noseless saddles and the quest for comfort?

[WolfGirl]

Hello folks,

I'm new and am perusing the posts on saddles, but haven't found info on noseless ones yet. I'm riding a 2008 Trek 7.5 WSD and recently ditched the stock saddle for a Planet Bike ARS saddle after even short rides were making me numb in my soft tissue area. The ARS is better, but yesterday I biked a mere 6 miles (although I was with my 6-year-old son, so it was a lot of time on the bike) and today I'm STILL in pain on the outer soft tissues. Before purchasing the ARS I tried the EasySeat noseless seat but it jammed into the backs of my thighs no matter how the (very patient) guy at the bike shop adjusted it. I was pretty discouraged about this, and since noseless saddles tend to have to be ordered online, I'm reluctant to try others, although I'm interested in the Moon Saddle, maybe.

My question is: does anyone actually like noseless saddles? Are they dangerous? How does one actually find a pain-free saddle? I adore biking and love my bike; it's a treat to be on the road after so many years and my son is VERY into it too. I just can't take the soft-tissue (that's where all the pressure is) pain anymore. :( Any help is appreciated, and I'll keep reading!

[Biciclista]

I understand you have a loss of control because we use our thighs a lot more than we realize for balance and steering.
However there are those that swear by them.


Welcome to TE!

[trichick]

Wolfgirl,

I have been a triathlete and cyclist for about four years and I wouldn't ride my road bike without my noseless saddle. Prior to getting it, I was in serious discomfort on short rides, and long rides were miserable. I was standing on the bike on flats just to give my soft tissue relief. I no longer have that problem, thanks to my noseless saddle and I can ride for as long as my legs are willing. I will tell you that some people may say they can tell a difference in noseless vs. traditional saddles. I'd disagree. I am not very coordinated and my balance is not good (I'm not one of those cyclists that can ride hands free...if I did, I'd be on the ground), so if anyone would have issues adjusting to a noseless saddle, I'd suspect it would be me. But that wasn't the case. I found the bike cornered, climbed and did all other cycling activities just the same. Within a couple of short rides, I didn't even notice the nose was missing. I'd suggest you have a professional bike shop that specializes in fitting riders mount the saddle. I did that and was glad I did (vs. mounting it myself). Also, the bike shop fit expert told me that if I did have any issues adjusting to cornering, to use the top bar and I wouldn't miss the nose on the saddle. I never have needed to use my top bar. The bike rides the same for me as it did with a traditional saddle, minus the pain, of course.

A Google search for noseless saddles will likely get you to a variety of sites that sell a range of shapes, sizes, etc. What I will tell you about noseless saddles, is that it's very much like dating...you may have to check out a few styles/models before you find true love. I did that, and fell in love with the SpiderFlex. You can find it at www.spiderflex.com. For me, this saddle was the perfect fit. Here's why. I'm a small woman, 4'10" with a narrow/thin frame. This saddle is ideal for my body style, but I think a taller and wider woman might find it comfortable too because it gives good support but isn't extremely wide like some versions made for recreational riding that look more like a tractor seat. The other thing I like about the SpiderFlex saddle is that it works for road and mountain or hybrid bikes by adjusting the angle of the saddle when you mount it to the bike. Many noseless saddles seem to only work for road or mountain/hybrid, but not both.

I cannot say enough good things about the noseless saddle I have, how my cycling enjoyment benefited and how my body comfort/soft tissue benefited from this purchase. Frankly, even if you don't have soft tissue pain, I'd recommend a noseless saddle. I just can't imagine all that pressure being good for that area of your body, especially if you ride for any length of time or distance.

[parity]

I don't ride them but I would check out ISM:

http://www.ismseat.com/products.htm

I've heard favorable things about them and seen them in use by other racers. Dunno where you live but check out the dealer link, they list dealers which have demo programs.

[artifactos]

I absolutely love my ISM Adamo. It solved my soft tissue pain issues on my first ride on it, though it took some further adjustments to eliminate the SI joint issues it brought on. Now I'm riding without any pain other than tired legs, and I love it!!

[KnottedYet]

I bought a noseless one.

It nearly killed me.

Perhaps you should measure your sit bones, and try a saddle or two that fit your sit bones before you try another noseless?

A regular saddle that actually FITS YOU should be no more uncomfortable than sitting on a hard wooden chair. (if sitting on a wooden chair causes you numbness and soft tissue problems, then you want to be looking for a saddle that both fits your sit bones - 1 or 2 cm wider than your outside measurement, and with saddle cheeks that match your center-to-center measurement - AND that has a cut out.)

A saddle that fits you will have you weightbearing on your sit bones, with no weightbearing on the soft tissue. If someone is weightbearing on soft tissue, they are perching on a saddle that is too narrow.

[KnottedYet]

c

I cannot say enough good things about the noseless saddle I have, how my cycling enjoyment benefited and how my body comfort/soft tissue benefited from this purchase. Frankly, even if you don't have soft tissue pain, I'd recommend a noseless saddle. I just can't imagine all that pressure being good for that area of your body, especially if you ride for any length of time or distance.

Both of the posts you've put here on TE have been excellent sales pitches for your particular noseless saddle. But the basic issue is that saddle pain is from saddles that don't fit. There shouldn't be pressure on soft tissues with a normal saddle IF it fits.

Unfortunately, most women do not realize that saddle shapes and sizes are as individual as shoe lasts and sizes.

Expecting a woman with size 10 feet to love a pair of size 6 shoes as much as the woman next to her is just as silly as expecting a woman with 190mm sit bone span to love the Selle Italia Ldy Gel (and no, I didn't forget the "a", there isn't one on the saddle I'm looking at) as much as the chickie with the 135mm span.

We live in a world where saddles for women still start from a model of saddles made for men, except in the rare cases of bike saddles that were designed and made for women based on experience with women's equestrian saddles. Men, believe it or not, have different pelvises. For one thing, they are dramatically narrower at the sit bones. And their sit bones don't flare posteriorly even a smidgen as much as ours do.

Right now, to stretch a metaphor, all of us with size 10 feet are surrounded by a plethora of size 5, 6, and 7 shoes. They HURT. Saddles that are too narrow HURT as much as shoes that are too small.

Rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater, start by getting both of your sit bone spans, then do the cut-out test, then make your best guess about pear vs. T shaped contour. If you want a 6 month no-questions-asked trial of a saddle take a look at www.wallbike.com Really, no matter what you do, you must start with your measurements, just like you would when going shoe shopping.

(And no, hip size or body size have almost NOTHING to do with sit bone span. You can't guess based on the size of your butt. You have to boldly take command of your life, find those bones, and measure them!)

[Eden]

Also, the bike shop fit expert told me that if I did have any issues adjusting to cornering, to use the top bar and I wouldn't miss the nose on the saddle.

?!?!?!?! I'm sorry...... I wouldn't trust any "expert" who told you to corner on your tops for more control..... For optimum control of your bike you, especially in a fast corner you always corner in your drops.

Most of the control you have over turning your bike comes from your body, not from turning your handlebars. If you are going to consider a noseless saddle you best be very careful when adjusting to it and be even more careful if you plan on taking any fast corners. Some of them look very dangerous to me.

[Thorn]

Right now, to stretch a metaphor, all of us with size 10 feet are surrounded by a plethora of size 5, 6, and 7 shoes. They HURT. Saddles that are too narrow HURT as much as shoes that are too small.


I love that analogy. Your saddle information is always the bestest of the best, but this analogy really drives home the point. Ooooo...perfect.

[lph]

?!?!?!?! I'm sorry...... I wouldn't trust any "expert" who told you to corner on your tops for more control..... For optimum control of your bike you, especially in a fast corner you always corner in your drops.


I assumed she meant using (pressure against) the top bar of the bike frame, instead of the nose of the saddle. Or doesn't that make sense?

I'm one of those who can't really imagine not having a nose on my saddle. I'm used to riding a mtb, and I'm up and down and in and out of my saddle all the time, and I use the nose quite actively. I don't actually use the nose to sit on or lean forwards onto, but I use it for steering, and it keeps the rest of the saddle together ;)

I suspect how happy you are with a noseless saddle may have quite a bit to do with riding style. For me, I was happy with finding a saddle with a large enough cut-out that doesn't give pressure on the soft parts. I have had too narrow ones, that felt like sitting on an axe.

[KnottedYet]

I assumed she meant using (pressure against) the top bar of the bike frame, instead of the nose of the saddle. Or doesn't that make sense?



I'm still with Eden on this one, even if the "expert" meant top TUBE rather than top BAR. Anyone who would recommend that kind of contortion and distortion of proper form, ESPECIALLY while cornering, is worrisome.

(The lack of control and the need to stay in the saddle to maintain contact with the bike is why I had to give up on the noseless I bought. I don't sit like a princess; I haul the bike around with my body and shift weight all the time and am in and out of the saddle, and am generally like a monkey in a tree on my bikes.)

[artifactos]

A regular saddle that actually FITS YOU should be no more uncomfortable than sitting on a hard wooden chair. (if sitting on a wooden chair causes you numbness and soft tissue problems, then you want to be looking for a saddle that both fits your sit bones - 1 or 2 cm wider than your outside measurement, and with saddle cheeks that match your center-to-center measurement - AND that has a cut out.)

A saddle that fits you will have you weightbearing on your sit bones, with no weightbearing on the soft tissue. If someone is weightbearing on soft tissue, they are perching on a saddle that is too narrow.

My problem with a nosed saddle (personally) stems from the way I am built. I cannot maintain a road position with a nosed saddle without major pain in my soft tissue, stemming from the way my pelvis is built and how my weight gets distributed on a nosed saddle (and yes, I tried many nosed saddles in various widths/shapes, adjusted to various angles, etc etc.. I used to adjust my saddle every 5 miles on longer rides to see if I could eliminate the soft tissue pain. I rode with soft tissue pain for months, including tearing, bleeding, and missing skin. For me, it stems from the tilt of my pelvis in the road position (I experience similar problems when riding at a sitting trot on a horse in a forward hunt-seat position for extended periods of time, too.. part of why I switched to dressage), because I don't experience the same problems with a nosed saddle on my mountain bike that I ride in a much more upright position.

While, yes, it is possible that I could find a nosed saddle that eventually would work for me.. eliminating the nose (or, in my case, going to what looks more like a split nose) immediately eliminated the soft tissue problems. I would much rather lose a tiny bit of maneuverability by having a noseless saddle than experiment for another 6 months and come up still mostly-uncomfortable on a nosed saddle. The fact that I can now ride 50 miles and be fine (other than tired legs and tired sitbones from being in the saddle for hours) rather than riding 15 miles and crying because my labia have been torn and I am miserable and want to go home is enough for me to stick with my noseless saddle and recommend at least TRYING them to someone with similar soft tissue issues.

If you're going to experiment with nosed saddles of different shapes, sizes, and adjustments.. why not add a noseless saddle or two to your experiments and see if they work? It's really all trial and error, isn't it?

[KnottedYet]

No-where did I say someone shouldn't use a noseless saddle.

She already tried one, and hated it.

I suggest she measure herself and try a nosed saddle that fits before giving up on nosed saddles entirely and trying yet another noseless saddle.

You are clearly the build that needs a split nose or cut-out. (remember my comment about sitting on a hard chair? There you are!) They have a purpose, which is why there are so many varieties out there. I've recommended your split nose saddle to several people.

Edit to Add:

Remember there are three basic things to know before shopping for saddles-
1. Sit bone measurements (outside and center)
2. Cut-out vs. Solid
3. Pear contour vs. "T" contour

There are a bazillion threads giving detailed instructions of various techniques to use to get these three pieces of info. Trying saddles without knowing these is kind of like trying on shoes randomly; you might get lucky, and you might end up spending a lot of money and getting frustrated.

[Biciclista]

I don't sit like a princess;

I disagree. you DO sit like a princess :p

[artifactos]

You are clearly the build that needs a split nose or cut-out. (remember my comment about sitting on a hard chair? There you are!) They have a purpose, which is why there are so many varieties out there. I've recommended your split nose saddle to several people.

The hard chair test is actually not a very accurate test for me. My butt and thighs provide enough padding that I can't find any angle on a hard chair that hurts the same way a saddle does. Weird, huh?

[Xrayted]

+1 on what Knot said above. :)

Oh, and +1 for Mimi. Knot, you do sit like a princess. http://forums.sohc4.net/Smileys/default/kiss.gif http://www.twowheelfemales.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

[WolfGirl]

Thank you for all of the input, folks...I admit, I'm a bit overwhelmed. Like Artifactos, I'm just miserable (and numb for days after!) even after the shortest of rides. I tried measuring myself but I can't seem to find the instructions (measure from the inside of the impression? Center? Outside?) and don't have what I'd call an accurate measurement. There are several bike shops here in town, but apparently they don't have the gizmos to do the measuring for me; I called around yesterday. Their claim was that you don't get an accurate representation of where your position would be on a saddle when riding? I guess... :confused:

I did make an appointment for a bike fitting, however; it's more expensive than some saddles but less expensive than many. I think my saddle (based on my highly inaccurate measurement) might be too narrow on the sit bones, therefore putting that awful pressure on the soft tissue. But I'm going to have the bike fitting first (next week; wish it were sooner!) and then continue the saddle hunt from there. I agree that the idea of noseless ones is pretty scary; I don't THINK I use the nose much, but it's not like I'm the most graceful rider to begin with. I'm not a racer, but I like to go fast and I like to use the bike in place of the car (and due to parking, often HAVE to). And like I said, my son is a bit of a bike nut too; I need to be able to whip off 20 miles in a day for days in a row without feeling it after. Which I wouldn't feel at ALL were it not for this saddle thing!

Anyway...thank you for the suggestions...and keep them coming! I'll keep you posted on the fitting results. I'm glad I found this forum! :)

[KnottedYet]

First off: Wolfgirl - "numb for days" is a bad bad sign! Usually that's compression of the peroneal nerve where it runs between the sit bones. Trust me, you do not want damage to that nerve! If I may suggest a wide (like 200+mm), flat-topped, minimally padded or unpadded, "T" shaped saddle for a substitute over the one currently on your bike, at least until after your bike fit? Ask around, someone you know might have something floating around their garage they might let you borrow.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=25954&highlight=saddle This might be a good place to start, but there is a better thread which I can't find right now. The gizmo at the bike shop is great for measuring center-to-center. Someone posted fabulous instructions for making your own gizmo with saran wrap and play-doh.

[rubywagon]

You can also measure your sit bones with a two gallon ziploc and some regular flour, if you don't have play doh handy.

[KnottedYet]

The hard chair test is actually not a very accurate test for me. My butt and thighs provide enough padding that I can't find any angle on a hard chair that hurts the same way a saddle does. Weird, huh?

At least you knew the problem from equestrian saddles. That kind of knowlege is worth its weight in gold!

I've had very few people say the chair test (I used to use a concrete bench right outside our door, that worked GREAT) replicated the sensation precisely, but they could feel it lurking in the back ground and they felt definitely less comfortable elbows-on-knees compared to sitting upright. That's the only test (other than trying various saddles) I know of.

I collect no-cost saddle tests, and if anyone has another cut-out vs. solid test, please tell me!

[WolfGirl]

Knotted, thanks for the tips; I checked out that thread (among others).

When I say numb, I mean more on the _outside_ of my lady bits than the inside (with my newer seat (Planet Bike ARS); the numbness was all over with the stock seat). As for the seat until the fitting, I'm staying off the bike for the most part until then. I miss it! :(

I'll try to hunt up the play-doh test thread, thanks!

[KnottedYet]

A little light reading:

http://www.urosource.com/fileadmin/user_upload/european_urology/PIIS0302283804005627.pdf

http://pudendal.info/node/pdf/intractableperenialpain.pdf

The vast majority of studies about perineal and pudendal nerve compression and entrapment are about men... cuz men really worry when their pee-pees don't work. But the general idea is the same.

If you've got the time, do some searches on scholar.google.com You can find some pretty neat stuff.

(and yes, numbness on the outside is what happens when the sensory nerve gets compressed on the inside on its way out, just like your hand gets numb when you sleep on your shoulder. numbness that lasts for days means the nerve running to that area was compressed so horribly that it took days for it to rebound and recover)

[Eden]

In any case the Adamo is *not* really a noseless saddle - like the spider one that other gal has been pushing or the "moon" saddle. It has a nose that will take a push from your thigh even if it is very widely split. I really do think a truly noseless saddle would be a safety hazard for anything but the most casual of riding.

[WolfGirl]

hey ladies,

Well, I had my fitting done, at last! The bike appeared to be an okay fit when I went in there, but the guy did end up putting on a longer stem, and I got a new saddle: a Brooks B68. We tried a lot of other saddles, and did try a Brooks with springs, but the B68 felt the best of anything, with least pressure on the soft tissues (especially when nose-up a little!). Extending the stem let _me_ extend a little: I have a longish torso and shortish legs, so that was helpful.

I'm a little wary spending so much money on a saddle when I don't know if it will work...the proof will be when I start riding for real. (I couldn't test-ride out of stationary, as it's dumping down rain today.) He said he'd give me a week on the Brooks to see how it goes, and then I could return it if it's in decent shape. I know some places online have a better return policy (but even on Brooks?) but this was a) here and b) he got it set up just right. Hopefully it'll be an investment...and if it doesn't pan out, my partner just might be the recipient of a lovely new seat! Wish me luck...

[KnottedYet]

Wallingford Bicycle Parts www.wallbike.com has a 6 month return policy on all Brooks saddles.

Bill Laine (the owner and core staff) is a wealth of saddle knowlege, will answer emails and talk with you for a good long time on the phone.

[blackhillsbiker]

I have a B-67 on my commuter and LOVE it! You do have to get past the first week when your sit bones are a bit sore, but no perineal pain (for me) at all. It has spoiled me for other saddles. You'll be riding along and all of a sudden realize that you don't notice your bum at all, and haven't in awhile, and that'll be the end of it. I'm hoping it works out as well for you as it has for me!

Deb

[KnottedYet]

I have a B-67 on my commuter and LOVE it! You do have to get past the first week when your sit bones are a bit sore, but no perineal pain (for me) at all. It has spoiled me for other saddles. You'll be riding along and all of a sudden realize that you don't notice your bum at all, and haven't in awhile, and that'll be the end of it. I'm hoping it works out as well for you as it has for me!

Deb

That has been my experience with the B67 and B68 saddles on my bikes. Minus the sit-bone soreness. I put them on any bike I ride.

[WolfGirl]

Well, I tested the B-68 on two short rides yesterday (just under 5 miles each way) and so far, I'm cautiously hopeful? I can feel mild pain in my sitbones, and I felt a little lingering pressure on the lady bits, but nothing like before. I'm concerned that it would be a lot MORE feeling after a longer or more strenuous ride, but since I wasn't wearing bike shorts I'm hoping that that would make it all the much better. Am I right to assume that one would feel SOME pressure or soreness after riding? Meaning, I'm not going to find the Perfect Seat where you walk away not still feeling the saddle? (Oh, how I wish...)

[KnottedYet]

Well, I tested the B-68 on two short rides yesterday (just under 5 miles each way) and so far, I'm cautiously hopeful? I can feel mild pain in my sitbones, and I felt a little lingering pressure on the lady bits, but nothing like before. I'm concerned that it would be a lot MORE feeling after a longer or more strenuous ride, but since I wasn't wearing bike shorts I'm hoping that that would make it all the much better. Am I right to assume that one would feel SOME pressure or soreness after riding? Meaning, I'm not going to find the Perfect Seat where you walk away not still feeling the saddle? (Oh, how I wish...)

Remember to level the NOSE of a Brooks saddle, not the entire length of the saddle. The back of the saddle (cantle plate) should be slightly higher than the rest of the saddle.

I walk away from my bikes "not still feeling the saddle." I had saddle pain in the past so bad that I even tried one of those horrible two-pad-no-nose saddles. Turns out my sit bones are wider than most *entire* saddles, and once I finally got my measurements and bought a saddle that actually fit, the whole world changed. Brooks fit even better after they have been ridden, because they gradually form themselves to your butt.

[WolfGirl]

Remember to level the NOSE of a Brooks saddle, not the entire length of the saddle. The back of the saddle (cantle plate) should be slightly higher than the rest of the saddle.

Hm, okay...I'm not sure he did that or not. My partner got a flat last night on our ride, so I'm going to take his bike in today to a (different) repair place we like. I'll ask them about the Brooks leveling when I do.


Brooks fit even better after they have been ridden, because they gradually form themselves to your butt.

So I hear. I hope that's the case for me? :-/

[WolfGirl]

Well, so today I did 11 miles or so (5.5+ each way) on the Brooks B68. The lady bits feel pretty good, actually; some smushing while riding but not bad. (I'm not riding in bike shorts; don't have any that fit at present.) The sitbones are pretty sore, however. I'm hoping that as it breaks in (and I toughen up?) this will go away some...right? Or is this an indication that this isn't the seat for me? :confused:

[blackhillsbiker]

The first week or so was pretty painful on my sitbones. It was much easier to take than the pain and numbness from cutout saddles I had been experiencing. I did break down and find some bike shorts I liked to finish breaking in the saddle. After that, though, I almost never ride that bike in bike shorts. The sitbones toughened up, the saddle dented in the right places, and all was right with the world. :) I really do love that saddle.

Deb

[WolfGirl]

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that! ;) I ordered some shorts, but they won't be here for a while. Hope my butt holds out until then. :rolleyes:

[WolfGirl]

So yesterday I did over 30 miles, which (while I know it's not huge) was the longest single-day total for me so far! I'm thinking the Brooks saddle is going to work out for me just fine; my lady bits aren't numb or sore after, and my sitbones are even doing pretty well. I did have some chafing in the butt-cheek area (between the butt and thigh) by the end, but I think that has to do with the yoga pants getting folded in there. It's weird with the Brooks; I started out wearing shorts over the yoga pants in order to provide extra padding for the sitbones, but took them off a mile down the road; the extra padding is actually LESS comfortable, especially in the crotch area.

Now I just need to investigate the chafing threads...I'm thinking I need to buy some proper bike shorts that DON'T have extra padding. The quest continues...but my butt is pretty happy! :D

[nscrbug]

The hard chair test is actually not a very accurate test for me. My butt and thighs provide enough padding that I can't find any angle on a hard chair that hurts the same way a saddle does. Weird, huh?

I have the same exact problem. I cannot replicate the pain, while sitting on a chair...but put a saddle underneath me, and it's a totally different story.

[KnottedYet]

I have the same exact problem. I cannot replicate the pain, while sitting on a chair...but put a saddle underneath me, and it's a totally different story.

As I've said before, it's not going to replicate the pain. But it will feel uncomfortable and smushed.

If sitting on a hard bench with your elbows resting on your knees is uncomfortable, then you know you should probably get a cut out.

Nothing will replicate the pain. But I can hold my hand over a fire and know it's uncomfortable, without having to bury my hands in the glowing coals to be sure.