Rollers and momentum

[Catrin]

I've read the other threads on hill climbing, but I just can't seem to beat this problem that I have. We don't have long hills around here, but we do have short and quite steep ones. I have this problem with loosing my momentum rather early and then wind up spinning/grinding up the hill at 6mph - though perhaps that isn't so bad.

Next weekend I am going on a ride in the southern part of the state - THAT ride has a hill with a 1.5 mile climb. I know that hills are at least as much mental as they are physical.

Any tips on how I can maintain my momentum longer? I suspect that I am gearing down too soon - just trying to work this out in my head.

[lph]

I think the key is trying to keep roughly the same cadence, which is hardest when the terrain changes from flat-out can't-pedal downhill to abrupt steep uphill. I would try to maximize my speed downhill, pedalling if possible (with resistance, spinning without resistance just makes me unsteady), and as soon as my speed drops a little try to downshift and find the right gearing for that speed, the next moment downshift a bit more to that right gearing, etc until you're either at the top of the hill or on your lowest gear.

I'm trying to imagine it and I think that coming fast into a steep hill I maybe downshift in 3 or 4 separate "sessions", several gears at a time, if that makes sense, before ending up on my smallest grinder gears. It comes with practice, judging at which speed you can use which gear, or rather - how much slowing down needs to generate how much downshifting.

I would think it helps to practice on the same hill or the same route, and try out several strategies. Downshifting too much is rarely a problem, you can just shift up a bit, but downshifting too little will have you struggling to shift again under pressure.

Oh, and long hills really are all about just grinding along, all momentum lost... Sing to yourself, stand a little, sit a little, practice reaching for your water bottle, don't worry about speed :-)

[Grog]

I have this problem with loosing my momentum rather early and then wind up spinning/grinding up the hill at 6mph - though perhaps that isn't so bad.

Indeed it doesn't seem bad to me.


Any tips on how I can maintain my momentum longer? I suspect that I am gearing down too soon - just trying to work this out in my head.

For what it's worth, I tend to pedal harder on the downhills if I see an uphill ahead. Once I'm on the uphill, I try to ease the pedaling and change gear just a second before I need to do it. Two seconds if I need to switch to another chainring. Practice allows me to do this pretty seamlessly now so to avoid losing momentum. On a 2-km hill however momentum becomes pretty irrelevant: it will help you for the first 300 meters and then you're on your own. :) A mantra will be more useful than momentum at that stage. :)

[Becky]

For what it's worth, I tend to pedal harder on the downhills if I see an uphill ahead. Once I'm on the uphill, I try to ease the pedaling and change gear just a second before I need to do it. Two seconds if I need to switch to another chainring. Practice allows me to do this pretty seamlessly now so to avoid losing momentum. On a 2-km hill however momentum becomes pretty irrelevant: it will help you for the first 300 meters and then you're on your own. :) A mantra will be more useful than momentum at that stage. :)

This is pretty much what I do. It's taken me a long time to get comfortable with it. Keep practicing, and the technique will come. For short rolly hills, you may be able to gain enough momentum on the downhill to power up the other side without downshifting or by downshifting just a cog or two.

I spent a winter using the "Hillacious" Spinervals video (the one with the Great Harvest Bread Co. team), and the techniques that I learned from it have really had a positive impact on my climbing ability. If you're a trainer user, this might be an option....

[malkin]

There's a stop sign at the bottom of the beginning of the big hill on my commute.

I've got a granny gear, and I know how to use it.

[tulip]

Like Grog and Becky said: don't coast down the hill--there's always an up on the other side of the down. Pedal (in harder gears) down and shift as you need to going up the other side. It will take practice.

[Catrin]

Thanks for all of the advice, and I will try to remember this during this week when I head back out on the bike. I WOULD like to practice what hills I can before next Saturday.

I have tried to pedal downhill, but found that it was just free-wheeling and just odd - however I didn't try to shift into a harder front gear.

So what I am hearing is that I need to practice more, of course, and resist the temptation to coast downhill. I LIKE coasting downhill - it is fun :D However I need a different approach because this isn't helping me much in getting up the next hill. I do NOT want to wind up walking that 1.5 mile hill next Sat :rolleyes: Not that there is anything wrong with walking up a hill, just saying...

[indysteel]

You will develop a better feel for it with practice. While I know there are some elevation changes in the area where you ride, it's still relatively flat. Once you start doing some rides south of Indy, you'll get a lot more practice with it.

I'd also say that momentum only gets you so far in Indiana, as I wouldn't describe the terrain as rolling. Do the second day of the Horsey Hundred in Kentucky, and you'll understand the difference. Here, the hills aren't as constant and they can be abrupt and steep, so while you may have a bit of momentum going into the hill, it is unlikely to be enough to get to the top. In fact, it may barely get you up halfway. I actually tend to rely less on momentum with some of these steeper hills and more on choosing a gear at the outset that will allow me to set a sustainable pace up the hill. I do not keep the same cadence on those hills that I use on the flats. I would blow up if I tried to do that. Rather, I get in a relatively easy gear, take a deep breath and then just pace myself up, susatining a good balance between aerobic and power outputs.

[Catrin]

You will develop a better feel for it with practice. While I know there are some elevation changes in the area where you ride, it's still relatively flat. Once you start doing some rides south of Indy, you'll get a lot more practice with it. ......... I actually tend to rely less on momentum with some of these steeper hills and more on choosing a gear at the outset that will allow me to set a sustainable pace up the hill. I do not keep the same cadence on those hills that I use on the flats. I would blow up if I tried to do that. Rather, I get in a relatively easy gear, take a deep breath and then just pace myself up, sustaining a good balance between aerobic and power outputs.

Indy - Thanks for this, it helps. I just got in from a light 20 mile ride - and tried to pay closer attention to my shifting on the steep hills along the way. It is kind of interesting how they come, perfectly flat ground then there is this short hill that is so steep that I wonder if I will make it to the top - and thankfully I always do. It doesn't seem to make all that much of a difference how fast I am going when I hit it...so it is good to hear that this sounds normal. I think it was easier today as I tried to shift more frequently instead of trying to power my way through it.

I am hoping the weather will permit me to head out Thursday after work and do some hill repeats on 875 and 200s in Boone County - if you are familiar with that area. After this next Saturday I want to start heading south every other Saturday, if possible, and play in the hills. I just wanted to get up to being able to tolerate longer rides first...

[tulip]

Catrin, I think you are doing great. It was not so long ago that you were not comfortable shifting at all. Now you are learning the art of when to shift. You will need to get comfortable shifting into your big front ring when you pedal downhill, but there's no rush. Just keep doing what you are doing because it's working just fine. You've made great progress and I'm very proud of you!

[indysteel]

Catrin, like I said, it's perfectly normal that momentum isn't getting you very far with the hills you've encountered thus far. I actually think focusing on it may be preventing you from learning how to best gear from some of these hills. For instance, the long hill on next week's ride--assuming it's the one I think it is--is long but not steep, so climbing it is more a question of patience than anything. You have to find a gear you can sustain without killing your legs or blowing up your lung and then get into a steady rhythm.

Climbing in southern Indiana confounded me until I started riding with a friend of mine who taught me to pace myself from the base of the hill. It really does take some patience on some of these hills because they are too steep and long to just power over. You have to stop yourself from starting to panic because it looks like the end will never come.

It'll get easier, I promise. Like Tulip said, you've already come a long way.

On Saturday's ride, Brian and I plan to ride a bit in front of the group as is our norm on the GT rides, but sometime soon, let's head down to Morgan Monroe. There are some good hills to learn on just outside the park so I can better show you want I mean.

[Catrin]

Catrin, like I said, it's perfectly normal that momentum isn't getting you very far with the hills you've encountered thus far. I actually think focusing on it may be preventing you from learning how to best gear from some of these hills. For instance, the long hill on next week's ride--assuming it's the one I think it is--is long but not steep, so climbing it is more a question of patience than anything. You have to find a gear you can sustain without killing your legs or blowing up your lung and then get into a steady rhythm.

Climbing in southern Indiana confounded me until I started riding with a friend of mine who taught me to pace myself from the base of the hill. It really does take some patience on some of these hills because they are too steep and long to just power over. You have to stop yourself from starting to panic because it looks like the end will never come.

It'll get easier, I promise. Like Tulip said, you've already come a long way.

On Saturday's ride, Brian and I plan to ride a bit in front of the group as is our norm on the GT rides, but sometime soon, let's head down to Morgan Monroe. There are some good hills to learn on just outside the park so I can better show you want I mean.

Cool, I will remember this next Saturday - and I did NOT go and drive it. I figured if I did and found a really long and steep hill that it might beat me before I actually ride it.

Good to hear that you and Brian will be there, I will be the one at the rear of the group. Way at the rear ;) I am greatly looking forward to my introduction to southern Indiana - at least I know that my bike is geared for it :D

Just let me know when a good time would be to head down to Morgan Monroe - that sounds like a great idea. Now I seem to, hopefully, have my saddle issues solved - at least I hope so...

Tulip and Indy, thanks for the encouragement, it is appreciated!

[marni]

mantra for hill climbing- to the song of Frer Jacques
we are climbing, we are climbing,
yes we are, yes we are
This is not a real hill, this is not a real hill,
No it's not, no ti's not.

when in dobut/downshift until you can't shift anymore and remember, as long as you are maintaining enough momentum to move forward, you are in balance and all is good.

My worse climb was 8400 feet of elevation over 6 miles at just under 3 miles an hour.

marni

[Eden]

My worse climb was 8400 feet of elevation over 6 miles at just under 3 miles an hour.

marni

ehhhhhhh - I highly doubt that........ that would be a road that averages over 26% grade for 6 miles.

[Crankin]

Catrin, you can't improve if you don't have many places to practice what you want to do!
Besides, 6 mph is a perfectly respectable speed for steep climbs. Unless you are racing, what's the point of going so fast that you eventually blow up and have to get off the bike? I have seen this time and time again on rides; people are mashing up the hill, trying to go faster, when suddenly, I notice it looks like they have been shot backwards out of a cannon. Get in your granny gear at the bottom of the hill and stay in a mid to higher range gear on the back. Shift down as you need to on the rear, trying to keep a steady cadence. Do *not* look at your computer! I have been told time and time again that I am a good climber... but really, all I do is use the easiest gear I can, spin up the hill, and pace myself.
The best thing that ever happened to me was on our recent trip to Spain, they did not have computers on the bikes. At first, I complained. But, as we got into the "mountains," I appreciated it. DH and I just ticked the pedals over again and again. We had 3 very difficult climbs (two of them ranked climbs from the Vuelta and one 10 mile climb), as well as a few others. We made it up all of them ahead of everyone else in the group, except for the 2 people who were clearly stronger, who were trying to go as fast as possible. After riding at home for the past 6 weeks since we got back, I now realize we must have been going between 3-6 mph :eek:. I think this is especially important if you don't know what lies ahead.
Don't worry so much about this. It will come.

[OakLeaf]

Good advice here, and I'd especially listen to Indy who knows your terrain.

I don't think there's much momentum effect until you get over 10% on both the climbs and the descents... at least over 25 mph and maybe 30.

Learning your shift points and how to maintain cadence is a prerequisite to maintaining momentum. Focus on the former and the latter will come.

If you're finding yourself spun out at a relatively low speed and cadence, downhills are a great place to practice a nice circular pedal stroke. Back in the day we did downhill intervals for just that purpose. Let gravity propel you, stay in whatever gear you climbed in, and spin with just enough pressure on the pedals that you're not freewheeling, until you start to bounce. Since you don't have to put pressure on the pedals to propel yourself, you can concentrate on using the same amount of pressure all the way around.

But that's an intermediate-to-advanced drill... work first just on learning your shift points and shifting smoothly. On the steep stuff, you may find you want to shift several cogs at once, or you may want to go one gear at a time, pedal a few strokes and on to the next one. You may be lucky and find some of those ideal hills where you can just shift your chainring for climbing/descending, and stay in one of the middle freewheel cogs.

[laura*]

I have tried to pedal downhill, but found that it was just free-wheeling and just odd - however I didn't try to shift into a harder front gear.

So what I am hearing is that I need to practice more, of course, and resist the temptation to coast downhill. I LIKE coasting downhill - it is fun :D

Pedaling downhill has a secondary usefulness. If you coast too long, your muscles can cool off. Then you'll find it hard to resume pedaling.

There's a long downgrade hereabouts. I once set out to see just how far I could coast. According to Google Earth, I coasted at least 3 miles, maybe 3.5. My legs did not like to restart! Since then I'll pedal to speed up where possible, or at least keep slowly spinning (free-wheeling).

[DarcyInOregon]

The two smartest things Catrin can do to improve her hill climbing skills are: 1)get clipless pedals, 2)use a GPS bike computer and learn the grades. Without clipless pedals, going up steeper grades will just be mashing the pedals. It is equally important to know what the grade is, and over time one learns which gear to be in for which grade at whatever length. There is a big difference between the connotation of "steep" if the grade is 8% or 15%. Heck, newer cyclists may think 4% is steep. However when the climbing skill is to start shifting down as the cadence drops, it is not practical if one is mashing up the hill on flat pedals.

For the person who said don't look at the bike computer, that is true if it is a long climb and the game plan is to stay in the lowest gears and pedal so as to conserve energy because looking at the bike computer won't contribute anything. However for Catrin's types of short hills, it is best to have a good GPS bike computer, to know her cadence, and to learn her grades.

[indysteel]

The two smartest things Catrin can do to improve her hill climbing skills are: 1)get clipless pedals, 2)use a GPS bike computer and learn the grades. Without clipless pedals, going up steeper grades will just be mashing the pedals. It is equally important to know what the grade is, and over time one learns which gear to be in for which grade at whatever length. There is a big difference between the connotation of "steep" if the grade is 8% or 15%. Heck, newer cyclists may think 4% is steep. However when the climbing skill is to start shifting down as the cadence drops, it is not practical if one is mashing up the hill on flat pedals.

For the person who said don't look at the bike computer, that is true if it is a long climb and the game plan is to stay in the lowest gears and pedal so as to conserve energy because looking at the bike computer won't contribute anything. However for Catrin's types of short hills, it is best to have a good GPS bike computer, to know her cadence, and to learn her grades.

I agree that clipless pedals will help--when she's ready for them--but I respectfully disagree as to a GPS. I don't have one and climb just fine. Most of the people I ride with don't have them, and they climb just fine. I'm not honestly sure I understand how knowing the specific grade helps. My eyes, legs and lungs tell me what I need to know.

[OakLeaf]

GPS will tell you nothing useful about grade. It's the nature of satellite triangulation that elevation, and by inference grade, are extremely inaccurate.

If you must have an expensive gadget, a barometric altimeter is the ticket, but a $20 bubble inclinometer is the most accurate indication of real-time grade you can buy.

But she doesn't need to know what grade it is when her cadence drops below her ideal. Cadence meter will tell her that...

[DarcyInOregon]

I agree that clipless pedals will help--when she's ready for them--but I respectfully disagree as to a GPS. I don't have one and climb just fine. Most of the people I ride with don't have them, and they climb just fine. I'm not honestly sure I understand how knowing the specific grade helps. My eyes, legs and lungs tell me what I need to know.

Just because you don't use a GPS and know the grades doesn't mean it isn't useful for another cyclist. Even on the Tour de France, the team managers are communicating to the cyclists the exact grades of each climb that is upcoming. If this wasn't important information, why would they communicate it to the racers? It is important to know so the cyclists know which gear to be in. Go on an event ride in my region and the majority of the century cyclists have a GPS computer on their bike. At the SAG stops the discussions are about the exact percentage of the upcoming grades and the length.

[DarcyInOregon]

GPS will tell you nothing useful about grade. It's the nature of satellite triangulation that elevation, and by inference grade, are extremely inaccurate.

If you must have an expensive gadget, a barometric altimeter is the ticket, but a $20 bubble inclinometer is the most accurate indication of real-time grade you can buy.

But she doesn't need to know what grade it is when her cadence drops below her ideal. Cadence meter will tell her that...

My computer is accurate. It is not a useless gadget. I improved my climbing skills considerably by learning the grades and focusing on my cadence.

Instructing Catrin on cadence skills for climbing is useless without clipless pedals. Better to give her instructions for how to climb on flat pedals. There must be some sort of technique for those types of pedals other than mash.

[OakLeaf]

http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0560.html

One thing all fitness GPS have in common is their small size. I'm sure it would be a great workout to carry aircraft or agricultural-grade GPS (plus its power supply) on a bike, but I rarely see horizontal DOP better than 3 meters on mine, and it's usually worse. Multiply that by 1.5 (many sources say multiply by 2 to 3) for vertical DOP, consider the relatively low speed of a bicycle, and you see the problem. Assuming you're climbing a hill at 10 feet per second (around 7 mph) and think about what a 15 foot error in elevation is going to do to your grade readout.

[Crankin]

Darcy, I was the person who said don't look at the computer. Yes, that is exactly my strategy. Conserve energy in a low gear. While I don't need to do that on short climbs (no matter the grade) most of the time, at times weather and the way i feel make me use it as an all around successful strategy for climbing. I guess if you are focused on going faster up a climb, then look at your speed. I do have a cadence function, but I don't need to look at it to know when it's dropped! And while I agree that knowing your cadence is important so you are not mashing, it's not necessary for everyone.
Personally, I do much better if I do not know the grade. In fact, knowing it makes me feel like giving up much more easily. Let me find out later and then I will feel like I accomplished something.
I guess I am not so focused on speed while climbing. I am a natural spinner and have had a lot of questions on how I am able to do this. My answer is always "I don't know. It's just what I do." I never trained to do this, and all I know is that it sort of pisses off some of the guys in my riding group when I spin up a hill, and they are standing, trying to get ahead.

[indysteel]

If it works for you, then great, but I still just don't think it's necessary to know the grade of a hill as you're climbing it. I don't use a cadence meter either. I don't even have a computer on my bike anymore. So far, so good.

Like I said, my eyes, lungs and legs tell me what I need to know when it comes to cadence and gearing. Can't move my pedals? Shift to an easier gear. Can't breathe? Lower my cadence. Feel anxious because I have a wall of pavement in front of me? Relax my upper body and calm my breathing. Heart pounding out of my chest, out of gears and slowing to a crawl? Unclip and walk.

Admittedly, it takes some practice to interpret and react to that sensory input and to learn what strategies work best for you. Catrin will hopefully start to get that practice.

As for professional riders using those tools. Well, they get A LOT more information than your average rider gets or needs. It's apples and oranges in my opinion. We're also talking about epic mountain climbs with them. Southern Indiana hills are mostly under a mile long. How much thought and strategy do you really need? Put it into a gear your legs and lungs can handle and go. Get to the top. Rinse and repeat. Obviously it's a little more complicated than that, but not by much. I, honestly, see no reason to overthink it.

[DarcyInOregon]

http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0560.html

One thing all fitness GPS have in common is their small size. I'm sure it would be a great workout to carry aircraft or agricultural-grade GPS (plus its power supply) on a bike, but I rarely see horizontal DOP better than 3 meters on mine, and it's usually worse. Multiply that by 1.5 (many sources say multiply by 2 to 3) for vertical DOP, consider the relatively low speed of a bicycle, and you see the problem. Assuming you're climbing a hill at 10 feet per second (around 7 mph) and think about what a 15 foot error in elevation is going to do to your grade readout.

There is usually agreement among the cyclists as to what the grade is. If there is a variation, the cyclists will say something like 6-7%, and it is sufficient to know how to tackle the hill, knowing that it is 6-7% versus 12% or 16%. But usually everyone gets the same reading and it is known that such and such hill is one mile long and mostly 18% and tapering down to 13% toward the top, and just knowing it is that steep and at what mile the hill is will give the cyclist the ability to plan on how to cycle the hill, or even walk it. When I get to the hills, my GPS tells me the same grade is what the other cylists said it was, so if there is an inaccuracy it is common among all of us. If there is a slight inaccuracy for ALL cyclists, then it isn't critical because the training is on how to climb the different grades, because different grade ranges take a different kind of gear.

I am not a particularly fast cyclist. However I really improved on the hill climbing by focusing on the grades, and learning specific techniques for each grade range relative to the length. My improvement has been tremendous. Even last week I went up a hill with a 11-13% grade, one where I shifted into my granny at the bottom in prior years, and now I go up the hill in my middle cog and my speed when I crest the hill isn't below 9 mph.

[DarcyInOregon]

If it works for you, then great, but I still just don't think it's necessary to know the grade of a hill as you're climbing it. I don't use a cadence meter either. I don't even have a computer on my bike anymore. So far, so good.

.

It works for you. Just saying though, that lots of cyclists use GPS bike computers with heart rate function, average speed function, grade and elevation function, and cadence function, and such bike computers are an effective training tool for them. I went on a group ride a few weeks ago and everyone in the lead pack had a GPS computer whereas the cyclists who took a half hour longer to do the 2 mile climb didn't have such computers. If such bike computers work for so many thousands and thousands of cyclists, perhaps it might work for Catrin too becasue she seems pretty serious about wanting to turn herself into a distance cyclist and is training hard to do so. Just because you don't use a computer doesn't mean that it would not be a good idea for Catrin to use one, particularly as she expressed her intent to travel to different areas to bike. She should probably get clipless pedals and cycling shoes first though, if she is prioritizing expenditures.

[tulip]

I'm sure Catrin can speak for herself, but I just wanted you to know that she does have clipless pedals and shoes, but she found that she's not ready to use them yet. One thing at a time, she's doing great and the hills will come, too.

[Eden]

I went on a group ride a few weeks ago and everyone in the lead pack had a GPS computer whereas the cyclists who took a half hour longer to do the 2 mile climb didn't have such computers.

Correlation does not imply causation.....

One could easily look at this from the other side too ... all the riders who are faster are using GPS computers, whereas the slower cyclists don't feel the need to have them.... The slower cyclists could be more casual riders who don't buy fancy toys, they could have less $$$ to spend and therefore not only do not have GPS, but have much heavier equipment, etc. There could be many reasons you see this relationship that have nothing to do with GPS computers making people faster.

[indysteel]

GPS units are less common in my neck of the woods. I only know of a handful of cyclists who use them. Maybe the hills around here are different enough that we just don't get as caught up in the facts and figures. I know the grade of specific hills--the notorious ones--but that's about it. And just so we're clear, I'm a good climber--at least when I train for it. To me, that's the key. I understand that you put a lot of stock in your GPS unit, but it's also possible that you got better at climbing because you practiced it. Just a thought.

Listen, I like bike bling as much as the next person, but I also fundamentally resist the notion that cyclists necessarily need to arm themselves with the best bikes, the best gear, or the best gadgets to have fun or to ride well. People were riding bikes long before computerized accessories came into the picture after all. I think there's enough room in the sport to make it as high tech or low tech as you want it to be (or your budget allows).

Catrin's a smart woman. I'm sure she can decide for herself after reading this thread.

[Crankin]

Eden, I was just going to say what you stated. Duh, the faster group got to the top because they were the faster group. Nothing to do with GPS.
I am not a fast rider either, but I am a good climber. I readily admit I hate gadgets and technology in general, but I do have bike computer, which is used mostly to see how far I've gone. Some rides are focused on speed, some I don't even look at my average. I quit wearing my HRM years ago, because I was just looking at it too much. Plus, it got interference with everything. My HR is higher than a lot of people's when I ride, yet I am not experiencing any difficulty. I know I am fit. PRE is enough for me.
Of course, I don't ride with traditional type groups, so hence, I feel no need to use any of this stuff. When I feel the need to compete with myself, I stick with the faster guys in my group, and the fact that I can hang on with them is good. Heck, we're all old guys, anyway, so I tend to compare myself to the couch potato who thinks they are washed up at my age.
Then I feel a lot better!

[Catrin]

This is an interesting conversation! I DO have SPD pedals and shoes - and after falling over a LOT when I tried to put them on my Trek it became apparent that it isn't time for them yet. When I am ready, I will try them again. Until then I've had no problem with my BMX pedals other than the fact they seem to be the vampires of pedal world and like to draw my blood :o

I know that clipping in will provide more power in the overall pedal stroke - but I've no problem picking a cadence and keeping it without them. For example on my ride tonight I was able to maintain a cadence of 87-89 pretty much the entire time. I know that I have to mash more, but am working to learn how to work with the gears and my knees are appreciating it.

I also have an inexpensive Cateye Strata Cadence computer on both my bikes. They tell me all I need to know for now. Eventually, when I can afford it, I will get the Garmin 705 but I suspect that will be a purchase for next year. This year I am focusing on my bike skills, getting a nice mileage base built up as I prepare for the October brevet, and gaining the confidence I need to go wherever Mr Wanderer wants to go (this seems to be my LHT's new name - it fits :)

I think that, at least now, knowing the grade of a hill would be down-right intimidating :eek:

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on all of this - and for your encouragement! It is truly helpful to read everyone's perspectives and experiences!

[Catrin]

Multi-Quoting is apparently my friend :D




.....I'm trying to imagine it and I think that coming fast into a steep hill I maybe downshift in 3 or 4 separate "sessions", several gears at a time, if that makes sense, before ending up on my smallest grinder gears. It comes with practice, judging at which speed you can use which gear, or rather - how much slowing down needs to generate how much downshifting.

I would think it helps to practice on the same hill or the same route, and try out several strategies. Downshifting too much is rarely a problem, you can just shift up a bit, but downshifting too little will have you struggling to shift again under pressure.

Oh, and long hills really are all about just grinding along, all momentum lost... Sing to yourself, stand a little, sit a little, practice reaching for your water bottle, don't worry about speed :-)

Today I experimented! I went to my "favorite" local park that has a very long, steep, and somewhat windy hill for a main road. I figured since I am doing this ride Saturday morning that I should practice with hill repeats so I could work on shifting.

I completely forgot about momentum as I lose it in the curves anyway - even while the fast boys and girls are blasting past me. That is fine, they can go around me :) Instead I worked between middle and granny front cogs to figure out where I needed to be in the rear to take full advantage of the front gears. I could tell a difference! I found myself going up the steepest bit of the hill at an entire 5mph, but with a cadence of 80 and my legs felt great! Ok, so there is something to this thing about not trying to power up in a harder gear - as has been my practice.



Like Grog and Becky said: don't coast down the hill--there's always an up on the other side of the down. Pedal (in harder gears) down and shift as you need to going up the other side. It will take practice.

Yup, and I found myself wanting to do the opposite - there is a part of me that wants to hit a harder gear at the bottom - probably because I want to feel that gear under my feet. Instead I put it in the granny gear and then into a hard gear in the rear so I could shift down as I needed to. This worked MUCH better than in the past when I tried to stay in the middle chain for too long.


You will develop a better feel for it with practice......I actually tend to rely less on momentum with some of these steeper hills and more on choosing a gear at the outset that will allow me to set a sustainable pace up the hill. I do not keep the same cadence on those hills that I use on the flats. I would blow up if I tried to do that. Rather, I get in a relatively easy gear, take a deep breath and then just pace myself up, susatining a good balance between aerobic and power outputs.

This is what I tried to do in the steepest parts of the hill tonight - I WANT to mash gears and just need to break this tendency of mine where long hills are concerned... though this would indeed be easier clipped in...


mantra for hill climbing- to the song of Frer Jacques
we are climbing, we are climbing,
yes we are, yes we are
This is not a real hill, this is not a real hill,
No it's not, no ti's not.

when in dobut/downshift until you can't shift anymore and remember, as long as you are maintaining enough momentum to move forward, you are in balance and all is good.................marni

I like the mantra! I will try and remember it Saturday :)

Something funny about my ride tonight. I have only gone one direction on THAT hill since something like March. I've only gone north to south on it, never the other direction because something about the downhill side scared me. So I've carefully avoided it for 4 months and carefully ignored that I was avoiding it. However, with hitting far more significant hills this weekend, it seemed time to finally "face my fear" of that particular stretch of road.

I decided to do it very first thing after warming my legs up a little. Rode to the southern end of the road, turned north, and started downhill.... First bit was fine, good - kept reminding myself that "I" am in control of how fast I go downhill. Got through steeper climbs and short yet fastish curvy downhill bits - then I realized that I was at the bottom!

You see - I had remembered a section of the road where the pavement was raised in the middle of the lane and then dipped on both sides - and I wasn't in very good control of my bike in March the last time I went down that hill at 27 mph - and I had NO business going that fast 4 months ago!

The end of the story is that after 3 repeats of that side of the hill - I never could figure out which section of road had me so scared - and I did not allow my bike to go that fast either. There is a lesson here about facing your fears, for sure. I am glad that I did - even if it turned out that there was nothing to be afraid of :D

[DarcyInOregon]

Just one last comment on the GPS bike computer. It isn't bling for me and it is real annoying for someone to say it is. The cyclists I ride with all have one and they wouldn't have a decent training ride without one. I know it proved valuable to me when I was on a longer climb of 9% and my heart rate went to 163. My max heart rate is only 165-170, and I am a person who had open heart surgery to correct a defective heart valve when I was a baby, so I do not want my cardio heart rate to get that close to my max heart rate because I don't want that kind of stress on my heart. The 163 felt no different to me than a 150 heart rate, but because it showed up on my bike computer I was able to get to a flat spot, stop the bike, drink Cytomax for the electrolytes and wait for my heart rate to drop. I knew that this heart rate was abnormal for me, and thanks to my bike computer I did not have a serious medical problem. I understand that such computers are not important to everyone, but I do training rides versus recreational rides because I am always focused on a new cycling goal and such computers are an effective training tool for me and for the cyclists I know, and no, it isn't about speed for me, but distance. Just because other cyclists in this forum don't use one, it doesn't mean that other cyclists shouldn't contemplate getting one or be called a name for owning one.

Catrin, regarding the clipless pedals, for distance cycling the clipless pedals provide an efficiency of stroke that helps conserve energy and allows the cyclist to go more miles. The most likely outcome by using flat pedals, outside of the hill scenario, is you will reach a mile limit and you won't be able to get past it because of the body fatigue. I've known some cyclists who can get up to a metric using the flat pedals, then the next few days they are recovering from torn leg muscles and extreme body fatigue, and they are not able to reach the level of completing a century. Typically, every cyclist I've known who was new to clipless pedals clipped in and out a few times to make sure the cleats were positioned properly, then went off on a 20-mile ride, focusing carefully on the unclipping and clipping at each stop. By the end of one 20-mile ride the clipless pedals felt natural. If you are falling over, and it isn't due to a medical problem, then try again. One thing for certain is that when you do start using the clipless pedals, you will be upset with yourself that you didn't use the pedals from the get-go. Falling over is just falling over, and at most there is some road rash and a bruise or two. Falling over is unlikely to result in death or permanent injury.

[OakLeaf]

So you have a medical need for a HRM. HRMs are still a good training tool for people who don't have a medical need, and good ones can be had for under $100.

That's got nothing to do with whether Catrin needs a GPS or a bubble inclinometer.

I'm a gadget w****, I copped to it in the other thread. I have GPS. I love it. I do not need it. I am not a better climber because of it. I'm a better climber because I run, because I have decent shifting technique, and because I'm lighter than a lot of people I ride with. I AM much more confident about riding with my GPS, because without it I can get lost in a paper bag. That's all.

[Eden]

+1 Oak

I just got a powermeter - which I do think has made a difference in the way I ride. I shift more, I don't go into the hills too hot just to get my hr up to the zone I'm supposed to be training in, I don't slack in between climbs. Overall I think I'm steadier with my efforts.

I chose to get an Edge 500 because it did more than the Powertap head for the same or maybe even a bit less $$ and I have to admit I love it.... a little data overload, but oh boy its fun. I even like being able to see the gradient of the hills. Mostly because I'm sometimes surprised by what isn't actually a hill (though it looks like it) and by how steep something really is (when it doesn't seem steep at all...) But - knowing how steep something is doesn't make any difference in how I climb it. It's all about that steady power......

[lph]

The end of the story is that after 3 repeats of that side of the hill - I never could figure out which section of road had me so scared - and I did not allow my bike to go that fast either. There is a lesson here about facing your fears, for sure. I am glad that I did - even if it turned out that there was nothing to be afraid of :D

I just wanted to say that it is so cool reading about your riding experiences, because you obviously think about things, decide to challenge yourself, and write well about it afterwards. Inspiring and fun :)

[Catrin]

J One thing for certain is that when you do start using the clipless pedals, you will be upset with yourself that you didn't use the pedals from the get-go. Falling over is just falling over, and at most there is some road rash and a bruise or two. Falling over is unlikely to result in death or permanent injury.

Oh, I am pretty sure I won't be upset with myself about not switching sooner when I finally do so :rolleyes:

I had some pretty spectacular falls on those 3 days when I tried last time - even gave myself a small concussion and needed a new helmet :eek: I will try again when I am confident that my muscle memory is solid - right now I am breaking myself of a couple of bad habits - once I am sure that I've been successful and my muscle memory is "corrected" then I will try again. I learned a rather, umm, creative way to stop my bike and until that is changed clipping in is just not possible.


I just wanted to say that it is so cool reading about your riding experiences, because you obviously think about things, decide to challenge yourself, and write well about it afterwards. Inspiring and fun :)

Glad that it isn't boring - I don't mind laughing at myself :)

[Crankin]

I agree! Catrin, it is interesting to read of your adventures. It makes me wish I had written something down when i started, though I still remember many of the interesting things that happened on some of my rides.
Darcy, I am just not intense about the stuff you describe. If I was, I would hate riding. I don't ever look at it as training. It's just what I do. After ten years, I have to keep it fun. I've been exercising and been involved with fitness for over 30 years; after a good case of exercise obsession, weighing 92 pounds, and injuries galore, I know what will happen. Like Oakleaf, I am a pretty good climber (compared to the rest of my riding!), because I am light weight, I am good at shifting, and the piddly bit of running I do has really improved my fitness.
My DH has 2 GPS's (both are "old" now). The only reason he used them was so we didn't get lost and for like maybe a couple of weeks after he had 2 cardiac stents put in, making a feeble attempt to follow doctor's orders (yea, they told him not to ride hard, but after 8 days he was climbing the hills in Harvard, MA). A few people in my riding group have them, primarily for the same reason. They probably are looking at their stats, but I never hear them discuss it.

[Catrin]

For me, the attraction of a GPS is my tendency to just head out somewhere and see where I wind up - I am getting closer to doing this on the bike :) I also like the idea of being able to download gps points from a brevet route to aid in navigation - though I will never divorce myself from paper maps. My LHT's name is "The Wanderer" for good reason :D I wanted a more personal name than that, but short of naming him Magellan (hmmm) couldn't think of another name.

As far as the health stats - that is a good thing as well - I cannot generally tell when my HR gets up there until it is WAY too high. I like my Polar HRM just fine though - it will do until I can afford/justify the Garmin. The HRM helps to keep me honest - and I like that it tracks calories :)

[Becky]

For me, the attraction of a GPS is my tendency to just head out somewhere and see where I wind up - I am getting closer to doing this on the bike :) I also like the idea of being able to download gps points from a brevet route to aid in navigation

This is really the only reason that I even own a GPS. (Actually, it's DH's and fortunately so...I'd have chucked it into a ditch by now if it were solely mine.) When I'm out on my own in an unfamiliar area, I like having the map at hand while moving and knowing exactly where I am. Otherwise, I don't use it.

I'm a respectable climber, by virtue of being petite, in decent shape, and because I've trained to climb rather than for sprinting or for long stretches of high power. I'm not worth a d@mn when the road is flat or the wind is blowing.

This is a big ol' case of Your Mileage/Method May Vary. If you want the data, then by all means get the equipment to capture it. But don't feel like you're not a "real cyclist" if you don't have all the bells and whistles.

[trista]

One thing for certain is that when you do start using the clipless pedals, you will be upset with yourself that you didn't use the pedals from the get-go.

This is a broad generalization that really is not true for a lot of people. And I don't think it's a fair statement, especially to a relatively new cyclist. I may be new, but I've done enough cycling to tell you that not everyone loves clipless. Catrin is smart to wait until she has more experience on the bike to try going clipless again.

I go back and forth on the clipless.... right now I'm riding free and I LOVE IT. I don't struggle on hills, I maintain a steady, brisk cadence, and I'm not sore after a ride. I ride about 20 miles at a time and my goal is speed and heart rate above 80% of my MHR (I'm not a distance rider). When I ride free, my pace is faster and my workout is better.

I just don't agree at all with the statement above, and I respect Catrin for knowing what is working for her right now.

[Owlie]

Re: clipless pedals.
I got them a little over a month ago. I see the the advantages of using clipless. There are definitely times that I benefit from being attached to the bike. There are plenty of other times, though, that I could take it or leave it. Hills are one of them. I'm not going to be a "good" climber because I'm the wrong build, and I live in an area with exactly one hill.
Clipless can help, but it's not essential. It's not for everyone.
Going clipless from the start would have scared me off the bike, and I think many could say the same. I think we can all agree that riding, regardless of whether/how your feet are attached to the pedals, is better than not riding.

Gadgets: I like toys. I don't want to put toys on my bike. If I buy a GPS, the sole reason would be because half the time I couldn't find my way out of a wet paper bag. I have a bike computer, mostly for distance. It doesn't have a cadence function. While I like looking at numbers, I look at them for fun--I like to see how far and how fast I went, and note that I feel better after having done that than I did a month ago. I don't want to obsess over them. It takes all the fun out of it. I don't think it makes me less of a cyclist.

Catrin, not naming your bike Magellan was probably a good idea! ;)