Sitbones measured

[bismarckgimpy]

I went to the bike shop and had my sitbones measured. I had a hard time doing the at-home method. There may be too much cushion there. :) So I sat on the squishy gel for a minute. The sales rep took two ball bearings and let them fall on the lower part of the indentation. He took a ruler and measured where the bearings sat. It came to 145 mm. I just wore regular cotton shorts.

The manager mentioned that the Terry Butterfly saddle I have may be too stiff. He said the Surly LHT is steel, but it is a rigid steel. He said that I may be just feeling the bumps too much with my 700 x 32 Continental tires and stiff saddle. He suggested the Terry Liberator. He has a LHT and a Brooks saddle. He said Brooks make good saddles, but it is a long-term commitment.

The store is an authorized Specialized dealer. I did try the Specialized Ariel 143mm seat. It seemed a bit narrow, but it wasn't as rigid as the Terry. I do feel the manager wants the me to have the best saddle and not just sell me the Specialized brand.

Mostly I do one-hour rides with two to three hour rides on weekends. I would like to do a supported two-day tour in September.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

[KnottedYet]

145 mm is your center-to-center measurement. Some folks call that their "inside" measurement.

Center-to-center is important for contoured and padded saddles. You want the center of the saddle "cheeks" or dome to be 145 mm apart, otherwise your bones are missing the carefully engineered sit bone landing spot designed into the saddle.

145 mm + 20-30mm is probably your outside-to-outside. This is important for padded and contoured saddles because you definitely do NOT want the saddle to be LESS than your outside, and you might want a cm or two extra on the saddle, depending on how active a rider you are. If you tend to sit down and not move even a smidgen, then the extra wiggle room doesn't matter. But if you shift to change position and center of gravity for corners and hills and to increase power to pass folks, you will want a little leeway. (you don't want your bones to miss the saddle!)

Your outside measurement is also vital for suspended leather saddles (Brooks, Velo Orange, Selle An Atomica, etc.) Your outside measurement must fit within the width of the saddle MINUS the left and right widths of the cantle plate. Otherwise you land your bones onto the metal rather than onto the suspended leather. (for example, in all likelihood you would hit metal on a Brooks B17, but would be fine and dandy on a B67, B66, B68, B18, or B72 or similar)

I do not find my Surly steel to be any less forgiving than any of my other 3 steel bikes. It is butted steel. Not sure what the LBS guy is talking about, but different people feel different things. (for example I can feel road buzz on aluminum bikes, other people don't) If YOU find your bike to be rigid, then get a B67 if you want a leather saddle.

32mm tires are quite wide enough to absorb a lot of bumps. Not sure why he thinks you need wider tires or a more padded softer saddle. I ride 23 and 25 mm tires on one of my steel bikes, and that is the bike with the unsprung B68 leather saddle. No problem.

Yes, it can take a couple weeks to break in a Brooks. They last 30 to 40 years if you remember to rub proof hide on them every few months.

www.wallbike.com gives 6 months free trial on all Brooks saddles. You mentioned interest in a Brooks in another thread. If you don't find the Specialized dealer gets you a Specialized or Terry saddle that works, I'd suggest trying a Brooks through Bill at Wallingford Bicycle Parts (aka "Wallbike")

[OakLeaf]

145 mm is your center-to-center measurement. Some folks call that their "inside" measurement.

Well now I'm confused! I thought inside meant the opposite of outside. My c-c (deepest point, not necessarily the midpoint) is more like 125...

[KnottedYet]

Someone posted a great picture of her current saddle, with pennies marking where her sit bones land.

The pennies were on the very outside edges of the saddle, completely missing the carefully engineered contact points of the saddle.

I'm sorry, but I can't find it now.

It was a great photo, showing how important it is to know what to do with the c-to-c info about your sitz and the saddle. Hopefully someone else will be able to find it, and will post a link?

Knot-the-computer-illiterate :confused:

[OakLeaf]

Voilà. (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showpost.php?p=523434&postcount=1)


And for myself, I know I understand where I need to be (which is why I correctly chose a 155 even though what I've posted as my "inside" is 80) - but don't you need to know the actual inside measurement if the saddle has a cut-out or channel that extends that far back? You wouldn't want them falling into the moat, either.

[KnottedYet]

Oak, darling! You are my hero!!! :D

[bismarckgimpy]

I should clarify, the store manager didn't recommend different tires. He said the tires are good tires. He thought the combination of the Terry Butterfly and Continental 32s was the problem. He recommends keeping the tires, but switching to the Liberator.

I put two dimes on the Terry Liberator where my sitbones would be. The dimes fell off. My sitbones are near the edge.

The Liberator is wider, but not much. I am going to bypass that saddle too.

I should add the shop was helpful. The sales rep told me I needed to raise my saddle and that the saddle nose was pointing downwards.

Looking to make a decision soon. Thanks for the help.

[KnottedYet]

He thought the combination of the Terry Butterfly and Continental 32s was the problem. He recommends keeping the tires, but switching to the Liberator.


32 mm tires are very forgiving, and it is extraordinary that they'd be blamed for any part of any saddle pain.

I am truly gobsmacked by this dude's proclamations.

[sarahspins]

The manager mentioned that the Terry Butterfly saddle I have may be too stiff.

This is unlikely.. honestly.. I think a majority of your problems come from the saddle not being wide enough for you. It's only 155mm across at the widest point, but when you consider the outside slope of the saddle, it's probably not enough.. when I tried a similar saddle (SI Lady Gelflow) I could literally feel my sit bones hanging OVER the edges of the saddle... it was not good.

I ride an unsprung brooks and it's not "too stiff" at all.. if your sit bones are properly supported you don't need padding.. squishy can actually contribute to soreness on longer rides too.

[bismarckgimpy]

Thanks everyone for the help. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, KnottedYet. It's hard to find a saddle that is over 7" wide. I checked Koobi, Selle, Specialized, Bontragger, Brooks, Terry, WTB, Serfas, Avocet, and Fizik. Brooks, Bontragger and Serfas are the only ones that had saddles over 7". Some companies carry the indoor exercise bike saddle, but I didn't consider those.

The Bontragger and Serfas look a little too soft. So after much consideration, I think the B68 is the way to go. I am leaning towards the unsprung. Also, I need to figure out if I want the cutout or not.

Appreciate any other thoughts and comments.

[trista]

Hee hee. The falling in the moat issue seems to get left out of the conversation a lot. I fall into the moat on the SI Diva with cutout. And it hurt!

I have noticed that too - it seems like that part of the equation is an important one but gets left off. When I got into position on the Butterfly I found that my inner crotch bones, as I will scientifically call them (pubic rami maybe?), hit directly ON the edges of the cutout. OUUUUUcccchhhhh. It seems like, with road biking anyway, the inside part of the equation is just about as important as the outside (the sitbones), but the only measuring that is done is of the sitbones. It confuses me.

[KnottedYet]

Oak, Trista, Murienn -

Can you guys work up an equation for cut-outs and "falling in the moat"?

That would be so cool, and definitely useful!

(accumulating one equation at a time, TE will come to dominate the saddle fitting universe!):D

[Trek420]

Then there'll be a "sit bone to saddle" ratio ap for that? ;)

[Susan]

First, I'm sorry if my writing reads a bit "weird" - I'm not so used to writing in English and therefore just kept "lurking" here until now :)

But I'm so confused right now with saddle width, that I have to ask:

If I get you right, bismarckgimpy, your LBD measured your sitbone width at 145mm. You then tried a Specialized Ariel 143mm (I guess that was the suggestion of the guy who fitted you).

I ordered a SI SLR Lady Gel Flow yesterday. The description says that it's 155mm wide. I measured my sitbones at home and got 135mm from center to center, so I thought that a 155 mm saddle would fit me. But the effective width of the SLR is much smaller - my sitbone-centers sit right in the same place as in the picture that OakLeaf posted from the other thread - I guess not where they should be (btw: I'm really sad about that because the SLR looks sooo nice and is quite hard, I would really love it if it wasn't too narrow :()

I also saw a SQ-lab 611 active at my LBS today. The biggest one (15 cm) is wider than the SLR, and the centers of my sitbones are closer to the center of the saddle, but still the Saddle is smaller than my outside-to-outside measurement - so my Sitbones would "hang of" of it at the outsides.

The SQlab 610 which is also available in 16cm width looks really big, I don't know if it would be comfortable for riding technical trails (getting behind the saddle). And, while it's not the most important thing, I wouldn't mind a more "sportive" look for my MTB.

Are the Specialized measurements different? I mean, if a Specialized saddle is "15cm" wide in its description, does that mean it's actually wider and has 15cm space to actually sit on (which isn't the case with the SI saddles)?

I'm confused with this whole saddle-width and measurement thing because from what I read here, 13.5 cm sitbone width is not unusual for women, but still it seems that I can't find a good fitting MTB saddle so easily.

[bismarckgimpy]

Susan,

Re-read KnottedYet's post. It's the second one in this thread. Lots of good information. I read through it a couple of times for it to sink in.

It really didn't make sense for me to try the 143mm Specialized Ariel. Specialized makes the Body Geometry seats in 130/143/155 mm widths. The whole idea is that you get measured and since their are three widths available, one will fit you. Body Geometry is a great brand name, slogan or trademark (whatever you want to call it). In my opinion, the advertising campaign and product are misleading. Again in my opinion, the three widths really are extra small, small and medium. If you have a large or extra large sitbone width, well try something else.

I am full of opinions. :) I think saddle companies don't sell a lot of seats wider than 7" or 177mm because I think the public has the idea that they are for fat people, or for old ladies who want a pillow for a saddle. If you can't market a product, you ain't gonna sell it. My husband works in advertising. He agrees with that concept. Even Brooks lists the B68 as a Civic and Heavy Duty saddle. Though I'm guessing many people use it for touring.

I thought I saw in a thread, the breakdown of what percent of women have of what sitbone width. I am surprised and disappointed Terry doesn't have a wider saddle than 7".

Enough for now.

[Susan]

@bismarckgimpy: KnottedYets post makes total sense to me and is something to hold onto right now :)

The Problem is, there is a lot of information out there and the different saddle brands don't seem to agree at how to fit a saddle at all.

If I measure my 155 mm SLR (that I will send back today) with Knotted Yets Post in mind (and hoping I'm doing it right) I would say that it is designed for a woman with approximately 130mm - 140mm outside-to-outside width and 110mm - 120mm center-to-center. (And, just in case somebody wants to know, at the point where your sitbones hit, the cutout measures about 35mm.) With this measurements there still wouldn't be much wiggle room for shifting around and so on. That's small for a designated womans saddle, isn't it?

If you read the SQlabs homepage, they measure center-to-center and then add some centimeters depending on your position on the bike. For SQ-lab I would need a 155 oder 160 saddle - but then my sitbones would still stick out a bit as they measure 170mm from outside to outside.

Specialized would fit me on a 155 saddle.

But I think you are totally right Bismarckgimpy, wide saddles just don't have a positive Image that could be why they are not promoted and sold so much. It may be a similar problem as with Bra-sizes (where "everyone" fits a B or a C...) but thats a whole different story :D

@Muirenn: I will definitely try a Specialized womens saddle too. I have the one that came with my Stumpjumper, but as it is a mans-model (I don't know how you really call that? male model? He-bike? ;)) it is too small.

I think there is a SLR without a cutout, do you mean that one? Mine is the one with cutout (SLR lady gel flow) and it is definitely wider than the Diva-cutout, though not as wide as it looks on the pictures (on the widest part, the cutout measures 40mm, at the point where the centers of your sitbones hit it measures about 35mm).
The SLR is harder than the Diva and the shape is a bit different - the diva is rounder on the top, while the SLR is quite flat. The effective width is approximately the same.

I have sat on it. It is possible to sit on my sitbones in one spot, but it's really easy to slide off the sides. I can feel the edges of the saddle on my bones. When I don't actively watch my position, the saddle slides between my sitbones and I end up sitting on my soft tissue.
I also measured my sitbones with a piece of cardboard and then took a piece of clear plastic and marked the cardboard-imprints on it with an edding. Now I can take this "test-***" and put it on saddles to see where my sitbones would land. On the SI, my sitbbone-centers would land on the very edge, and I guess thats why I slip of so easily.

I didn't do a longer test ride however, because I think, as much as I like the looks of the saddle, it won't fit me anyways and it's quite expensive - so I'll send it back. I fear the muddy weather here wouldn't leave it in an "unused condition" if I took a ride.

[OakLeaf]

One thing that I remember Knott posting some months ago was that if you don't need a cut-out, don't get one, because it can cause more problems by concentrating pressure that would otherwise be more widely distributed.

I wonder if a corollary to that is that women who need cut-outs will always have more saddle problems than women who don't? :(

[KnottedYet]

Yeah, that was from the bike fit seminar I went to in SF like 3 years ago. It's the one good piece of info I got from the saddle people.

The Trek folks who were working on the prototype "Inform" saddles at the time gave a little presentation on their saddle design. The only other woman there and I were both going "wait a minute, that's not right!" As I recall, the physician there was also somewhat unconvinced.

Later I got a hold of the original research that lead to that design and it was shoddy and poorly done. It was a student project funded by Trek. (if you put a woman on a pressure-pad sensored rounded saddle that is narrow, OF COURSE you will "discover" that she is weightbearing on her pubic rami, she has no other option. So designing a saddle that is meant to wedge up into the arch of the rami is kinda confusing the whole cause/effect thing.) (what they should have done was asked a bunch of women to bring in their favorite saddles, sensored them, and measured both the women and their saddles and the pressure distribution on saddles they liked; rather than putting a bunch of volunteers on the exact same saddle and saying, oh looky, weightbearing on the rami and squishing soft tissue! It must be what all women want!")

The first women's versions of the saddles were roundly hated, and were promptly redesigned. From what little I've heard, the improved design is doing ok.

[Susan]

I was at my LBS today in the afternoon. It's true Muirenn, a 155 Specialized is much wider than the 155 SI SLR.

The specialized dealer would have fitted me onto a 143, but I'm quite convinced that would be too narrow and bought a Ruby 155. From the short ride I did before it started raining again I can't tell if it fits right. It feels definitely wider and I can feel my sitbones on it.

[bismarckgimpy]

Good luck Susan with your Ruby. Let us know how it works for you. I get your post about how different saddles can have the same measurements, but how those measurements can vary from company to company. I'll let you know how the B68 works.

[malkin]

... It must be what all women want!"



*sigh*
I could rant here, because you know it wasn't just this piece of saddle investigation that was conducted like that. It was pretty much everything. I hope things are better for our daughters and their daughters...