Riser Stem?

[Catrin]

Does this look like a riser stem? To me it looks like a solid unit, but wanted to see what others think. I am willing to try raising my bars a bit, but this looks to me like it isn't a riser, or that I need a taller one. Here are two views..

[Becky]

Yes, it does to me. It's a non-adjustable riser stem. There are adjustable ones out there, but I'm not a fan. You have to get the "hinge" bolt wicked tight, or run the risk that it shifts on you at the worst time. And I'm not sure that an adjustable would go much higher than the stem that you have now.

What exactly are you looking to change with regards to fit?

[Catrin]

Yes, it does to me. It's a non-adjustable riser stem. There are adjustable ones out there, but I'm not a fan. You have to get the "hinge" bolt wicked tight, or run the risk that it shifts on you at the worst time. And I'm not sure that an adjustable would go much higher than the stem that you have now.

What exactly are you looking to change with regards to fit?

My bars seem a little too low and this is causing problems with neck/back and the ability to move my hands to get to the bar-end shifters. My arms are flexed and hands relaxed, so it isn't from a death grip (I have arthritis in my hands so I know when I am holding on too tightly - it is PAINFUL). Of course some of this is from being a new rider, but not all of it.

A proper fitting will be done, but I have to wait until I get more miles on the bike. For now I will try lowering my seat-post a bit - which is a short-term solution but hopefully will help. Am also considering calling the LBS and begging them to forgo the 150 mile requirement for a full professional fitting...

[OakLeaf]

Mmmmmm... from the picture, and not seeing you on the bike, your bars are very high.

I'd go so far as to say that if those bars are too low, the frame is too small for you. I really hope that isn't the case, since I know the effort you went to in getting something the right size.

It's actually possible that the bars are too high. I wish I could give credit where credit is due... but I don't remember who it was. Someone just gave a really excellent illustration of this... Get on your hands and knees and feel how much weight is in your hands and shoulders. Now, shift your butt back towards your heels and feel how much less weight is in your hands, even as the horizontal distance between your hands and your butt gets longer. There are postures where it's very difficult for your core to take the weight, and postures where it's easy. One of the objects of fitting is to find where that's easy.

[indysteel]

I guess I don't really understand why the bar end shifters are hard to use, even if they're low. You should be able to comfortably reach for your water bottles, which are much lower than your bars. Granted, I've never used bar end shifters, but I have to wonder if this is more a function of your general comfort level on the bike. As Oakleaf suggested in another thread, you're learning a lot in a short period of time.

And I agree that your bars seem high. Believe or not, your front end stability may have more to do with how your saddle is set up now. I agree that you may have too much weight in your hands, but raising the bars won't necessarily remedy that. Trust me on this.

Maybe I can see you on the bike if we get together for a ride.

[ny biker]

What picture are you alls looking that such that you see the bars are too high?

=========
Never mind. I thought the stem in the photos in the first post was not already on Catrin's bike, but I guess that is the bike in question.

[Catrin]

Mmmmmm... from the picture, and not seeing you on the bike, your bars are very high.

I'd go so far as to say that if those bars are too low, the frame is too small for you. I really hope that isn't the case, since I know the effort you went to in getting something the right size.

It's actually possible that the bars are too high. I wish I could give credit where credit is due... but I don't remember who it was. Someone just gave a really excellent illustration of this... ...... There are postures where it's very difficult for your core to take the weight, and postures where it's easy. One of the objects of fitting is to find where that's easy.

I really hope that the frame isn't too small - though if what I understand what I am reading here there are other things that can be going on here regarding positioning and over-all bike comfort and the bar height may be fine....I really hope that proves to be true.


I guess I don't reallu understand why the bar end shifters are hard to use, even if they're low. You should be able to comfortable reach for your water bottles, which are much lower than your bars. Granted, I've never used bar end shifters, but I have to wonder if this is more a function of your general comfort level on the bike. As Oakleaf suggested in another thread, you're learning a lot in a short period of time.

And I agree that your bars seem high. Believe or not, your front end stability may have more to do with how your saddle is set up now. I agree that you may have too much weight in your hands, but raising the bars won't necessarily remedy that. Trust me on this.

Maybe I can see you on the bike if we get together for a ride.

This is good to hear Indysteel - that other things can be causing that front-end instability outside of bar height. I think that I will continue with my approach from the Shifting thread in new riders section - practice various movements on my Trek (which has been fit to me), lower my seat-post a smidgen on the LHT, pick a nice middle gear & basically treat it as a single-speed for now until I am comfortable doing those assorted movements on the Trek while on my Boone County country roads - then will work on doing those same movements on the LHT.

It would be good to go riding with you when we are both back from our trips. I am hoping this will be settled by then, but we will see :o

[Crankin]

Catrin, keep practicing whatever movements you think you need to have before you do any major adjustments, changing of shifters, etc. I'd hate to see you spend a lot of $, when this is more of a practice issue.
I am not sure it's easy for some to understand how it feels to not be able to take your hands off of the bars, or change position. I've been riding for almost ten years and I still have a very difficult time with the water bottle and will only drink while riding if the conditions are what i term "optimal."
I had a lot of issues using the drops until two years ago. There were no issues with the STI shifters, etc., that always seemed intuitive to me, even when i switched from trigger shifters, when I got my first road bike. But, I always felt like I was almost lying down when trying to ride in the drops. In observing my DH, I noticed he looked like he just moved his hands down, but his body stayed in the same position when switching to the drops. So, I knew the shape/position of my bars had something to do with it, but most of it was my shaky coordination. I knew my core was in pretty good shape (maybe not as good now :)), so I did 2 things. First, I bought the short and shallow bars. Did tons of research and narrowed it down to 2-3. I bought the Specialized ones, but there are others that would have been fine.
Then, I just made myself practice. The bars made a difference, but I found that by getting in the drops on flat roads, where I could put it in the big ring and go really helped.
I still don't feel as confident with my handling skills when in the drops, but I use them a lot now.

[indysteel]

I actually do understand why a new rider might have trouble reaching for bar end shifters or the water bottle. I know I did when I started riding again, but that's why I tend to think that Catrin's issues may have less to do with the bike set up and more with just being new to riding. Without at least seeing her on the bike, it's just so hard to tell. I'd suggest, too, that if the bike really does have squirrelly handling because of the way it's set up and/or in how Catrin's weight is distributed over it, then she would likely sense it all the time, not just when she takes one hand off the bars.

Catrin, I know Jonathan has told you that he would prefer to do a fitting once you have more miles on the bike, but you might explain your situation to him and ask if he might have some spare time to head out to the parking lot and watch you on the bike. If nothing immediately jumps out at him in terms of how you look and how the bike is set up, then I'd suggest that it's really just a matter of practicing.

If nothing else, let's try to find a time where we can meet for a ride. Bring both bikes so that I can at least watch you ride it. If we met at my house, I could even set it up on my trainer and look at your positioning. I've spent so much time with my own fittings that I feel like I have some idea what to look for.

[Becky]

I think Indy's onto something here. IMO, her suggestions are good ones. Hopefully, you can resolve this- good luck!

[OakLeaf]

Tangentially - from the picture, I would say that the stem IS short enough to make the bike pretty twitchy. The rise is so steep that it looks like the effective stem length is maybe 30% less than the actual measured length.

[Catrin]

I actually do understand why a new rider might have trouble reaching for bar end shifters or the water bottle. I know I did when I started riding again, but that's why I tend to think that Catrin's issues may have less to do with the bike set up and more with just being new to riding. Without at least seeing her on the bike, it's just so hard to tell. I'd suggest, too, that if the bike really does have squirrelly handling because of the way it's set up and/or in how Catrin's weight is distributed over it, then she would likely sense it all the time, not just when she takes one hand off the bars.

Catrin, I know Jonathan has told you that he would prefer to do a fitting once you have more miles on the bike, but you might explain your situation to him and ask if he might have some spare time to head out to the parking lot and watch you on the bike. If nothing immediately jumps out at him in terms of how you look and how the bike is set up, then I'd suggest that it's really just a matter of practicing.

If nothing else, let's try to find a time where we can meet for a ride. Bring both bikes so that I can at least watch you ride it. If we met at my house, I could even set it up on my trainer and look at your positioning. I've spent so much time with my own fittings that I feel like I have some idea what to look for.

I will call Jonathan's shop later today and ask them about at least doing a visual check with me riding through the parking lot. I understand why they want to wait on the fitting. Without input it is easy for me to assume that XYZ is the problem when it might actually be LMN or QRS.

It IS more difficult to hold a line on the LHT over the Trek - it is just increased greatly when I start trying to move around on the bike. If I can't work something out with Jonathan I will certainly take you up on your offer - though it would be nice if we could just go for a ride without the extra stuff :D

Sadly it is supposed to storm all weekend, but the 46 mph windgusts we are expecting this afternoon are "supposed" to be over by 4-5. I am hoping this happens so I can take the LHT back out for a little this evening and experiment with a slightly lower saddle after, hopefully, swinging by the LBS.

Thanks everone! This thread was started because someone I know suggested raising my bars a tad.

[indysteel]

Tangentially - from the picture, I would say that the stem IS short enough to make the bike pretty twitchy. The rise is so steep that it looks like the effective stem length is maybe 30% less than the actual measured length.

Good point. I went back to the pictures Catrin originally posted of the bike to get the bigger picture. Oakleaf is right that the stem is awfully short. Your bars are also high relative to your saddle. Was that a conscious decision on your part?

If you'd let me, I wouldn't mind riding the bike myself for a few minutes to get a feel for it.

[ny biker]

FWIW, I've been riding my road bike since late 2002, and while I'm comfortable taking my left hand off the bars (to get a drink, signal a turn, whatever), I'm still not comfortable holding the bar with my left hand and taking my right hand off for more than a split second. (I'm right-handed.) And I don't think I would like those bar end shifters at all.

Also, last year I had a very short riser stem put on my bike and I didn't notice any difference in handling or twitchiness (sp?) with the new stem. What I did notice was that my shoulders are no longer hunched all the time and most of my neck pains have gone away.

[tongue_tied]

Also, last year I had a very short riser stem put on my bike and I didn't notice any difference in handling or twitchiness (sp?) with the new stem. What I did notice was that my shoulders are no longer hunched all the time and most of my neck pains have gone away.

That's exactly why my bike shop fitted me with a very short riser stem. And it's definitely made a difference.

[Catrin]

I called the LBS that I want to perform the fitting and just explained the situation to them. I do not have to wait to reach the requisite mileage before they will fit me. So I just have to wait for some money to come in that I am expecting and will schedule the fitting. I may still move the shifters to the bars, but won't do anything else until afterwords.

[OakLeaf]

Just so you understand the concept, and I hope I can explain this right, it isn't really the length of the stem that makes the front wheel twitch in response to every hiccup of your hands ... it's the handlebar offset.

Extend an imaginary line through the center of your head tube and steerer tube. Now draw another imaginary line, parallel to the ground, from the center of your handlebars/handlebar clamp, toward the rear of the bike. The distance from your handlebars to the line coming from your steerer tube is the handlebar offset.

To take an extreme example, let's say you've got an adjustable stem, and you set it so there's no angle in it at all (I don't think that's possible, but just for the sake of argument) - it just extends straight up from your steerer tube. Now, it doesn't matter whether that stem is 6 cm or 16 cm, you've still got zero offset, and the bike will be nearly unrideable.

To take a more real world example, it looks like your stem rise may be as steep as 45° (which is pretty darn extreme) - let's say for the sake of argument that you have a stem with a 45° rise, because that way I can use the Pythagorean theorem and don't have to try to remember trigonometry. :rolleyes: (And somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)

Say you want an offset of 10 cm from a stem with a 45° rise. You've got an isosceles right triangle, with the offset line being one side and the stem itself as the hypotenuse. Using the Pythagorean theorem, you'll see that your stem must be a little over 14 cm (the square root of 200) to give you that offset. Working in the other direction, if you have a 6 cm stem with a 45° rise, your handlebar offset is a little over 4 cm. :eek:

[nscrbug]

That's exactly why my bike shop fitted me with a very short riser stem. And it's definitely made a difference.

x2...I have a short stem (80mm) with a fairly significant rise (17 degrees) on my bike, and I haven't noticed any handling issues. I too, have suffered from neck, shoulder, and hand/wrist pain...hence the shorter stem. I can't say with total certainty that it has helped a great deal (my frame is still too large), but it's better than it was before. I'm in the process of finding a new bike...one that fits me better...but until I find one, my too-large Trek will have to do for the time being, since I am trying to sell my Cervelo (which did fit me well, but was too aggressive geometry for me) and would like to keep it clean and ready to sell at a moments' notice.

[Catrin]

Good point. I went back to the pictures Catrin originally posted of the bike to get the bigger picture. Oakleaf is right that the stem is awfully short. Your bars are also high relative to your saddle. Was that a conscious decision on your part?

If you'd let me, I wouldn't mind riding the bike myself for a few minutes to get a feel for it.

IndySteel - you would be quite welcome to ride it for a few minutes to get a feel for it. Indeed I would like someone to who has much more experience than I do.

As far as the stem being so short - that is what came with the Complete build from Surly. The bar height came from the store, they applied the measurements from my 7.6 fitting to this bike. I am not going to change the bar height for now, but I will lower my saddle a scooch or two and if that helps for now.

Oakleaf - thank you for the explanation of stem and twitchiness. I am not very good at math I am afraid, but I got the idea. It doesn't SEEM that twitchy until I start moving around on the bike - though it is harder to hold a line with this bike than my Trek. Of course, I have 160 miles on my Trek, and 25 trainer miles and 20 riding miles on the LHT...

I am going to go ahead and have the shifters moved to the top of the bars...the more I think about it - the wiser an idea that seems. Same shifters, just on top of the bars rather than the ends.