Isoflavones - Menopause - help!

[kelownagirl]

Just wondering if anyone has used any homeopathic remedies for hot flashes. The hot flashes aren't really bothering me all that much but the night sweats are driving me crazy - I'm not getting any sleep. I don't want to take any hormones so I was looking at some of the OTC products such as Promensil which have plant estrogens called Isoflavones and claim to reduce hot flashes and night sweats.

Has anyone tried them with any success? Any weird or annoying side effects?

Thank you!

*sleepless in kelowna*


PS http://www.isoflavones.info/isoflavones-abstracts.php?article=promensil-menopause-symptoms

[malkin]

I tried and didn't notice any difference. I keep extra sleep shirts by the bed, so I can find a dry one in the night. (Ick)

[arielmoon]

Ugh! Night sweats are the worst! I was using Chinese herbs formulas from my acupuncturist for a while and it seemed to help a lot. I ran out recently and it hasnt been any worse. I did pick up more herbs but I havent taken them yet because I want to see if I still do need them. I did try some of the creams briefly but they did not seem to help for me. I know people that have found them effective though.

Best of luck!

[Grog]

I am still a ways away from menopause (hopefully) but a friend of mine with early-onset issues swore by soy products. (There is a soy-estrogen relationship, which you may want to research...) Increasing your tofu and soy milk consumption might help in a gentle way...

Good luck!

[kermit]

I met a woman that swears by evening primrose oil!

[divingbiker]

I had good luck taking Estroven for a while (OTC) but when I ran out I didn't get any more. Bad move. Then I got some black cohosh and it made no difference at all. So now I've started back on Estroven. It takes a couple of weeks for it to kick in, so I'm hoping to get some relief again soon.

I'm a vegan and eat a boatload of soy products, and it hasn't helped a bit, fwiw.

[tctrek]

+1 on Estroven. I've also used evening primrose. My menopause is over, but for about a year during the worst of it, I gave in and took hormone replacements. I was miserable. I'm now permanently warmer than I ever was in my life, but no more night sweats.

[kelownagirl]

I just read up on it.

"Estroven contains vitamins E, B-12, B-6, other B-vitamins, and folic acid, as well as black cohosh, Soy Isoflavone and herbs."

Interesting. Will see if it's available in Canada.

As for the soy, its the plant estrogens (isoflavones) that are supposed to help.

Someone else told me about black cohosh. Works for some people but not others.

Thanks for the feedback!

[marni]

I found that taking an extra vitamin E tablet along with increasing my soy milk intake helped. It does take a while to kick in- but I started with the extra vitamin E when I was younger to help with PMS.

marni

[kelownagirl]

OK, I've been taking Vitamin E once in awhile. Will make sure I take it regularly.

Someone else told me to avoid chocolate, coffee, and wine....

BWAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAAA....... :rolleyes:

[marni]

I tried giving all that up for a while but decided if I was going to miserable anyway, I would do it in style. I did quit them after 6 PM in the evening and switched to half caf coffee and espresso ( which actually has the least amount of caffeine but the best flavor) if I had to caffinate after 2 or 3 in the afternoon. Strangely enough, dark cherries seemed to help although I don't know why.

marni

[shootingstar]

Thought it was long-term diet of eating soy was what MAY benefit some women later in life not to have strong negative effects of menopause.

Meaning eating abit of soy in diet for several decades in life BEFORE menopause. (And please, this does not apply to soy sauce nor miso. Both are heavy in salt.) It doesn't mean stop eating abit of soy now, but just don't rely on the soy miracle.

I scarcely experience hot flashes..for 5-10 min. for 1-2 times per month. But a sister of mine, experiences some periodic hot flashes. Pretty mild and doesn't disturb her sleep, compared what some of you are experiencing.

[kelownagirl]

Thought it was long-term diet of eating soy was what MAY benefit some women later in life not to have strong negative effects of menopause.

Meaning eating abit of soy in diet for several decades in life BEFORE menopause. (And please, this does not apply to soy sauce nor miso. Both are heavy in salt.) It doesn't mean stop eating abit of soy now, but just don't rely on the soy miracle.

I scarcely experience hot flashes..for 5-10 min. for 1-2 times per month. But a sister of mine, experiences some periodic hot flashes. Pretty mild and doesn't disturb her sleep, compared what some of you are experiencing.


Thanks, that's a different take on it that I hadn't heard before. I agree about eating a bit of soy now and then wouldn't help much but I was hoping that taking one of the homeopathic remedies containing a measured amount of isoflavones on a regular basis might help. I will check further into what you are saying though - if that's true, then there won't be any use in taking the supplement.

[OakLeaf]

I'm wary of any refined soy products. I'm wary of soy generally - even homemade soy milk from organic beans gives me hormone problems - but being at high risk for breast cancer, I limit my consumption of refined soy products to a bit of Perpetuem on my longest runs and on supported rides that I know don't provide adequate protein at their snack stops, and that won't be passing through towns where I could buy a sandwich.

I really never had hot flashes until after my biopsy when I drastically cut my soy consumption. So it might have been preventing them, OTOH it could just have been coincidence.

#1 correlation for my hot flashes is alcohol. Not that I drink much any more (see above). :( But when I do, I know about it from the hot flash department.

[kelownagirl]

I was thinking the wine but I haven't been drinking any most nights for the past month coming up to my race and I'm still getting them. I'm not hormonal in the slightest so no worries there.


I'm wary of any refined soy products. I'm wary of soy generally - even homemade soy milk from organic beans gives me hormone problems - but being at high risk for breast cancer, I limit my consumption of refined soy products to a bit of Perpetuem on my longest runs and on supported rides that I know don't provide adequate protein at their snack stops, and that won't be passing through towns where I could buy a sandwich.

I really never had hot flashes until after my biopsy when I drastically cut my soy consumption. So it might have been preventing them, OTOH it could just have been coincidence.

#1 correlation for my hot flashes is alcohol. Not that I drink much any more (see above). :( But when I do, I know about it from the hot flash department.

[tiva]

Soy is no safer, and probably much riskier, than bioidentical hormones. Other plant hormones aren't any safer either. In fact, they're all made from essentially the same plants (soy or wild yam).

The problem with herbal supplements is that the FDA has essentially no regulatory power over them. This means you have no idea what you're getting, how strong it might be, and how contaminated it is by heavy metals, etc. Most herbal supplements are now made in China, in factories with zero regulation, grown in very contaminated soils. (Today's New York Times has a brief article on heavy metal contamination in herbal supplements: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/health/policy/26herbal.html )

Bioidentical hormones, on the other hand, ARE regulated. They are made from plants, but modified to be exactly the same as our body's own hormones. They don't contain heavy metal contamination. Plus, you can get them in a transdermal (ie, patch) form, which is much easier on your body. You can take far lower doses in a transdermal form, because it's not being broken down in your stomach.

I completely respect each individual woman's decision not to take supplemental hormones. But if you ARE going to take supplemental hormones, I think it's a lot safer to get a regulated product that doesn't contain heavy metals, and does contain what the package says it contains.

Vivelle dot and climara are both bioidentical estradiol, made from yams, available in a wide range of dosages, and much safer than soy or whatever stuff is on the counter at the health food store. (And they can do wonders for night sweats and hot flashes, even at extremely low doses). (Full disclosure: I'm a professor who researchs estrogen and endocrine disruption, and last month, I went on an extremely low dose of transdermal estradiol, because menopausal sleeplessness was driving me nuts.)

[mudmucker]

Here is another option. It may not be an agreeable one nor is it homeopathic. But if you're not sleeping.....

(I'll say this realizing you are suffering from 'regular' perimenopausal symptoms).

Women who have estrogen induced cancers such as uterine cancer can't take estrogen to help with the instant surgically induced menopause caused by a full hysterectomy, ovaries included. Hot flashes and other symptoms occur abruptly and intensely. Even bioidenticals may not be advised.

In some instances, very low dose anti-depressants can be taken, and are specifically used to prevent hot flashes although generally when women can't take estrogen. The anti-depressant at low doses addresses the vasodialation of the blood vessels that causes the hot flashes. Again, the anti-depressant isn't being administered as an anti-depressant for it's typical intended use because of the low dose.

[kelownagirl]

Wow, you sound like you've got knowledge galore. Here's a question for you. I was on the pill for most of my life and only stopped last fall when we figured out I was probably menopausal. The hot flashes started when I went off the pill. What is the difference between the hormones in the pill and the ones given for menopause? If was I never worried about taking the pill, why should I be worried about taking hormone replacement?

Thanks :)


Soy is no safer, and probably much riskier, than bioidentical hormones. Other plant hormones aren't any safer either. In fact, they're all made from essentially the same plants (soy or wild yam).

The problem with herbal supplements is that the FDA has essentially no regulatory power over them. This means you have no idea what you're getting, how strong it might be, and how contaminated it is by heavy metals, etc. Most herbal supplements are now made in China, in factories with zero regulation, grown in very contaminated soils. (Today's New York Times has a brief article on heavy metal contamination in herbal supplements: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/health/policy/26herbal.html )

Bioidentical hormones, on the other hand, ARE regulated. They are made from plants, but modified to be exactly the same as our body's own hormones. They don't contain heavy metal contamination. Plus, you can get them in a transdermal (ie, patch) form, which is much easier on your body. You can take far lower doses in a transdermal form, because it's not being broken down in your stomach.

I completely respect each individual woman's decision not to take supplemental hormones. But if you ARE going to take supplemental hormones, I think it's a lot safer to get a regulated product that doesn't contain heavy metals, and does contain what the package says it contains.

Vivelle dot and climara are both bioidentical estradiol, made from yams, available in a wide range of dosages, and much safer than soy or whatever stuff is on the counter at the health food store. (And they can do wonders for night sweats and hot flashes, even at extremely low doses). (Full disclosure: I'm a professor who researchs estrogen and endocrine disruption, and last month, I went on an extremely low dose of transdermal estradiol, because menopausal sleeplessness was driving me nuts.)

[kelownagirl]

Here is another option. It may not be an agreeable one nor is it homeopathic. But if you're not sleeping.....

(I'll say this realizing you are suffering from 'regular' perimenopausal symptoms).

Women who have estrogen induced cancers such as uterine cancer can't take estrogen to help with the instant surgically induced menopause caused by a full hysterectomy, ovaries included. Hot flashes and other symptoms occur abruptly and intensely. Even bioidenticals may not be advised.

In some instances, very low dose anti-depressants can be taken, and are specifically used to prevent hot flashes although generally when women can't take estrogen. The anti-depressant at low doses addresses the vasodialation of the blood vessels that causes the hot flashes. Again, the anti-depressant isn't being administered as an anti-depressant for it's typical intended use because of the low dose.

That's an interesting idea - thanks! I'll check into that as well.

[tiva]

Wow, you sound like you've got knowledge galore.
Thanks, but not really. I did recently write a book on the first synthetic hormone replacement therapy and what it tells us about other synthetic estrogens (TOXIC BODIES, Yale University Press, 2010).


Here's a question for you. I was on the pill for most of my life and only stopped last fall when we figured out I was probably menopausal. The hot flashes started when I went off the pill. What is the difference between the hormones in the pill and the ones given for menopause?

Lots of different hormone formulations are available for contraception, but most of them are MUCH higher dose than the estrogens give for menopausal symptoms. And none of them are bioidentical.



If was I never worried about taking the pill, why should I be worried about taking hormone replacement?
Thanks :)

Timing means a lot for hormones. Low doses at certain times (ie, during fetal development) can cause more problems than high doses at other times of your life. That said, for many women, bioidentical, transdermal hormone replacement is probably no riskier than the contraceptive pill. If you weren't worried about the pill, and if night sweats are really disturbing your sleep, it's worth talking with your health care provider about the potential risks and benefits, for your particular situation, with hormonal and nonhormonal approaches. One size doesn't fit all (ie, the WHI 2002 study that radically reduced the # of women taking HRT applies to some, but certainly not all, women!)

[mudmucker]

I just went to get some bodywork done and my holistic person told me about maca. It has some amazing nutritional benefits for one. If you look it up you'll see a lot of talk on its legendary effects on enhancing libido etc. But there is a another whole segment about this root discussing how it contains compounds that normalize hormones (without it being a bioidentical), and reduces symptoms of menopause such as hot flashes and sleeplessness.

[Dogmama]

I just went to get some bodywork done and my holistic person told me about maca. It has some amazing nutritional benefits for one. If you look it up you'll see a lot of talk on its legendary effects on enhancing libido etc. But there is a another whole segment about this root discussing how it contains compounds that normalize hormones (without it being a bioidentical), and reduces symptoms of menopause such as hot flashes and sleeplessness.

I just looked it up on consumerlab.com and they didn't say anything about maca having an affect on menopausal symptoms. They did say that it purportedly is good for male sexual desire but the studies are weak and did not have a control group. But maybe it's "off label" - like so many of our other drugs..

As for herbs vs. FDA regulated drugs - I do understand that unregulated herbs can contain nasty compounds. But I don't think that the FDA is the seal of approval either. Some drugs are later recalled because certain problems are later "found." For over 10 years, I worked in a medical University setting where we received "drug money" - grants from pharmaceutical companies to test their new compounds. We loved drug money. They would give us a ton of money - lots more than we really needed for the research. After we did the work & wrote the report, we got to keep the rest of the money & use it for totally unrestricted purposes (as long as we followed basic University guidelines.) So, there was a strong desire to keep in the good graces of the pharmaceutical companies. How does that happen? Maybe if you tend to write good reports about their drugs? Just a possibility.

It all gives me a hot flash.

Back to the OP's concerns. I have tried bioidenticals and always eventually have to come off of them. Right now I'm using Black Cohosh for flashes and valarian to help sleep. I just started the cohosh, so I can't report but the valarian does help sleep. I also used to work with Andrew Weil who would tell you that if you purchase your herbs from well known companies, your chances of getting what you pay for are better. Also, I subscribe to Consumerlab.com where they actually test supplements to make sure they contain the stated ingredients and nothing else. They operate like consumer reports & are supported by subscribers on-line, not advertisers.

Sleep clothing - if you can find nightgowns made from bamboo material, they are heavenly. They don't trap heat & will absorb light perspiration. I know LLBean sometimes sells nightgowns made from bamboo.

Finally, try to NOT live in Arizona. I'm not looking forward to another summer.

[Dogmama]

In some instances, very low dose anti-depressants can be taken, and are specifically used to prevent hot flashes although generally when women can't take estrogen. The anti-depressant at low doses addresses the vasodialation of the blood vessels that causes the hot flashes. Again, the anti-depressant isn't being administered as an anti-depressant for it's typical intended use because of the low dose.

The antidepressant typically needs to be an SNRI, e.g., Effexor, Pristiq or Cymbalta. Be sure that you also check out the withdrawal problems of these pills. Can be nasty. OTOH, they help mood swings & general menopausal crankiness. If you decide to withdraw, you need to do so slowly. I was on one of them & they kicked up my IBS like crazy. BUT, I did feel calmer. In the end, I had to taper off. It was weird - light flashes, feeling like I had the flu and the rebound hot flashes were awful.

[AMP]

I have severe hot flashes and night sweats. My DH told me last week that he had to come to bed with a snorkel and mask!:p Alcohol consumption made absolutely no difference as neither did caffeine or chocolat. I had hot flashes before and after I quit all three. I also am self-employed and have to pay an enormous deductable for any drug. (My insurance kicks in about $3!) I'm leary of any drug anyway. So. I read about how to handle hot flashes and one of the methods that actually worked was...breathing. When you get the first glimmer of a hot flash, slowly breathe in to the count of five, hold, lungs full; and slowly breathe out to the count of five and hold, lungs empty.
The sensation is one of calming control. Best of luck. Also, this too shall pass.

[kelownagirl]

Gonna try the breathing thing - sounds cool.

And I think I'll see my doctor again. Last time I talked with her, the night sweats weren't that bad.

Thanks for all the discussion. It's all very interesting!

[Dogmama]

I saw an acupuncturist today who specializes in menopausal stuff. It's going to take a few sessions, so I'll try to bump this if anybody is interested.

One thing though - for the past few days I've had crushing fatigue. No idea why - maybe hot flashing at night & not sleeping, maybe a low grade virus, who knows. I mentioned that to my needle-pusher & she said that is part of what acupuncture addresses when they address menopause. It's been several hours and I DO feel better. Placebo effect - maybe. At this point, I don't care. I barely made it through teaching spinning last night - did a lot of off-the-bike instruction.

Who said old age isn't for sissies?

[kelownagirl]

No kidding. Fatigue - yeah. I fall asleep ok but waking up every hour to sweat is really cutting into my REM sleep I think. I just need to get a few good nights sleep between now and my race on Sunday.... Argh.

I did acupuncture for my shins and it didn't help much. But keep us posted, I'm always willing to try it again.


I saw an acupuncturist today who specializes in menopausal stuff. It's going to take a few sessions, so I'll try to bump this if anybody is interested.

One thing though - for the past few days I've had crushing fatigue. No idea why - maybe hot flashing at night & not sleeping, maybe a low grade virus, who knows. I mentioned that to my needle-pusher & she said that is part of what acupuncture addresses when they address menopause. It's been several hours and I DO feel better. Placebo effect - maybe. At this point, I don't care. I barely made it through teaching spinning last night - did a lot of off-the-bike instruction.

Who said old age isn't for sissies?

[navybeetle]

I am 46, have been on the pill for 22 years off and on but mostly on. Lately my period skips a month and I do a pregnancy test just in case and that comes out negative. A couple of months my period came a week early but was very light or seemed like break through bleeding which can be normal on the pill. This month it came a week and a half early and has lasted 10 days. Feel it more than usual in my abdomen and have little short cramps that are like a needle pricking me. Also have more abdominal discomfort than usual. To add to that I have had night sweats these past couple of days. Anybody go through this at my age? Thanks for any input, I do not want to totally rely on my doctor's opinion which I have not gotten yet :confused:

[OakLeaf]

I had very irregular periods for at least two years before they finally stopped. That's normal for perimenopause. Want a leftover pregnancy test? ;)

[navybeetle]

I probably have an extra pregtest in the bathroom! Thanks though. Just reading this thread alone kind of confirms to me that I am in pre-menopause. I have trouble sleeping, sweats at night sometimes, irregular bleeding patterns while on the pill and very lethargic at times, especially when my period kicks in. I will be glad when this is over:)

[bmccasland]

I get doing the controlled breathing during the day, but how does that work at night? :confused:

I wound up going on HRT, and was moved down to the lowest dose 1:2.5 .

The rhetorical question about taking birth control pills for several years, but not HRT is a good one.

[navybeetle]

I do not know what HRT is, just started dealing with this in the past year or so :-)

[tiva]

I probably have an extra pregtest in the bathroom! Thanks though. Just reading this thread alone kind of confirms to me that I am in pre-menopause. I have trouble sleeping, sweats at night sometimes, irregular bleeding patterns while on the pill and very lethargic at times, especially when my period kicks in. I will be glad when this is over:)

Welcome to perimenopause! It's tons of fun. Seriously, here are some tips:
1. buy lots of fans
2. buy housemates lots of sweaters, so they stop complaining when you open the windows and turn on all the fans in mid-winter when it's 20 below out (wimps)
3. if hot flashes, night sweats, mood issues, cognition issues, etc are driving you crazy, don't hesitate to do something about them. Lots of options exist, from bioidentical hormones, to meditation, yoga, herbs--different women need different approaches
4. exercise a LOT & eat well (for me, that means lots of protein, lots of good fats, fruits and veggies, cut out the sugar and most grains--other people will do well on other foods).

[celticgarden]

Sheesh. I am in the club. I couldn't take the interrupted sleep and resulting energy, brain power crash. I desperately wanted to try and do this 'naturally.' Was drinking gallons of herbal infusions (sage from my garden, oatstraw, nettle) plus herbal tinctures but to NO AVAIL. I started taking BC pills again. They bring their own problems for me such as increased tendancy to yeast infections. I started trying to commute (14 miles round trip) yesterday and my girlie parts are crying with the beginnings of yeast today. This better not be a trend as I was planning on doing this commute as much as possible this Summer.

Anyway I'm here to offer my voice of sympathy. I'd rather take the risks of the pill than live like I was. Of course, I'm lucky, no major risk factors here.

Good luck to all of you.

[navybeetle]

I wanted to let you all know something that has worked for me and my little sister on yeast infections. First, she eats a serving of yogurt every day and so do I. This has helped both of us. We were having recurrent yeast infections at one time, what a drag... :mad: Then I saw my gynecologist and he recommended that as soon as I feel/smell/or show the discharge of a yeast infection I should put @ 2 tablespoons of plain yogurt in a reusable douche bag and fill to the top with very warm but not hot water. Then douche with this mixture. It actually feels good inside. YOU MUST USE PLAIN YOGURT, the sugars and the yeast will have a holiday if you don't. Do this for a couple of days and see if it helps. THE TRICK is to douche as soon as you detect a yeast infection. Don't wait. Get right on it. Any drug store should have the reusable douch bags. I rinse the bag out really well with hot water and let any drops drain out. Using soap may irritate your skin inside and out. Even if you are "just itchy" and it is not a yeast infection it will not hurt you to douche this way. I am on the pill and I have not had the yeast infections I used to, it was pretty bad there for a while. Also, if you don't catch it, you can get a prescription for diflucan and that works within 24 hrs. One Pill, 24 hrs.

[badger]

I've had night sweats during my period since I was 18. My doctor even did a blood test to make sure I'm not going through very early menopause, but I wasn't. She even put me on progesterone for a cycle or two before I swore it off due to wild mood swings.

I know when my period's coming as I start sweating a night or two before it starts, and it'll go for about 3 or 4 nights after that. I've tried various herbs to try and curb this but so far haven't found anything that works all that well. Wild yam extract does seem to help with my other pms symptoms but not much for the night sweats. Ick!!

[ny biker]

I know when my period's coming as I start sweating a night or two before it starts, and it'll go for about 3 or 4 nights after that. I've tried various herbs to try and curb this but so far haven't found anything that works all that well. Wild yam extract does seem to help with my other pms symptoms but not much for the night sweats. Ick!!

This started happening to me a couple years ago. I used to get bad "warning cramps." Now I get no cramps, but they've been replaced by "warning hot flashes and night sweats."

Oh well, at least the migraines are not as bad as they used to be...

[badger]

oh yeah, I forgot the migraines (how could I!?). So, in addition to the night sweats, I know I'm getting my period because of the nasty headaches, lethargy, and night sweats.

Honestly, next life I'm coming back as a man!!