My weird toes

[nscrbug]

So it seems that I have some jacked-up toes (I've included some lovely pics). My 4th and 5th toes (on both feet) have a prominent inward bend to them. I believe this to be one of the major factors resulting in chronic toe discomfort...especially during running. I'm not really sure how to characterize the discomfort. It generally starts with a tingling sensation, which then turns into a stabbing pain/cramp feeling. At its worst, it literally feels like my toe is broken. Needless to say, this has really had an effect on my running...right down to the shoe-buying process. I cannot seem to find any shoe that will allow me to run pain-free for more than 15 minutes. It's been very frustrating.

I did a Google search on "claw toe" and "mallet toe", and I'm not sure if either one of these conditions would apply to me. The toes definitely have a downward curve to them, but they also curve in towards the 3rd toe...so I'm not sure what to make of all this. My podiatrist never mentioned anything unusual about my toes, even though I did point it out to him and told him that it is a source of discomfort. He ruled out neuromas, but had me try custom orthotics with a built-in metatarsal pad...they did not help. Infact, they made the problem worse, so I opted to quit wearing them.

Are there any feet experts out there (KnottedYet??) that can identify what is going on with my crazy toes??? And what (IF anything), I can do about it? Thanks a million!!!

Linda

Here are the pics of my feet (please pardon the BAD nail polish job!)....http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1761/feettop.jpghttp://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8099/feetfront.jpg

[Veronica]

Hammer toes.

Mine are like that too, but with me it's genetic.

Veronica

[nscrbug]

Hammer toes, huh? I did look into that, but found that it was usually more common in the 2nd toe,so I thought that perhaps that wasn't it.

So...what are some of the ways you deal with this? Which of your toes are affected? Do you get any pain or tingling, particularly when running?

[Veronica]

The only time I've seen a podiatrist was 20 years ago when I had a bunion removed and she called them hammer toes.

Mine affects my 3 little toes on both feet. They have always been like that and they don't hurt. Sorry, I can't help you there. :(

Veronica

[Aggie_Ama]

Hammer toes. On my left foot my third toe curves towards the 4th toe so my 4th toe tucks under the crooked toe. My mom said my Great Grandma had the same toes so apparently I have genetically funky toes.

Are you getting your shoes from a running shop? The one I went to was very good at identifying issues, they completely alleviated pains I was having.

[nscrbug]

Hammer toes. On my left foot my third toe curves towards the 4th toe so my 4th toe tucks under the crooked toe. My mom said my Great Grandma had the same toes so apparently I have genetically funky toes.

Are you getting your shoes from a running shop? The one I went to was very good at identifying issues, they completely alleviated pains I was having.

Oh yes, absolutely! Infact, I can only buy shoes from a specialty running store because I wear a size 10.5 and sporting good stores (Sport's Authority, ****'s, etc.) don't carry half sizes beyond size 10. At the current moment, I'm alternating between a pair of Nike Structure Triax 13's and a pair of Nike Free Run+. I only wear the Nike Free Run on short (1-2 mile) runs. But I still feel the toe discomfort regardless of which shoe I wear. Prior to what I'm wearing now, I was wearing Mizuno Wave Inspire 6, Adidas Supernova Sequence 3, and Brooks Adrenaline GTS 10...toe pain with all of those. It must have something to do with the way those toes are curving inward and downward, and having pressure put on them. It sucks...because I've tried SO many different shoes and end up returning most of them! I swear, running shoe stores must cringe, when they see me walking in.

Just out of curiosity, what shoes did your running store put you in?

Linda

[Veronica]

I'm wearing Saucony ProGrid Stabil CS running shoes.

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

I was in the Wave Inspire also and they put a lot of pressure on my small toe joint (incipient tailor's bunions). I quit wearing Adidas several pairs ago because they're just too narrow up front.

Believe it or not, I'm in Nikes now.

Zoom Structure Triax 13, 10-1/2 Wide. I've never seen a shoe with such a square toe box, and yet the heels are narrow enough that they don't slip with my duck feet.

Try 'em out.

[KnottedYet]

Ahhh, the joys of Irish feet (aka Greek feet, Morton's feet, etc.)

Somewhere on TE there is a looooong thread about this foot type.

It's not your foot's fault, it's that 90% of us have "Egyptian" feet, and shoes were designed for OUR feet, not yours.

So you get bunions, bunionettes (tailor's bunions), hammer toes, etc.

(BTW, I did talk to a biomechanist at a seminar once about Irish feet and the misery inflicted upon them by shoes. He agreed that I could become a millionaire if I were just to design running shoes for Irish feet. And he didn't know of any out on the market at the time.)

[shootingstar]

I have feet like yours ncrsbug.

I've been wearing custom orthotics past 15 years. It works for me.

I'm not totally convinced for me it's hereditary because my 5 siblings don't have feet like mine,..ie. with hammer toes, etc. None of my sisters wear narrow shoes and high arch stiletto heels. I know them.... :p

Honest, some of it is due to improperly fitted shoes earlier in life..for me. That's my opinion. i know my parents made a conscious effort to buy shoes for the younger ones that were wide enough for fit around the toe box.

[Aggie_Ama]

Just out of curiosity, what shoes did your running store put you in?

Linda

I wear the Brooks Adrenaline GTS 10. I was having knee, arch pain and achilles issues. No toes issues even though I do have odd toes. I have a slight hammer toe on each foot but it is very mild. The bigger problem I have is the crooked toes but running isn't a problem, cycling is though.

[NbyNW]

Ahhh, the joys of Irish feet (aka Greek feet, Morton's feet, etc.)
(BTW, I did talk to a biomechanist at a seminar once about Irish feet and the misery inflicted upon them by shoes. He agreed that I could become a millionaire if I were just to design running shoes for Irish feet. And he didn't know of any out on the market at the time.)

Knott, you really should do this! And then after a few years, license it to a big shoe company.

nscrbug, my fourth toe on both feet look like yours. They have only caused pain if I wore shoes with too small a toe box, or at the end of last season I got some tightness/inflammation, which I took care of in the off-season with some exercises that Knott posted on another thread for fallen met arch, plus getting my fit checked (one of my cleats had slipped out of place!) and working on my pedal stroke/form. Oh, and I also started putting my custom orthotics in my cycling shoes, where I had previously been using Superfeet.

For running shoes I wear Brooks Ariel, in a D width. The toe box has plenty of vertical room for a higher volume foot, and then I just lace it appropriately to provide stability around my heel. The Ariel is a very stable shoe for pronators, and I started using them when I was doing PT for my hip/back. Probably for my next shoe I will look into other Brooks models that hopefully have a similar fit, as I want to see if I can do without this level of support.

I have found my experience with podiatrists to be hit-and-miss. I had one guy propose to fix my hammertoes by removing the middle bone in each toe. :eek: No thank you! I was outta there so fast . . .

[nscrbug]

I was in the Wave Inspire also and they put a lot of pressure on my small toe joint (incipient tailor's bunions). I quit wearing Adidas several pairs ago because they're just too narrow up front.

Believe it or not, I'm in Nikes now.

Zoom Structure Triax 13, 10-1/2 Wide. I've never seen a shoe with such a square toe box, and yet the heels are narrow enough that they don't slip with my duck feet.

Try 'em out.

Yup...that is what I'm currently wearing...but in a size 11. Of all the shoes I've tried recently, they give me the least amount of toe pain...but it is still there. I alternate between the Triax and the Nike Free Run+. Surprisingly, the Nike Free doesn't feel too bad considering that it's a very minimalist shoe...something I thought I would never be able to wear. But I still do get the toe pain/discomfort, even in both Nike shoes.

[nscrbug]

I'm wearing Saucony ProGrid Stabil CS running shoes.

Veronica

Ahhh...that's a motion control shoe, which are not for me. Thanks.

[nscrbug]

I wear the Brooks Adrenaline GTS 10. I was having knee, arch pain and achilles issues. No toes issues even though I do have odd toes. I have a slight hammer toe on each foot but it is very mild. The bigger problem I have is the crooked toes but running isn't a problem, cycling is though.

Yup...I tried the Brooks Adrenaline 10, but sadly they don't work for me.

[KnottedYet]

For my Irish footed folks who are having a very hard time with shoes, I suggest they try running in Chaco Z1 or Z2 sandals.

[Veronica]

Ahhh...that's a motion control shoe, which are not for me. Thanks.

Yep - my lower body is a disaster. :p hammertoes, bunions, overpronation, 1 leg shorter than the other... but lucky me, none of that hurts - usually!

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

Yup...that is what I'm currently wearing...but in a size 11.


Is that an 11 Wide? They do come in wide.

When I tried the shoes on in the shop, they didn't have 10-1/2 Wide in stock. I tried on an 11 regular and they were close, but I thought I could do better, so I had them order the 10-1/2 Wide no obligation. Those were it.

In a perfect world for my feet, yeah, they'd be 5 mm wider across the MTP joints and where the big toes flare (and also 1-2 cm lower at the front of the ankle closure and a couple of mm narrower in the heel. And the left one would be 3/8 of a size larger than the right. :rolleyes:) But they're pretty durn close. And they don't irritate my proto-tailor's bunions at all.

[OakLeaf]

If your heels slip, you know about this method of lacing (http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/locklacing.htm), right?

It's not a cure if the heels are super wide, but it makes an enormous difference.

[TsPoet]

Those pictures could be of my feet, except yours are slimmer and it looks like your pinkie toe might not curl under enough o attack the underside of the toe next to it. I started wearing Vibrams last September, and I am so thrilled. My feet, knees, toes, hips and back haven't felt this good since I was in grade school.
The vibrams site lists feet types that they don't suggest their shoes for (awkward sentence?), including hammer toes. But, I've found that the muscles in those toes have strengthened and the separation of the toes keep them from attacking each other. I wish I'd taken a before picture. My toes are bulbous and ugly, but they no longer curl under.
I do have 5th metatarsal pain from the vibrams, my sports physiologist thinks this is from forcing the hammer toes to straighten somewhat in the shoe causing the nerves to be touchy. But, he likes what he's seeing so much in my feet and knees that he thinks the vibrams are a keeper.
I wear them all day every day, they aren't just running shoes to me.

[GLC1968]

Those pictures could be of my feet, except yours are slimmer and it looks like your pinkie toe might not curl under enough o attack the underside of the toe next to it. I started wearing Vibrams last September, and I am so thrilled. My feet, knees, toes, hips and back haven't felt this good since I was in grade school.
The vibrams site lists feet types that they don't suggest their shoes for (awkward sentence?), including hammer toes. But, I've found that the muscles in those toes have strengthened and the separation of the toes keep them from attacking each other. I wish I'd taken a before picture. My toes are bulbous and ugly, but they no longer curl under.
I do have 5th metatarsal pain from the vibrams, my sports physiologist thinks this is from forcing the hammer toes to straighten somewhat in the show causing the nerves to be touchy. But, he likes what he's seeing so much in my feet and knees that he thinks the vibrams are a keeper.
I wear them all day every day, they aren't just running shoes to me.

This.

I think that if your hammer toes are genetic, correction with VFF's or CorrectToes won't work as well. But if your hammer toes are from shoes (which I think quite a few are since virtually all modern shoes are not designed well for proper foot function), they'll eventually help.

nscrbug - I think I've already shown you my podiatrist's website (http://nwfootankle.com/home/about), but he addresses this issue. I've only been wearing my 'barefoot' shoes (Vibram VFF's and Terra Plana VivoBarefoot styles) for a month and a half now but I can't even begin to explain how much better my feet are. I have different issues than you do, but my podiatrist was totally spot on with his diagnosis (mush of which is on his website). 7 years of pain, multiple podiatrists, custom orthotics - all gone. All I had to sacrafice was my entire footwear wardrobe!

I will say that he predicted that once my feet realigned to what they should be naturally that shoes that didn't hurt previously might start hurting if they didn't meet his 'rules'. Last weekend my cycling shoes actually started to hurt and that's new. The pain was similiar to what you described in your original post - it felt like a quick tingling sensation and the like someone was crushing my three middle toes in a vice. It came on all of a sudden near the very end of my ride and it literally brought tears to my eyes. I suffered the last half mile home and immediately removed my shoes and the pain vanished. I don't know what I'm going to do about this, but for now I'm just recording it as additional information and we'll see what the future brings.

[indigoiis]

When my podiatrist suggested surgery for my inward-tending pinkie toes, I went immediately to minimalist shoes for everything - walking, hiking, running - and barefoot whenever possible. My sidis are an exception, but they are all leather so they "give" somewhat at the toes. When I got rid of all of my synthetic narrow toe box shoes, my toes magically started feeling better and even straightening out some. When you walk barefoot, you strengthen everything in the foot, helping you to spread out those toes and walk more efficiently. Try it!

[OakLeaf]

It's amazing how much my toes have unfurled in the last two years.

One and a half shoe sizes worth. Just from wearing shoes that were big enough in the toes and not worrying so much about "support" in the arch.

[jessmarimba]

nscrbug, have you tried running with the injinji toe socks? My feet look a lot like yours, though running has never been all that painful for me. My biggest issue was that the toenails on the curled-in toes would routinely cut holes in the toes beside them on long runs. Several pairs of bloody socks later, I bought a pair of the injinjis just to see if forcing them to separate would help. Definitely helped the nail cuts, but maybe it would help your pain by forcing those toes to spread a bit? Just an idea.

[bmccasland]

Learned something new every day.
I just figured my curved toes were from early years of ballet. I do know I've broken most of my toes, except my big (great) ones.

My toes don't bother me, and if they affect the shoes I wear, I'm clueless. When my feet hurt it's usually the balls of my feet. Thanks to my bum knee, I've been wearing flats since March. Kind of forgotten what wearing heels feels like to my feet. Currently my knee doesn't like them. Every now and then I see if I can wear heels, put a pair on in the morning step back, 30 seconds later, take off.

[OakLeaf]

I like the way Injinji socks feel, but I don't find them to be nearly as friction-free as my Tekos or even SmartWool - even the wool Injinjis. Plus, they pill easily, and that creates friction of its own. :(

In any style, I've had to go to a larger sock size, as well as larger shoes. Socks that are too small do compress your toes and force them together.

We're really conflating two things - footwear that lets your toes and foot bones move independently, and footwear that's large enough to let your toes and feet take their natural shape. I'm not near ready for VFFs yet - and anyway they are just a hair short for my toes - but bigger shoes and bigger socks have solved most of my toe problems, anyway.

Foot, ankle and hip problems ... I'm working on 'em. :rolleyes:

[Crankin]

And I though my curled toes were just some freak recessive gene.

[nscrbug]

nscrbug, have you tried running with the injinji toe socks? My feet look a lot like yours, though running has never been all that painful for me. My biggest issue was that the toenails on the curled-in toes would routinely cut holes in the toes beside them on long runs. Several pairs of bloody socks later, I bought a pair of the injinjis just to see if forcing them to separate would help. Definitely helped the nail cuts, but maybe it would help your pain by forcing those toes to spread a bit? Just an idea.

Actually, I have. Infact, I have 3 pairs of them. But after numerous attempts, I find that I cannot wear them anymore. Initially, they feel okay (if not a bit weird), but then after a few hours of wearing them...the material in between each toe pocket starts to irritate the skin between my toes. Especially with running...the forward motion of my feet just seems to jam that material into that space between the toes and almost feels like it's cutting or digging into the skin....OUCH! So now I have 3 pairs of Injinji socks that are sitting at the bottom of my sock drawer. :(