The Joys of Homeownership

[indysteel]

When my DH and I bought our home, we knew it needed new windows. Twenty-five of them. The house was built in 1928 and few of the windows are even functional anymore in that they don't open. We got our first estimate today.

$19,000.

:eek:

I anticipated $15k, so while the number isn't a total shock, it's still a lot to swallow. I'll be interested to see what our other estimates look like and, of course, what the final bill will be.

I keep thinking how nice it will be to have windows that look nice, actually open and are energy efficient. I doubt it'll be $19k worth of nice, however. :rolleyes:

[Roadtrip]

Ouch.. I have an older, about that same age, with old windows... just not as many of them. What kind of windows are they replacing with? Wood or vinyl?

Good luck with other bids. Hopefully it will be less then the 19k.

[Becky]

Sounds about right... We did half as many 3 years ago, to the tune of $7k. Our heating oil bill plummeted and the whole house is so much quieter now, so it's been well worth it.

Don't forget about the tax credits that are available this year... The tax credit made our bill a lot easier to swallow.

[indysteel]

Roadtrip, I think we're considering windows that are vinyl on their exterior side and wood on the interior side. Our existing windows are a "Prairie" style, and we'd really like to retain that look, which I assume costs a bit more.

Oh well; I'm trying to be Zen about this (the state of mind, not the TE member :) ). I learned with my first home that while things like a new roof aren't "fun," they provide a tremendous peace of mind. We're very aggressive savers, so we have that going for us, too.

[Selkie]

We had our windows replaced in April and paid about that much (house was built in 1940 and the old windows were vinyl "gas company" specials). The new windows are wood -- aluminum clad outside and pre-treated wood inside, so we had to only paint the inside. We got casement style, with I love, but no grids so it's just clear glass. Two windows are art glass in a mission style (were extra) and they are functioning casement windows. Bathroom window is awning style with frosted glass for privacy. It was worth every penny, not only in terms of energy savings but also noise reduction. And don't forget the TAX CREDIT!!! Don't go cheap on the windows---they are an investment and good windows will increase the resale value of your home. One tip: make sure whoever installs them is experienced and skilled.

[Irulan]

See if you can get any energy credits from your local utility... we got 30% back on the cost of our windows. If we had paid for the install, it would have been a credit on both materials AND labor.

We are doing vinyl double panes with high E glass. It does make a huge difference in certain rooms. The funny thing is, the more energy efficiency improvements we do, the more we realize that the house has so many leaks, poorly insulated areas and so on. DH says that no house can be airtight.

More and more, I am grateful that DH is a pretty handy dude. We do all our own remodeling, one project at a time. Our only costs are materials. Mostly, we are just too cheap to choke down contractor costs on things we have the skills to do. The time frame is different of course. We've done the windows three or four at a time, usually over a weekend, and then a season or year later we do some more. We only have the two that require renting scaffolding to do. Granted, it's not all done at once, but the thousands of dollars we aren't paying someone else we get to use for fun stuff.

While some home projects require a lot of skill, a whole lot don't, they just require some time. As for know how, there's a lot of info online.

[Irulan]

One tip: make sure whoever installs them is experienced and skilled.
this made me laugh as I just wrote up this big thing about how we do everything ourselves. There are a lot of lousy contractors out there so be sure to get good referrals. I know for a fact that DH pays way more attention to detail and doing things right than some guys so I have no doubts that he's doing the job right. I do know how lucky I am, though!***


***I never realized how lucky until I found out that a relative won't even do any painting for fear of screwing things up.

[ACG]

Sadly 19k sounds about right. My house built was built in 1937 the previous owners bought it and upgraded it. Luckily the did it the right way and kept the style and integrity of the house in tact. Double paned windows will keep the noise out and keep your house warm/cold.

As a side not I had to have a new sewer put in. Mine was clay and had been comprimised by 50 plus years of tree roots. Now the sewer is made of some kind of high end material that will outlast me.

I love owning a home, it's a nice hobby when you can't bike!

[jessmarimba]

I'll trade my new windows for your old ones...my house was built in 1906 and I have the new high energy vinyl ones. They don't make much difference in the heat bill, since my house isn't insulated anyway. Plus they don't open down from the top, which would allow the hot air upstairs in the summer to escape along the ceiling line. And they put the new casing inside the old wooden casing and cold air leaks around the sides of the windows in the winter. At least they are really easy to open and close.

I think they were installed to improve the appeal of the house when it was put on the market.

I guess the grass is always greener, hmm?

[Irulan]

I'll trade my new windows for your old ones...my house was built in 1906 and I have the new high energy vinyl ones. They don't make much difference in the heat bill, since my house isn't insulated anyway. Plus they don't open down from the top, which would allow the hot air upstairs in the summer to escape along the ceiling line. And they put the new casing inside the old wooden casing and cold air leaks around the sides of the windows in the winter. At least they are really easy to open and close.

I think they were installed to improve the appeal of the house when it was put on the market.

I guess the grass is always greener, hmm?

I wonder about the quality of the window and or the installation. I have seen so much crappy "upgrade" work done just for market. Naturally the sellers don't have long term value in mind for the nature of the product or installation, just whether it looks good for the sale.

[ny biker]

One of the benefits of living in a small 1BR condo is that I only had 5 windows to replace. I was able to get them all done for $2500. No real impact on my heating bill due to poor insulation and an old inefficient heat pump, but it's so nice to be able to (a) actually open the windows and (b) not have to use a stick to keep them open.

And the whole tilt-in-to-clean thing is genius.

[Eden]

I'm glad I live in Seattle... It rarely gets too cold here, so I'm not worried so much about the windows keeping too much cold out....

I love my old original windows (1912 craftsman), even though some of them are painted shut. If I were really enterprising I could probably un-stick all of them.

We did have to replace 4 windows upstairs, because a previous owner's remodeling efforts left some very ugly vinyl windows that were installed upside down... To get architecturally appropriate ones was expensive....we had them semi custom made though so that we could get real divided lights and wood throughout.

[indysteel]

We're getting quotes from contractors we vetted through Angie's List. That's no guarantee, but it helps. I'll look into any local credits; that could certainly take the sting out of it.

On the upside, DH is really handy (he's an electrical engineer). He does most of our electrical, plumbing and carpentry, plus most of our car repairs. So, we save a lot of money that way. I don't think he feels comfortable with the windows though, although in truth, I'm not sure he even considered it.

Assuming the windows are done right, I do trust it'll be worth it in the long run. Every big ticket on a house is difficult to stomach. Like I said, we're aggressive savers, and we specifically saved for this. It's just the way it goes. Next year, it's the furnace and A/C. Yay!

[Irulan]

We're getting quotes from contractors we vetted through Angie's List. That's no guarantee, but it helps. I'll look into any local credits; that could certainly take the sting out of it.

On the upside, DH is really handy (he's an electrical engineer). He does most of our electrical, plumbing and carpentry, plus most of our car repairs. So, we save a lot of money that way. I don't think he feels comfortable with the windows though, although in truth, I'm not sure he even considered it.

Assuming the windows are done right, I do trust it'll be worth it in the long run. Every big ticket on a house is difficult to stomach. Like I said, we're aggressive savers, and we specifically saved for this. It's just the way it goes. Next year, it's the furnace and A/C. Yay!

If he has done all that, windows should be easy. It's just basic carpentry, making sure the new one fits in the hole of the old one, or making adjustments. Once you pull off the trim, there's usually just a few nails holding them in under any weather sealing. Put the new one in, level it, nail it in, weather seal it, put the trim back on and ta-da! Of course there's a little more to it than that but that is the jist of it.

There's always the time/money equation too, that is certainly a factor.

[Becky]

Energy efficiency upgrades tax credit info: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index

We've claimed 2 of these so far in the past ~3 years- the windows, and a replacement door. We're hoping to claim a biomass stove credit as well this year.

[indysteel]

Thanks for the information, Irulan and Becky. I'll ask him whether he's considered doing the work himself. He's normally more than willing to take on projects. I'm usually the one arguing that our time is worth something, too, but I've changed my mindset about that a lot since we moved in together as I've gained more confidence in his ability to do the work.

He's checking with our local utilities about any incentives they offer. Otherwise, we should qualify for the federal tax credit and a state credit of $1,000. That'll help for sure.

[Roadtrip]

If you do go on your own (DIY), just make sure you order the right type of window... most come in a new construction and retrofit versions. The retrofit ones are designed to fit into framing per your measurements of the window openings.

Some government programs allow you to deduct a percentage of the labor cost as well, so that could factor into the overall cost. All it takes is one goof to really negate that DIY savings if the difference isn't substantial.

[Irulan]

If you do go on your own (DIY), just make sure you order the right type of window... most come in a new construction and retrofit versions. The retrofit ones are designed to fit into framing per your measurements of the window openings.

Some government programs allow you to deduct a percentage of the labor cost as well, so that could factor into the overall cost. All it takes is one goof to really negate that DIY savings if the difference isn't substantial.

No program I know of lets the homeowner deduct DIY costs,(much to our annoyance) but you can count contractor labor. The forms you submit require documentation such as a receipt or invoice, and a copy of the energy ratings sticker and dimension sticker. You do need to be careful, some programs require that you be above a certain R rating before you get anything back.

[Roadtrip]

No program I know of lets the homeowner deduct DIY costs,(much to our annoyance) but you can count contractor labor. The forms you submit require documentation such as a receipt or invoice, and a copy of the energy ratings sticker and dimension sticker. You do need to be careful, some programs require that you be above a certain R rating before you get anything back.

Right, which is why if you DYI-It you can't get a tax credit for your labor, but if you pay a contractor you can, so when figuring overall costs it could make a difference.

We added insulation to our attic this year and with tax credits it ended up being the same cost as materials alone at the local hardware store and we didn't have to spend time up in the HOT attic with itchy insulation.

[withm]

Yeah - there's a tax credit on windows up to 30% - OR $1,500 max. Still it's a help for renovations on your primary home. The credit is not available for improvements to a 2nd or vacation home.

$19,000, while a lot of money seems about right. Higher quality Pella or Andersen windows would probablly run more like $25,000-30,000.

From the Energy Star website:
Qualifying products purchased between January 1, 2009 and December 31, 2010 are eligible for a tax credit equal to 30 percent of the product cost. Installation is not included; be sure to obtain an itemized invoice from your retailer or installer. The maximum amount of homeowner credit for all improvements combined (including roofing, insulation, HVAC, and water heaters) is $1,500 during 2009 and 2010.

[limewave]

WoW! I did not know replacing windows would be that much money!
I think our house was built in 1940's. And it needs new windows. We did a new roof last year.

Our strategy, thus far, is do a window or two a year. Thankfully, DH is very handy and does an excellent job with this kind of work. When we did DD's nursery a few years back, we went ahead and did new windows in her room. We did the same when we did DS's room. This year we're hoping to replace the window in the kitchen and one in the bathroom.

[Irulan]

WoW! I did not know replacing windows would be that much money!
I think our house was built in 1940's. And it needs new windows. We did a new roof last year.

Our strategy, thus far, is do a window or two a year. Thankfully, DH is very handy and does an excellent job with this kind of work. When we did DD's nursery a few years back, we went ahead and did new windows in her room. We did the same when we did DS's room. This year we're hoping to replace the window in the kitchen and one in the bathroom.


(uh oh, I was looking for "like" button. I think I have a problem)

Count your blessings. I play chief gopher with all these projects: making sandwiches, running out for parts, etc while he does the heavy work. So far we've done two bathrooms, a roof, a new deck, about 1800 ft-sq of hardwood laminate, and doors and windows. I think part of the "problem" is that DH just can't sit still. :p Every time we look at bringing a contractor in, we do the math on hiring someon versus losing a couple of weekends and the lost weekends win.

..and dealing with contractors... we WERE going to have one do the second bathroom just for time reasons. We contacted several, got no return calls, and got one return call NINE MONTHS later. "You still want your bathroom done?". Jeez.

[jessmarimba]

I wonder about the quality of the window and or the installation. I have seen so much crappy "upgrade" work done just for market. Naturally the sellers don't have long term value in mind for the nature of the product or installation, just whether it looks good for the sale.

Yeah, I wonder about both too. Good example as to why you should make sure a contractor comes well-recommended! I had forgotten about Angie's List so I'm glad it was brought up again.

But I think the biggest issue with my house is that with no insulation, it doesn't matter what the windows are made of. I kind of wish I had found the old ones on the property so at least the house could be authentically cold. :)

[Crankin]

It's worth the $. We replaced 33 (yes, 33) windows on our 1982 contemporary home with 4 levels. All odd shapes and the house is not that well insulated. The savings on our energy bills have been enormous. Even on days when it is close to 100 degrees, our AC does not go on until at least noon time. It's much warmer in the winter, too. Before, we had issues with some rooms being freezing and some being too hot and that's gone away.
I have learned in home repairs, yes, you should get several estimates, but generally, you get what you pay for. Obviously, previous owners of my house did not subscribe to this theory.

[Chicken Little]

Crankin- I did my own windows this year. Bought the Pella's at Lowes, and a decent sawz-all. The first one one the learner- I started in the back of the house, after that, we whipped through them. You or you and your husband can whip through those in no time. Do two a weekend, and open a bottle of Pinot. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. 22 windows total.

[indysteel]

The quote we got was for Pellas. Another guy was out this afternoon, but we have,kt gotten his numbers yet. DH didn't like him much, as he was very "slick." He's rated well on Angie's List however.

I've brought up doing it DIY with DH, and I do think the idea is growing on him. He talked to another engineer he works with who did his own windows and he agreed to help--at least semi-seriously. So, we'll see.

[Irulan]

Here's the caveat for the DIY-ers.
You never know what you'll find underneath. :eek:

What looks perfectly fine on the surface can be a nightmare underneath. Case in point: Windows should be nailed into the the framing, right? Not at our house. The cheap-*** contractor who built our place used liquid nails for a lot of stuff, including the windows. So, no nails to take out. The problem is that liquid nails works so well that we couldn't use normal methods ( even a crow bar) to remove the old windows. What we ended up having to do what break the glass out of each window frame, and THEN use the crowbar to pry the aluminum window frame off the wooden framing one side of the rectangle at a time. Talk about a pain....We find fun stuff like this all the time; we end up redo a whole lot of stuff that was just done plain wrong or uber-cheap.

[Crankin]

DH does most home repair himself... very handy. But he would never do windows. My house has several roof lines and is extremely high. Besides, we are at the point where we don't want to spend too much time doing this stuff, or have long drawn out projects. After totally remodeling 2 bathrooms, fixing a huge drainage problem, the heating, and doing the landscaping, just the upkeep is enough. We had wonderful contractors who remodeled our kitchen and 2 other baths, as well as a painter. We took this year off, after 5 years of being here. Now, our driveway needs to be re-done, both for safety and convenience issues. Another 20K.
Oh, and for anyone who is thinking of windows, don't get Anderson. Just my opinion, but any company who will not talk to one spouse (they require both to be there at the consultation) is just plain sexist or weird. I could have cared less about which windows we got and I generally know nothing about any house stuff, so what would it have mattered? My friend who is really into design, wanted them to come and give her a quote and they wouldn't come without her DH being there. Stupid.

[OakLeaf]

any company who will not talk to one spouse (they require both to be there at the consultation) is just plain sexist or weird. I could have cared less about which windows we got and I generally know nothing about any house stuff, so what would it have mattered? My friend who is really into design, wanted them to come and give her a quote and they wouldn't come without her DH being there. Stupid.

Because if there's an issue, a contractor gets a lien against the house, and there are potential issues if all owners of the property (including a spouse who isn't on the deed but has a dower interest) didn't consent to the work.

Now, if they won't talk to a wife alone, but they will talk to a husband alone, that's a whole 'nother thing.

[soprano]

One of the benefits of living in a small 1BR condo is that I only had 5 windows to replace. I was able to get them all done for $2500.

My husband and I bought a 720 sq ft house last year, thinking about stuff like this. There's so much to love about a small house.

[Irulan]

Oh, and for anyone who is thinking of windows, don't get Anderson. Just my opinion, but any company who will not talk to one spouse (they require both to be there at the consultation) is just plain sexist or weird. I could have cared less about which windows we got and I generally know nothing about any house stuff, so what would it have mattered? My friend who is really into design, wanted them to come and give her a quote and they wouldn't come without her DH being there. Stupid.

Oakleaf:

Because if there's an issue, a contractor gets a lien against the house, and there are potential issues if all owners of the property (including a spouse who isn't on the deed but has a dower interest) didn't consent to the work.

Uh, she said consultation (ie, sales pitch) not the signing of the contract.

[Crankin]

Yes, both spouses had to be there for even the initial sales pitch. I guess I understand the lawsuit thing, Oakleaf, but no other major company had this policy. Well, we ended up using another company, anyway.

[Zen]

I would love to have such a problem.
i have to be out of my house by the end of October and I have no idea where I'll go.

[indysteel]

I would love to have such a problem.
i have to be out of my house by the end of October and I have no idea where I'll go.

(((((())))) I'm so sorry, Zen.

[ridebikeme]

Like you many of you, I have an older house as well.(built in 1900) I also need to replace windows, which total out to 25. I have worked construction in the past, do most of my own work, but as Irulan mentioned... you never know what is under what you are looking for. I've installed lots of windows and doors, but always new construction. I had a door installed in the shop this spring, and decided that I would hire a contractor. I'm VERY glad that I did, because as you can imagine, there were underlying issues. I am definitely support DIY projects, but I also know that there are things that I will never do in the house again... and I would prefer to know that it was done correctly and the contractor has the experience to look ahead and see what potential problems could crop up. Yes, it means that I will spend more money than my DIY project, but the piece of mind knowing that it was done correctly and that I have someone who guarantees their work... well that's priceless!:cool:

And lastly, the lowest bid is NOT always your best option. I have seen way too many people take the low bid and have more problems down the road. Check out the contractors background/history and make your decision based on that and not a number. I have seen quite a few people here take the low bid, get someone who decided that in this recession that they could make some money AND all of them had problems very quickly and in the long run, they spent WAY more than the highest bid .

On another note, Zen good luck with finding another home!!

[Trek420]

(((((())))) i'm so sorry, zen.

+1. :(

[withm]

It's good to interview 2-3 contractors, but the best thing to do is to select your contractor based upon recommendations, and your belief that you and the contractor can work together on your project. By that I mean that you have a good working rapport with the contractor (not that you will strap on a tool belt and be working side by side) and have chosen a contractor that will work with you, who can tactfully communicate with you if your project is feasible or not, suggest alternative products/materials/methods that may either enhance your project or even save you some money. While price is certainly a consideration, I'd prefer to have a reputable, knowledgeable contractor working in my house who can deal with unexpected surprises when you start removing windows. You really can't imagine what a few years of leaks, mold, termites, or other insects, can do to the inside your walls.

As an aside, some of you have mentioned that live in older houses. The EPA has not done such a good job of communicating to homeowners the hazards of Lead Paint and the new Lead Paint rules which went into effect in April, and will be enforced starting in October. Houses built before 1978 are likely to have lead paint present, especially trims around the windows. The older the house, the more likely that it is there. Contractors are now required by law to provide the homeowner with a booklet that explains the lead paint hazards, to test for the presence of lead paint in the work areas, and if lead paint is present they are required to employ certain EPA designated lead-safe work practices designed to minimize and contain the lead dust generated in the course of the renovation in order to protect both the homeowner and the workers from the hazards of lead dust. Contractors who fail to do so are subject to EPA fines of up to $37,500 per day for non-compliance.

So, if you live in an older home and your contractor is not doing any of these things, you may have hired either an ignorant, or unscrupulous, contractor who is putting your family (and the families of his workers) at risk, and probably cutting other corners as well.

[tulip]

I have a 71-year old house with the original windows. It's a small house; there are 11 windows. I'm keeping them because they add so much to the character of the house. Replacement windows would just ruin the character that these windows provide.

When I bought the house two years ago, only a couple of the windows were operational. Last year I had a professional historic window repairman come and replace the cords and sash weights as needed. He unstuck them, because they had been painted shut over the years. There are still two windows that he needs to do some heavy duty repair to. I hope to have him do that this fall.

I am getting storm windows and full screens. Storm windows are just as efficient as replacement windows, and they don't result in a bunch of windows being thrown away. Full screens work well with double hung windows because you can open both the top and the bottom. Warm air will flow out the top, and cool air will flow in the bottom. This is particularly effective with ceiling fans. So far, I've used half window screens, but now that my house is nearly painted, I will get full screens for next spring and summer.

I have a wood stove, and it's important to have some air circulation when heating with a wood stove. You don't want a really tight house. In fact, having really tight houses can result in alot of problems with mold, particularly if your air conditioner is not sized correctly for the square footage of your home. Small houses can be a problem because there are few central A/C systems that are designed for small houses; most systems are too big. Mini split systems are good, but I couldn't go that route because it would have involved removal of alot of asbestos siding. Asbestos siding is best kept in place.

So that's all to say that there are alternatives to replacing windows, particularly in houses that have alot of character because of the windows.

Best of luck with your window work. My house has been alot of work, but I'm almost there and it's been worth the effort and expense.