Female Specific Bike Saddle

[KTK]

This is my first time posting on a cycling forum. I am currently studying Product Design at a University in London and for my final project I am designing a road bicycle saddle that is specific to women rather than a male saddle that is adapted to women that are currently on the market.

Do you find your comfortable saddle comfortable?
What model of saddle do you have (if it is comfortable)?
If it is uncomfortable, where does it hurt most when you ride?
How long can you ride for before your saddle starts causing you discomfort?

Your feedback and comments would be greatly appreciated! I would like to create a saddle that all ages and sizes of women would find comfortable! The more feedback I can get from real women who have a passion for cycling, the better!

Thanks for reading and look forward to hearing from you!

[OakLeaf]

Read the threads on saddle fitting and get back to us. ;)

[KTK]

Thanks for getting back to me but I can't seem to find the thread for saddle fitting...where should I be looking?

Any comments on your opinions on your saddle or a saddle you would recommend would be really useful!

[Trek420]

And the entire section "favorite saddles" and "most hated saddles" (which are often the same saddle :rolleyes: ;):cool: :D) and read nearly everyone's footer.

Also a hearty welcome to TE.

[Cataboo]

Thanks for getting back to me but I can't seem to find the thread for saddle fitting...where should I be looking?

Any comments on your opinions on your saddle or a saddle you would recommend would be really useful!


Most of us in our signatures have a list of bikes with what saddles we use - and really, what you're going to find is that the mystical saddle you want to create that is okay for all women doesn't exist. Saddle fit is very personal, some prefer T shaped, some prefer pear shaped, some prefer a cut out, and definitely most of us prefer different widths. I can use almost any specialized saddle in a 155mm width, and can tolerate a 143 mm width. Without bike shorts, I'll ride a specialized ariel no problem. with bike shorts, it drives me nuts. The beginning of a bike season, I swap a specialized jett saddle on my road bikes - and within a month or so, I switch to the specialized ruby because I don't like padding. I've ridden like 300 miles in 5 days on the specialized ruby with only a reasonable amount of discomfort - bearable, but not terrible.

The type of bike shorts people are wearing varies for what saddles they like, wheter or not they're using body glide or chamois butter, or...

If you go to this section, it starts off with favorite saddles and most hated saddles. REad more and you'll find out more. Use the search function on this site - we've all spent however many years spouting what we find comfortable in a saddle on here, and regurgitating it for you 'cause you don't want to use the search is just gonna make people grumpy :) That's meant in the nicest possible way, of course.
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

[moonfroggy]

also do a search for sit bones! that can have a lot to do with what saddle is comfortable for what person

[KTK]

Thank you so much for this information... its really useful!

I totally understand that all women are different and I think this is the perfect place to find out women's opinions!!

I did try to search but I think I underestimated how large this forum is! Its huge! Really useful however and I will check out the suggested searches to find out recommendations and saddles to watch out for!

Thanks again for feedback!

[ny biker]

Thank you so much for this information... its really useful!

I totally understand that all women are different and I think this is the perfect place to find out women's opinions!!

I did try to search but I think I underestimated how large this forum is! Its huge! Really useful however and I will check out the suggested searches to find out recommendations and saddles to watch out for!

Thanks again for feedback!


Sometimes I find it useful to use google to search this forum. For example, putting "teamestrogen.com sit bones" in a google search will give you links to threads on measuring sit bones, among others.

[moonfroggy]

or a better way to use google to search would be

"sit bones" site:http://forums.teamestrogen.com

works great for any forum

[Catrin]

or a better way to use google to search would be

"sit bones" site:http://forums.teamestrogen.com

works great for any forum

Cool, I didn't know that Google could be used in this fashion :)

KTK, as others have indicated, there are a massive number of posts on this very topic. You will find that the very saddle that works fantastic for one woman, will cause sheer agony for another. Our butts are highly individual and they like what they like. For some women a "woman's specific saddle" doesn't work and a male/unisex saddle does.

I do not think that there will ever be "one" saddle that will work for women - our butts like what they like :)

[KTK]

thank you for the useful responses...

I think I threw you all with the title! The aim of my project is to look into designing a saddle that is specific to the female anatomy rather than a male saddle that has been adapted for women.

I am trying to start from scratch with women's anatomy in mind. Obviously through extensive research I know that every women (and man) are different! I would like to design a system or product to these requirements.

So if you were to start from nothing do you think the saddle for women would look like the saddle for men?

I have successfully searched through all the threads on saddle and it has been incredibly useful to my research.

Thanks again for comments!

[OakLeaf]

I'm not sure any of us really understands what you mean by a "system."

But if you've read the threads, you know that we haven't been able to formulate a good test for saddle shape (T vs. "pear" or wedge). We're stuck on trial and error there.

I'm inclined to think that there should be a formula based on spacing of the sit bones, Q-angle as approximated by spacing of the knees in a neutral standing position, and perhaps external upper thigh circumference. Possibly the distance between the ischia at some point anterior to the tuberosities could be a factor, too. Or the angle of the ischia, as approximated by measuring the distance between the ischial tuberosities and the pubic symphysis.

If you can come up with a test for saddle shape, that would help LOTS. Even a solid, well-documented conclusion whether fleshy parts affect whether a certain shape of saddle will work for an individual, or whether it's based on bony proportions alone, would be a great start.



PS: This site (http://www.wekeepyoucycling.com/en/e-lifesize.aspx) has life-size top views of a large selection of saddles from Selle Italia, Selle San Marco, Koobi, AX-Lightness and Selle SMP, so you won't have to find actual samples of each of those to measure, in those dimensions, at least. But for other saddles - and for vertical dimensions of those - I don't know a similar resource.

[Rebecca19804]

Hi KTK

Welcome to TE. You are in the right place: TE is absolutely the best source of information and advice about women's cycling issues.



I have successfully searched through all the threads on saddle and it has been incredibly useful to my research.


With respect - you first posted less than 24 hours ago.

When I first started reading all the saddle posts here on TE, it took me DAYS to get through them all. And I was pretty single-minded doing it and I'm sure neglected work, friends, family, errands, housework, in pursuit of every pearl of wisdom about saddle nirvana.

Then I spent WEEKS thinking about what I'd read, comparing my experience, going back and re-searching for posts by TE-ers "most like me"... mulling things over again... doing the online window shopping thing all over again with fresh TE-informed eyes...

All the while, thinking, thinking, and even then...

Frankly... you'll have to forgive me if I look a little askance at your references to "success" and "useful" after less than 1 day.

Don't know what your project deadline is but I suggest you keep reading and then come back, say, after Christmas.

Cataboo was not kidding about "grumpy". :(

Best regards

Rebecca

P.S. I've just had knee surgery and can't ride my bike. I hate my most beautiful saddle and am ambivalent, to differing degrees, about the ugly ones... frustration + very raw nerve here! But I do hate a lame cop-out.

[OakLeaf]

Methinks that a student of "product design" might be better served trying to design something that doesn't need to conform INTIMATELY to the human anatomy in order to function properly. :rolleyes:

But I'd still like to see you come up with a test for saddle shape.

[Trek420]

Don't know what your project deadline is but I suggest you keep reading and then come back, say, after Christmas.

Of what year? :D :rolleyes: ;) :p :) And then ... start reading Knott's posts on saddle fit.

[KnottedYet]

KTK - be sure to talk to some physiotherapists about bike saddles, especially any who work with pelvic problems (incontinence, pain, etc) Find some models of the pelvis, both male and female. Sit in on a cadaver study, if you can.

Skeletally and perineally you may find that men and women are more alike than you think. The difference is in proportions more than anything.

In my experience, women don't need a different *kind* of saddle than men, they just need one that fits their proportions properly.

Manufacturers are starting to get the idea that saddles should come in sizes, like shoes, which is great. More sizes, more variety in proportions and shapes, and a clear way of categorizing them; and I think the world will be a better place.

[Rebecca19804]

And then ... start reading Knott's posts on saddle fit.
+1. In fact, if there's a way of sorting search results by poster, make anything posted by KnottedYet on saddle fit top priority reading. The item she posted a few minutes ago is just the tip of the iceberg of her wisdom on this topic, IMO.

[Trek420]

The item she posted a few minutes ago is just the tip of the iceberg of her wisdom on this topic, IMO.

Yes, Knott is very wise. :D


Sit in on a cadaver study, if you can.

Is this a study of someone who died of saddle pain from a Bontrager? ;) "if only she had ridden a Brooks :("


More sizes, more variety in proportions and shapes, and a clear way of categorizing them; and I think the world will be a better place.

I think the world would be a better place if more LBS fit riders to a great saddle. There are many makes, models, shapes out there but too many riders are getting the wrong one for them. My perfect saddle is your implement of torture.

[Rebecca19804]

KTK

Great resource options suggested by Knott. I'm in London too and her post got me thinking -

See if you can get an interview with cycling specialists at Balance Performance Physiotherapy (www.balancephysio.com). They're a short walk from North Clapham tube station.

Another source of info might be Cyclefit in Covent Garden (www.cyclefit.co.uk). They're highly recommended amongst both men and women. Contact points have got to be major factors in what they do.

Cadavers... I'll leave it to you to sort out a source/access. :eek:

[OakLeaf]

Cadavers... I'll leave it to you to sort out a source/access. :eek:

/partial hijack

I went to one seminar about spinal anatomy where the lecturer had cadaver pieces. I learned an INCREDIBLE amount, just unbelievably more than I'd ever been able to understand from photographs or drawings. Even though I was still essentially looking at a two-dimensional image on the overhead projector, the fact that the lecturer could manipulate the chunks in three dimensions was ENORMOUSLY instructive.

I sat in the back of the lecture hall with probably 300+ people between me and the overhead projector. That was as close as I wanted to be to the trays full of vertebrae, ligaments, nerves and muscles. :p:eek:

But anyway, as someone coming from a profession where a knowledge of anatomy is secondary, I heartily second the recommendation.

/hijack



Yes, Knott is very wise. :D

+a milliion!


Is this a study of someone who died of saddle pain from a Bontrager? ;) "if only she had ridden a Brooks :("

:D :D :D I know there must be women who've had to have 130 mm saddles surgically extracted from their nether parts. :p

[Cataboo]

Oh, it's an interesting question - how would we design a saddle (or a system of saddles, which I think she means, ones that come in various sizes, shapes) for women if we could start from scratch?

I'm having a hard time thinking outside the box from the saddle that we're all used to, to something completely different.

Something that could be nice is a system that has more colors - maybe with removable covers. I know, having a saddle that is the color you want is kind of a luxury that most of us don't get to have.

I know that you can tune a brooks saddle for how tight it is - Can we make a saddle that has an adjustable cut out - There's room in the nose for a huge cut out say, but if you don't need one or don't need much of one, you can add something into it. Maybe a saddle that say it starts off pear shaped, but if you tighten something at various points, you can adjust the shape into a T shape - But having multiple of these so that you can pretty much morph the saddle into the shape you want. You could do something similar with the sitbone section - then the removable covers would be leather or whatever that you shrink down to cover the saddle shape that works for you. This of course won't come lightly, and most of us are reasonable weight weenies - putting a 5 lb saddle on a 16 lb bike makes no sense. So there could be a prototype saddle that you borrow from the local bike shop to make these sorts of adjustments till you find the perfect shape, and then a custom saddle could be made from that.


Of course - a lot of women ride brooks saddles because it's a leather system that they break into the contours of their body - But if KTK could design a system that basically makes a custom saddle that is perfect for whoever orders it - say by taking a mold of the nether regions or a prototype very adjustable saddle, that would improve on the brooks system...

But whether or not custom saddles are cost prohibitive... How much are most of us willing to spend on the perfect saddle? Brooks and high end saddles are probably about $120... Is $200 a fair price for absolutely custom? And is that a profitable model?


That's the best ideas I can come up with. I think.

[OakLeaf]

Is $200 a fair price for absolutely custom? And is that a profitable model?

Considering the proliferation of 3-D printing these days, I think it's a viable model, but it might have to be just a little higher (even with a plastic shell and cromoly rails).

Custom foot orthotics done by computerized mapping and printing, with minimal expertise on the part of the person doing the scans, are around $250 a pair. I'm not sure how much profit is in there. Maybe it's just a market-determined price point with a lot of profit built in, so that saddles could be sold at the same price point. It's also true that 3-D printing has come a long way since that price point was set.

If there was any padding in the cover, that might add more expense, since the placement of the padding would have to be customized to the shell shape.

Custom carbon shells and/or carbon or titanium rails obviously would be a great deal more expensive, since off-the-shelf carbon saddles are already in that range.

But yeah - I agree it's at least a possibility.

[Cataboo]

I know enough men that complain bitterly about their saddles that I think men would be quite willing to spring for a custom saddle system... Which would give it a broader market.

[Rebecca19804]

Considering the proliferation of 3-D printing these days, I think it's a viable model, but it might have to be just a little higher (even with a plastic shell and cromoly rails).

Custom foot orthotics done by computerized mapping and printing, with minimal expertise on the part of the person doing the scans, are around $250 a pair. I'm not sure how much profit is in there. Maybe it's just a market-determined price point with a lot of profit built in, so that saddles could be sold at the same price point. It's also true that 3-D printing has come a long way since that price point was set.

Good point. In the past 12 years, I've had two sets of orthotics made up. Probably should have had them re-done at closer intervals. Yes, not cheap but as my mother says 'you only get one pair of feet'. :D


How much are most of us willing to spend on the perfect saddle? Brooks and high end saddles are probably about $120... Is $200 a fair price for absolutely custom? And is that a profitable model?

When you consider how many saddles many of us have bought over the years, USD200-250 for a custom one sounds damn reasonable to me!

(anyone else bought more than one Brooks? :eek: :( :rolleyes:)

[KnottedYet]

There is a company that makes custom saddles in just that way.

They are carbon fiber, custom molded, and I don't remember how much they cost... but I do remember that they were not cheap.

I can't do a search at the moment, but if someone wants to throw the details at Google, they can probably find it easily.

[OakLeaf]

http://www.sellelogica.com/

$575 unpadded, $10 or $20 extra for padding.

$385/$395 for off-the-shelf saddles based on "the average of all the custom saddles we have created" [which sounds like an automatic torture device to me].

We've obviously talked about this before - since the link showed I'd clicked on it recently. If I had a longer attention span I might have a better memory, too. :rolleyes:

One thing their website doesn't feature is testimonials. Not that I put a lot of stock in those anyway, but I think before I'd drop close to $600 on something non-returnable and non-resellable, I'd want to know if other people liked theirs...


Wait, I've got a slogan for them. "The price of three Brooks, the weight of a third of one." ;)

[dianne_1234]

There's also Cedesius custom saddles:

http://www.cedesius.com/aboutus.html

Their Design Science section of their web site clearly isn't written by a scientist, but on many points it sounds like they "get it".

[OakLeaf]

There's also Cedesius custom saddles:

I know it sounds nit-picky, but I have a hard time being impressed by a website that has a spelling or punctuation error in nearly every sentence. If they pay so little attention to detail in their marketing materials, why should I believe they give any attention to detail in their product?

[Trek420]

I know it sounds nit-picky, but I have a hard time being impressed by a website that has a spelling or punctuation error in nearly every sentence. If they pay so little attention to detail in their marketing materials, why should I believe they give any attention to detail in their product?

From the first paragraph: And along with it's own research done with custom molding, this knowledge is used to create a superior anatomical fit to maximize comfort, health concerns, and performance.

Step right up ladies and gentlemen, count the errors. First correct entry wins the prize! :D

[blackhillsbiker]

I'd love to do a poll to find out how many people first discovered TE when searching for information on saddles/woman-specific saddle issues or bike fit.

Deb

[Trek420]

Good idea for a thread. "How did you find TE?". I don't remember :o ;)

[OakLeaf]

I don't remember, either. :p

[moonfroggy]

i also have no clue

[Cataboo]

[QUOTE=blackhillsbiker;543450]I'd love to do a poll to find out how many people first discovered TE when searching for information on saddles/woman-specific saddle issues or bike fit.

Deb[/QUOTE

I was googling around looking for an ibex shak hoodie - I ran across the wool weenies thread and did the ... okay I love wool, but holy crap 60 pages of wool?

I forgot about the forum, then a year or so later I started biking and ended up here looking for saddle help. Or maybe wrist help. I'm pretty sure it was saddles. This time I stayed :) I guess I could go back and try to figure out what the first thread I posted in was.