Shifting advice

[Catrin]

I confess, I over-think things. That probably does not come as a surprise :o

I am trying to start getting fasting by working with my gearing as I ride more. I understand shifting, I've had a manual transmission all of my adult driving life. If you want to go faster, you go into a harder/higher gear. Makes perfect sense to me.

However, the more I try to push it in harder gears, my knees start to complain, and I do not want an over-use injury out of sheer stubbornness. I do that :o Sign me up for Stubborness Anonymous.

So how do I learn the right way to shift to gain speed without putting my knees at risk by trying to power through it? As a new cyclist my conditioning isn't there yet - but I can't figure out what I am doing incorrectly. Does this make sense?

[KatieJean]

Catrin, Your knees shouldn't complain from going into a harder gear. Your legs and lungs may not be able to sustain the effort, but your knees shouldn't be the first casualty. Is it possible that your saddle is too low or too far forward? Adjusting my saddle was what helped my knees when they started to complain.

But to answer your question, if you are spinning fast in a lower gear (you feel like you couldn't spin faster even if you wanted to), that's the time to go into a tougher gear. Just go up one gear at a time until you're spinning fast again, and then go into another harder gear.

Then, when you see that you will need to stop soon (a stop sign coming up, for example), go ahead and down shift one or two gears, so when you are ready to start up again, you will be in the easier gear. Soon, it will become second nature.

[Catrin]

Catrin, Your knees shouldn't complain from going into a harder gear. Your legs and lungs may not be able to sustain the effort, but your knees shouldn't be the first casualty. Is it possible that your saddle is too low or too far forward? Adjusting my saddle was what helped my knees when they started to complain.

But to answer your question, if you are spinning fast in a lower gear (you feel like you couldn't spin faster even if you wanted to), that's the time to go into a tougher gear. Just go up one gear at a time until you're spinning fast again, and then go into another harder gear.

Then, when you see that you will need to stop soon (a stop sign coming up, for example), go ahead and down shift one or two gears, so when you are ready to start up again, you will be in the easier gear. Soon, it will become second nature.

My bike is fit properly as far as the saddle/seat post and so forth is concerned - we just went through this rather lengthy process that involved a rather expensive conversion.

I should have explained further. I am not clipped in, so it is difficult for me to spin - I mash gears. In order to gain more speed, I mash harder gears :) I've been told that I really don't have the option to spin properly as long as I am not clipped in because I can't push/pull throughout the full pedal stroke. I've been told that I have a good pedal stroke from someone who just recently rode with me.

I am trying to focus on cadence, and to keep it between 80-85 on the flats and at least in the 70's when possible uphill. That latter is a goal at this point :) It is on the flats that I notice the most pressure on my knees - which doesn't make much sense to me unless I need to work with a lower cadence for now :confused:

[Jiffer]

Well, you dispelled the two thoughts I had. Seat adjustment and pedaling too slowly. If you are at 80-85, that shouldn't be slow enough to cause knee problems. A friend of mine used to climb hills all in her big ring, which meant a pretty slow cadence, even though she climbed pretty fast. Eventually she started complaining that her knees were bothering her, so she learned to make herself go into her small ring on steeper hills and spin faster.

She, however, was clipped in. And that could be part of your knee troubles. Is there a reason you don't clip in? Are you working toward that as a goal or do you never intend to? Your knees are working a lot harder than they would if you were engaging the pedal all the way around the stroke. So, it makes sense to me that this is your problem.

As for seat position, hopefully your expensive conversion resulted in the proper fit for you. If your seat is too low, it can cause problems on the top of the knee. If it's too high, you can have problems behind the knee (which I have experienced).

So, if you are sure the bike fit is fine, and you aren't pedaling super slow, my guess is the lack of clipless pedals.

As for getting faster, it's not always about being in a harder gear. Spinning faster in an easier gear makes you go faster as well. You'll figure it out as you go. Of course, it's probably harder to spin any faster than 85 without clipping in.

[lph]

I would say that the point of shifting gears is to stay in a comfortable and efficient cadence as the terrain changes, not necessarily to go faster. I've never measured cadence, but I have a feeling that once I'm up to "cruising speed" I shift mainly to stay within a quite narrow cadence range. As soon as knees or anything start complaining that's no longer a good cadence, so I shift down. If I want to go faster I start pedalling faster, then shift up as soon as it starts feeling inefficient.

I rode for many years with plain flat pedals and softsoled running shoes. I'd never go back, but at the time I felt I had a pretty efficient pedal stroke, pulling the pedal back as far as I could "grab" it. I like my spds, but mostly because I don't slip off them sidewise, not because I'm really good at using the upward stroke.

[Catrin]

Well, you dispelled the two thoughts I had. Seat adjustment and pedaling too slowly. If you are at 80-85, that shouldn't be slow enough to cause knee problems....

She, however, was clipped in. And that could be part of your knee troubles. Is there a reason you don't clip in? ...

So, if you are sure the bike fit is fine, and you aren't pedaling super slow, my guess is the lack of clipless pedals.....

As for getting faster, it's not always about being in a harder gear. Spinning faster in an easier gear makes you go faster as well. You'll figure it out as you go. Of course, it's probably harder to spin any faster than 85 without clipping in.

I do think the bike fit is fine - and the knee pressure basically only comes when I am in the lowest cog on the middle ring. I like the big ring as well, but I am not in the lowest cog there.

I can spin as fast as 92-94 - but that almost seems too fast? Perhaps it isn't, but right now the mid-80's seems more comfortable. Will work with it more of course. My trainer is concerned that I am trying to power through harder gears than I should be using and will cause myself an over-use injury.


I would say that the point of shifting gears is to stay in a comfortable and efficient cadence as the terrain changes, not necessarily to go faster. I've never measured cadence, but I have a feeling that once I'm up to "cruising speed" I shift mainly to stay within a quite narrow cadence range. As soon as knees or anything start complaining that's no longer a good cadence, so I shift down. If I want to go faster I start pedalling faster, then shift up as soon as it starts feeling inefficient.

This is a helpful way to explain it - I am probably worrying too much about speed - I need to focus on cadence, doing my intervals once a week, and being patient while getting quality riding time. I do like to "mash" gears, I like the feeling of digging into the gear.

I did try to go clipless earlier this year but had major problems :eek: Eventually I will try it again, but I am not yet there.

[PscyclePath]

Catrin:

Two quick notes: The derailleurs only shift when the drive train is in motion (e.g., while you're pedaling); and they won't shift well if the drivetrain is under a heavy load. So, when you hit the shifters, keep spinning the pedals for a time or two until you feel it shift, and if you're cranking up a hill, ease off the pressure on the pedals until the gears shift, then you can pick back up again.

The big idea about shifting gears is to be able to keep up about the same pedal pressure or level of effort, as you roll along, even going up or down hill. You shouldn't have to be mashing a great big gear unless you're into strength training; drop down a gear or two until you can spin alongwith about the same pedal pressure as before you hit the hill, only at a higher cadence. Let the mechanical adantage of the lower gear do the work for you...

[indysteel]

I do think some of this will come in time as you gain strength, conditioning and confidence. I would also suggest adding some cadence drills into your interval routine. Having ridden with you, you do have a nice spin, even without the benefit of clipless pedals (although I think they, too, will ultimately help). My guess, however, is that you could spin a bit faster with some practice. That will help you build better aerobic capacity, too, which is a necessary building block for speed work.

All that said, I would strongly encourage you to just ride. In my experience, there's only so much you can work on at one time. Between bike handling, endurance and distance,you already have a lot to focus on. I know you already know this, but try to remember and accept that it will take take more than one season to meet all of your goals. So, be patient, grasshopper! :)

[Catrin]

I do think some of this will come in time as you gain strength, conditioning and confidence. I would also suggest adding some cadence drills into your interval routine. Having ridden with you, you do have a nice spin, even without the benefit of clipless pedals (although I think they, too, will ultimately help). My guess, however, is that you could spin a bit faster with some practice. That will help you build better aerobic capacity, too, which is a necessary building block for speed work.

All that said, I would strongly encourage you to just ride. In my experience, there's only so much you can work on at one time. Between bike handling, endurance and distance,you already have a lot to focus on. I know you already know this, but try to remember and accept that it will take take more than one season to meet all of your goals. So, be patient, grasshopper! :)

This is true - being somewhat of an obsess...errrrr...focused and stubborn woman I tend to expect too much out of myself (limitations? what's that?) I have an entire 600 miles under my belt, and seem to be progressing so I am certainly not complaining.

I am certainly riding as much as I can, and greatly enjoying every minute of it. This isn't something that I can "think through" but to simply do/be. As hard as that sometimes is for me it is also a very good thing.

Psyclepath - thanks for your advice. I guess what gets me to start mashing big gears is that when I down-shift to maintain a certain cadence my speed, of course, drops. I have to get it through my head that right now endurance is more important than speed...I have a natural heavy foot when driving, so this is likely related :rolleyes:

I am assuming that cadence drills is where you focus on maintaining a particular cadence for a period of time/distance, regardless of the terrain? I tried to do that on my long ride Saturday, but wound up getting frustrated with my speed and started mashing away...

Thanks for the advice!

[indysteel]

I am assuming that cadence drills is where you focus on maintaining a particular cadence for a period of time/distance, regardless of the terrain? I tried to do that on my long ride Saturday, but wound up getting frustrated with my speed and started mashing away...

There's a couple of suggestions here for cadence drills (note the high cadence drill and spin up drill): http://www.energyfitnesscoaching.com/article.cfm?id=180

I would pick relatively flat areas to do these. And turn off the speedometer. This isn't about speed; it's about technique snd conditioning. As you get used to spinning at a higher cadence, you will likely find yourself getting faster. You will also increase your efficiency and endurance and put less strain on your knees.

[ny biker]

The big idea about shifting gears is to be able to keep up about the same pedal pressure or level of effort, as you roll along, even going up or down hill. You shouldn't have to be mashing a great big gear unless you're into strength training; drop down a gear or two until you can spin alongwith about the same pedal pressure as before you hit the hill, only at a higher cadence. Let the mechanical adantage of the lower gear do the work for you...


I second this.

The advice I was given by my trainer lo those many years ago was: shift to stay within your cadence range. I usually pedal around 90 rpm. Although for me this goes out the window when I go up difficult hills, at which point I drop to as low as 50 rpm as needed to stave off an asthma attack. But otherwise I shift to maintain cadence, even if that means going slower when I shift down.

If I'm trying to work on speed I will do it gradually, shifting up only one gear. But I will shift down again if my knee starts to hurt (patella tracking problem), and I only do it for short periods, basically as interval training.

[Crankin]

When I first got a cadence sensor, my average cadence was about 72. It's now mostly between 80 and 90, unless I am going up longer or steep climbs. How did I improve? By basically trying to maintain my speed and "rhythm" in the easiest possible gear I could use. So, at the point where you can "feel" the pedals, but you are not bouncing around on the saddle. At first, it was hard. And the above advice is right... focus on cadence and not speed. Mashing really hurts my knees and this is also why I don't stand very much.
I was on a group ride, going up some pretty hard climbs (the ride had about 2500 feet of climbing in 35 miles) a couple of months ago and some guy asked me how I trained to spin up a hill at a higher cadence. I had to think (of course he asked me this as I was ascending a 12% grade hill) and finally I said that I didn't really train, it's how I ride, naturally. But, I know at one point, I did make an effort to improve my cadence and now it just seems more comfortable this way. A lot of people in this group seem to think that using a harder gear makes them "tougher" and they eventually start mashing and fall behind me, who is not that fast!

[Catrin]

I just came in from a 20 mile ride in lovely cool temps with no humidity! Such a nice relief - and I finally got chased by dogs but this isn't the thread for that :eek:

I tried to keep everyone's advice in the back of my mind and started experimenting. First I tried to turn off my "internal speedometer" and to ignore the real one as much as I could - to pay more attention to how my legs actually felt and to my cadence. I noted a couple of things that were interesting:

1. My knees were far happier with the big chain than small or middle - this was something of a surprise! I wound up, outside of the up-side of a couple of quite steep rollers - in the big chain and in 3 or 4 in the rear.

2. My cadence, outside of climbing those steep rollers, was over 90 much of the time!

3. As I downshifted on the upside of the rollers, my cadence was certainly better than in the past - though no faster - ummm- scratch this as I am supposed to ignore speedometer...

4. My trainer, and all of you very experienced and knowledgeable women were all correct! Not that I doubted that for one instant..

The problem, if there is one, is due to almost always riding by myself. I learn bad habits that way...

5. My knees feel much better than my last ride - though they didn't feel all that bad.

Oh yes, for some strange reason, this happened twice. When I was on the big chain and shifted the rear from 2 down to 1, I was suddenly in the middle chain. This did not make sense, but it shifted back to the big ring without a problem...