Plastic BPA drinking glasses for grown ups...

[Flybye]

We are in the market for more drinking glasses. We like our plastic ones primarily because we take them outside in the summer. I am looking for 16+ ounce size plastic cups - and am having a hard time finding BPA free ones. Any suggestions either on-line or in stores would be helpful.

[TsPoet]

As a scientist who works with BPA.... Oh never mind, you don't want to hear the truth. Go ahead, find a cup that doesn't have all the benefits of BPA and is much more expensive, you'll feel better because of media hype BS.

[Flybye]

As a scientist who works with BPA.... Oh never mind, you don't want to hear the truth. Go ahead, find a cup that doesn't have all the benefits of BPA and is much more expensive, you'll feel better because of media hype BS.

Please share your thoughts - I welcome broadening my mind.

[beccaB]

I would like to know too- any scientisits out there working with parabens and other cosmetic ingredients?

[smilingcat]

Hi TSPoet,

I would like to know to without the media hype and BS. So please let us in on your thoughts.

BTW, in college I started as a physics, major, then went to Chem E. then ended up as an EE. And there are others here with chemical background and I'm sure they would like to know too.

I was more into statistical thermodynamics with Grand Canonical Equations, Eyering rate of reaction theory, simpler version is arrhenius (sp) rate of reaction Aexp(-Ea/kt)... so I am very much interested in what you have to say.

sincerely,

Smilingcat

[TsPoet]

um, OK...
First, I have a PhD in Pharmacology/Toxicology and my sub-field is pharmacokinetics and risk assessment. Back in 15xx, Paracelsus said something to the effect of "the dose makes the poison" (if you google Paracelsus, you'll find what he really said, but that's close enough). Basically what that means is, it doesn't matter if its toxic if you don't get enough of it. Everything is toxic, I've heard stories of people drinking too much water and dieing. Bisphenol A is a big example of this - in studies in rats where they dose with huge amounts of the stuff it has a whole bunch of adverse effects, and its has a fairly well defined mechanism of action. It's mechanism of action is relevant to humans. So, now, media and lots of poeple start screaming, take it out of everything! Which sounds like it makes sence, but
here's the rub. A tiny, almost infinitesimal amount of BPA leaches into your food and water. So, your dose is a fraction of the rat's dose. But, what does that mean? Well, you have to take it a step further, what amount of that absorbs through your intestine? Again, that's a fraction of the infinitesimal "dose" that got there. In fact, studies being done in humans are hampered by detection limits - the amount getting in is so tiny it can't be measured. Oh - in fact there are studies being done in humans - that right there says a lot. My group works with BPA, I don't personally do that. I work with pesticides - we couldn't get permission to do any of the studies that are being done with BPA with our pesticides.
The first big study with BPA that started all this hype can't be repeated, several labs have tried and they just can't get the same results.
So, much of what you've heard about BPA is true - at very very high doses in rats. At low doses - absolutely nothing. Your body is an amazing thing, it can safely clear not only BPA but millions of other things you are exposed to everyday.
BPA is one of the latest-greatest hypes. Wait a few years, it will be something else.
I purposefully expose myself to so many much much more toxic things - alcohol, caffeine, benzene (in gasoline, nasty stuff)... But these we all accept because they've always been there.

[smilingcat]

aspirin in large dose is fatal too.

The question that begs then, is BPA toxicity cumulative like heavy metal poisoning or does the body manage to heal itself before the next round of low level exposure?

sometimes trying to study events at or near the limits of reliable detection leads to junk science. Cold fusion is a good example.

so thank you for your perspective. I really wonder at times of "accelerated life testing" or other testing methods and extrapolating down. It makes me cringe.

[OakLeaf]

So we have to know definitively that something is harmful before we decide to avoid it? What about Catrin's helmet, that had no visible evidence of damage from her fall? Do you also think it was stupid for me to advise her to get a new one?

None of the studies have examined BPA in combination with any of the other endocrine disruptors that are ubiquitous in our environment. The OP never said that avoiding BPA was the only step she was taking to reduce her risk. If she's like me, she's already reduced or discontinued alcohol consumption, wears nitrile gloves to change her vehicles' oil and lube their chains, doesn't allow the electric company to spray 2,4-D on her property, etc., etc. Nor did she say what her inalterable personal risk factors might be, nor would I expect her to in this forum.

What's so important about polycarbonate tableware and packaging, that you have to sneer at people who want to avoid it?



To the OP... why not stainless steel? Does it have to be plastic?

[Tri Girl]

tsPoet- thank you for your side, and telling what you see on a daily basis. Hearing from both sides is important in order to make a logical conclusion based on what's best for an individual. Thank your for sharing!

I will still decide stay away from PBA, nitrates, parabens, lauryl sulphates, etc.
I think we've become toxic in our society, and I'm trying my best (for me) to eliminate anything unnatural as much as possible (on the outside, or what I put inside me for that matter). I might be a tad off the deep end in some respects, but it's what's best for me.
I know the media gets on it's "kicks" sometimes... for good or bad.

Back to the op- I couldn't find ANYTHING when looking online. Sippy cups galore- but NOTHING more than 10 oz. Wow- you wouldn't think it would be so hard to find that kind of thing for adults.

[moonfroggy]

we use stainless steel mugs i got from http://lifewithoutplastic.com/

they hold 13 oz not a lot but a nice amount and i like how they look and got the pitcher they sell with them.

[channlluv]

So you're saying it's okay if I leave a disposable plastic bottle of water in the car, it gets hot, then cools off again, and I can drink it anyway? Because right now I save those for rinsing our feet after the beach.

And nail polish...that's okay, too? Woohoo! I'm back on for mani-pedis. As soon as I get down to 220, I'm treating myself.

Roxy

[Melalvai]

Our country is "innocent until proven guilty" which works great for the courts but maybe not so appropriate for potentially toxic chemicals and drugs. Industry would have us believe these things are safe because no one has showed that they aren't. Then when you really start to look at it, you realize no one has really tried.

I did my PhD in the lab whose results "can't be repeated" (vom Saal) and--it was the chemical industry "attempting" to replicate the experiment. Their published studies have huge logistical holes. Sure, other independent labs should try to replicate the studies. But try getting funding to do a study that has already been published.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to detect delayed and subtle effects in populations. There is probably a subset of our population that is vulnerable to hormone effects. In a typical study we won't see the effects because we don't have a good way to identify these susceptible individuals.

Do you want to take the chance that BPA is innocent because we haven't proven it guilty yet? Are you confident that you are not in that vulnerable subset of our population?

But the sad fact is that you can't eliminate your (or your baby's) exposure to BPA. Hundreds of tons are released into the environment every year during production. It is in our water and air. Eliminating your polycarbonate bottles & dishes is futile because unless the plastic is old, pitted & cracked, it is not leaching much BPA.

[Melalvai]

So you're saying it's okay if I leave a disposable plastic bottle of water in the car, it gets hot, then cools off again, and I can drink it anyway? Because right now I save those for rinsing our feet after the beach.
Roxy

Those bottles aren't polycarbonate. They are a different kind of plastic that does not contain BPA. Polycarbonate is a translucent, hard, brittle plastic.

You will get more BPA from eating food that comes in metal cans, which are lined with a BPA resin.

[channlluv]

Gotcha.

Okay, so how do we flush these toxins from our bodies?

Roxy -- hormonal problems in the process of being diagnosed, so you've got me wondering here...

[Owlie]

TsPoet can jump in here, because I'm just a biology undergrad, but in general, your liver modifies most of the not-food chemicals we ingest into something less toxic, and it makes its way to the kidneys for excretion.

The fun begins, however, with lipid-soluble things. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism, but I imagine that while some of it gets flushed out, some of it ends up being deposited in adipocytes (fat cells). Most of the time, it's not a big problem. It becomes a problem when you start burning that fat.

Roxy, may I ask why the concern about nail polish?

[MartianDestiny]

BPA issue aside (IE: I'll keep my scientist trap closed) this may just be an issue of waiting a few more weeks until the stores get their spring/summer "picnic and BBQ" gear out in full swing.

Here's some I found:
http://www.preserveproducts.com

BPA free, USA made, 100% recycled, 100% recyclable. I got a few of their bowls to take camping with us. They seem well made and reasonably light. I found them at Target; not sure if their website lists other dealers.

[OakLeaf]

Polypropylene does seem reasonably safe right now... but it is known to leach some chemicals, and don't forget that polycarbonate was touted as super-safe by the "natural living" crowd until maybe five years ago. I'd stick with glass, stainless steel, or (lead-free, obviously) ceramic.

I just have to throw in the Endocrine Society's position statement (http://www.endo-society.org/advocacy/policy/upload/Endocrine-Disrupting-Chemicals-Position-Statement.pdf) on endocrine disruptors, then I'm done.

[Flybye]

BPA issue aside (IE: I'll keep my scientist trap closed) this may just be an issue of waiting a few more weeks until the stores get their spring/summer "picnic and BBQ" gear out in full swing.

Here's some I found:
http://www.preserveproducts.com

BPA free, USA made, 100% recycled, 100% recyclable. I got a few of their bowls to take camping with us. They seem well made and reasonably light. I found them at Target; not sure if their website lists other dealers.

Since I threw away all of my old plastic cups before posting this thread, I will have to take a look at Target. We actually have one of those nearby :eek: which is pretty amazing for this neck of the woods!
Thx

Thanks too, for all of the insight on this subject. I always go the "better safe than sorry" route.

[bmccasland]

I have a stash of gen-u-wine, caught at Mardi Gras parades, plastic cups, in roughly 16 oz size that I'll happily mail you. If you're not picky that the cups don't match. I even have cups left over from last year. How many would you like???? :D

PM me, I'm not kidding.

Each Krewe (crew), (the club that sponsors a parade, or sub-krewe sometimes that marches within a parade) has cups made every year. And I swear they breed if left unattended.

[arielmoon]

I think something that is often missed is that there may be trace amounts in one item but how many items are we exposed to in any one day?

Take parabens for example. It's in your conditioner, shave cream, hand lotion, body lotion, lip balm, makeup, butt butter, sport cream, antiperspirant (?) etc

By the time you put all that on the largest organ, your skin, do you have more than a trace amount in you body? And if you do it for years upon years is there a build up? I dont think research can tell yet.

[tangentgirl]

As a scientist who works with BPA.... Oh never mind, you don't want to hear the truth. Go ahead, find a cup that doesn't have all the benefits of BPA and is much more expensive, you'll feel better because of media hype BS.

This all sound like a business opportunity to me. That is, if you don't mind making some cash off of people's fears. Hmm. :rolleyes:

[MommyBird]

Nothing scientific about this suggestion.

We have polycarbonate glasses from Williams-Sanoma that have been through the dishwasher for at least three years. None have cracked like our previous clear plastic purchases. They are a bit cloudy but not too bad. I do not baby them.
We have Target brand polycarbonate glasses in our RV. They are hand washed, much newer, and used less frequently so they are crystal clear.

The WS glasses were expensive compared to the Target. I can't say if the Target will hold up under the dishwasher like the WS. Anyone out there have Target polycarbonates that have experienced dishwasher abuse?

The cracking in the dishwasher was the major drawback with the non-polycarbonate versions we had previously used.

[MartianDestiny]

Nothing scientific about this suggestion.

We have polycarbonate glasses from Williams-Sanoma that have been through the dishwasher for at least three years. None have cracked like our previous clear plastic purchases. They are a bit cloudy but not too bad. I do not baby them.
We have Target brand polycarbonate glasses in our RV. They are hand washed, much newer, and used less frequently so they are crystal clear.

The WS glasses were expensive compared to the Target. I can't say if the Target will hold up under the dishwasher like the WS. Anyone out there have Target polycarbonates that have experienced dishwasher abuse?

The cracking in the dishwasher was the major drawback with the non-polycarbonate versions we had previously used.

The preservedproducts I mentioned have been through the dishwasher twice with no ill effects, but we simply don't use them that much.

They aren't Target brand. Apparently (after a bit more research) I can get them at Crate and Barrel (clearly not a cheap store) or any of a number of natural foods stores (including Whole Foods and Sprouts).

Not sure how they'd hold up long term, but on the other hand they are cheap and easily recycled, so you could toss them if they started getting icky after a year or so.

[SadieKate]

TsPoet, I would like to know if the various studies were based on stored liquid or liquid that is just temporarily in the container. Obviously a gin & tonic taken out to the bocce ball court isn't going to sit in the glass for long. Similarly, wine doesn't last long in my high lead count crystal wine glasses, but we no longer use our crystal decanters.

The comment about BPA in canned food is significant. Sometimes the 5 second rule is valid. ;)

[maillotpois]

Obviously a gin & tonic taken out to the bocce ball court isn't going to sit in the glass for long.


Not if you are the one making them and I'm the one drinking them.....

[SadieKate]

Let me amendment my statement:

Obviously a gin & tonic taken out to the bocce ball court isn't going to sit in the glass at all if maillotpois is around.

[tulip]

If it concerns you, why not just use glass? Wrapping them in cloth napkins protects them in transit if you are going on a picnic. And if it's for adults, like the original post indicated, there shouldn't be much danger of breaking them. Especially if it's just for at-home patio use, glass is the way to go. Drinks taste better in glass.

I keep a ball jar of water in my car. No plastic taste, reusable, recyclable, the perfect material.

[SadieKate]

Is that "you" referring to me or the OP?

I'm mostly an inquiring-mind-wanting-to-know about the duration of storage in the studies.

[tulip]

Is that "you" referring to me or the OP?

I'm mostly an inquiring-mind-wanting-to-know about the duration of storage in the studies.

I was referring to everyone who has concerns about plastics. The collective "you."

I suppose I could have used "one," but that seems so formal and reminds me too much of my 7th grade English teacher.

[OakLeaf]

The position statement I posted - and the Endocrine Society's statement to the FDA - references numerous smaller studies that do show a correlation with adverse health effects at serum and tissue concentrations commonly found in modern humans. The health effects are of the same type for which causative relationships were found in higher-dose animal studies.

That's why the endocrinologists thought that caution and further study are warranted.

What exactly is wrong with caution, again? This isn't like, say, the hype over vaccines, or even mammograms, where there is a known and clearly defined risk to avoiding them. There is absolutely no downside to choosing materials other than polycarbonate for your food and drink containers.

[MommyBird]

I forgot about these.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/80134821
We have had these for several months and they have been going through the dishwasher with no ill effect.
We use them in our pool house so they do not see super heavy use.
There is no safety info on the Ikea site.
They are very thin and light weight compared to the Target and William-Sanoma models we own. These are also the best value of all three.

I prefer clear drinking glasses and I avoid glass in the pool house and the trailer. These work great for me.
As I was born in 1960, I have been through my share of product scares. It is almost exciting to see what will be the next killer product fixation.

[MartianDestiny]

What exactly is wrong with caution, again?

Caution is fine, the hype is getting old. I'm tired of people literally yelling at me and insulting my intelligence because I refuse to throw away my perfectly good Nalgene bottles that are pre-"BPA free" era and I refuse to make it a personal major issue when shopping for things. I find it especially aggravating and intrusive since there is very little (if any) evidence that NORMAL USE will cause me any harm.

And for entertainment and illustrative purposes I submit the following:
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

[OakLeaf]

Erm, no one here yelled at you or insulted your intelligence. More than one poster insulted the OP's intelligence.

[channlluv]

If it concerns you, why not just use glass? ...I keep a ball jar of water in my car. No plastic taste, reusable, recyclable, the perfect material.

As a daughter of the South, I am truly disappointed in myself in that I did not think of this myself. Do you re-use a popped lid or do you use a fresh one?

And how easy to pop in a couple of tea bags and have sun tea waiting for you when you get off work. Brilliant.

Roxy

[bmccasland]

What no takers for *Free* Mardi Gras cups? They are breeding...:D


(which is due to the magical properties of Mardi Gras, nothing chemical what-so-ever)

[channlluv]

...while some of it gets flushed out, some of it ends up being deposited in adipocytes (fat cells). Most of the time, it's not a big problem. It becomes a problem when you start burning that fat.

Roxy, may I ask why the concern about nail polish?

Doggone it, the fat-burning is releasing toxins, too? Ai-yay-yay.

Regarding the nail polish, I attended a women's luncheon a couple or three years ago where the speaker had received a research grant from the organization and was there to speak about her study findings. She's the one who warned us off leaving plastic water bottles to get hot in cars, and off nail polish, because of the pthalates (I'm not sure I spelled that correctly) in the polish. Not that I've ever been a regular at the nail salon, but even the twice-a-year visit leaves me wondering about dangerous chemical exposure.

I did turn around and leave a salon back in August because when my daughter and I walked in, the chemicals in the air were so thick it burned our eyes. (From acrylics, I think.)

It's the cumulative exposure that has me worried.

My endocrinologist, after telling me I have a Vitamin D3 insufficiency (not quite as bad as a deficiency), even though I spend about five hours a week out in the afternoon sun with not a whole lot of clothing on, blamed the nationwide problem on the poor nutritional quality of our food. He said our food just isn't as nutritious as it used to be, and even though I eat a mostly organic diet now, it's a lifetime of not-as-smart food choices that have me in this predicament.

Roxy

[SadieKate]

And how easy to pop in a couple of tea bags and have sun tea waiting for you when you get off work. Brilliant.

Roxy

Well, at least your bacteria will be BPA-free. :p
http://www.snopes.com/food/prepare/suntea.asp

[channlluv]

Oh geez, is nothing sacred anymore?

Oy.

:P

Roxy

[TsPoet]

TsPoet, I would like to know if the various studies were based on stored liquid or liquid that is just temporarily in the container. Obviously a gin & tonic taken out to the bocce ball court isn't going to sit in the glass for long. Similarly, wine doesn't last long in my high lead count crystal wine glasses, but we no longer use our crystal decanters.

The comment about BPA in canned food is significant. Sometimes the 5 second rule is valid. ;)

Sorry, I've been at the annual Society of Toxicology meeting. I'm afraid the container-leaching details are beyond me. I have a colleague doing a study right now investigating the amount of BPA that can be measured in people's blood after consuming meals of food from containers with BPA (applesauce and spam are on the menu, as well as numerous other similar goods). If I remember, I'll post in about a year when he publishes his results.

[Cataboo]

Lol.

The other day I was in Costco and I saw two different sets of plastic glasses that were marked BPA free and I thought... oh, I should post about them in that TE thread and then I didn't, because this thread kept coming up with 2-3 pages of comments on it and I thought, surely someone has already told her that you can go to costco and get these sets of bpa free glasses for $10-20 or something.

But apparently I was completely off my mark! Now that I've read this thread.

As for plastics... I'm gonna spare telling everyone what my phd is in and the rest of that. I avoid them when convenient. I took a graduate level course in dna mutagenesis, blah blah blah from a really highly respected professor who told us all about how everything we were using was screamingly mutagenic. Including my shampoo and conditioner. I enjoy clean unknotted hair. That is all I have to say about that. Caffeine & alcohol are synergistically very mutagenic. I will still drink bailey's irish creme in my coffee occasionally - although I have a friend that does it every morning. Almost any plastic in monomeric form (when it breaks down) is mutagenic. Yes, most of these studies are done by either the Ames test or massive amounts being injected into rats and mice.

But you only have to look at studies of what they find in the breast milk of eskimos or the fat of polar bears and seals and whales to realize that all of these toxins accumulate in our bodies over time.

So - I haven't gotten rid of any of my plastic bottles, 'cause they're convenient. I do have a few new sigg bottles, but like I'm putting a metal bottle on a bike for a ride. And I use hydration bladders biking, kayaking and hiking. They might be bpa free, but I haven't really paid attention.

I do microwave & store food in glass containers and use those instead of plastic. I switched all my cookware to cast iron so as to not deal with the anti-stick stuff leaching.

It was somewhat funny, after new year's a friend & I drove down to Florida for a kayaking vacation and I had called her before hand and said... "You cannot bring glass containers of water when we're kayak camping. There's no room in the kayak. You will drink out of plastic... " Because anytime we go hiking or biking, she wants to bring along glass mason jars to hold her water. And I sorta do the.. right, if you want to carry those, go right ahead.

So I go to pick her up, and she loads 4 big apple juice glass jugs full of water into my car... And I do the... Erm... YOu realize there is water in florida... She says yep, but I have good water, they don't have good clean water like I do. I do the... "we are not putting big glass jars of water into the kayaks and going camping in the everglades with them... Big glass jars are not going to pack well in the kayak and it's going to imbalance them" And she says, right, this is just for when we're near the car.

So she did consent to drinking water out of plastic containers while kayak touring, but just seemed to try to minimize it as much as possible. She wouldn't eat any camp food I had brought that had B vitamins added to them or any high fructose corn syrup, so we ended up packing separate food bags for the trip. Apparently synthetic B vitamins are bad, so cliff bars can't be consumed. There were various other bad things that couldn't be consumed or pass her lips. It made things a bit complicated, and packing 2 separate sets of food takes up space and weight - which while not a huge big deal in a kayak it does add to the effort.

[Jlo]

That's why I prefer the drinking glasses, my health is good and will be for many years ;), the only problem they're expensive:http://www.twenga.com/dir-Housewares,Glassware,Drinking-glasses , the world is unconscious, we need more glasses products but we created more and more cups and other plastic objects, the world is going down :(

[OakLeaf]

http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/early/2012/03/14/er.2011-1050.full.pdf+html

Lay summary here (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=low-doses-hormone-like-chemicals-may-have-big-effects).

Short version: "the dose makes the poison" doesn't mean that smaller concentrations are safer, when it comes to hormones and hormone disruption; the way the body handles hormones means that smaller amounts may actually be more dangerous.

Be safe, all.



(Also this (http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.1003220) from last year; granted the study was funded by an "alternative" plastics company, but that fact doesn't make me trust the products they tested any more, it just means I don't trust their product, either.)

[PamNY]

Tervis has a 16 oz. tumbler.

http://www.tervis.com/

[TsPoet]

So, I don't know if you can open it, but here is an article by our group... (someone suggested my comments were from a "business" point of view - um, I work for a Nat'l lab, so not really...)
http://apps.webofknowledge.com/InboundService.do?SID=1EflEpMfeg7MO4eEbeG&product=WOS&UT=000294557500005&SrcApp=CR&DestFail=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webofknowledge.com&Init=Yes&action=retrieve&Func=Frame&customersID=ResearchSoft&SrcAuth=ResearchSoft&IsProductCode=Yes&mode=FullRecord

And here are some somewhat scientific editorials on it...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/trevorbutterworth/2011/07/25/majestically-scientific-federal-study-on-bpa-has-stunning-findings-so-why-is-the-media-ignoring-it/

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Quality-Safety/US-Government-study-casts-significant-doubts-over-bisphenol-A-threat

and here's a load of BS about it - that is what people are choosing to believe - so read away and enjoy
http://grist.org/food/2011-09-26-did-a-government-study-just-prove-bpa-is-safe/

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/how-lobbyists-are-spinning-weak-science-to-defend-bpa/245657/

[OakLeaf]

Scientific uncertainty is no excuse for failing to protect public health. (http://bcaction.org/2012/03/21/scientific-uncertainty-is-no-excuse-for-failing-to-protect-public-health/)

The title says it all.

[smilingcat]

One thing I would like to point out is that because of BPA coated cans, rarely do we see any rusted canned goods. In the old days, you would occasionally see a leaking can of canned food or worse yet, a bloated can because the can rusted enough to be compromised.

Sometimes, choices are matter of lesser of two evils.