flying from Amsterdam to the US, I had to go through all that when doing so this spring--necessary but still unnerving, like being treated as a criminal), and just the fact that I am about to put myself in a situation where if something goes wrong, it could be really bad news. How would they guard against those kinds of "false positives" so to speak?

[Irulan]

http://ori.cnbc.com/id/40335379

The gal who pulls her breast prosthetics (masectomy) and tosses them in the bin belong to a professional group with me, she shared this article.

[sundial]

I wish Homeland Security would allow TSA to train with Israeli airport security. Not only are Israeli's thorough with inspections (and no pat downs!) but they are trained to study the reactions of individuals who, upon questioning, may be deemed as a possible terrorist. If there's any country that has to deal with the greatest potential for terroristic threats by extremists, it's Israel.

I came across a letter endorsed by several biochem professors at USC that details the documented risks and resulting injuries produced by the backscatter machine. View the actual letter here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35498347/UCSF-letter-to-Holdren-concerning-health-risks-of-full-body-scanner-TSA-screenings-4-6-2010

I have a real problem with not only the use of these so called security measures but for the TSA's approach to young children who are strip searched in front of their helpless parents. :mad: :mad: One woman, who was traveling with her young grandchildren, opted for a pat down and was forced to set her toddler on the floor well away from the TSA agent and watched helplessly as people walked by the baby. The agent told her that she could not hold the child because she would "contaminate" her.

What kind of screening is that?? Placing a toddler on the floor, away from the grandparent, in a busy airport where someone could have easily kidnapped the child?? Sorry but I would have politely told them them they could not touch me or my children.

[emily_in_nc]

That letter is scary, sundial. I would definitely trust what those UCSF scientists/faculty have to say vs. what the TSA and government have to say about the safety of the backscatter machines.

I wonder if anything will come of this letter - I fear not.

[OakLeaf]

Thanks for that, sundial. I'd heard the same thing, but only repeated second or third hand by people with no expertise - hard to convince others when I'm just repeating it myself.

[sundial]

Emily, I fear the gov't doesn't really have our best interest at heart.
Oak, I hope people become more aware of the dangers of the backscatter devices. The more people are educated about such matters the better.

[channlluv]

That letter is amazing. It never occurred to me that the operators of these machines might be able to adjust the radiation level to improve the image. Holy cow. And that the level of radiation exposure is more concentrated in the skin and immediately adjacent tissue...I can't imagine any man agreeing to put himself at that kind of risk for testicular cancer, and I sure don't want my daughter or me going through the machines. I have a history of skin cancer.

I don't think I'll be able to fly until these machines are gone.

Roxy

[NbyNW]

I flew from Canada to the US and back last weekend and was expecting all kinds of inconvenience -- in my past experience they've taken the US security measures quite seriously. But this time, no pat-down, no backscatter. Just the normal stuff. I was surprised.

Still, I'm grateful for this thread for raising my awareness about what people have been experiencing these past few months. Who knows what TSA will be doing for Christmas!

Given the option, I'd take a train. Much more comfortable! But not an option right now.

[pll]

Thanks for posting a link to the letter sundial. I flew to Seattle last Wednesday, was selected for the backscatter at O'Hare, and I opted out. Thus, I was patted down. The TSA woman was very respectful, asked about any sensitivities and explained every step before carrying it out; the process was tolerable. I requested fresh gloves, though.

What is most annoying about security in the US is how reactive the process is: shoes, underwear... I think having bomb sniffing dogs in security would be more effective than any X-ray or "enhanced pat down". Dogs would also be friendlier.

[emily_in_nc]

Thanks for posting a link to the letter sundial. I flew to Seattle last Wednesday, was selected for the backscatter at O'Hare, and I opted out. Thus, I was patted down. The TSA woman was very respectful, asked about any sensitivities and explained every step before carrying it out; the process was tolerable. I requested fresh gloves, though.

Glad to hear the patdown wasn't too bad. I'm leaning towards doing that instead of the backscatter if I get picked for that the next time we fly. I'd rather face a couple of minutes of embarrassment than risk my health for something non-essential.

[sundial]

Pll, you're welcome and I'm glad that you had a TSA agent that was respectful of your modesty. :)

Here's another letter raising concerns about the backscatter devices. This is written by Rep. Holt (D-NJ) who is a PhD physicist:

http://holt.house.gov/images/stories/updated_TSA_letter_11.19.2010.pdf

[channlluv]

Do you suppose these machines and the aggressive patdowns will be gone by summer? I really want to go to Hawaii, and I get motion sick on the stationary Blood Mobile, so a cruise really isn't an option.

Roxy

[snapdragen]

Do you suppose these machines and the aggressive patdowns will be gone by summer? I really want to go to Hawaii, and I get motion sick on the stationary Blood Mobile, so a cruise really isn't an option.

Roxy

Well, most big cruise ships have stabilizers, so chances are you wouldn't have too much of a sea sick problem. My mom took ginger on her cruise, it helps.

It's starting to sound like not everyone has to go through the machine or the pat down, some just go through the regular metal detector. Or am I reading it wrong?

[PamNY]

It's starting to sound like not everyone has to go through the machine or the pat down, some just go through the regular metal detector. Or am I reading it wrong?

That's what it sounds like to me, but I don't think you get to choose. I assume you'd need to be prepared to deal with the machine or the pat down.

[Trek420]

More info on the x'ray medical issue, a pretty good article:

http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2010/11/tsa-x-ray-backscatter-body-scanner.html

[Fredwina]

I flew "home" to visit Family
At LAX(Los Angeles International) , They were just using the metal detector (They did have the Backscatter machines there)
Lil'old Cape Girardeau doesn't have the Nude-o-Scopes yet. I did have a note in my checked luggage that it had been searched by the TSA.

[Bluetree]

I've been through various airports eight times in the last ten weeks, crossed the U.S, the Pacific and the Atlantic, with and without my bike. I haven't come across anyone or anything that I considered rude, annoying or violating. I only got a pat down twice, and both times, they were non-obtrusive and the agent was extremely polite.

The only annoyances were people who did not know of the TSA carry-on regulations, thus holding up the lines.

[KnottedYet]

Did the TSA thing yesterday.

The pat-down was no problem at all. Standard pat-down just with a lot more detailed verbal explanation before each touch, and attention to the legs than usual.

The poopy part was the "Opt Out" 3-ring circus.

I was directed to the x-ray backscatter, and politely said I couldn't do it. (I did not offer to display my collection of cancer scars, but I was ready to.)

Dude running the metal detector and backscatter in my lane hollered out "WE HAVE AN OPT OUT" and that got repeated up and down the 5 lanes that were running. "SHUT DOWN THE BELT. WE HAVE AN OPT OUT."

They directed me to stand right where I was, shut down the x-ray belt my stuff was on, the TSA folks on the lanes either side of me made all the passengers pick up their stuff from my lane and duck under the lane dividers and get into new lanes, all the while saying "I'm sorry, we have to start you over because there's an Opt Out in your lane." One woman glared at me as she struggled to carry 2 bins of stuff and fold over double to duck under the divider. I told her I was sorry.

I felt like sh*t.

It took a couple minutes before a female TSA agent could come get me. She removed my stuff from the stopped belt (wouldn't let me carry it) and brought me over to the pat-down area. Once I was removed from the lane, they started the belt up and let passengers enter the lane again.

After the pat-down, I asked her what I could do in the future to prevent an entire lane from being shut-down and other passengers behind me having to pick up their stuff and move to new lanes. She told me there really wasn't anything else, and that I was fine.

Some airports I've been in have the special needs lanes/slow lanes at the TSA check point. I think in future I'll just go straight to that lane (if there is one) to avoid the total lane shut-down I cause just by asking for the frisking option.

[emily_in_nc]

Oh wow, that's too bad, Knott. I think they should just have an "opt out" lane. Maybe in time they will as it would be much more efficient for everyone.

[sundial]

"I'm sorry, we have to start you over because there's an Opt Out in your lane."

You know, I think they purposely make you feel embarrassed as punishment for not going through their porn tube. There are so many filed complaints of passengers who were belittled for opting out. I'm glad that you stood your ground and did the opt out and that your pat down was conducted in a professional manner.

Excellent source of information and links for filing a formal complaint against TSA:
http://wewontfly.com/

There's a class action lawsuit that's been filed against TSA. Hopefully it will result in the removal of the gropers and scanners from our airports.

[OakLeaf]

You know, I think they purposely make you feel embarrassed as punishment for not going through their porn tube.

I agree, and that's nothing new. It's the same reason elderly people, particularly elderly women, have been profiled all along for more intrusive searches.

But that's another thread...

[Cataboo]

I flew out of DC a couple weeks ago - there were machines but they weren't using them. Same with flying out of Fort Lauderdale yesterday.

I would have opted out if they wanted to use one. I find the entire thing ridiculous, especially since the machines can't find anything in cavities or anything - so really... what exactly are these machines doing that a metal detector & some sort of explosive sniffing dog or swiping machine couldn't do? But I love traveling too much to decide not to ever travel again because of them.

Re - motion sickness in cruises - I get motion sick, but most especially when I don't have fresh air or wind - so if I stay on deck on a cruise, I don't have much problems with it. I make sure to get an upper level room because it's down in the bowels of the ship that I really have issues.

[KnottedYet]

My mom had an interesting experience in an x-ray backscatter machine a couple weeks ago.

She has a lot of scar tissue UNDER the skin of her belly from decades of insulin injections. (no visible scars)

The backscatter radiation penetrated below the level of her skin and reflected off those subdermal scars, setting off an alert on my mom. She got a pat-down of her torso before they would let her through.

There's a bit more penetrating radiation in that procedure than we might think.

[Biciclista]

Knot
thanks for starting this thread and sharing your experiences (and those of your mom!!!)
Even though I am not an incest survivor, nor a cancer survivor, I am pretty unhappy about the aspect of getting zapped by their machines as well as getting groped by a man or a woman. I am not sure why I am supposed to be comforted because the groper is guaranteed to be the same sex as me. Why is that less intrusive?
I used to look happily towards my next flying experience, I first flew in 1957 and then intercontinentally in 1964. Sadly, I find myself wanting to avoid ever flying again.

[Becky]

My mom had an interesting experience in an x-ray backscatter machine a couple weeks ago.

She has a lot of scar tissue UNDER the skin of her belly from decades of insulin injections. (no visible scars)

The backscatter radiation penetrated below the level of her skin and reflected off those subdermal scars, setting off an alert on my mom. She got a pat-down of her torso before they would let her through.

There's a bit more penetrating radiation in that procedure than we might think.

Wow.....I never considered the scar tissue thing (and I have plenty). I guess it's just as well that my insulin pump can't go through a backscatter machine. Either way, I'm getting a pat-down :/

[jessmarimba]

Every time I fly out of Richmond (which has the wave mm machines) I end up with a secondary pat-down of my torso because of an "anomaly." Well, the machine isn't supposed to be able to penetrate skin, but the patdown always begins in the area of my back hardware.

I don't trust these things! But I can't avoid flying, either :(

[Owlie]

Is it bad that I'm half hoping I don't get an interview at one of the schools I'm applying to because I'd have to fly? I hated it before the backscatter machines/"enhanced pat-downs" were introduced.

[Mr. Bloom]

Since I've got no special needs or issues, I've got no problem with the security. While I recognize that some find offense in the "pat down" alternative, I'm guessing that after a couple of hours of it, it's as unpleasant for the "patter" as it is the "pattee".

I'm glad that I'm not a TSA agent:

No upside
No gratitude
Heavily regimented
Stressful monotony
Stereotypes galor


I'm glad we have the TSA...I'm sorry we have a world that requires a TSA.

I hate flying for plenty of reasons...but security is no where near the top of my list

[Jolt]

Is it bad that I'm half hoping I don't get an interview at one of the schools I'm applying to because I'd have to fly? I hated it before the backscatter machines/"enhanced pat-downs" were introduced.

I just got back from a couple of job interviews that I had to fly to...didn't have to go through the scanner or get patted down at all. I did initially get picked to go through the scanner in Boston but they were kind of backed up so they ended up just sending me through the regular metal detector. Then on the way back I was flying out of Duluth, MN which has a very small airport that doesn't even have the scanner. Those small airports are kind of nice...not so much crowding and chaos, and it doesn't take forever to get to the gate!

[OakLeaf]

More:

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/05/why-secrecy-airport-scanners

[sundial]

Oak, the article that you posted certainly raises more questions than answers. Like many here, I don't have a desire to fly--especially now that I have new hardware. What is alarming to me is this gradual desensitization of the masses to the whims of questionable security measures. What you see is not unlike how the Jews were searched prior to being sent to the camps in Nazi Germany. It has sunk that low.

[Crankin]

I still won't stop flying, but I wonder what the profile is for who gets scanned.
We flew from Logan to San Diego and back. DH got scanned both times and I was waved through.
He definitely looks "Semitic" and I got the Aryan genes.

[sundial]

Crankin, from what I've read from first hand accounts it seems that you will be TSA'd if you are 1) handicapped 2) elderly 3) woman. Arabs rarely get patted down, possibly due in part to their Sharia Law.

[TsPoet]

I still won't stop flying, but I wonder what the profile is for who gets scanned.
We flew from Logan to San Diego and back. DH got scanned both times and I was waved through.
He definitely looks "Semitic" and I got the Aryan genes.

that doesn't make any sense. I fly a lot - the lanes where you will and won't get scanned are labeled, all you have to do is move over. He must have been standing in different lines than you.
That's in the 5-6 airports in which I've flown over the last few years with the scanners.

[Crankin]

Nope, we were standing in the same line. I was behind him. He was motioned to stand in front of the scanner and when I was about to step forward, the agent waved over to the other line, to go through the regular thing. They do this all of the time at Logan and it seems rather arbitrary.
It also happened in San Diego.

[shootingstar]

I find this strange and interesting for U.S. domestic flights, the pat down.

I haven't had a pat down since 9-1-1. Or ever in my life. And I have flown since that time, well over 15 different flights with 6 flights outside of Canada into the U.S. and Europe.

I fly at least once per yr.

[NbyNW]

Last winter/spring I (and everyone taking flights to the US) was routinely getting patted down or scanned at the Edmonton airport. Seems to have eased off of late, and I have no idea why.

[channlluv]

My husband, daughter and I are flying to Oahu in a couple of weeks. I'm terrified of the pat down procedure, but I'm more scared of the radiation from the machines. I've called the TSA to ask for other options and was assured by the guy on the phone that they're not doing this to upset me - thanks - but I had a weeping anxiety attack as I sat there on the phone with him telling me I had no choice in the matter. I could either submit myself to physically dangerous radiation (skin cancer history), or to the psychologically dangerous enhanced pat down (rape and molestation survivor).

I even wrote a message to the White House about it today, but I doubt it will be taken seriously. I wrote to Barbara Boxer a few months ago and got a "thank you for your letter but there's nothing I can do for you" response.

My daughter is only 13. Except for me, the only people to even see her naked in the last ten years are her doctor and the other women changing at the Y pool locker room. She's shy about getting naked in front of people, but if everyone's doing it, it's not as big a deal. To my knowledge, there has been no touching of any kind for her.

So do we have to have an amendment to this no touching rule? Do we have to include random TSA agents?

I'm really hoping we get to just walk through the regular scanners.


What should we wear?
Knot, did the lycra thing work out well for you?
If I wear a dress, they can't check a waistband, but how far up do they go with their hands?

Can I insist on them changing their gloves before patting me down?

Any other suggestions for getting through this with a minimum of psychological trauma?

Thanks,
Roxy

[Biciclista]

wearing bike stuff does help because it's form-fitting. I really feel for you, but i have no good news because so far whenever they've been challenged, authorities are coming to the sides of TSA (like making that 90 year old woman take off her depends!!!!)
your daughter will be fine. She isn't going to see what they are seeing. And if you're lucky you will all just cruise on through there like I did the last time I flew (October, 2010)

[channlluv]

Thanks, Mimi. I do tend to get myself worked up over stuff.

Roxy

[GLC1968]

If you are ok with your daughter doing the scan, I would just let her. I just had my first one a couple of days ago and it was no big deal. My image was not visible to anyone on the outside (even me) and it's really quick and simple. I was watching their system while waiting for my traveling companion to put on her shoes and they were alternating sending through one male and then one female. It was mostly done without even speaking instructions, it was that quick and simple.

As far as the pat down, I can't help you there. I haven't seen it (or experienced it), but I agree with Mimi - chances are that you'll not be selected anyway, so try not to get too worked up about it. Easier said than done, I know...

[Trek420]

So far it's been easy to explain to the TSA who checks ID against boarding pass that I've had skin cancer, want to reduce radiation and not do the back scatter.

Each time I've just been pointed to the line that's using the regular metal detection etc. So far no pat down. I empathise with anyone who would find the pat down upsetting. I would not exactly look forward to it but probably would not ruin my day either. I just wanted to reduce the ammount of radiation I get due to a skin cancer scare I had.

[channlluv]

I'm happy to explain about the skin cancer. I'd rather not have an emotional meltdown because of the pat down, though. Especially not when we're heading to Hawaii, and my daughter doesn't know about my history. I'd rather not spend the five-hour flight explaining.

I'd be fine with the regular machines. I hope that's what happens.

Roxy

[GLC1968]

Don't wear a dress. They single out women in dresses because they claim something could hide up there that could be used to take over the plane.

I don't buy this. I wore a skirt on one leg of my trip and was not singled out. On the return trip, I was wearing pants when they sent me through the backscatter scanner. My boss, who was travelling with me on the return trip WAS wearing a skirt and she was sent through the regular x-ray machines. Exact opposite of what you are suggesting!

[ny biker]

Thanks, Mimi. I do tend to get myself worked up over stuff.

Roxy

I'd say you have a reason to get worked up.

I think that if they are doing the pat down, the person can request that it be done in a private room. So that might be an option to avoid having anyone else see a potential emotional meltdown.

Also I know emotions tend to be unpredictable and difficult to control, but I wonder if there's anything you can do in advance to try to minimize any reaction you might have on the spot. Like repeating to yourself over and over that the screener is doing a job, not trying to victimize anyone, not trying to hurt anyone. More like a doctor doing an exam -- just doing a job.

Sorry if that sounds ridiculous, I'm just wondering if analyzing the situation beforehand might make it less overwhelming in the event that it actually happens. Or if there's some coping mechanism you might have picked up from a therapist or support group that could be applicable.

[channlluv]

That doesn't sound at all ridiculous. It actually strikes me as a good plan.

I've not had a lot of luck with therapy, but I do like your suggestion.

Roxy

[pll]

@channlluv:

The x ray is easily avoided by saying you "opt out" without having to give any explanation whatsoever. Cannot help with the pat down, but I've had it done several times. One time, because I was in a particularly bad mood, I asked to the TSA rep to please change her gloves. She did, a bit annoyed, though (so, we were even... mission accomplished).

I am thinking that asking for a private room may lead to the meltdown: you will have to wait, with tension building up. It might be easier to get the pat down on the spot, just look around the terminal. It does not take long; remember that the TSA person is uncomfortable, too, perhaps more than anyone else. In my last international flight, just last week, I opted out and was not patted, simply waived through the usual metal detector. Go figure.

[jessmarimba]

I am not sure how things work at your airport, but you may be able to pick a line without the option of an image scanner. Denver usually filters into about 6-8 lines for security and you can see in advance that at least 2 will only have a metal detector. They're generally the faster lines, too, so it doesn't look suspicious to pick them :)

In better news, I just made it through my first image scanner in Omaha that I wasn't singled out for a patdown afterwards. Maybe as my back gets stronger, the metal becomes less visible! (Note to self - don't skip pilates tomorrow...)

[Biciclista]

ps opting for a private room would make it WORSE for me too!

[KnottedYet]

I fly probably once every month or two.

Every time I've told the dude who checks ID (before the screeners) that I've had skin cancer and cannot go through the backscatter, he (or she) has directed me to the line with only a metal detector. I've never been asked to show my surgery scars or any other "proof." (though I'm ready to whip off my shirt if anyone wants to see them) I've offered to go through the "medical needs" line, but I've never been directed there.

I've only been patted-down once.

The pat-down itself was not that bad. Roxy, I've got issues, too. Therapy helped me a lot for things like pat-downs and medical exams. Consider asking your doctor for a prescription for a couple valium pills. I've used them before the kind of things that do set me off, and they work great. Just enough to take the edge off but no sense of inebriation or being spacey. I couldn't tell I'd taken anything, other than the fact that I didn't have a panicked freak-out like I'd expected. People with me can't tell I've taken anything, either.

I like valium. You can get a prescription for only 1 or 2 pills. You don't even have to take them. Just knowing you have them if you need them is a huge relief.

[Pax]

Roxy - In a former life I was a LEO and have done thousands of pat downs; done properly it's very quick and professional. The groin touch (if done) is to check for a "padded feel" so it's just a light bump with the side of the hand. An officer who does dozens of these a day should be VERY smooth and quick.

I actually did a demonstration speech in my college speech class, showing how they're done. People were amazed at how minimal the touching part was.

[channlluv]

Well, I woke up practicing what I would say to the pat down agent, just like ny biker suggested, and I feel better about it today.

It just occurred to me that I have no trouble getting naked for my sports therapy massages. Those aren't invasive, though, and my perception of these pat downs is that they're invasive. So I need to change my perception.

This woman is just doing a job. That's all it is. Although, Pax, some of the YouTube videos I watched seemed a little excessive on the rubbing.

Knot, thank you for the suggestion of telling the ID checker about my history of skin cancer. I can for sure do that. And I will check with my doctor about the valium. I've taken it before for dental work. I get wiggy in that chair, too.

Jess, congrats on getting through the machine without setting them off. Is that part of the therapy, getting stronger so the metal rods and such aren't as detectable?

pll, I'm going to ask the agent to change her gloves, too.

What do you guys think about the violation of our Fourth Amendment Rights to no unreasonable searches of our persons? I've been doing a lot of reading the last couple of days online and there's a lot of outrage about it, but it doesn't seem like anyone can do anything about it. I've written one real-mail letter to Barbara Boxer (my Senator), one email to the White House comment line, and one phone call to a sympathetic but unmoving TSA agent through their national contact line.

What has to happen for these machines and enhanced pat downs to go away? Is our collective ego so big that we can't take a lesson on security from Israel?

Is this really what the Nazis did to the German people before they started carting off whole neighborhoods to the internment camps? I read that somewhere. I can't remember where.

Someone on the boards here said something about our own government terrorizing us more than Al Queda ever dreamed. There's a lot of truth in that.

Roxy

[Trek420]

Is this really what the Nazis did to the German people before they started carting off whole neighborhoods to the internment camps? I read that somewhere. I can't remember where.

No, it's really not. :rolleyes:

Oy :o. As the child and grandchild of survivors I feel one shouldn't compare anything with the Holocaust other than other genocide.

I personally feel atrocities like the Sudan, the killing fields of Cambodia, the decimation of Native American peoples are the same. Numbers may be less or even more such as the numbers killed during Stalin's Russia.

Others feel passionately that nothing should ever be compared to the Holocaust and that doing so trivializes the death of over 6 million killed because of who they were.

I'm sure we feel as I do that we should know history so we never forget and never let this happen again. I recommend you start with a reliable source and not some forum. You'll never learn anything on a forum ;) :p I recommend starting:

http://www.ushmm.org/genocide/

[OakLeaf]

we should know history so we never forget and never let this happen again

... and an important part of that is not forgetting the other 5-7 million people (http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/) killed by the Nazis ...



/hijack

[Veronica]

Is our collective ego so big that we can't take a lesson on security from Israel?



Given the numbers of people who travel here in the US I suspect we would need to get to the airport a DAY or two ahead of our flights to get interviewed by the well trained agent to see if we are terrorists.


And how many well trained agents would there need to be at every airport? How much money are those well trained agents going to get paid yearly? What funds are going to be used to pay them?

Israel as a country is like 1/10 the size of California. How many major airports do they have? Fewer than California I suspect.

What you are suggesting would be a huge undertaking and a massive financial burden on someone - either the travelers or the taxpayers.

Veronica

[pll]

Roxy: You do not need to tell the TSA folks anything about your health. You can opt out without explanation. At least in O'Hare, there are prominent signs stating you may opt out of the back scatter. I opt out not because of a health issue, but because I do not trust the TSA to competently maintain and handle those machines. In a hospital, they are attended to by specialists and not used nearly as frequently. The TSA won't even allow their personnel to wear the badges that track their exposure to radiation.

It may help to crack a joke if you are apprehensive. I don't find the pat down particularly invasive. The TSA person always tells you what she is about to do, and does it quickly. Not the most comfortable event ever, but a lot less invasive than most doctor/dentist visits.

[OakLeaf]

I don't think opposition to racial profiling - or other profiling based on appearance - has anything to do with "ego."

It does seem to me that people profiled as most likely to be terrorized, not terrorists - in particular elderly white females - are disproportionately selected for extra screening. I could go on about why I think that's the case ...

[Veronica]

Are those just the ones that get written up in the news though?

I am sure, as with every profession, there are icky people. But to just assume that they are all icky... That's like saying all teachers are in it for the three months off and because they couldn't a real job. All lawyers are scumbags and ambulance chasers. All IT people are geeks and can't get a date.

We know those generalizations aren't true. Teachers only get two months off. :D

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

Are those just the ones that get written up in the news though?

It's what I've observed and what I've heard from relatives. Not that writing it up in the news isn't part of the strategy ...

I don't think individual TSA screeners are "icky," by and large. I think they're underpaid for doing an unpleasant and potentially dangerous job, and on top of that, they've had to fight tooth and nail every step of the way for employment rights that most workers take for granted. But all law enforcement jobs force workers into an "us vs. them" mentality, and they're no exception.

(Part of why I knew I couldn't do criminal law as a career, as much as I loved some of the work. Prosecution or defense, it doesn't matter, seeing only the ugliest side of humanity day after day - and looking hard to find the ugliness in every person you see - just warps people. IMVHO...)

[Veronica]

But all law enforcement jobs force workers into an "us vs. them" mentality, and they're no exception.

I guess I'm weird because I don't feel that way. I've always felt like law enforcement was on my side. Even when I got pulled aside for extra screening, which annoyed me. But I still felt like they were just doing their job to try to keep every one safe.

Maybe I'm naive because believe in the system. It's not a perfect system and I know there is injustice. But I think it's better than anything else.

And I'm glad that I am in a position where I can look for the goodness in those I work with.

Veronica

[pll]

Given the numbers of people who travel here in the US I suspect we would need to get to the airport a DAY or two ahead of our flights to get interviewed by the well trained agent to see if we are terrorists.


And how many well trained agents would there need to be at every airport? How much money are those well trained agents going to get paid yearly? What funds are going to be used to pay them?

Israel as a country is like 1/10 the size of California. How many major airports do they have? Fewer than California I suspect.

What you are suggesting would be a huge undertaking and a massive financial burden on someone - either the travelers or the taxpayers.

Veronica

I beg to differ. The TSA tries to replace intelligence with mechanical checks and technology. TSA security protocols are entirely reactive: take the check on shoes or the liquids issue... Those backscatter machines were not free (they run at the tune of $100k to $200k per machine, not considering training and maintenance costs, assuming, even hoping, they spend on that at all). Perhaps that money, now lining some company's pockets, should have been used in training of the huge number of staff members the TSA already has in place. Or to train sniffer dogs. Instead of smart profiling, they terrorize people and they have the perpetual and misused threat of adding people to the no-fly list. Does anyone honestly feel safer since the TSA was created, seriously? Air marshals were a good idea -- I think that was an Israeli practice. Taking our shoes off, carrying ZIP lock bags... not so brilliant.

[emily_in_nc]

We are flying to Belize tomorrow morning (out of Charlotte), and I'll be interested to see if we get asked to do the backscatter x-ray. We haven't flown since the new regulations. If I am chosen to have the x-ray, I plan to opt out, as I've had so many x-rays in my life that I don't want any more radiation.

I don't think the pat-down will bother me, as long as it's done quickly and professionally. But it would be great not to have either. We'll see!

[jessmarimba]

I went in to the doctor today for more x-rays, and I chatted with him a bit about the machines. He was pretty certain that the hardware will be picked up by the image scanners regardless (despite the fact that the machines shouldn't be able to see under the skin) and he seemed to think that when I am called for a secondary pat-down, it is because we are dealing with lesser-trained agents who don't recognize the hardware for what it is. His advice was to just show them the scar when they pull me aside :p

(just wanted to note - I will go through wave mm detectors, but not x-ray)

[Koronin]

Good luck with the Charlotte airport. I am not fond of that air port. Used to live outside of Charlotte and my husband flew several times for work and my sister flew a couple of times to visit us. Most of the it was more an issue with finding luggage upon getting off the plane because they never seem to know which luggage carousel is going to get what plane's luggage. The last I'd heard that is one of the air ports looking at kicking TSA out in favor of private security due to some issues.

[channlluv]

No, it's really not. :rolleyes:...

I'm sure we feel as I do that we should know history so we never forget and never let this happen again. I recommend you start with a reliable source and not some forum. You'll never learn anything on a forum ;) :p I recommend starting:

http://www.ushmm.org/genocide/


Thank you, Trek, for your understanding. I certainly meant no offense, but I think you know that. Thanks for the directions, too, to the appropriate source material. I've realized that people who are trying to express something with great passion tend toward the bombastic in comparing their drama with other historical events of much greater magnitude. I'm sorry I let that seep into my post.

I appreciate all the other good points made and opinions shared, too.

I do love the variety on this board.

Roxy

[pll]

Hmm Snap... Borderline. Something like that won't help those who are anxious about these pat downs and looked for reassurance in this very thread.

[TsPoet]

Hmm Snap... Borderline. Something like that won't help those who are anxious about these pat downs and looked for reassurance in this very thread.

I not only laughed, I showed it to the SO, who also had his day brightened.

[Trek420]

No fair giving just the highlights. Now I'm waiting for the rest of the the Harlequin novel where she also gets the castle. I've never read one but I heard somewhere that Harlequin novels plot lines are 3 little words: girl gets house. :rolleyes:

Aren't the pat downs usually done by the same gender? That's a whole 'nother genre of literature. :rolleyes: ;) :p

[Duck on Wheels]

I'm a frequent flyer. So far the past 12 months: at least a dozen round trips, many of them involving multiple flights each way, often with separate security checks (many airports don't have a way to get from one area to another without going out of the secure area, which means you have to get checked to get back in). I always opt out of the backscatter x-ray. Imagine my exposure just from flying if I didn't! Not to mention all the x-rays I have for medical reasons :eek: I am usually not asked why I'm opting out. Twice I was asked and just said I wanted to limit my radiation exposure. I didn't elaborate. Opting out always entails some extra wait time, since they have to call an appropriate (= same sex) security officer over to do the pat down. (Yes, assuming that a same sex officer is appropriate is a heterosexist assumption, but I don't heckle them about that.) At first the pat down was quick and efficient but brusk, as if I was a trouble-maker for opting out. More recently it's been highly professional in that the officer explained each step before doing it - which didn't take noticeably longer. Last time I was asked if there was anything she should be aware of in the pat down - sensitive spots or unusual anatomy. I said I had an ostomy appliance. She asked where. I pointed. She had me hold my hand over that area as she did the pat down, then she did a wipe scan of my hand. Another officer asked if they had to do a wipe scan of the appliance itself or have me strip down in a separate room. She said no and explained why to him. I used to find many TSA folks insensitive. I think they've received some training over the years now. I wish they were being better treated, especially regarding their own radiation exposure. I find that travel is not a hassle as long as I: 1) get to the airport in good time, 2) smile (and ye will be smiled back at), 3) relax into my zen fatalist state (I got here on time, I did my bit, now it's up to the airline and no longer my problem - eventually, I will get where I need to be).

[snapdragen]

I took my post out -- it was bothering me last night. I'll move it to a more appropriate spot.

:)