Recess Temperatures

[uforgot]

Our school recently informed the elementary teachers that students are not allowed outside for recess when it is below 40 degrees. I'm trying to find some info or statistics as to safe temperatures, or even recommendations as to specific temps and windchills. As a high school teacher who teaches these elementary kids in the summer, I'm trying to imagine a day with them cooped up inside like this. No wonder my friends in the elementary school are complaining. These kids need to run, even if only for 10 minutes!

I have found policies from different schools. One school in Texas has a cutoff of 55, and then some in the north, such as in Minnesota lets them out at 0.

Our superintendent likes cold hard facts, statistics and charts, and instead of grumbling to each other, I think the teachers just need to present their case to the Super. (Don't get me wrong, I think this guy is the best thing to happen to us, and I know he would listen). Seems every school has it's own policy, but if I could get some statistics from national studies, doctors, etc., I'd appreciate it! I'm not having any luck.

[Crankin]

40 degrees???:eek:. When I worked in an elementary school, the cut off for outdoor recess was 25 degrees. Since this was in the late '90s, I don't think kid's ability to withstand cold weather has changed. What is wrong with these people? Another example of the way some just try to overprotect every aspect of a child's life.
There's nothing better than seeing a bunch of fifth graders come inside with rosy cheeks, take off their coats, and settle in for some learning.
I guess these powers that be don't go out and x country ski when it's -7 degrees out.

[uforgot]

I honestly think it's coming from parents. Their little darling doesn't want to go outside so the parent complains, and unfortunately, it's a small town so the Superintendent and board members get the calls. I also think that people honestly think that you get sick from going outside when it's cool or raining. My mother in law thought that. Wish I had a nickel for every time I told her that you get a cold from a virus, not from the temperature or the rain. (We played in the rain much to her horror). Oh, yeah, it's better to crowd the kids and germs in a small space all day. That will keep them healthy!

I realize I'm preaching to the choir. But I feel so much better!

[shootingstar]

I honestly think it's coming from parents. Their little darling doesn't want to go outside so the parent complains, and unfortunately, it's a small town so the Superintendent and board members get the calls. I also think that people honestly think that you get sick from going outside when it's cool or raining. My mother in law thought that. Wish I had a nickel for every time I told her that you get a cold from a virus, not from the temperature or the rain. (We played in the rain much to her horror). Oh, yeah, it's better to crowd the kids and germs in a small space all day. That will keep them healthy!

I realize I'm preaching to the choir. But I feel so much better!

Just a comment:

It rains alot here on the Northwest Pacific coast, yet I'm always amazed to see kids ages 8 and up, playing soccer in steady rain. They are wearing uniforms so it is a real game with parents hanging about on the sidelines. Temperatures would be around 40 and below (or above).

However I don't recall having great fun out on the playground when it rained. But great fun playing in snow at very cold temp. at school playground. Oh yes, we also had an outdoor ice rink on the school playground. :D Yep, I went to one of those schools.
Parents need to be reminded of children in the snowier parts of North America.

[Melalvai]

According to this chart (http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lsx/vortex/newwindchill.php), frostbite isn't a concern until it is 10 degrees, and then only if the wind is 55 mph.
wikihow (http://www.wikihow.com/Know-the-Temperature-Is-Safe-to-Play-Outside) recommends keeping children in if the temperature drops to -13F!

Good luck getting them out of doors!

Maybe some kids, especially these days, don't really know what to do when they get outside. Perhaps you could organize some games & fun races?

[Grog]

It's all relative.

Being from Quebec, I spent my childhood recess times outdoors at temperatures down to -15 or -20 Celcius (sub-zero F). However, we were all little Quebecers with lots of appropriate winter gear such as boots, coats, snow pants, mittens, etc. (It probably took about 10 minutes to get us dressed for recess.) Here in Vancouver I wouldn't send the kids out if the temperatures were below 0 Celcius (32F) since most people don't have appropriate winter clothing, and would indeed endanger themselves. I'm not that old (32) but maybe the rules have changed. I sort of doubt it.

If you're in Missouri, I'd sort of expect people to have what it takes to survive the around freezing point.

[Veronica]

Our kids go out if it's not raining. They run around and play in temperatures in the mid 40s to low 50s with no coats on, in short sleeves! They don't care; they're having fun. This is CA so a lot of them don't even have winter coats.

Sometimes I think having a child must turn off the logical part of the brain. ;)

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

According to this chart (http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lsx/vortex/newwindchill.php), frostbite isn't a concern until it is 10 degrees, and then only if the wind is 55 mph.

Weeeeeellll, according to my ears, they've been frostbitten at 20° above with not too much wind. It's true it was considerably colder than that when my fingers and toes got frostbite, and ears aren't really that big of a concern.

But I agree that kids should be outside.

[Biciclista]

can any of you remember being out for recess and being HURT by 40 degree weather?
I can remember when it was freezing and playing with the ice in the puddles. That's a very sad commentary; what are we raising, hot house flowers? My mother made us go out no matter what the weather (thunderstorms excluded) and we went out and played. We got wet sometimes too, and we survived. I hope you can just talk plain old common sense to that principal. Humans survived millions of years without forced air heat and fleece lined gloves!!!

[jobob]

I can remember when it was freezing and playing with the ice in the puddles.

... aaaannnd we liked it !! ;) :D

[jobob]

When I was a kid in western MA, elementary school was fairly close to home, but both jr high and high school were about a mile away -- I lived a few blocks shy of the school bus-eligible boundary in both instances.

I remember in particular walking with a neighbor to high school during the winter over snow so cold it squeaked, and be chanting in our newly-learned Spanish "¡Muy frio! ¡Es muy frio!" :D

Oh, and in elementary school, we had one of those tongue-frozen-on-cold-metal incidents during recess. I kid you not. :rolleyes:

[Irulan]

Oh good Lord. Let's bubble wrap kids some more.

[zoom-zoom]

10ºF is the limit that my son's school has in place, which seems reasonable to me. I think when I was growing up the limit was 0.

Seriously, I am starting to think people south of the Mason-Dixon are kinda wussy. I have friends in TX and Alabama and they whine when it gets below 50 that it is too cold to go outside (most runners will agree that 50 is ideal for running). Then all Summer long they whine that it's too hot. These are people who use treadmills more than 6 months of the year and think I'm nuts when I go running in below-freezing or even sub-zero temps with ample snow on the ground. I think they are nuts for being willing to run or bike indoors when the roads are dry and temps are not dangerous in either extreme.

[uforgot]

When I was a kid in western MA, elementary school was fairly close to home, but both jr high and high school were about a mile away -- I lived a few blocks shy of the school bus-eligible boundary in both instances.

I remember in particular walking with a neighbor to high school during the winter over snow so cold it squeaked, and be chanting in our newly-learned Spanish "¡Muy frio! ¡Es muy frio!" :D

Oh, and in elementary school, we had one of those tongue-frozen-on-cold-metal incidents during recess. I kid you not. :rolleyes:

When I ride my bike to school I see lots of parents, sitting with their kids in the car at the end of the DRIVEWAY! The weather doesn't matter, they are always there.

Oh, and did you catch the Mythbusters and the frozen metal/ tongue episode? It's true...

[lph]

I agree with Grog, and think you have to take into consideration what the normal temperature range is around there. Here in Oslo everyone is used to temps down to -10 to -15 C, but -15 to -20 is quite rare. It happens, but not every winter, and not for long. Last week we had a cold snap, and when it was colder than -15 C the kids were allowed to stay indoors for recess. I think it was a combination of a bit too much hassle to get dressed, and that some of them maybe didn't have warm enough clothes. Not everybody around here is born and raised in a cold climate.

[TsPoet]

Is ice/slick playground the issue? According to my car (which is my authority), the roads might be slick when it gets <37 degrees F. My car has never been right, though.
but, that was my first thought for the regulation, slip and fall problems?

[MartianDestiny]

Seriously, I am starting to think people south of the Mason-Dixon are kinda wussy.

Not really. It's what you are used to and what you are prepared for; especially when it comes to cold (hot you can't really do much about). I lived in Ga most of my life, and indeed WAS miserable at ~40.

I now live in CO, and while I still prefer 75 and sunny, am happy down to the upper 20's. Why? I think some of it may be the different humidity and wind levels, so it does feel slightly different. But primarily? I'm prepared for it. I've spent a small fortune on GOOD cold weather gear that you can't even really FIND much less purchase or justify in Ga. That makes a WORLD of difference.

[SadieKate]

uforgot, Is 40F unusually cold for your area? Do you have many children who don't own the appropriate clothing due to poverty? And what about windchill taking it sub-freezing?

40F to a Floridian is pretty miserable and s/he probably doesn't have the clothes to deal with the temperature.

40F for a Minnesotan in winter is a heat wave and time for short sleeves.

[sfa]

I agree that these things tend to be relative, and a lot should depend on whether or not the kids have the clothing appropriate for the weather (not necessarily a poverty issue as someone suggested--it could well be that it doesn't make sense for *anyone* to buy snow boots or warm parkas if the normal winter includes no snow and temps in the 50's).

But 40 degrees still seems pretty warm (says me, living south of the Mason Dixon line!) to keep kids indoors during recess. My daughter's school has a cutoff of 25 degrees, although if it's dry and not windy they'll often send the kids out in colder weather, and if it's wet or really windy, they might keep them indoors. Even if they have indoor recess, they still get the run of the gym so they can burn off some steam.

Sarah

[GLC1968]

I agree that these things tend to be relative, and a lot should depend on whether or not the kids have the clothing appropriate for the weather (not necessarily a poverty issue as someone suggested--it could well be that it doesn't make sense for *anyone* to buy snow boots or warm parkas if the normal winter includes no snow and temps in the 50's).


Ditto this.


As an aside - when I was in grade school in Wisconsin, school was canceled when temps dropped below -20F because it was too dangerous to be standing around at the bus stop. I think windchill was colder than -50F or something... now THAT's cold.

[Veronica]

Elementary school with a gym? Must be nice!

Speaking as a teacher, it's darn hard to be "on" all morning. If it's raining and I have no prep time (like today) I am "on" with no break from 8:15 - 12:30.

Yes, I want to get them out for their 15 minute recess so I can turn my brain off! Oh and a trip to the restroom would be welcome.

Veronica

[SadieKate]

sfa, when I googled this issue I found many references to kids not having the clothing due to poverty. Hence, all the Coats for Kids programs run in many communities.

Not having the clothing because it's a freaky weather spell is a different problem covered in an "act of nature" clause.

[PamNY]

Not really. It's what you are used to and what you are prepared for; especially when it comes to cold (hot you can't really do much about). I lived in Ga most of my life, and indeed WAS miserable at ~40.

I now live in CO, and while I still prefer 75 and sunny, am happy down to the upper 20's. Why? I think some of it may be the different humidity and wind levels, so it does feel slightly different. But primarily? I'm prepared for it. I've spent a small fortune on GOOD cold weather gear that you can't even really FIND much less purchase or justify in Ga. That makes a WORLD of difference.

I agree with this exactly. I lived in the South and 40 degrees in Georgia or Florida is miserable. I think part of it is humidity. Plus, it doesn't make sense to invest in good cold weather gear (or even good wool blankets) in those places. I'm in NYC now and well prepared to dress for anything. It doesn't get terribly cold here, but I like to be outdoors, so I'm ready.

As far as the kids and recess, I bike down to 20 degrees or so, and I do see some kids in the park playgrounds. But they are acclimated and they have the clothing for it. And they are having fun.

[Veronica]

Well the OP is in MO. I went to school in St Louis. It seems to me winters were pretty darn cold. She's not talking about some weird weather. I would imagine most winter days in MO were sub 40 degrees.

I can't imagine keeping the kids in EVERY day all winter long.

Veronica

[GLC1968]

Well the OP is in MO. I went to school in St Louis. It seems to me winters were pretty darn cold. She's not talking about some weird weather. I would imagine most winter days in MO were sub 40 degrees.


Yeah, I noticed that after I posted and I totally agree with you. That is ridiculous. I have family that lives just outside of St Louis and the winters there can be VERY cold (and summers VERY hot). 40 degrees as a cut off is really, really strange in that environment.

Plus, kids have wicked metabolisms. 40 degrees to them probably feels more like 60 degrees to the rest of us. Why do you think you have to remind most kids to put on coats all the time?

[GLC1968]

Elementary school with a gym? Must be nice!



WAIT?! Most elementary schools don't have gyms? All the ones I attended did (and I attended 5 in three different states)! Have things changed a lot since I was a kid?

(I don't have my own kids, so this is not something I'd pay attention to... I'm just curious)

[Irulan]

The kids might melt if they go out in the rain,too.

[Possegal]

My mother told me that when we were really little, she'd bundle us in our snowsuits, put us in our crib, and open all the windows to the cold winter air. That was her busy-mum-of-six way of making sure we got our fresh air. :)

[Veronica]

No gyms at any of the elemtary schools in my district. We do have a cafeteria and the kids spend their lunch recess in there on rainy days, playing board games. Maybe it's a CA thing. We had a gym at my elemtary school in Maine, but my school was the old town high school.

It's not the same as getting out and running around though.

Veronica

[shootingstar]

For the elementary school teachers,

Ever thought how immigrant children from warmer climates now living in colder climates adjust on the playground?

And there are tons of them in the major Canadian cities!! From southern Asia, the Carribbean etc. As long as the children are dressed warmly and playing/socializing with others, it's a good thing.

I witnessed first-hand the delight of my cousins' 2 sons, ages 9 & 7 at the time, of their first snowflurries, 3 months after they immigrated to Canada from southern China...which is tropical. It really was something to see. They wanted to be outdoors to play.

(And people complain that immigrants can't adjust, assimilate. Good heavens.)

[sundial]

At our school, the only time we didn't play outside:


when it was raining cats and dogs
when school was out

[Crankin]

Yep, we have the cars sitting at the end of the driveways, cul-de-sacs, and streets here. Can't leave those precious things alone for one second!!!
Seriously, this phenomena left my own children wickedly hysterical when we moved to a development on a cul de sac. The cars would be lined up, back to my house. On days it was raining (or G-d forbid, snowing), my kids would go out, appropriately dressed, with an umbrella, snow boots, whatever the weather called for. The mothers would invariably beckon them to wait in one of their cars. My kids always refused, except for the time the bus got stuck in the snow and they did take a ride (I had left for work). Now, we are talking about middle school and high school aged kids! I am sure I was branded as the evil mother of Boxborough. They even commented once to my son who was scraping the snow off of the roof of his car, preparing to go to school, when he was a junior or senior. Like how could I be so mean as to make him clean his car and drive himself to school?
Oy.

[shootingstar]

The mothers would invariably beckon them to wait in one of their cars. My kids always refused, except for the time the bus got stuck in the snow and they did take a ride (I had left for work). Now, we are talking about middle school and high school aged kids! I am sure I was branded as the evil mother of Boxborough. They even commented once to my son who was scraping the snow off of the roof of his car, preparing to go to school, when he was a junior or senior. Like how could I be so mean as to make him clean his car and drive himself to school?
Oy.

Well, uforgot is preaching to the choir. But hey, more stories..

I started shovelling snow off our home driveway when I was 11 yrs. onward. Of course I didn't do the whole thing and of course, mother tried to time it so that the snow depth wasn't too deep.

Which meant we went shovelling even twice during the whole day.
Forget about the snowblower...parents couldn't afford it. And didn't really exist big time for home owners in 1970's.

And what was the motivating factor for my mother to send her children out shovelling snow, with younger ones playing in snow, while she did housework (and probably we got out of her hair)? So my father, the sole breadwinner working in evenings until 1:00 am, at restaurant could drive into the driveway properly. We were conscious we were doing for our father, not really playing in snow. But there was no time deadline. We took breaks, etc.

No, we were not paid an allowance for this outdoor 'snow' work. No money.

I'm sorry....shadow of history looms.

[uforgot]

Wow, so much feedback! Yes, I'm by St. Louis and it does get pretty cold in the winter. The kids should ALL have coats and gloves, but the parents don't always come through. The PTA collects coats and our FCCLA always hands out brand new gloves to the elementary students that need them.

40 seems downright balmy here right now. Not sure what our average January temp is, but I'm guessing it's in the high 20s. We have snow and sometimes we have windchills below 0.

I haven't had a chance to read all replies, but I will when I have time and I really appreciate all who chimed in.

[OakLeaf]

My first husband served in the Air Force in Thailand. He was there for all of a year. He describes coming back to Ohio in August, 85°F and what we'd consider humid in the USA... and being freezing. So yeah, acclimation is important. But it happens in a matter of weeks. The question is how far the temperature is outside the local norms, and in the case of Missouri, it sounds like it isn't.

[eclectic]

This has been fun to read and got my curiosity up. I teach High school and they wear shorts if it is above 0F :rolleyes:

I contacted a cycling buddy who is an elementary school principal in this district to find out the "official" policy

His response was:

Our policy is that we stay inside when:

Air temp = negative 5 degrees (F)
or
Wind chill = negative 15 degrees (F)


There's an old Scandanavian saying that goes, "There's no such things as bad weather, just bad clothing."
The clothing available nowadays is quite good and if children are prepared, it's very easy to stay warm no matter the temp.

We do have programs for boots, hats, mitts, coats etc.

In all my teaching career, (26 years) school was only canceled 1x, and that was by the Governor, he canceled the entire state - wind chills were -70 to -80 F, a cup of hot coffee thrown into the air froze before hitting the ground.

So what did the kids do? They went to the mall.
It got that cold last year - We had school :D

But to err on safety sake parents can opt out and keep their kids at home. We have a major air force base in our district and some parents do keep their kids home if it drops to -20F. We natives just don't get why they would do that :p

[Zen]

Oh, and did you catch the Mythbusters and the frozen metal/ tongue episode? It's true...

I don't need Mythbusters to tell me what I learned in the fourth grade at Fort Richardson :o
ouch.

[VeloVT]

I grew up in Vermont. I was in elementary school in the 1980s. I don't recall being kept inside during the winter at all -- in fact I clearly remember playing in the snow at recess. Strange...

Also -- someone (Veronica?) mentioned 15 minute recess. Really? I'm pretty sure our recesses were at least 30 min, I would guess maybe even a little bit longer than that.

[Kathi]

When I taught in Cincinnati the cut off was 32 degrees and the playground had to be free of snow. The thought was many of the kids didn't have hats and gloves to stay warm in those temps so no one went outside. Of course, rainy days no matter what temps were indoors.

We drove by our neighborhood school last week, it was 30 degrees, snow on the playground, kids outside running around hatless, gloveless, a few without coats. I guess this is why Colorado is one of the healthiest (thinnest) states in the country.

[Tri Girl]

We coddle our children. BUT...funny thing: if they'd dress properly for the weather maybe their candy a**es wouldn't be cold outside (meaning mom and dad should dress them appropriately or make them wear warm clothes when it's cold outside).
I teach at a preK-8th grade parochial school. Our policy is we don't go outside if the temp with or without wind chill is below 32F.
Of course we just had a frigid couple of weeks and some kids came to school in shorts and sweatshirts (and it was near 0 for many mornings). These kids ALL come from money and can afford coats/gloves/hats, etc. Most of them have nicer coats than I do. They just don't want to wear it (unless they're skiing in Aspen and then by golly parents wouldn't think about complaining about the temperature).

IMO we're raising a bunch of pansies... and not just concerning the weather.:rolleyes:

Sorry- this didn't provide any helpful information. I apparently just vented at you instead. :p
40 seems ridiculous, tho.

[shootingstar]

I teach at a preK-8th grade parochial school. Our policy is we don't go outside if the temp with or without wind chill is below 32F.
Of course we just had a frigid couple of weeks and some kids came to school in shorts and sweatshirts (and it was near 0 for many mornings). These kids ALL come from money and can afford coats/gloves/hats, etc. Most of them have nicer coats than I do. They just don't want to wear it (unless they're skiing in Aspen and then by golly parents wouldn't think about complaining about the temperature).

IMO we're raising a bunch of pansies... and not just concerning the weather.:rolleyes:.

Interesting..I guess most of us did rebel at some point on amount of clothing. And it's relative. Maybe those kids should get warmed up playing soccer.

Don't any of us remembering wearing leotard under our dresses/skirts and winter boots in -20 C winters with snow drifts taller than our heads? With a winter coat, boots and running around the snowy playground.

I still joke with my partner that's why I can still wear just 1 cycling tight on 75% or more of Vancouver's winter days. My legs got toughened in childhood. But he wears 2 layers over his legs at near 0 to -5 C degrees, even when there is no wind chill.

[Tuckervill]

My son has really good cold weather gear, and he chooses not to wear it, no mater how cold it is. (He did wear the nice gloves when there was snow on the ground.) I don't think that makes him a pansy. It makes him tougher than me!

I remember seeing a frozen red-breasted robin on a snowdrift on my way to school once. Third grade. I was sad. I usually walked to school, but that day I went up the street and around the corner to ride the bus, because my friend thought it was too cold to walk. That was back in the day, in suburban Chicago, when girls weren't allowed to wear pants to school. So we put on stretch pants (remember the kind with the crease sewn up the front?) under our dresses and had to take them off when we got to school. And our classrooms had cloakrooms and we all bundled up in the cloakroom for recess and going home. We went out no matter what the temperature, so long as it wasn't raining. If there was snow on the playground all the better!

Karen

[zoom-zoom]

The ridiculous thing about keeping kids in when it's 40 is that most kids wouldn't even need a bulky Winter coat for those conditions. A fleecy jacket over a sweatshirt and undershirt would be more than enough for most kids. Heck, mine won't even wear gloves until it's under 35.

[lph]

Ah, kids are strange creatures sometimes. My son has all the clothing he needs for any temperature and any weather, and then some, but he'll still tell me about standing around in recess freezing his b*tt off "because it was raining" (not because he couldn't be bothered to put on a hat and a fleece jacket under his rain coat), or he'll come home from school in a soaking wet down jacket, that he wore running around playing football in -2C and sleet. He hates hates hates putting on snow pants, so he'll wear wool long johns underneath his jeans all winter indoors and outdoors instead. Go figure *shrug*. He's 12, he has to figure these things out for himself at some point. He has started asking me sometimes if I would suggest wearing this or that. Occasionally. I feel like shouting Hallelujah every time :D

And kids do still shovel driveways, shootingstar. No-one around here has a snow blower except the janitor, and we shoveled our (very short) driveway plus all our closest neighbours' last time we had a heavy snowfall. No way would he get paid for shoveling his own driveway, but I did tell him he could go and ask other neighbours if he could shovel theirs for money.

[Crankin]

The not wearing coats/appropriate cold weather gear seems to be a phenomenon that is fairly recent (last 10 years or so). I used to think that the parents were terrible by not sending their kids with coats, etc. when I taught at the middle school level, but then I realized they all ditched their coats somewhere after they left the house. Every day I go to my internship, I drive by a kid (younger teen) who is standing in his driveway waiting for the bus. Every day he is wearing shorts and a bulky sweatshirt. His legs are often bright red! It has to hurt, when it's 5 F out.
My kids never fought me on the coat issue; the younger one developed Raynaud's over the years and until he had his experimental surgery that cured it, he constantly was searching for good gloves. The other one just accepted the fact that you wear a coat in the winter. Maybe it came from living in AZ and when we got here, they felt cold!
I agree, we are raising a bunch of wusses and it's the parents fault.

[redrhodie]

The not wearing coats/appropriate cold weather gear seems to be a phenomenon that is fairly recent (last 10 years or so). I used to think that the parents were terrible by not sending their kids with coats, etc. when I taught at the middle school level, but then I realized they all ditched their coats somewhere after they left the house. Every day I go to my internship, I drive by a kid (younger teen) who is standing in his driveway waiting for the bus. Every day he is wearing shorts and a bulky sweatshirt. His legs are often bright red! It has to hurt, when it's 5 F out.


I wonder if this is a New England phenomenon? I always see kids around here waiting for the bus, in freezing cold and even snow, wearing just a hoody. It seems winter coats are very out of fashion.

[Becky]

I dunno if it's strictly a New England thing, but it's definitely not just a kid thing. My husband (in his mid 30s) still refuses to wear a coat most days! It was in the low teens here a couple of weeks ago, and it was all I could do to get him to wear a shell, let alone anything insulated ;)

[Tuckervill]

My kid doesn't go to school and has never waited for a school bus. He has Reynaud's, too. He only wears gloves if there is snow to play in, and if he will be outside for longer than it takes to get to the car. When we had temps in the single digits recently (very rare for Arkansas), he did wear gloves more often, because his Reynaud's kicked in quickly then.

My son goes out in all weather, as he wishes. For him, it's about the inconvenience of wearing a jacket, when it's 30 seconds to the car and he'll be warm five minutes after the car starts. it's about not carrying the jacket in the mall. It's just too much fuss to wear a jacket when he's going to take it off in 5 minutes.

In certain weather, I insist that he bring with him appropriate weather gear even if he doesn't wear it. Because one never knows when the car may break down or we slide into the ditch. I just don't need to worry about that AND him not being equipped to do the walking or standing around or working that might require. It's our compromise. When he was 6 he didn't see the point of shoes. We had the same compromise. :)

I don't think he's a wuss. I think having such a high temp as the guideline for recess is coddling. But kids at the bus stop wearing nothing but a hoody does not a wuss make. :D I think that's a kid making a choice. I think that's more about adults making blanket rules without considering all the factors. I think that's about a nagging mother who always said "wear a jacket!" instead of "have a good day!"

My 25 and 27 yo's had the same issue with jackets in elementary school, so I don't think it's a new thing.

Karen

[Crankin]

I don't think the kids are wusses for not wearing coats; that's just, well, not sure what that is. I think the parents are turning their kids into wusses by trying to protect them from everything known to mankind.
I don't know, I never would have thought about not wearing a coat in the freezing winter when I was a kid. It seems like this was non-issue. I was not a particularly acquiescent child, so I wonder what's changed.

[Veronica]

... so I wonder what's changed.

What I see is parents, even great parents, give their kids more voice. Even the great parents I have allow their kids to challenge their authority. I'm talking about ten and eleven year olds challenging their parents, not teens.

While I do think it's good to encourage your kid to have an opinion, there are some things, they just should not question - in my opnion.

Veronica

[Melalvai]

uforgot, after all this discussion, I'm really interested in hearing what your principal decides.

[OakLeaf]

I don't think the kids are wusses for not wearing coats; that's just, well, not sure what that is.

I think it's a contest of machismo more than anything (yes, girls too). "I can take the cold." I remember standing in line for a movie in 20°F and stripping off all my outer layers, down to a T-shirt and jeans, just to look tough.

[sfa]

While I do think it's good to encourage your kid to have an opinion, there are some things, they just should not question - in my opnion.


Absolutely true. But wearing a coat in the winter isn't one of those things they shouldn't question. In fact, I think this is a GOOD one to question because it's not likely to cause any real harm (I might insist if the temperature was so low that frostbite was likely) and is one of those great situations where the consequence of a dumb choice is built in. They will be cold and miserable. And if the kid chooses to remain cold and miserable for the sake of looking cool, that's fine. She's made a choice and shown that she has control over what she wears (and really, after age five or six you can't MAKE them wear something if they are intent on not wearing it) and that's a little bit of independence you want them to have.

[Veronica]

Right, but just because the kids make a poor choice to not wear a coat, the teachers should not have to have indoor recess. For most teachers recess is their break. We don't get to just walk out of the room and go to the bathroom. or get a drink or a snack. I can only imagine the chaos that would ensue if I just left my room right now to go to the bathroom. So instituting a rule that there will be indoor recess in MO whenever the temperature is below 40 degrees pretty much guarantees that those teachers will not get a break until March.

It's ludicrous. It's Missouri for goodness sake. It gets cold there all the time.

Veronica

[uforgot]

uforgot, after all this discussion, I'm really interested in hearing what your principal decides.

Well, it's not my principal. I'm in the High School, (I send them on their way after 50 minutes) but I have passed along the information and views to a teacher friend who is a 4th grade teacher, and told me about the policy and how upset all of the teachers were. I hope that they can pull together something and present it to their principal. I'll let you know what happens.

I'm a high school teacher, but I have had elementary students in summer school and I just want to say:

God Bless our Elementary teachers! I have no idea how they do it year after year...

[zoom-zoom]

Really...if 40 degrees is too dangerously cold for these kids to be outside (and it's not, otherwise there would be no Humans living and spending time outdoors in Canada or Alaska...or any other areas where we have actual Winter)...I predict a generation of kids who will only be adding to the obese and inactive population in this country. All these kids are being taught is that any degree of physical discomfort is to be avoided at all cost and that the outdoors is only acceptable in a 30 degree temperature range. That's far scarier than any unlikely potential for hypothermia. It's especially upsetting given the cuts in PE programs. When are these kids ever supposed to have any physical activity?

[Irulan]

And if the kid chooses to remain cold and miserable for the sake of looking cool, that's fine. .

haha. Drive by our high school in the winter sometime. Single digits, shorts, on boys.

[Owlie]

This discussion of whether or not a kid chooses to wear layers has me laughing. I was always the kid who wore her coat, hat, gloves and scarf--if anything, I was often overdressed. I still love my layers! My sister, on the other hand, would often go to the bus stop (before I started driving her to school) with no coat, or buy coats that are really not suited for the weather. During her high school career, her winter coat of choice was a lighter (but fashionable) wool-blend thing. Mine was a Lands' End Squall jacket.

My elementary school (in Cincinnati) had a "must be above freezing and no snow" rule. I thought it was silly. I still think it's silly.

[Tri Girl]

oh I had to wear my coat when I left the house to catch the bus in middle school, but always stashed my coat in my locker when I got to school. I hated wearing a coat because it was *uncool* (which I still don't understand). :rolleyes:

I just meant that we coddle our children so much these days that they don't get to *experience* things like they should (like being uncomfortable, failure, heartbreak, etc). You know: the "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up" and the "we're all the best so everyone gets to be on the honor roll" kind of stuff. Experiencing failure is a good thing, so is being uncomfortable and let down. I teach some kids that I fear will have a major meltdown in college when they realize that they aren't the only special ones in the world and that sometimes you try hard and still come up short and fail because they have never had that experience. Ya know?

And yes, V, I agree with everything you said. I think you see it differently when you teach. Choice is good, but sometimes what you say goes because you're the parent and that's the way it is.

[SadieKate]

haha. Drive by our high school in the winter sometime. Single digits, shorts, on boys.You would think they'd understand shrinkage by this time.

[zoom-zoom]

You would think they'd understand shrinkage by this time.

Perhaps this is a way to avoid embarrassing "tenting" at school. :p

[Kathi]

This discussion of whether or not a kid chooses to wear layers has me laughing. I was always the kid who wore her coat, hat, gloves and scarf--if anything, I was often overdressed. I still love my layers! My sister, on the other hand, would often go to the bus stop (before I started driving her to school) with no coat, or buy coats that are really not suited for the weather. During her high school career, her winter coat of choice was a lighter (but fashionable) wool-blend thing. Mine was a Lands' End Squall jacket.

My elementary school (in Cincinnati) had a "must be above freezing and no snow" rule. I thought it was silly. I still think it's silly.

Did you go to a Cincinnati Public School? I grew up in western Hamilton county (Cincinnati area) in the 50's. Regardless of the weather we walked to the main highway to catch our school bus. No matter how miserable the weather Mom did not drive us to the bus stop and I remember being really cold, hot waiting for those school buses. The only days we were inside at school was when there was snow on the ground or it was raining. I remember snuggling up to a corner of the school building for warmth on chilly, windy days. In the winter, we bundled up in layers, wool and cotton and went out to play every day after school. On snowy days we got our hats, socks and gloves wet, went in and dried them out and went out and played in the snow some more.

As an adult I ski 3-4 days a week and I especially love the snowy days when other skiers are bailing because it's too "snowy". I do dress in my "high tech" layers to stay warm on lift chairs but rarely get cold or need to go in for a warm up.

When I was teaching I thought the temp rule was silly because the kids weren't dressed by our adult standards. Many of these kids were latchkey kids who had no opportunity to go outside once they got home. They needed physical exercise every day. The excuse of no hats and gloves was lame too. Our lost and found boxes were full of hats, gloves, jackets and coats that no parent or child bothered to claim. At the end of the school year they were washed and donated to charity.

I agree that we are coddling our children too much and are encouraging the rise of obesity in our youth.

The weather in Missouri isn't all that different than Southwestern Ohio. The kids need to be outside every opportunity they can get, even if it's only for a few minutes.

[OakLeaf]

"everyone gets a trophy for just showing up"

Well that sounds an awful lot like "finishers' medals." :cool:

[Crankin]

V, this is kind of related to your relating the bathroom issues for teachers. Although I finally started just leaving my kids for a couple of minutes to pee (easier in middle school and I always told the teacher next door), I recently had to do an all day urine collection test in preparation as part of preparatory lab work to get Reclast. I didn't want to give up a Sunday of riding or skiing, hiking, etc., so I did it on Thanksgiving day while I cooked, went for a short ride, and ate my dinner.
The endocrinologist called me personally, because she didn't believe that the sample I turned in was "right." She questioned if I had understood the directions to go in the collection bottle for 24 hours. I replied, that yes, I understood, but that after 30 years as a teacher and training myself not to have to pee too often, it's hard to change!
She believed me right away, after that and told me to double my water intake.

[tc1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/world/asia/15delhi.html?scp=4&sq=india%20cold&st=cse

[shootingstar]

I just meant that we coddle our children so much these days that they don't get to *experience* things like they should (like being uncomfortable, failure, heartbreak, etc). You know: the "everyone gets a trophy for just showing up" and the "we're all the best so everyone gets to be on the honor roll" kind of stuff. Experiencing failure is a good thing, so is being uncomfortable and let down. I teach some kids that I fear will have a major meltdown in college when they realize that they aren't the only special ones in the world and that sometimes you try hard and still come up short and fail because they have never had that experience. Ya know?

And yes, V, I agree with everything you said. I think you see it differently when you teach. Choice is good, but sometimes what you say goes because you're the parent and that's the way it is.

+1. There are safe ways for children to experience things like slight discomfort when it's rainy, snowy, etc. in ways that the child is supported by adults in the background with proper clothing and gradual acclimatization.

As an older child and teen, I never thought my parents were being overly hard on me for shovelling snow..or chopping the ice that clogged up a driveway. (a worser, ickier job) it was just another boring task to do, made only easier if the snow was gently and magically falling at night without a wind. And the thing was if the parent makes a super big deal about something uncomfortable/unjust on behalf for the child (when really sometimes a situation wasn't unjust/uncomfortable for child), then the child might just acquiesce and go along with the parent, not knowing any better or take the easier way out.

I meant shovelling the snow several times per wk. each winter. It wasn't occasional.

Thx, for the New Delhi article, tc1. It is what one's body is used to.
In Canada and the U.S. , there are lots of opportunities to become gradually acclimatized to cold weather. Which is the value of having autumn weather.

Though I wore my coat, etc. because I really wanted to, in my rebellious years I used to wear open toed walking sandals to near freezing temperaures in my 20's. I absolutely cannot do that any more!

[Jolt]

Holy crap. Kids are definitely being turned into a bunch of wimps. I was in elementary school in the early '90s and never remember being kept inside due to cold temperatures (grades K-2 in Virginia, 3-5 in Massachusetts). At my school in Westwood, MA we also were outside in the mornings after arriving on the bus, until the actual start of school. The only times I recall being inside (in the cafeteria) is if it was raining, not if it was cold out. We just made sure to have warm clothing and snow boots when needed, and had fun playing until it was time to go in. We also had TWO recesses--one 15-minute morning one, and a half-hour one after lunch. I wonder if that school still does...probably not. On a related subject, who else has noticed that now the school buses stop at every kid's house to pick up/drop off rather than having just one bus stop for each neighborhood? Or is that just around here? It drives me crazy--holds up traffic bigtime, definitely not environmentally friendly b/c of all the idling and slow driving it creates (at a time when one would think that would be a consideration), and since when can kids not walk a block or two to the bus stop? Especially when we need to be helping them get MORE physical activity, most definitely not less!!

[OakLeaf]

Weeeeellll, I don't think kids should be walking on roads with no sidewalks, to wait in someone else's lane or yard. It's unnerving enough for me, as an adult, to run on rural roads. I wouldn't walk my dogs on the road leashed, when I had dogs, and if I had kids I certainly wouldn't allow them to walk in it. To me, that's a completely different issue from whether they go outside at recess, and whether their parents have to drive them a quarter mile (or less) down the lane and sit with their cars idling until the bus gets there.

[Jolt]

Weeeeellll, I don't think kids should be walking on roads with no sidewalks, to wait in someone else's lane or yard. It's unnerving enough for me, as an adult, to run on rural roads. I wouldn't walk my dogs on the road leashed, when I had dogs, and if I had kids I certainly wouldn't allow them to walk in it. To me, that's a completely different issue from whether they go outside at recess, and whether their parents have to drive them a quarter mile (or less) down the lane and sit with their cars idling until the bus gets there.

You bring up a valid point about roads without sidewalks, but the thing is that some of the places where I've seen this had perfectly good sidewalks. That's when it's really ridiculous.

[Tri Girl]

Don't you kinda think we're all becoming spoiled rotten candy a*#@s who are all a bit wimpy. Think of what our ancestors of 100+ years ago would say to us if we could talk to them right now. They lived without electricity, air conditioning (or heating for that matter), fast transportation (unless a buggy was fast), telephones, internet, etc etc.
I suppose the longer we're on this planet and the more technology we have- the wimpier we ALL get. :p
I'm glad I was born in this era- I don't think I would have lasted a week in the 17 or 1800's. ;)

[Jolt]

Don't you kinda think we're all becoming spoiled rotten candy a*#@s who are all a bit wimpy. Think of what our ancestors of 100+ years ago would say to us if we could talk to them right now. They lived without electricity, air conditioning (or heating for that matter), fast transportation (unless a buggy was fast), telephones, internet, etc etc.
I suppose the longer we're on this planet and the more technology we have- the wimpier we ALL get. :p


I completely agree! And even now, many other people in the world still live without those things--and yet we're the ones who complain the most when things don't go the way we want them to, while the people in some of the poorest countries often seem to have the best attitudes. Not to say that all our technology etc. doesn't have some major benefits--it does (better medical care etc. for example) and it's just plain nice to have. However, it has the down side that it allows us to be wimps and to become a really inactive society that has a lot of preventable chronic disease.

[Cataboo]

You guys are acting like it's impossible to turn off your air conditioning or turn down your heat and put a few sweaters on. I never use my air conditioning despite 90-100 degree summers & 90+% humidity around here. I don't see the point in spending a couple hundred a month on electricity for air conditioning. I see the point in my pipes not freezing for heating though. I've lived in various places that were impossible to heat and I just made sure to have a ton of clothing layers on and several down blankets on the bed.

Yes, it is impossible to do without my internet access.

I can't really remember what temperatures we were allowed outside in for recess when I was young, but I'm fairly certain the standards weren't so hardcore in Virginia. We had a great big gymnasium, and I know there were days that we had recess in the gym playing dodgeball, playing with a big huge parachute, gymnastics, rhymthic gymnastics, and square dancing. I still had a lot of fun. As far as I know, I am not a fragile lily because of my time spent indoors.

middle school - we had to change into these ridiculous shorts & t shirts for gym and we didn't go outside if it was cold - we played basketball, line danced, did gymnastics or wrestled.

High school - we only had to take 2 years of gym, I think. We all severely disliked one gym teacher because he used to force us to go out and run laps when it was cold (those shorts & t shirt gym uniforms were not very warm) But otherwise, we did a lot of indoor sports in the gyms when it got cold.


If you've got a big indoor gym with lots of active things for kids to be doing... I really don't see anything wrong with indoor recess when it's cold or wet.

[OakLeaf]

In my area, public elementary schools aren't built with gyms any more (unless they're multi-use buildings, in which case recess would probably be too close to lunchtime to be able to get all the tables removed and set up again). There's no more PE in the schools (and league athletics are pay-to-play).

Not sure what it has to do with this thread - but doing without AC in high humidity means doing away with carpeting and draperies (and possibly even drywall). That's fine if you're building a new house or moving into an existing one that was built with high humidity in mind, but not even remotely an option for someone who can't afford their electric bills. We hadn't been in our house a year when Charley/Jeanne/Francis/Ivan hit, and didn't understand this. Oh, man, do I regret replacing the damaged carpet with new carpet. :(

[Veronica]

If you've got a big indoor gym with lots of active things for kids to be doing... I really don't see anything wrong with indoor recess when it's cold or wet.

What is a gym? New public elemantary schools aren't built with them.

All of you have no concept of being "on" for four and a half hours. Imagine you are a lifeguard and you must watch the pool for four and a ahlf hours without a break.

Having been a lifeguard I can tell you that being an elementay teacher requires much the same vigilance.

Veronica

[Cataboo]

We had a dual purpose cafeteria/gym/auditorium. I guess the teachers and the lunch room personal were fast at folding up the tables & putting them back, because they would still manage to have lunch & recess in the gym/cafeteria.

But I was 5, I didn't really pay attention to what magical things that the school did so that we could have recess indoors. I just know we did have it on occasion and we still had fun and ran around a ton. And it was a welcome diversion from the usual recess "game" where the guys would chase girls and then cage them up in the jungle gyms and not let them out once they caught them. And then we'd lead other girls to rescue the caged girls.

We also somehow managed to rehearse for class skits or whatever we did in the same area. Maybe we were a small school, I think there was probably at least 4-6 classes of kids for each grade level with 20-30 kids in a class.

As for carpetting, drapes, drywall & humidity - guess I've always lived in houses of the right ages, 'cause I've never had problems with stuff like that. Basements can sometimes need a dehumidifier though. But I do tend to pay a lot of attention to drainage and I do make sure things dry if they get flooded, even if it requires ripping out drywall. And no, it doesn't have a huge deal to do with the thread, it was just in response to people saying we're all becoming pansy wimps because of our air conditioning, our heating, and the temps are kids are playing in recess at.

Aren't teachers still on at recess? We didn't have separate teachers that watched us at recess, all the 1st or 2nd grade kids would be brought out at once and all the teachers would would watch all of us run over a huge area.

[Veronica]

Teachers at my school are still on at recess - just not every day. The days I have recess duty coincide with the days I have a prep period. Thus I usually get some sort of break each morning. Today I do not have a prep period and we will have rainy day recess. The students will stay in my classroom. I will have them under my supervision from 8:15 until 12:30 when we go to lunch.

If I had to do that every day, I'd go crazy. Just having rainy day recess every day last week has increased my stress level. And I have good kids.

Veronica

[Jolt]

[SIZE="7"]
All of you have no concept of being "on" for four and a half hours. Imagine you are a lifeguard and you must watch the pool for four and a ahlf hours without a break.


Been there, done that--I know exactly what you mean! Especially tough when you have a pool full of kids (whether little kids, teenage hooligan boys or anything in between)--not so bad when it's the early bird shift with all adult lap swimmers. I would imagine being an elementary teacher would be much, much tougher than guarding a pool full of kids!

[SadieKate]

What is a gym? New public elementary schools aren't built with them.Back in, ahem, the dark ages, only the highschools had gyms.

[Biciclista]

and a related subject:
NYTIMES:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/play-then-eat-shift-may-bring-gains-at-school/
Play, Then Eat: Shift May Bring Gains at School
By TARA PARKER-POPE
Kirsten Luce for The New York Times SWITCHED Children playing before lunch at Sharon Elementary School in Robbinsville, N.J. “Kids are calmer after they’ve had recess first,” the school’s principal said.

Can something as simple as the timing of recess make a difference in a child’s health and behavior?

Some experts think it can, and now some schools are rescheduling recess — sending students out to play before they sit down for lunch. The switch appears to have led to some surprising changes in both cafeteria and classroom.

Schools that have tried it report that when children play before lunch, there is less food waste and higher consumption of milk, fruit and vegetables. And some teachers say there are fewer behavior problems.

“Kids are calmer after they’ve had recess first,” said Janet Sinkewicz, principal of Sharon Elementary School in Robbinsville, N.J., which made the change last fall. “They feel like they have more time to eat and they don’t have to rush.”

One recent weekday at Sharon, I watched as gaggles of second graders chased one another around the playground and climbed on monkey bars. When the whistle blew, the bustling playground emptied almost instantly, and the children lined up to drop off their coats and mittens and file quietly into the cafeteria for lunch.

“All the wiggles are out,” Ms. Sinkewicz said.

....


“For some reason, kids aren’t losing things outside,” Ms. Sinkewicz said. “The lost-and-found mound has gone down.”

[Crankin]

I worked at an elementary school 95-99. We instituted the exact changes that were talked about in that article.
It made a world of difference.

[Tri Girl]

We luckily have a gym at out school, but during the two hour period of lunch/recess time for the 9 grades at our school, there is inevitably PE class going on at some point in the gym. It's the PE teacher's classroom, and if she's teaching class (which she is), you can't just take the kids in there and let them run around during her class time.

Indoor recess is one thing I DON'T miss now that I'm a librarian (my first year in the library). Of course, they come to my class after being indoors and they are 10 times more squirelly, but that's to be expected. ;)

V- have you noticed the return of Rubik's cubes and yo-yo's? It's hit our school big-time. The kids all love these *new* fun toys. Makes me giggle. They don't know yo-yo's are decades and decades old and the Rubik's cube is 20+ years old. ;)

I've always wondered if the recess first would make sense. I would guess it would!

[Veronica]

Not seeing the Rubik's cubes and yoyos here.

We tried recess first last year. The kids loved playing first, but then they really lollygagged eating their lunches. We're back to eat first.

Veronica

[Cataboo]

I just had this conversation with my sister - her 8 year old has type 1 diabetes and even with the insulin pump, they've been having a heck of a time keeping her blood sugar under control & she's been having heart palpitations for the last month or so... Part of the problem seems to be that they haven't had recess for the last 2 months because of the temperatures (they live in Virginia). So while dealing with a cardiologist and the rest of that, my sister has been asking the teacher... why haven't they had recess because it really hasn't been that cold and I think below freezing is supposed to be the temperatures they cancel recess for...

The teacher told her to talk to the principal, because she couldn't talk about it... and the principal said that it was because about half the student body comes to school without a coat because their families can't afford it, and she wasn't going to watch kids outside at recess freezing to death. So they've decided my niece can walk around the class room for 5 mins every hour so that she can have some more exercise.