Saddle, shorts or lube?

[jenniferh]

I am just back from my first ride on my new trek 1.5. I've been riding on a hybrid, but decided to move to a road bike. It was also my first ride in cycling shorts. I got the PI Attach shorts and my sit bones feel fine, but my soft tissue is burning. It almost feels torn but I've never chaffed there before so it could just be chaffing. I rode about 20 min and I'm guessing 3-4 mi. I would have gone farther, but my hands were getting tired on the hoods and my crotch wasn't feeling so great.

So where do I start? Is it a seat issue, would some chaffing creme solve the problem or is it the shorts? When I was fitted for the bike I had on teh same shorts except I had on underwear (I wasn't sure I was keeping the shorts yet) and I rode about 20 min off and on and there were no problems.

[Owlie]

I had a similar problem when I first bought my bike. You say your wrists hurt. Do you notice yourself putting more weight on your wrists? I did that when I got the bike, and it was definitely a saddle issue--it went away when I replaced the stock saddle.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

[jenniferh]

I was paying special attention to my posture...slightly bent elbows to absorb the vibration, wrists not bent weird, back straight/flat. It was actually the spot between my pointer finger and thumb that was getting tired. It wasn't painful, it just felt more like a spot that had never been used to support my weight before. Between my shoulders was getting a little tired too. I just think those spots need a little more workout to strengthen them. The only real pain was my girly parts...they are still burning. I'm reading through old threads and wondering if I just need chamois creme?

[jenniferh]

Or could it be my shorts are too big? They fit around my thigs, but the rise is a little too high, but not uncomfortable but there is a little but on bunching in the back right above teh chamois. And when I walk I can feel the chamois move around a bit. Does that mean they are too big?

[rubywagon]

My Trek came stock with a Bontrager saddle, aka the most disliked saddle ever. From what you described above, it also sounds like your shorts are a little big. I hope you find some relief.

[Owlie]

The chamois cream is the cheap solution. Try that, then try a few different shorts, then I guess try changing the saddle. Again, your mileage may vary--this stuff is very individualistic.

[loopybunny]

I have the same bike as you (well... mine isn't a WSD and it is a 2009, so I don't know if it's exactly the same), and when I first started riding it after riding a mountain bike, I was having issues with tingling/numbness in the girly parts.

When I bought the bike, I had my sitbones measured to make sure I had the right size saddle, which it was. After a few rides, the discomfort pretty much stopped. I only have issues now if it's a longer ride on flat rough roads.

Give it a few more rides and perhaps try new shorts.

Just an odd note on the PI shorts... I have two pair that are different years of the "same" style short. The pad is different in both of them. I actually like the older ones better chamois wise, but the new ones fit better.

[jenniferh]

I have the 2010, but I actually got the men's version. The WSD were sold out and I liked it the best of all teh wother WSD bikes I tried.

It sounds like I need to get smaller shorts and some creme. Then I'll get used to the bike and then see about a new saddle. The LBS said I should give it about 20-30 miles to get used to the bike and then tweak the fit I already have.

[OakLeaf]

Does your saddle fit you? Start there. A new saddle - even very slightly different - can completely change the way you sit on a bike, so I don't see any point to getting fitted until you've got a saddle you can ride on for a few thousand miles.

[jenniferh]

I was fitted on the bike already - seat position, height, reach etc - and at the bike shop it all felt great. Of course, I was wearing the extra layer of underwear thinking I might not keep the shorts. Took the underwear off today and within 30 min I have chaffing. The seat itself feels comfortable. My sit bones are nicely supported. There is some pressure on the front, but I'll probably end up switching to cut-outs, but I need to figure out this chafing first.

[KnottedYet]

The men's stock Bontrager saddle is not famous for being fabulous.

If a saddle fits, you can wear just about anything and ride for 20 minutes. You could even ride naked.

Before you start spending money, get into a pair of regular ol' shorts (like you wear out hiking) and regular ol' underwear and ride for 20 minutes.

Does it feel better than the 20 minutes you rode earlier? If yes, the problem is the shorts.

If it feels worse, the problem could well be the saddle (no longer masked by the chamois)

Riding 20 minutes off and on using a trainer stand and getting a fitting is a completely different animal than riding your bike outside for 20 minutes. Don't use that in your data.

Tingling and burning and numbness are usually symptoms of nerve compression. If you already feel pressure at the front, and you're also getting nerve compression signs along the pudendal nerve distribution that persist after you get off the bike.... well, that's a problem. Most likely a weightbearing problem.

What is your outside-to-outside ischial tuberosity span? Is the men's saddle you're using at least a cm or two wider than that? What is your center-to-center span? Are the centers of the saddle cheeks the same span? Is the saddle the typical pear contour of most men's saddles? It could well be causing you to gradually move forward onto the narrower portion of the saddle as you ride, if you really need something more T shaped.

Whatever you are sitting on, if it is a too-narrow saddle or a too-narrow portion of a pear saddle, will cause you distress if it's making you weightbear on your pelvic floor or roll forward onto the pubic rami.

[malkin]

Can you try the saddle from your old bike on your new bike?

The change in geometry might make it not-the-perfect-saddle, but it could give you a little more information about what is happening.

[KnottedYet]

Can you try the saddle from your old bike on your new bike?

The change in geometry might make it not-the-perfect-saddle, but it could give you a little more information about what is happening.

Yeah, try that, too! There are a lot of things you can look at *before* you start spending money.

[tctrek]

If your Trek has one of those padded Bontrager saddles, I would bet money that is at least one of your issues. But too much leaning on your hands and pain between your shoulder blades could also be bike fit... I'm no fitting expert, but you shouldn't have that much discomfort on a 20 minute ride.

I have 2 Treks and even the Bontrager saddle on my Madone was a "gotta go". Pretty white saddle, but no way could I ride on it.

[TrekTheKaty]

I have a 2.1 and my first ride was on the stock Bontrager saddle (DH said, "try it. You might like it. It's white. It looks cool. BLAH) 40 miles and I couldn't ride for a week.

Ditch the saddle immediately.

PS. Hopefully, KnottedYet was kidding about riding naked. Don't try that. Not for amateurs (I've heard).

[lo123]

I have 2 Treks and even the Bontrager saddle on my Madone was a "gotta go". Pretty white saddle, but no way could I ride on it.

Ditto. I HATE the Bontrager that came on my Madone. It's evil in my opinion :D

ultimately, saddles are a very personal decision though, so I'm sure there's somebody out there somewhere that actually likes the Bontrager saddle.

[jenniferh]

Thanks for the help everyone! I went today and tried on a bunch of new shorts. I realized my were WAY to big. I bought XL (I normally wear a US14). When I tried on the L and even a M they fit so much better. I went from feeling like I had a towel between my legs to just feeling like a form fitting padding. I ultimately bought the Terry Bella to try.

I'll go out tomorrow and try riding in regular shorts for a bit and see how everything feels. I'd switch to my hybrid saddle, but I hate it. It is a Terry Liberator and it is ok for teh first 5mi, but then it makes my girly tissue numb. I need to replace it, but I was planning on making that my "ride around teh neighborhood with the kids" bike so I'm going to get a huge cruiser padded seat.

Someone asked my outside-to-outside ischial tuberosity span?

I don't know...I don't have any pain in my sit bones. They feel supported and so I'm guessing that is pretty good fit. I did catch myself scooting back on the seat to ease the pressure on the front.

I'm going to try riding in street clothes tomorrow. If all is well then I'll test out the new shorts. If all is still well then I'll concider a new saddle next. I'm pretty sure when I start doing longer rides I'll want one since the stock saddle seems to be so hated :)

[KnottedYet]

Someone asked my outside-to-outside ischial tuberosity span?

I don't know...I don't have any pain in my sit bones. They feel supported and so I'm guessing that is pretty good fit. I did catch myself scooting back on the seat to ease the pressure on the front.


You wouldn't have pain in your sit bones from a poor saddle fit.
You would have pain in your vulvar area.

If you are scooting back to ease pressure off the front of your crotch, something about your saddle is wrong.

If you sit on a kitchen chair, does your vulva hurt after 20 minutes? Do you have burning pain sitting on a kitchen chair? When you stand up from a kitchen chair, does your crotch continue to hurt for hours?

No? That's because when you sit on a hard chair your weight is on your sit bones. A bike saddle that fits and is set up right should be no more uncomfortable than a hard kitchen chair. Your weight should be on the bones, just like it always is (they are tough).

Don't be frightened of measuring your own pelvis. It's easy.

After you get your measurements, check the cut-out test.

Terry Liberator shouldn't make you numb after 5 miles. No saddle should make you numb. The Terry doesn't fit you either. Either it's too narrow, or it's too pear shaped and you scooted forward on the Terry just like you did on the Bontrager. Terrys are notorious for being pear-shaped. (They are also sometimes over-padded, which can cause problems as well.)

[Trek420]

..... I'm sure there's somebody out there somewhere that actually likes the Bontrager saddle.

.... but I've never met one :rolleyes: ;)

But seriously saddle preference is a very personal thing. My fave LBS offers a "no questions asked saddle exchange", love it or exchange it. I'm fickle and have changed favorite saddles over the years. With bike and saddle fit the ride's always been pain free.

[tiva]

Don't be frightened of measuring your own pelvis. It's easy.


Can you give me a link for doing this? I've tried and I keep getting different numbers.

I'm also having a problem with saddle pain--not on my vulva, but on the inside of my left sitz bone. I've tried 3 different saddles, different seat positions (slightly forward, slightly tipped down), and different shorts, and it's getting better, but it's not yet great. My old squishy serfa cutout on my hybrid bike feels just fine, however!

[Trek420]

Can you give me a link for doing this? I've tried and I keep getting different numbers.

Start with the "Read me first" file of TE saddle threads ;) :p

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=25954

[tzvia]

Boy, so many good responses and ideas here already and I think you are on the right track. Start with making sure you have comfortable pants/shorts. If using lycra shorts, they should fit (and I see you are good there now.) In winter, I can commute to work in jeans but in summer when it's hot I sweat and need to wear shorts with chamois to keep from chaffing.

You had an initial fit to the bike, so that gave you a good starting point.

Your stock saddle may be part of the problem (yea I agree with the others here on that one). The stock Bontrager saddles are too padded and not too comfy (they are not the much better Inform-and even those in WSD are way too padded IMO). More padding does not always mean more comfort, is is usually just the opposite. You don't want to sink in like on an old couch. That's not support.

Did you try your old saddle on the new bike yet?

Another thing to be conscious of when riding: how you sit. On most flat-bar type bikes, you are more upright, which puts you on the sit-bones and not the soft tissue. When put on a road bike with drop bars, it is easy to make the mistake of rolling the hips back to get bent down to reach the bars, basically flat back and levering down as opposed to sitting like on the flat-bar bike and bending at the lower back. This takes some getting used to, and good core strength to support yourself on the bones and not collapse your weight on to your hands. Rolling the hips back puts your soft parts on the saddle and can cause burning/chaffing/numbness.

[KnottedYet]

I'm also having a problem with saddle pain--not on my vulva, but on the inside of my left sitz bone. I've tried 3 different saddles, different seat positions (slightly forward, slightly tipped down), and different shorts, and it's getting better, but it's not yet great. My old squishy serfa cutout on my hybrid bike feels just fine, however!

Asymmetry is always fun to deal with...

Freebie Option - try rotating the saddle, pointing the nose slightly left or slightly right. Depending on why that left sitz is getting wolloped, it could be either direction, so I'd just try both. You'll know in a hurry if you make it worse!

Time and Tools Option - move the squishy saddle (which probably gives under the wolloping side) to every bike you ride

$100 Option - buy another squishy Serfas saddle or two if the Serfas is perfect on every bike, or buy a "pure" leather saddle that will gradually shape itself to your asymmetrical heinie/hip action.

(of course, this is assuming you've already done all your measurements and the saddles you are on truly fit, and the problem isn't just that the saddles you've been using are a touch narrow so your body has been shifting a bit to the left and putting all your weight on the right sitz, leaving your left to grind against the saddle edge. We often see that, where a woman can really only get one sitz completely supported on a narrow perch while riding, so the body chooses one and leaves the other flapping in the breeze. ALWAYS MEASURE FIRST!)

[jenniferh]

I did like suggested and just got back from a short ride in my normal athletic shorts (the kind you wear for running) and regular underwear. My labia/vulva were totally smooshed. They felt like they were being pushed to the sides becuase the seat was in the way. That led to burning, but no numbness. My sit bones still feel good. I have the beginning of a little chaffing on the lips but I didn't ride long enough for it to become actual chafing.

So...I think that means, from what you are saying, that my saddle is a big part of the problem. I'm going to run up to the lbs today and try a couple of new saddles with a cut out and without and more t-shaped.

I also tried keeping my back a little more rounded. The first time I rode I was aiming for board flat and the curve helped eliminate the shoulder blade pain. I think I was pushing my shoulders back the first time.

The spot between my thumb and index finger where it holds the hoods still feels sore, but I'm guessing that just needs time to adapt to the new bike.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[KnottedYet]

So...I think that means, from what you are saying, that my saddle is a big part of the problem. I'm going to run up to the lbs today and try a couple of new saddles with a cut out and without and more t-shaped.


Measure you sit bones before you go.

Going saddle shopping without even knowing the two basic spans of your ischial tuberosities is about as good an idea as randomly buying shoes without knowing what size your feet are.

Measure. Your. Bones.

Chances are very good that your size 14 butt hides a larger pelvis than your size 6 friend's perky little tush. And a larger pelvis than the "average" used for saddle design.

Cut-out or t-shape won't matter one bit if your ischial tuberosities are not COMPLETELY supported by the saddle AS YOU RIDE.

Measure. Your. Sit. Bones. First.

If you had much larger than average feet, would you expect to be able to wear your friend's size 6 shoes without any problems? Would you be trying different socks to make the fit better? Would you go for size 6 shoes with a cut-out (aka "sandals") hoping they would hurt less before you even considered measuring your feet?

Touching your own butt with a tape measure isn't a sin. We don't even take our clothes off to do it.

(touching random stranger's buns could get you into some trouble, however)

Size 14 is big. That's a big butt. I'm a size 16, so I can be honest here and tell you your butt is big. Your pelvis probably isn't little, either. (huge butts can have little sit bones and vice versa, but chances are good that you really need to measure because you might be outside the norm.)

Measure.
Your.
Sit bones.
Before.
You.
Spend.
More.
Money.

[KnottedYet]

I did like suggested and just got back from a short ride in my normal athletic shorts (the kind you wear for running) and regular underwear. My labia/vulva were totally smooshed. They felt like they were being pushed to the sides becuase the seat was in the way. That led to burning, but no numbness. My sit bones still feel good. I have the beginning of a little chaffing on the lips but I didn't ride long enough for it to become actual chafing.

The saddle is too narrow, so you are weighbearing on the pelvic floor and the pubic arch. Your vulvar tissues are being pushed to the sides because you are jamming that saddle up your crack until it hits something and stops. It's missing your sit bones and lodging in the gradually narrowing angle of your pubis.

A picture is worth a thousand words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvis

[ny biker]

The spot between my thumb and index finger where it holds the hoods still feels sore, but I'm guessing that just needs time to adapt to the new bike.

I don't think this problem will be solved with time, either. Are you wearing gloves with thick padding? I actually find that thinner padding is more comfortable. Also I used to have big problems with hand pain before I went for a fit adjustment at the LBS and they tilted my handlebars up a bit.

[Catrin]

(touching random stranger's buns could get you into some trouble, however)



I know this is a serious topic, but this made me laugh out loud - thankfully I wasn't taking a drink when I read this. I just got the wildest image - the attack of the masked measuring-tape bandit :p

[Trek420]

I just got the wildest image - the attack of the masked measuring-tape bandit :p

Yes! The return of the masked tape measuring bandit. :p Last seen riding off into the sunset wielding a tape measure and carrying a satchel of assorted saddles (none of them Bontrager). ;)

[Catrin]

Yes! The return of the masked tape measuring bandit. :p Last seen riding off into the sunset wielding a tape measure and carrying a satchel of assorted saddles (none of them Bontrager). ;)

LOL, yep!

On a side note, I seem to be the only one on this forum who has had no noticeable discomfort with her stock Trek saddle - which is of course a Bontrager. We will see what happens when I take my first really long ride on the Trek - assuming I ever do. The LHT just feels so much better overall....

[jenniferh]

Thank you, thank you everyone. I actually felt like I knew what I was doing at the lbs today. I measured my sit bones before I went. I used the damp flour in a zip lock bag method someone mentioned in another thread. I wasn't exactly sur where on the curve to measure so I used the widest part. It was 13cm so I added 1cm to each side. That makes 15cm or 150mm. That means I should be in a 155mm saddle, right?

I planned to buy both the San Marco Salle gel flow diva lady and the San Marco Aspide Glamour so I could test the different shapes and the cut-out, but they only had the diva in stock so I got that one first. Brought it home, put it on the bike...

and it was FABULOUS! I rode the exact same path I had been taking in the stock saddle but with no burning or chafing. A tiny bit of pressure on the nose which hits just about even with tissue over my clit, but it wasn't painful. I'm not sure how it would feel on a long ride, but for now it is a good start.

I did a ride with athletic shorts and then another ride in my cycling shorts. Of corse, the cycling shorts felt best, but I was okay in street clothes too.

And I think a properly fitting saddle solved other things too. There was absolutely no pain in my hand and no pain between my shoulder blades. I wonder if I was tensing up or or baring weight differently since the saddle was hurting? No matter what, now that I can at least ride in relative comfort I can break in the bike and try a few other saddles til I find the best fit.

[KnottedYet]

Hooray!!!

I sort of thought you might be shifting weight to your hands because of that saddle. Excellent job figuring out your size!

Now the world of saddles is your oyster!

Congratulations!

[GrandPrix]

specifically asking this of knottedyet since she seems to know so much

i have pelvic floor issues, lichen sclerosus and vestibulitis - the last 2 are under control more or less but the pelvic floor issues are currently being worked out in PT....

i LOVE cycling and am off the bike as of last week by order of my PT to let things calm down -

when i get back on the bike...how do i tell if the seat supports muscle or bone? what if i squirm around too much on it - sometimes i feel comfy and other times not?

ever heard of a custom saddle maker? i had heard about this from a friend....

thanks
: ) n

[KnottedYet]

specifically asking this of knottedyet since she seems to know so much

i have pelvic floor issues, lichen sclerosus and vestibulitis - the last 2 are under control more or less but the pelvic floor issues are currently being worked out in PT....

i LOVE cycling and am off the bike as of last week by order of my PT to let things calm down -

: ) n

Measure your sit bones.

Seriously. I work in pelvic rehab AND do bike fits. I'm totally obsessed with saddle fit and what a poor fit does to women.

I really hope your PT has advanced training in pelvic floor work. (trained by Kathe Wallace is a good sign, and yes, it's spelled "Kathe"). It would also be nice if they were trained in bike fitting (Michael Sylvester, Andy Pruitt, or Eric Moen are very good names, and teach all across the US.) I would also be ecstatic if your PT was cognizant of coccygeal dysfunction/derangement. Sounds like you've got it.

I think before you spring for a custom saddle, you really need to first find a commercial one that fits you. I do have to wonder if you have wider sit bones than can be supported by the saddles you've used, and your coccyx is getting wolloped via the tendons that anchor there because the saddles you've been on cause you to weightbear on the tendons of the floor rather than on the ischial tuberosities.

I could be completely wrong...:cool:

But please measure your sit bones! :D

(ETA: I assume you've already been cleared of celiac disease for the L.S.)

[KnottedYet]

Just realized part of my post probably didn't make sense.
Chronic vestibulitis and vulvodynia (and often even cystitis) have mechanical causes. Very often the cause is a coccygeal derangement, which makes all the tensions "off" in the pelvic floor.

(Imagine a group of people holding a parachute nice a taut, then one of them pulls extra hard on his bit and knocks everyone else off balance, distorts the parachute, and puts big wrinkles into it. That bad boy is the coccyx. Now the parachute doesn't work right. And it gets irritated.)

Vestibulitis plus diagnosed pelvic floor dysfunction is a big red flashing sign for a mechanical problem. LS is more an autoimmune issue, which can be kicked into high gear by the other two. But you want to rule out the standard autoimmune problems for that one first.

Your PT has pulled you from riding, thinking the saddle of the bike is contributing to the problem. Mechanical contribution time. Measure your sit bones.

[GrandPrix]

hello again - replying to "knotted yet"

slowly getting better....although still some issues - but much improved

my PT seems quite knowledgeable...which is nice...

my sitbones were measured on some sit squish pad and aren't that wide - more narrow actually, i believe around 138-140

my PT has noticed some issues with my coccyx....and also my hip capsule - currently doing lots of stretches from Amy Stein's book as well as a few others my PT put in there just for me...

i also am trying a new saddle these days - i got the test version...it is called the selle SMP - heard of it? HUGE cutout which allows lots of air flow and very little pressure on vulva or perineum which is nice....

sit bones are sore though...guess that takes some getting used to?

knotted yet - you live on west coast? would be nice to have someone like you on the east coast....none of my docs/PTs are cyclists....so i just figure the cycling out as i go....

[Groundhog]

Measure your sit bones.

Seriously. I work in pelvic rehab AND do bike fits. I'm totally obsessed with saddle fit and what a poor fit does to women.

I really hope your PT has advanced training in pelvic floor work. (trained by Kathe Wallace is a good sign, and yes, it's spelled "Kathe"). It would also be nice if they were trained in bike fitting (Michael Sylvester, Andy Pruitt, or Eric Moen are very good names, and teach all across the US.) I would also be ecstatic if your PT was cognizant of coccygeal dysfunction/derangement. Sounds like you've got it.

I think before you spring for a custom saddle, you really need to first find a commercial one that fits you. I do have to wonder if you have wider sit bones than can be supported by the saddles you've used, and your coccyx is getting wolloped via the tendons that anchor there because the saddles you've been on cause you to weightbear on the tendons of the floor rather than on the ischial tuberosities.

I could be completely wrong...:cool:

But please measure your sit bones! :D

(ETA: I assume you've already been cleared of celiac disease for the L.S.)

KnottedYet, I'm always so happy when medical personnel are cognizant about the inpact of celiac and its interaction with other conditions. I have celiac and I swear that docs just think it's a "food-allergy" instead of an autoimmune disease that impacts many body systems and causes or interacts with many other conditions. Kudos to you to mentioning it!