Hand built wheels: what's the advantage?

[Ana]

The bike shop totally got me :p I went in for something else and I ended up with a new seat post clamp. Why do visits to the LBS repeatedly result in unplanned purchases and spark ideas of purchasing additional gear and accessories? During this visit, it was hand built wheels. Right now, I just have some stock Campy wheels which are working fine for me but I have very little experience with wheelsets.

What are the advantages of hand built wheels? First hand, how are they better? The wrench I talked to was telling me how I could benefit from a hand built wheel because I'm much lighter than the weight for which most wheels are built. Mostly, I want to know what riding them is like :)

Basically, I would be looking to help improve my climbing and a more comfortable ride.

I would have to consider this purchase for a while before committing but I'm very curious about your experiences (and not a sales pitch ;))

[MartianDestiny]

Theoretical information:

1) You can put the weight (or lack thereof) where YOU want it (stronger rims/lighter hubs visa versa...)

2) As a lighter person you can have a very light, strong enough for you set of wheels for (theoretically) less $$$ than a similarly light set would cost from say Mavic (whose building wheels for 165lb men)

3) Customized BLING (King or Hope hubs....drool....of course King hubs will set you back to costing what a prebuilt set is gonna cost)

4) As a lighter person you can get rid of the bladed spokes and deep rims that are popular now (but which blow us small, light folk all over the road!!!)

5) Allows you to spend the money where you want it: Really care about the hubs sacrifice the rims...really want carbon aero rims sacrifice the hubs.

bla bla bla, drivel drivel, etc, etc. Basically it boils down to getting a set of wheels built for YOU which I imagine is very nice. Based on my basic pricing comparison it is true that you can indeed get a much nicer (read lighter but still durable and nice) set of handbuilt wheels with tried and tested components (Mavic Open pro rims, something like Ultegra hubs) than you can prebuilts in the $500-650ish range. When you are talking $1k wheels I'm not sure if the distinction is there (this is especially true if you can build them yourself or if your shop gives you a deal on labor).

I'm waiting on my new bike to be built up. It came with a pair of custom hand made wheels (King hubs, thin spokes, and some sort of nice low profile rim). I'll let you know what I think about them compared to my Mavic Ksyrium Equipes when I get a chance to ride them (but bear in mind I'll be comparing a pair of $1k custom wheels to $450-500 stock wheels; most of that $$ being in the King hubs...)

[indysteel]

MartianDestiny did a good job summing it up. I went the custom route because, for the money, I got a much lighter wheel, built specifically for someone my size, than I could have gotten off the shelf. I went with a build suggested by SadieKate and Jobob and have been very, very happy with them. Velocity Aerohead rims, Sapim spokes, and White Industries hubs. I love, love, love the hubs. Beyond having to true them once after they were broken in, they'be been completley maintenance free. I, personally, also liked working with the wheel builder. The whole experience felt like a "guilty pleasure," but in the end I got a great product for the fraction of what I might have otherwise paid for wheels of a similar weight.

[Melalvai]

I've built two wheels because my friend at the bike shop said they are so much fun to build. He said they end up better than factory built wheels because they are better balanced. I think he had me stress the spokes, which factories don't routinely do.

My experience was that the bike seemed to want to leap forward. That's the best way I could think of to describe it. My bike shop friend explained that is because the wheel is more responsive.

My understanding is that the advantage is it is sturdier. For me (commuter cyclist) that is really important, as I put my bike through a lot, what with hauling groceries, in town hills, lots of stops and starts.

[Ana]

How did you select the parts you chose? What parts are responsible for what riding qualities? I am not completely clear what a nice hub, spokes or rim separately translates into regarding the ride experience :)

How did you find your wheel builder? Did you get to test ride something they made before you buy?

[MartianDestiny]

I bought mine already built, but I was considering building a similar set myself so I'll answer as best I can.

1) Spokes: this was easy for me as I am TIRED of the horrible cross-wind performance of my current wheels. Wanted a nice set of "old school", non-bladed spokes. I'm not hard on wheels (being 120lbs and riding fairly decent roads) so lightness over durability for me (to an extent; I don't want the wheels tacoing on me either)

2) Rim: Again wanted something low profile to reduce cross-wind problems. That limits it some, but there's still a large selection.

3) Hubs: Eh, honestly I don't care so long as they hold up and are reasonably light (LOTS of hubs fit that bill). Picked Kings for the blingy anodized red to match my bike.

Aside from that you can go to a good wheelbuilder with basic ideas like these, basic ideas of what ride quality you want, and a basic price range and they can help you pick what will work best.

So I'd go to a wheelbuilder with something like this: "first priority is to minimize effects of crosswinds (lowish spoke count, thin spokes, low profile rims). Also want a wheelset that feels snappy and lively and accelerates well (as opposed to one that rides smooth; this is my personal preference. This distinction will help narrow rim choices). Want as light as is feasible, but expect the wheels to be durable for my weight and riding style. Budget is XXX"

They should then counter with ok we can do XXX or XXX or maybe XXX here's the benefits and drawbacks of each.

(Going somewhere like RBR forums will also give you a good idea of popular builds and characteristics for hubs and rims since they have a wheel specific forum with lots of people riding custom builds.)

[indysteel]

I bought mine already built, but I was considering building a similar set myself so I'll answer as best I can.

1) Spokes: this was easy for me as I am TIRED of the horrible cross-wind performance of my current wheels. Wanted a nice set of "old school", non-bladed spokes. I'm not hard on wheels (being 120lbs and riding fairly decent roads) so lightness over durability for me (to an extent; I don't want the wheels tacoing on me either)

2) Rim: Again wanted something low profile to reduce cross-wind problems. That limits it some, but there's still a large selection.

3) Hubs: Eh, honestly I don't care so long as they hold up and are reasonably light (LOTS of hubs fit that bill). Picked Kings for the blingy anodized red to match my bike.

Aside from that you can go to a good wheelbuilder with basic ideas like these, basic ideas of what ride quality you want, and a basic price range and they can help you pick what will work best.

So I'd go to a wheelbuilder with something like this: "first priority is to minimize effects of crosswinds (lowish spoke count, thin spokes, low profile rims). Also want a wheelset that feels snappy and lively and accelerates well (as opposed to one that rides smooth; this is my personal preference. This distinction will help narrow rim choices). Want as light as is feasible, but expect the wheels to be durable for my weight and riding style. Budget is XXX"

They should then counter with ok we can do XXX or XXX or maybe XXX here's the benefits and drawbacks of each.

(Going somewhere like RBR forums will also give you a good idea of popular builds and characteristics for hubs and rims since they have a wheel specific forum with lots of people riding custom builds.)

That mirrors my experience. When I first started thinking about them, I did some research on RBR on both parts and wheelbuilders and also posted a question here. I quickly got a sense of what was out there. Like MartianDestiny, I wanted to get away from bladed spokes and otherwise wanted a good all-around wheel that was built for my weight (115-120 lbs). BTW, if you want to go with a low-ish spoke count build that rules out a handful of hubs that just don't come in a low spoke count.

Finally, I called the builder and he just walked me through it. He asked me about my weight, my riding style and habits and ideal cost. Then he suggested the build. His suggestions was virtually identical to what SadieKate had suggested, so I pulled the trigger right then and there and had the wheels a short time later. I got some QR skewers on my own after a bit more research and off I went. I suppose the process might have been a bit more complicated if I wanted something fancier, but at my pricepoint, it was pretty straightforward.

[Melalvai]

My bike shop friend told me what to get on my first wheel. The second wheel I got because I was getting the generator hub, it came from Peter White Cycles. Later I had to replace the hub (hubs NEVER fail, but mine did!) and I simply re-built that wheel, I didn't need to get new parts. I did that with the help of yet another bike shop friend!

[jobob]

MartianDestiny did a good job summing it up. I went the custom route because, for the money, I got a much lighter wheel, built specifically for someone my size, than I could have gotten off the shelf. I went with a build suggested by SadieKate and Jobob and have been very, very happy with them. Velocity Aerohead rims, Sapim spokes, and White Industries hubs. I love, love, love the hubs. Beyond having to true them once after they were broken in, they'be been completley maintenance free. I, personally, also liked working with the wheel builder. The whole experience felt like a "guilty pleasure," but in the end I got a great product for the fraction of what I might have otherwise paid for wheels of a similar weight.

Yep. Good wheels are wonderful. I never appreciated what a difference a reliable, sturdy, easily serviceable & reasonably lightweight set of wheels makes until I got a set. I sincerely believe that when people test-ride bikes, much of the difference they perceive between various bikes (with respect to comfort, handing and what not) might be in large part due to different wheelsets on those bikes.

White Industries hubs are excellent, and very pretty too. :cool: If you do a search on White Industries you'll find there are a lot of fans in our midst.

Here's a particularly good thread in that regard from some time ago, describing Dachshund's (then) new Seven:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?p=368546&highlight=white+industries

Have fun!

[indysteel]

I think White Industries should be giving Jobob and SadieKate (and me, too, while they're at it) a kickback for as many times as we'vre recommended them!!!! :p My fiance has them on his road wheels, too, and loves them. Everytime someone services my bike, they drool over my wheels.

I'll give them this further plug: Right before a weeklong tour, I took my bike in for a tune up and got all freaked out when my mechanic suggested that there was too much play in my front wheel's hub. Fearing for my life, I called WI. A very helpful and knowledgeable woman answered by questions, educated me a bit on play and assured me that the wheel was just fine. WI had a table at NAHBS in Indianapolis last year and I talked to them a bit about how helpful their employee had been and how pleased I was with my hubs. They were as nice as could be.

[MartianDestiny]

Yep. Good wheels are wonderful. I never appreciated what a difference a reliable, sturdy, easily serviceable...

I forgot this part (not having too many wheel issues in my career), but it is a large advantage custom wheels have over a large majority of pre-builts now (especially the fancy prebuilts with proprietary hubs, spokes, rims).

A set of well made custom wheels can be serviced by basically ANY knowledgeable mechanic with standard tools and parts (or even yourself if you work up the nerve).

So if you DO work it out of true, loose a spoke, etc. you aren't without options or without your wheels for long.

A fair number of the factory wheels require special tools, parts, and knowledge to fix. Lots of complaints about Mavic specifically on this front. If the shop will even touch them (not just send them back to Mavic) you have to wait for the parts to come in and get charged an arm and a leg for the specialty service they require.

Also if you do manage to destroy it you can typically have it rebuilt (new rim, new spokes) for less than buying a whole new wheel. That's less likely to be the case with a proprietary wheel (they charge outrageous amounts for their replacement parts from what I have seen).

[SadieKate]

A couple of things to think about:

Hub sound - each brand has its own distinctive sound. Chris King hubs can sound like angry bees. I like WI's sound. Others may be silent.

Easily serviceable as jobob says - Check on this. Chris King hubs take a proprietary tool set which your shop may or may not have. Other hubs can be serviced by the owner (i.e., you) with standard tools.

Pawls - the pawls inside the hub are a little one way ratchet. The number and design affect not only the sound, but the response of the hub. For instance, if you ratchet (or back pedal) when mountain biking to clear an obstacle, more pawls and engagement places will mean your hub will rotate forward faster upon pedaling forward again. Yeah, I know this is a terrible oversimplification, but hopefully the concept is clear.

I've been very pleased with both White Industries (WI) and Hope. We've had several wheelsets built from each and been happy.

[MartianDestiny]

Easily serviceable as jobob says - Check on this. Chris King hubs take a proprietary tool set which your shop may or may not have. Other hubs can be serviced by the owner (i.e., you) with standard tools.


Not entirely true. Everything but a complete rebuild (which should not often be necessary barring malfunction) on a King can be accomplished with standard tools (and, with some mechanical knowledge, can be accomplished without a shop). A complete rebuild does require one specialized tool (which on the order of things is not egregiously expensive; not that I'll be buying one soon).

I'm not a King fangirl; in fact I probably would have went with HOPE hubs had I not gotten these wheels for basically what a King rear hub would cost me, but I'd still put them in the reasonably serviceable category (especially if you take care of them rather than waiting for them to break)

But, the point is valid. Make sure your shop can service what you purchase (or you can, if that's important to you) unless you are willing to send it back to the builder or manufacturer (King will service their hubs for you if you want to send them in).

[cattygrrl]

What are the advantages of hand built wheels? First hand, how are they better? The wrench I talked to was telling me how I could benefit from a hand built wheel because I'm much lighter than the weight for which most wheels are built. Mostly, I want to know what riding them is like :)

Aside from crosswind performance, better-quality wheels differ little in feel. ALL better quality wheels are hand-built, even those high-bling Mavics, Bontragers, HED products and ZIPP wheels. All are tensioned and stress-relieved.

All better-grade wheels are essentially rigid structures (any wheel flex is of such small magnitude that it's FAR overshadowed by tire flex), so MOST if not all perceived difference is in your tires.

Still, a lighter wheel will accelerate a bit better than a heavy wheel.

+1 on the serviceability issues raised by others. Most bike shops have regular-style spokes in assorted sizes on the shelf. Some shops have the Phil Wood spoke machine and can cut spokes to your size easily. Try that with a Mavic Ksyrium!

[SadieKate]

A complete rebuild does require one specialized tool (which on the order of things is not egregiously expensive; not that I'll be buying one soon).Not expensive? $160 for one tool that works on one brand component? Not in my world. Yes, they are incredibly bullet proof hubs. At one time, CK was very cranky about who could buy tools, even forcing shops to attend a course on hub mtc. It's made me swear off their hubs.

http://chrisking.com/tools/tls_hubs

Now, their headsets are another story. Excellent choice.

[SadieKate]

Aside from crosswind performance, better-quality wheels differ little in feel. Not entirely true. For instance, a low profile rim can be difficult to find in many pre-built wheels, and it can definitely be felt by lighter weight riders. Even my 200+ lb hubby can feel the difference in taller vs lower profile rims on chipseal or over repeated expansion cracks.

I think Ana was actually asking was about custom built wheels and just didn't understand. It's the same question as asking about a custom frame. Many high end carbon frames are "hand built" to some extent, but they're still cookie cutter products. There are certain things that can be done to make the ride different in a custom built wheel.

[Ana]

I think Ana was actually asking was about custom built wheels and just didn't understand. It's the same question as asking about a custom frame. Many high end carbon frames are "hand built" to some extent, but they're still cookie cutter products. There are certain things that can be done to make the ride different in a custom built wheel.

Yes, I mean custom built wheels...hehe...most wheels are probably hand built (or maybe they aren't and that could be a less-than-desirable thing..) Refining my concept of them is exactly why I'm asking :p :D Mostly, a wheels built more for my weight and riding style :) My dream is to not hate climbing (which may or may not happen...ever) ;)

[Eden]

Now, their headsets are another story. Excellent choice.

a little OT.... depends I guess. I have a CK headset on one of my bikes and the darn thing comes loose rather often.... and its a bit of a butt pain when your head set comes loose. I've never had this happen on any other bike.

more on topic. Custom built wheels don't necessarily have to be expensive either. I have customs on my rain bike because it would cost just as much to get a decent set of hard wearing prebuilt wheels. My rain bike rims take a pretty good beating and need to be replaced fairly often (more than I really like...), but the hubs are perfectly fine. I think it cost me around $300 for the pair, and that was with buying a front hub (the one I had for the front had too low a spoke count to take anything but lighter weight rims - not what I wanted for this bike)

[SadieKate]

a little OT.... depends I guess. I have a CK headset on one of my bikes and the darn thing comes loose rather often.... and its a bit of a butt pain when your head set comes loose. I've never had this happen on any other bike.DH had that happen on one headset until we found out that the mechanic had left out a race or ring or something. I don't remember the details, but I'll try to ask him when he gets home. Since the part was added, not a problem.