West & East divide-cycling issues, non-car issues

[shootingstar]

Is there a knowledge gap in the U.S. between Seattle/Portland/San Francisco and what happens in NYC/Boston/Washington on cycling infrastructure, mass transit system developments?

It continues to amaze me after living, working and cycling (last 14 yrs.) for 20 yrs. in Toronto, now living in Vancouver since 2002, the lack of knowledge of what many Vancouverites know about Toronto and what Toronto knows about Vancouver ..on cycling infrastructure and mass transit issues.

It has resulted in some strange debates here in Vancouver..people who support aboveground elevated light rail, (instead of underground, which I know is more expensive...), streetcars/trams for really long distances in busy congested travel corridors, ungated transit stations, etc. Long, exhausting arguments, justifications, etc.

On the other side, I feed info. to a friend in Ontario who lives in Toronto and works in transportation policy, about Vancouver developments.

Maybe it's too much info. for folks on Internet, so people can only know what's happening locally. If they know at all the right info. :confused:

Maybe it's attitude of some WEst coast people about the East and vice versa. I dunno.

[Grog]

I am experiencing the East-West at work these days (on a totally different topic) and it never ceases to amaze me. In my line of work it often starts with the West people thinking that the East people think the West people are dumb, and the West people deciding not to share anything with the East people anymore, preferring to deal with neighbours in the PNW instead. :)

This being said, I feel that the urban fabric of the Eastern cities is very, very different from that of the Western ones. Of course we can learn from one another, and we should. I like subscribing to the World Carfree Network's magazine and mailing list because of all the amazing stuff I learn there.

On the other hand I don't think there's anything such as "right information." What worked in one place doesn't necessarily work in another.

For example the mere fact that cities like Montreal and Boston have existed for 400 years (compared to about 100 for Vancouver) make a big difference in infrastructure matters. In the same vein, I'm all for 'Copenhagenizing,' but the truth is that the variables are TOTALLY different here and solutions can't be imported without some serious thought if we want them to work. The density of cities is also very, very different.

[shootingstar]

the West people deciding not to share anything with the East people anymore, preferring to deal with neighbours in the PNW instead. :)

This being said, I feel that the urban fabric of the Eastern cities is very, very different from that of the Western ones. Of course we can learn from one another, and we should. I like subscribing to the World Carfree Network's magazine and mailing list because of all the amazing stuff I learn there.

On the other hand I don't think there's anything such as "right information." What worked in one place doesn't necessarily work in another.

For example the mere fact that cities like Montreal and Boston have existed for 400 years (compared to about 100 for Vancouver) make a big difference in infrastructure matters. In the same vein, I'm all for 'Copenhagenizing,' but the truth is that the variables are TOTALLY different here and solutions can't be imported without some serious thought if we want them to work. The density of cities is also very, very different.

I do see too much of the Western side of North America just tending to share alot more willingly on mass transportation, etc. Somehow I attribute to convenience, same time zone. I dunno. or maybe it's a shared vibe thing. Why on earth is there such little discussion among Vancouverites/Americans, on what has happened in Montreal with Velo Quebec in cycling infrastructure planning on west coast? I heard more about it in Ontario. Ottawa has done some good work, yet we hardly hear about developments discussed here on the west coast. Velo Quebec has been years ahead running their organization like..a business.

I agree the urban fabric, particularily the big metropolitan cities over 1 million in Toronto, Montreal are each very different. I was looking at some personal photos of the ethnic neighbourhoods in Toronto, Kensington, Greektown, Little Italy... Commercial St. in Vancouver does not compare. Not at all. Just totally different, more dense, more diverse than Vancouver. Cycling around in Toronto, one feels a far great hyperactive energy/pacing (despite greater traffic congestion and slowness of cars) and abit edgier for barely controlled chaos of urban life.

Abit off topic: The other day, I read that Sam Adams, mayor for Portland, OR wanted to compare his city to ...Freiburg, Germany (http://pricetags.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/keeping-portland-weird/). It just makes a person laugh. We will be going there in June for a few days. Dearie, who understands the German cities vibe a whole lot more since he has been to several German towns and cities several trips, can't even understand this type of green city comparison. Sure Freiburg is bike friendly and has some other great things going that make it green, but it a medieval based town steeped in history, with its old town square, castle, etc. and much smaller. Cannot compare really compare to any North American city. Would Quebec City be comparable??? Probably not (what a windy city to bike around).

[crazycanuck]

Same situation down this way.

The grass is not greener out east!

[shootingstar]

Same situation down this way.

The grass is not greener out east!

You mean Sydney is viewed as "too much" of everyting else bad about cities? :) It's the "bad boy" or "bad girl" of Aussieland? Or you're talking about way east past the Pacific Ocean?

[NbyNW]

My first year in Seattle, the Monorail was dying a slow painful death. I remember a conversation where one woman I was chatting with felt it was the wrong thing for Seattle because "East Coast intellectuals shouldn't parachute in here and all of a sudden be an expert on what Seattle needs."

While I've never been exactly sure what she was basing this on, I thought her statement spoke volumes about the tensions between east and west.

To the extent that people aren't curious about things that happen outside their back yards, sure, there can be a knowledge gap.

[shootingstar]

Ach. We are going to Copenhagen for a few days, so I'll be curious to see this wonderful cycling-steeped city. :)

But my gut feel tells me powerfully that at least for cycling advocacy, things in certain big North American cities needs to be handled differently to encourage more people to cycle, not to be overly reliant on car for short trips, etc. Our population demographics are different for certain cities (big time in certain groups), marketing of cycling as viable transportation has to be done abit differently and of course, the basic bone structure of a city layout would offer different solutions that could be borrowed in parts from Copenhagen, but never completely.

[Eden]

My first year in Seattle, the Monorail was dying a slow painful death. I remember a conversation where one woman I was chatting with felt it was the wrong thing for Seattle because "East Coast intellectuals shouldn't parachute in here and all of a sudden be an expert on what Seattle needs."

??? I grew up on the east coast (Pittsburgh to be exact) and I always thought the monorail was a bad idea.....
Things are definitely done differently out here. We did not have citizen's initiatives where I was growing up. I find it to be a bit, ah, inefficient.... I mean we vote in people we expect to be experts (or to be able to hire experts) to make the hard decisions...... ask the citizens and getting a rational or quick answer is not always (often not) possible, but maybe that's just the east coast in me talking :rolleyes:

[NbyNW]

??? I grew up on the east coast (Pittsburgh to be exact) and I always thought the monorail was a bad idea.....
Things are definitely done differently out here. We did not have citizen's initiatives where I was growing up. I find it to be a bit, ah, inefficient.... I mean we vote in people we expect to be experts (or to be able to hire experts) to make the hard decisions...... ask the citizens and getting a rational or quick answer is not always (often not) possible, but maybe that's just the east coast in me talking :rolleyes:

That was pretty much my reaction too -- it was a citizen's initiative and then this woman was blaming the mess on some perceived "outsider(s)". Maybe it said more about her than about Seattle, I don't know.

[OakLeaf]

The Bike Snob in Portland (http://outside.away.com/outside/destinations/201005/bike-snob-nyc-portland-oregon-1.html) pretty much sums up the east/west divide, even to the extent of being so dumbstruck he's incapable of being snobbish while in Portland.

[PamNY]

I wouldn't think much of East/West differences in discussing cycling in US -- living in NYC I would likely have more in common talking to cyclists in San Francisco than cyclists in Atlanta or Nashville.

Cities are so different -- as others have pointed out, age of city and population density are two things that would radically affect any transportation planning.

Do we know for a fact that people don't look to other cities for ideas? During the (admittedly minor) involvement I've had in transportation planning there was discussion of what has gone on in other cities.

OT but marginally related: I was always amused by my native-New-Yorker friend who was outraged that you couldn't just hail a cab in other cities like you can in Manhattan. He was intelligent and educated, too.

[shootingstar]

I wouldn't think much of East/West differences in discussing cycling in US -- living in NYC I would likely have more in common talking to cyclists in San Francisco than cyclists in Atlanta or Nashville.

Cities are so different -- as others have pointed out, age of city and population density are two things that would radically affect any transportation planning.

Do we know for a fact that people don't look to other cities for ideas? During the (admittedly minor) involvement I've had in transportation planning there was discussion of what has gone on in other cities.

OT but marginally related: I was always amused by my native-New-Yorker friend who was outraged that you couldn't just hail a cab in other cities like you can in Manhattan. He was intelligent and educated, too.

If you talk to cycling advocates here who have lived in Vancouver for a long time (longer than me which is 8 yrs.), they tend to know more deeply and have more interest/connection what is happening on cycling infrastructure planning on the West Coast ....vs. in Toronto. There is interest in NYC here probably because of some cycling developments and a couple of dynamic NYC individuals who talk about cycling in an intelligent, yet accessible and captivating way.

Recently we published this article (http://thirdwavecyclingblog.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/separated-bike-lanes-changing-the-downtown-paradigm-for-transportation-in-toronto-and-vancouver/)to give our spin on a very recent development in Toronto.


Even though people who work full-time in transportation planning with a strong focus in cycling, one does not find much cross-reference in published articles, comments between blogs, newsletters, websites between the 2 cities.

Sometimes it's just lack of time, sometimes certain things are not easy to compare. But also the cycling terrain and city layout for Vancouver compared to Toronto, is quite different. However I argue based on living in the 2 cities long enough, plus latest census statistics, that Vancouver is better off looking at how Toronto, Los Angeles...handles cycling advocacy because demographically Vancouver is way more diverse than Portland both in numbers and porportionality.

But sometimes all it takes are 1-3 dynamic spokespersons with a regional/international profile from certain cities to highlight what is going on cycling-wise in their respective home cities.

I dunno. Maybe it's the Rocky Mountain range that creates that pyschological block at times. Seriously.

Or people who work in cycling as a full-time job, are engrossed in immediate local matters which pits them against funding for new highways, bridges, etc. or dealing with local businesses who may not want a bike lane, etc.

[NbyNW]

I wouldn't think much of East/West differences in discussing cycling in US -- living in NYC I would likely have more in common talking to cyclists in San Francisco than cyclists in Atlanta or Nashville.

Cities are so different -- as others have pointed out, age of city and population density are two things that would radically affect any transportation planning.

Do we know for a fact that people don't look to other cities for ideas? During the (admittedly minor) involvement I've had in transportation planning there was discussion of what has gone on in other cities.

OT but marginally related: I was always amused by my native-New-Yorker friend who was outraged that you couldn't just hail a cab in other cities like you can in Manhattan. He was intelligent and educated, too.

I think climate is a factor, too. Cycling season is just beginning here in Edmonton -- I did notice a few intrepid cyclists who stick with it through winter, but by and large this is a city for cars. The trail system is decent -- I'm just beginning to explore it, and I expect I will find routes that are more appropriate for the mtb than for the road bike.

As for your New York friend -- I can relate b/c I lived in NYC for a number of years -- I think New Yorkers view cabs as just another transit option, and another reason they don't need to own a car. If you are traveling at a weird time of day or need to take a route that requires some weird transfers, or you're simply going someplace that doesn't have convenient service, the cab becomes another option.

I was shocked when I moved to San Francisco, my firm hosted an event at SF City Hall, and at 10:30 pm there was not a cab to be hailed. Our boss suggested we "call a cab" as she made her way to her car. But this was in the late 90s when some of us didn't feel obliged to have a cell phone, and yet payphones were already extinct in that neighborhood. And the other option was walk through a sketchy neighborhood to a bus stop. Enough experiences like that, you eventually find yourself at a car dealer.

[OakLeaf]

What I was commenting on, and BSNYC too, was really the culture. Little things, like tinkling a little bell is apparently enough in the PNW to get pedestrians on a MUP to part like the Red Sea, whereas we Easterners were quite seriously discussing air horns and wondering whether even those would be enough to get the attention of families and people with iPods. Like, regularly getting buzzed, yelled at, and having things thrown at you by automobile drivers. Like, having cops yell at and even ticket you for safe, legal riding. Like the existence of non-limited-access roads that a sane vehicular cyclist would never consider riding on.

Like - probably most of all - the simple fact that automobile drivers who are trying to be courteous to bicyclists actually know how to do so - by driving consistently and predictably and giving you plenty of space - rather than doing scary dangerous stuff like stopping dead at random places to wave you through, tailgating you for miles because they're afraid to pass but too impatient to back off your rear wheel, or buzzing you so as not to cross the yellow line.

Those aren't rural/urban things. I've never ridden in a really large city - and I wouldn't count New York in any discussion, because all traffic in NYC is a thing unto itself - but across the East, I experience the same behavior in small cities, towns, and rural areas; and when I've traveled bikeless to California, I've observed the absence of said behavior in San Francisco as well as many towns and outlying areas.


ETA: and climate is most definitely not a factor (except maybe in reverse? :confused:). Peninsular Florida is arguably the most cyclist-unfriendly place to ride in the USA. Minneapolis and the rain-soaked PNW are known to be two of the most cyclist-friendly.