Salsa Fargo - sad news

[Catrin]

I wanted to find SOME way of determining the fit of the Fargo before I fell more in love - and being that I can't find a small version in driving distance to try - I contacted the Serotta fitting specialist at my LBS who did a body fit on Stella for me.

I didn't expect such a quick response - and I have included it below. Some of this has my head spinning when I read it - but I think the gist of it is that he things there is little chance the even the small Fargo will fit me... here is what he said:

"When I compare your fitting data with the geometry chart of the Fargo, I find several things. If we were building you a custom frame we would build it with a 50cm top tube (or as close as possible). The smallest Fargo frame (16") has a 54cm top tube. The custom (50cm) top tube assumes a 120mm length stem, so going with Fargo would require going all the way down to an 80mm stem. Stems that short can change the handling (i.e. steering response) of a bike.

Another concern is stand-over clearance, the Fargo requires a minimum 77cm inseam and your inseam is 78cm. That's very close. Usually, it's ideal to have at least 4-5cm clearance for a loaded touring bike, especially one with a sloping top tube. Less than that and dismounting the loaded bike can be positively dangerous.

Next is the seat tube angle. Your current bike has about a 75 degree angle and you require a very small 3mm setback of the saddle nose to the center of the bottom bracket. The steeper seat tube angle greatly simplifies moving the saddle that far forward. The Fargo has a very laid-back (by comparison) 73 degree seat tube angle. I don't know if we can even adjust your saddle far enough forward on a Fargo to optimally position your knees over the pedal axles."

There was more, and of course he suggested a custom built Serotta, as well as a Trek and Cannondale model. But it looks to me from reading this that I would be foolish to spend $1,700 on the Fargo...sigh :( I really wanted that bike...

Perhaps there is another steel frame bike out there that will take both road and mountain bike tires that WILL fit me? Back to research :)

[Biciclista]

boy, you sound like you are about exactly my size. happy hunting!

[ginny]

ah, what a bummer. I'm sorry. Sometimes research just sucks! Though, it's much better to have an honest answer than a $1700 bike that doesn't fit (easy for me to say,right?)

[Catrin]

Yeah, everyone I talk to about fitting always gets around to the custom build idea. Their point is valid, non-custom bikes are build to fit the normal curve, so I will always have to compromise given my proportions - unless I go custom. And that is expensive... so lots of research is needed :)

[Tri Girl]

wow- so I'm guessing that the Fargo won't fit me, either from what he said... :( boo! I know you're disappointed. That bike is so great. Why can't they just make it one size smaller??? :rolleyes:

[Ritamarie]

Perhaps there is another steel frame bike out there that will take both road and mountain bike tires that WILL fit me? Back to research :)

Catrin, Have you looked at Surlys?

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/

Edited to add, right now I have big fat studded winter tires on my Cross Check and have road tires for it as well. I have the Gloss Black with ummm... just a few pink accents. :-)

[KnottedYet]

42cm Surly Long Haul Truckers have some big fans among the petite women.

$1,095. ($600 less than the Fargo) Bar end shifters, sturdy, mtb tires or smooth, can be fully loaded front and back with racks and panniers.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=17451&highlight=surly+review for a review of two TEers playing around with a 42 cm LHT.

ETA: comparing the requirements your fitter gave you and the geometry of the LHT, you could ride either the 42 or the 46. Don't be put off by the seat tube angle, because the touring geometry is going to set your saddle to peddle relationship differently it's almost irrelevant, you'll know how it works for your KOPS when you ride each.

[OakLeaf]

I'm not seeing anything in the proportions that you mentioned, anyway that are outside any so-called "normal curve." Unless they were talking about the middle of the bell curve for males.

You sound pretty much like my size, too. I don't have a heavy tourer (yet) either, but I had zero trouble fitting on any of several WSD road bikes.

I'm sorry you're not getting the bike you wanted :(, but I'm really happy you decided to find out whether it was going to fit you before ordering one!

[Aquila]

Sad news, indeed. But I'm really impressed with the LBS person who wrote you. S/he did a great service to you in taking the time to explain the issues.

I'm sorry your dream bike isn't likely to fit, though.

[Sylvia]

Try sending Terry bikes an email. Georgena is pretty good about getting back to people. I know she did with me when I was looking for a bike. :)

[Catrin]

42cm Surly Long Haul Truckers have some big fans among the petite women.

$1,095. ($600 less than the Fargo) Bar end shifters, sturdy, mtb tires or smooth, can be fully loaded front and back with racks and panniers.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=17451&highlight=surly+review for a review of two TEers playing around with a 42 cm LHT.

ETA: comparing the requirements your fitter gave you and the geometry of the LHT, you could ride either the 42 or the 46. Don't be put off by the seat tube angle, because the touring geometry is going to set your saddle to peddle relationship differently it's almost irrelevant, you'll know how it works for your KOPS when you ride each.

He didn't think the Surly Long Haul Trucker would work for me either...though he didn't say exactly why other than it was based on the geometry chart. I need to ask about that. More for me to check out :)

The fitter did suggest the Trek 520Touring bike, one of the Cannondale Touring bikes. I know he said the Long Haul Trucker wouldn't work for me, but I won't rule out until I find out why :) I have looked at the Surly Cross before - how does it do for long rides?

What does KOPS mean?

[BikeShopGirl]

Oh no, that is very sad news. Good luck in your bike hunt and if anything comes to my mind I'll be sure to let you know.

[KnottedYet]

He didn't think the Surly Long Haul Trucker would work for me either...though he didn't say exactly why other than it was based on the geometry chart. I need to ask about that. More for me to check out :)

The fitter did suggest the Trek 520Touring bike, one of the Cannondale Touring bikes. I know he said the Long Haul Trucker wouldn't work for me, but I won't rule out until I find out why :) I have looked at the Surly Cross before - how does it do for long rides?

What does KOPS mean?

Perhaps he was looking at a different chart for a different bike?

The LHT in size 42cm has a 49.26cm top tube (he says you need a 50cm)
and a 70.3 cm stand over (your inseam is 78cm)

The LHT in size 46cm has a 50.83 cm top tube, and a 72.38 stand over.

I find it fascinating that he dismissed the fairly independent Surly product out of hand (even though it has the wheels/tires of the Fargo which you like so much) yet recommends bikes of the same purpose and geometry from the larger corporations (and without the wheels/tires you said you like).

The Cross Check is excellent for long rides, though it cannot be loaded as heavily as the LHT and it is a bit more responsive (aka "squirrelly") than the LHT. Also, because of the higher bottom bracket of cyclocross geometry, the 42cm CC fits more like a 46cm LHT.

KOPS is "knee over pedal spindle". This is obliquely what he was referring to when he discussed seat tube angles with you. When your pedals are horizontal (9 o'clock and 3 o'clock) and the balls of your feet are centered on the pedal, a plumb bob dropped off the leading edge of your knee should line up at or slightly behind the pedal spindle. In other words (just like when you squat properly) your knee should not be hanging out in front of your toes. KOPS is dependent on such a HUGE variety of factors that it is pretty silly to dismiss a bike simply over seat tube angle.

You won't know if a bike is "right" for you until you've ridden it. Seriously, sizing and geometry charts only give you a guideline, you really need to ride all the different bikes. If you are interested in Surly, find an independent shop who carries them and take some test rides! More rides, more better! Lots of bike love!

ETA: here's the LHT info: http://surlybikes.com/bikes/long_haul_trucker_complete/ click the "geometry" tab and look at the chart for the 26 inch wheel bikes.

ETA #2: my CC is also gloss black, but with red accents. Mmmmm, tasty...

ETA #3: there are enough of us on TE who are trained fitters that you will be able to get lots of good info, so don't be shy about asking questions, ANY questions!

[HillSlugger]

I don't know about all the ramifications of his conclusions in real life, but don't be afraid of a stem under 80mm. I had a 65/30 degree on my race bike and I have no problems with handling.

[KnottedYet]

I don't know about all the ramifications of his conclusions in real life, but don't be afraid of a stem under 80mm. I had a 65/30 degree on my race bike and I have no problems with handling.

I've got two bikes with stems in the nefarious 8 cm neighborhood. No problems here, either.
To each his own, I guess.

Really, riding the bikes tells you more than anything else ever would. Ride every bike that interests or intrigues you, no matter how far-fetched! Keep notes as you go, and you will discover that you learn quite a lot about your own preferences over a fairly short period of time.

Have fun!

[MartianDestiny]

I'll add to this. My road bike has a 60mm stem on it. It's certainly quick handling, but that's just as much because of the steep head tube angle and race-y geometry as stem length.

The only time I crashed it was because I UNDER-steered in a corner...

Sounds like the Salsa has other problems for you though :(

Edited to add:
The fitter that sold me that road bike (unridden) and told me he could fit it without adversely affecting ride quality with a 60mm stem is a Senior Instructor for Serotta Cycling Institute (he probably taught that guy you talked to everything he knows...). He was right; I LOVE my bike. (though he probably would have had a different answer/opinion had I been looking at a bike with more relaxed geometry, etc.)

[Catrin]

Thanks to all of your good advice! KnottedYet - you are right, the specs for the Long Haul Trucker does seem to be well within his criteria - perhaps he was looking at the wrong chart. I do want to give her a shot, I just have to find a dealer in the region who has one.

My LBS can get bikes that they aren't dealers for (outside of Specialized - for some reason they won't deal with them) - but there are no returns for those bikes.

I like the detailed info he gave me on why the Fargo won't fit - I did have to laugh when I realized the only two suggestions he had as alternatives were to bikes they carry.

I am sure that I will have more questions - thanks to everyone!

[Ritamarie]

I have looked at the Surly Cross before - how does it do for long rides?

Catrin,

I've done a 100 mile ride on my Cross Check. I chose it over my road bike for that ride because there were some portions of the ride on the rail trail. It was great. I was lucky that there was a Surly dealer an hour from me and I was able to try one. Instant bike love.

My Cross Check is like the bike equivalent of an old pair of shoes. It's solid, it's stable, it doesn't get blown about by the wind. I feel safe on it. I had it built up special since I wanted flat bars and a triple on this bike. I would highly recommend the triple for what you are doing. I initially bought this as an all-rounder, a relatively inexpensive bike that I wouldn't mind getting dirty; that I could ride on the rail trail, commute on, put fat winter tires on, do a little touring. I'm even thinking of getting some fat knobbies for it and using it as a mountain bike! If I was to do it over, I would sink another few hundred dollars into it and choose better/lighter components, just because I'm spending more time on it than I thought I would! It weighs in at about 25 lbs now without bottle cages etc. (I think the Fargo you were looking at weighs in at about 27 lbs stripped.)

I am just a centimeter or two longer than you in the inseam and I have a 50cm Cross Check frame.

Meet "Ethel".... (Yeah she's a bit muddy in the pic, but that's her job!)

10809

[Catrin]

Catrin,

I've done a 100 mile ride on my Cross Check. I chose it over my road bike for that ride because there were some portions of the ride on the rail trail. It was great. I was lucky that there was a Surly dealer an hour from me and I was able to try one. Instant bike love.

My Cross Check is like the bike equivalent of an old pair of shoes. It's solid, it's stable, it doesn't get blown about by the wind. I feel safe on it. I had it built up special since I wanted flat bars and a triple on this bike. I would highly recommend the triple for what you are doing. I initially bought this as an all-rounder, a relatively inexpensive bike that I wouldn't mind getting dirty; that I could ride on the rail trail, commute on, put fat winter tires on, do a little touring. I'm even thinking of getting some fat knobbies for it and using it as a mountain bike! If I was to do it over, I would sink another few hundred dollars into it and choose better/lighter components, just because I'm spending more time on it than I thought I would! It weighs in at about 25 lbs now without bottle cages etc. (I think the Fargo you were looking at weighs in at about 27 lbs stripped.)

I am just a centimeter or two longer than you in the inseam and I have a 50cm Cross Check frame.

Meet "Ethel".... (Yeah she's a bit muddy in the pic, but that's her job!)



Wow, she is pretty - and so is the LHT! I checked out the specs for the LHT and I have to wonder what the fitter was actually looking at. I've sent him an email to see if there was something else about the geometry. From what the specs say it looks like the LFT will certainly fit me.

The Cross Check stem angle is very different from the LHT. The LHT has a stem angle of 75, which my Trek 7.6 has and it is perfect. What impact would the stem angle of 84 have?

I just heard from my fitter, and he admitted that he was looking at the chart wrong for the LHT and said it looked like a perfect match for me. My LBS even has a 42cm Surly steel frame on display right now that I can look at :)

[Blueberry]

Slightly OT - Does anyone know of Surly has changed the geometry on their Cross Checks in the last 8 years? I bought a used one, and I cannot get my knee in the right place (we've tried). However, it doesn't seem to match anything on the current geometry page.

FWIW I've done 85 miles on it. It does well for long rides. I also have a Trek 520 that I love!

[andtckrtoo]

Another CrossCheck lover here - although the LHT sounds like it would be a better bet for you. My only beef with my Surly is the handlebars which are simply unsuited for me and not bad over all. I'm going to have my LBS switch out the bars for me and finally wrap them in pink (I have the tape - just haven't put it on yet). I've ridden mine many long distances and I love it for commuting and light touring. I have a compact double on mine and a triple on my Cannondale. I like the triple because of the smaller gear changes, but my Surly has greater ranges (I had them add cogs) so I actually find the compact double better for steeper climbs. I really don't notice that much of a difference in weight between my aluminum Cannondale and my steel Surly, except when the Surly is fully loaded for my commute, of course, and even then it's totally maneuverable. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE my Surly.

Here's mine on my commute home on day when I decided to take the long way.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1308/4836116/16406488/373222347.jpg

[KnottedYet]

My only beef with my Surly is the handlebars which are simply unsuited for me and not bad over all.

Oh, yeah, I switched out the bars on my Surly CC pretty darn quick! My shoulders are not as wide as a man's who rides the same bike size! Actually, I switched them out again to a pair of narrow moustache bars. They are perfect for me for commuting. If/when I change my Kona Smoke into an xtracycle hauling goddess, I will give her the same moustache bars.

Even with the bars set too low and too wide, I knew it was true love when I test rode the Surly CC. The second test ride a week later (I made myself wait) was a damm fabulous second date. After that, we simply had to be together.

[Catrin]

I stopped by my LBS today to check out the 42-inch Surly Pacer frame they have on display. Of course that is for a different bike, but it allowed me to see one of the Surly steel frame designs.

The fitter apologized to me, all he could say in his defense was that he just plain looked at something wrong. He did say that the LHT was the best fit for me, by far, out of the others he originally suggested. Then we had a good discussion that proceeded from there. My LBS does not stock Surly, but they can easily get one for me.

There is a local Surly dealer (same store that has Salsa), but I am not comfortable doing business with them. They will not guarantee a fit at all, if it is ordered, then I am obligated whether it fits or not. That is for the brands for which they are an official dealer...nor do they have fitting services. That seems odd to me, not for a very large store that has been around for more than 30 years.

The LHT has everything I want :p Of course it doesn't take 29ers, but it does take the tires that I want - I won't be confined to only dry pavement and I am a woman who likes options :D The price rocks as well - unless I start upgrading components :cool:

[MartianDestiny]

It's actually very standard for stores to lock you into a special order bike purchase.

It's a lot of money out of their pocket for something they aren't going to make much on, will likely be hard for them to get rid of, and that they can't really discount much to get rid of either (margin on bikes is small plus many manufacturers have a minimum selling price).

If you can find one that won't lock you into it then count your blessings, but that's not something I'd expect.

[Catrin]

It's actually very standard for stores to lock you into a special order bike purchase.

It's a lot of money out of their pocket for something they aren't going to make much on, will likely be hard for them to get rid of, and that they can't really discount much to get rid of either (margin on bikes is small plus many manufacturers have a minimum selling price).

If you can find one that won't lock you into it then count your blessings, but that's not something I'd expect.

I understand that, and would have understood it more if it was not a bike that particular LBS did not keep in stock. They do carry the Fargo on the floor, they just didn't happen to have the small size in stock the other day when I dropped by. I do understand the Fargo is considered a speciality bike though, and that didn't bother me as much as the lack of fitting services. In these days that did seem a little odd - but perhaps I am just spoiled. Obviously they must be doing a lot of things right to have been in business this long :D

My usual LBS, on the other hand, if it is a bike/brand they normally carry, will order something in a different size at no obligation to allow you to try it on for fit. My Trek 7.6 is an example, they normally do not carry it because it is a little high up the price food chain - but even though they special ordered it for me - there was no obligation until I had the chance to try it on for size.

The Surly LHT, however, is a different situation. They do not normally stock Surly bikes, but have no problem getting them - and of course - I will be obligated when I make that order in late spring. I expect and understand that.

[Bike Chick]

Catrin,

We must be the same size. You are exactly where I was about 9 months ago. I had my eye on a Salsa Casseroll but when I went to order it at the LBS found out that it was too big AND my current road bike that I had been riding for 5 years was also too big. Thus the beginning of my search and the reason I have a custom Luna being painted right now to replace my road bike. I am still looking for a commuter/trail bike and without going custom on it as well, I only found two in my price range that were small enough and only one that was steel.

Check out Gary Fisher cyclecross bikes (they are all steel with an ETT of 50.9) and the Specialized cyclecross bikes (they have a 50 TT).

PM me and I can share further. I feel your pain!

[iamsquib]

Hi Catlin I read your post and what you described well I would think about it for a second. Fitting a bike like the Fargo is a different matter altogether than fitting a road bike. The Fargo is like the bike version on an old Toyota land cruiser. And there are some very big differences in the way one sets up a drop bar 29er vs a road bike (google it to see pictures). For one a drop bar 29er's are not designed to ridden on the hoods but in the drops giving you better control in the dirt. So the bar sits up MUCH higher than on a road bike (in relation to the saddle and top tube) Which brings them closer to the rider. On any touring bike and especially one designed with off road as its primary purpose you don't want to be as far forward on it as you would a road bike. The riding position is almost up right the reason it pretty simple riding a long way and on rough roads will kill your lower back, shoulders and wrists in a race tuck position. Secondly the head angle is 70 degrees on the Fargo which is wicked shallow most road bikes its the the range of 72-74 ( and mountain bikes its 72-71) which means the bars are closer to the rider the shallower the angle. Also a 120mm stem for smaller riders is well I'm not sure what to call it but retarded comes to mind. Long stems like that are are rarely used on bikes out side of those belonging to huge men where the largest frame is still to small. OR for people who bought a frame that was too small to begin with.
As for the seat post the 73 degree angle really isn't that big of a deal, your talking a few millimeters difference depending on how long the seat tube and seat post are and for small riders it isn't that much. Like wise it can be over come with a zero off set seat post like a Thomson Elite and I would strongly recommend a Brooks saddle for any touring bike which are not only super comfortable they have really long seat rails and will more than likely out last the frame I've been riding the same saddle for almost 15 years. I have ridden the Fargo and the bike has a very long wheel base which makes it stable but slow to turn Fargo comes with a 90mm stem stock so a 80mm stem isn't going to tighten up the steering that much you'd notice and might even be better if you hit single track.
As for stand over height well 1 cm is not a huge difference a good touring shoe (one you can walk in will make up that difference.) Because you want a shoe you can walk in with out trashing the cleats on a tour trust me you'll end up walking a lot on tour.
SO I guess my point is Bike Shop employees make commission and will always try to up sell you from an $1800 bike to the $4000 dollar custom job because it fattens their pay check. And the fitting guy was fitting you for a road bike not a off road 29er touring bike or even a touring bike. Most shops don't really have any idea about touring because the focus in the industry for the last 20 years has been all about performance. Touring isn't about going fast its about going a very long way comfortably. So touring is a small niche thing and the shops that focus on it tend to be run by old grumpy men with white beards who drink a lot.
As for a new bike even a custom one is going to take a bit of adjusting to make it feel right.
Just saying as a guy who turn wrenches for a living and hates it when I hear people get bad advice on a bike fit. Or told no to something they want. I mean if the Fargo is the horse that sings to you don't be swayed by some 12 an hour bike shop snob. Go find a shop run by an old guy with a white beard and sorta smells like axle grease and Jack Daniels he'll have it in stock and go ride it and see how it FEELS because all the fancy measuring won't tell you how a bike feels and you'll be able to tell right away if its going to work for you or not. So there is no need for sad days. Hope my 2 cents will help you out.

[Biciclista]

um, iamsquib, welcome to TE. The post to which you are responding is a year old!

[jessmarimba]

...and the bike he's referring to barely fits me at 5'7". I understand there are ways to tweak bikes to make them fit, but there are definitely limits! But they changed the geometry, maybe the new Fargo might work now for you Catrin?

[Catrin]

...and the bike he's referring to barely fits me at 5'7". I understand there are ways to tweak bikes to make them fit, but there are definitely limits! But they changed the geometry, maybe the new Fargo might work now for you Catrin?

No, they are just too large - I need a quite short TTT and plenty of standover room - and I no longer want a Fargo anyway :) I am in love with my LHT. My touring bike needs are taken care of :)

My current LBS staff knows touring bikes, mountain bikes, and 29rs quite well as they specialize in them- but it didn't take them to tell me that it was too large once I found one to try out!