Traveling to Belgium...Papaver help!!!!

[indysteel]

My soon-to-be husband (OMG! :D) are planning our honeymoon in May. Tentatively, we'd like to spend some time in Paris, which is my "happy" place, and Bruges. We thought we'd likely fly into Paris, spend 6 or so days and then take the Thalys train to Lille and then another train to Bruges. From there, things get a little muddy. We intended to spend four or so full days there with the thought of renting a car to do a bit of exploring in Belgium. We'd then drive to Brussels to fly home. I've read that there is generally no fee for renting a car in Belgium in one city and leaving it at another, but I can't say that I've verified that.

However, a few friends have mentioned what a nightmare it was for them to rent a car in France, and I'm wondering if the same is generally true in Belgium. Neither of us know how to drive a manual either, so there's that.

So, Papaver (or anyone else who live in or is familiar with Belgium), do you have any recommendations? Even though Paris is my happy place, I've been there several times and would really like to see something new this trip. That said, if it's going to be a big expensive headache, then we can rethink it.

Thanks!

[tulip]

I have not found renting a car to be a nightmare in France, unless you want to change your reservation once you have the car, like if you want to extend your rental. Only then did I run into problems because it was a holiday weekend and there were no other cars to rent. But even that was not a nightmare.

You can rent automatics in France, but they are harder to come by. Is there any chance you can learn to drive a manual? You will pay alot more for an automatic, and they might not be readily available. The best solution would be to learn to drive a manual at home to be prepared in case you get stuck with a manual transmission car.

I've been to Bruges, and it's a very walkable city. However, it was nice to get out and see the countryside with a car.

Sounds like a nice trip!

[indysteel]

I have not found renting a car to be a nightmare in France, unless you want to change your reservation once you have the car, like if you want to extend your rental. Only then did I run into problems because it was a holiday weekend and there were no other cars to rent. But even that was not a nightmare.

You can rent automatics in France, but they are harder to come by. Is there any chance you can learn to drive a manual? You will pay alot more for an automatic, and they might not be readily available. The best solution would be to learn to drive a manual at home to be prepared in case you get stuck with a manual transmission car.

I've been to Bruges, and it's a very walkable city. However, it was nice to get out and see the countryside with a car.

Sounds like a nice trip!

Thanks. I was surprised when my friends said how difficult it was to rent a car in France, because I've known so many people who have rented cars in Europe that I assumed it wasn't THAT hard. One said that the insurance required by the company was rather steep.

I'll pass on the information about manuals v. automatics. My boyfriend is a total car fanatic/gearhead, so while I'm surprised he doesn't know how to drive a stick, I doubt it will take much time for him to pick it up.

[Cataboo]

The problem with learning to drive a stick in France/Belgium is that you are going to be driving a stick, trying to figure out road signs in another language, going around round abouts, while keeping an eye out for cyclists, pedestrians, and other cars.

And trying to read a map. Often times directions are not given in Route 1 north vs route 1 south, they're going tob e in "LIlle this way" "all other directions that way"

And you're going to be trying to get used to roundabouts.

I theoretically know how to drive a stick and have theoretically driven one for years (I initially learned to drive on a stick and have driven other people's stick shifts over the years, but have never had a stick shift myself), but it's still quite difficult to manage all of the above while driving a stickshift in france and belgium because I'm still strugglin with the stick. I can't imagine what kind of a terror it will be for you guys to try to figure out how to drive a stick while doing all of the above. If you are going to drive a stick over there, find a friend who has a stick shift and is willing to sacrifice their clutch for you guys so that you won't be complete noobs when you get over there. YOu can request an automatic, sometimes they charge more for them.

It is not difficult to rent a car in France, and I've rented a car a few times in Paris and dropped it off in Brussels. I don't remember there being required additional insurance fees - but you may have to prove that you get insurance from your credit card. If you want more protection, american express has an extended auto insurance program where if you sign up, everytime you rent a car on it, they will charge you $25 extra for extended insurance coverage. But make sure of all of that and the conditions when you are renting the car. Sometimes they charge extra for two drivers, so make sure you don't get surprised by that.

What else? In Belgium - Ghent's gorgeous, as is Antwerp, Brussels as well. Visit those. Belgium does have a really extensive rail system, so you really aren't going to need a car, and it might be a pain dealing with parking in cities - city hotels may charge parking. If it's warm, Oostende's a pretty beach town.

If you do rent the car in France, you can drive drive to Belgium via Normandy, etc. and do some of the sight seeing along the way.

My recommendation would be to not rent the car at the car rental place under the Louvre (or under the thing across the street) Driving in Paris is a nightmare. Driving in Paris a couple of times and getting food poisoning there another time or two has basically spoiled your happy place for me.


You could maybe check out Ryanair.com and see what flights are around europe - they do fly into Brussels Charleroi and you used to be able to get dirt cheap flights between that, scotland, ireland, italy, and spain

[tulip]

Catriona has a good point--learn to drive a manual transmission before you go, not once you're there. In fact, learn to drive a manual anyways. It makes one a better driver because you actually have to pay attention to driving. But I digress...

I've had success renting a car with Kemwel before I go. They are a consolidator, dealing with multiple rental companies. Or you can go with Hertz or Avis--it might help if you sign up for their Gold Plan or Preferred Customer plan before you go so you will have extra support when you get there if you need it.

While I generally prefer to take trains in Europe, having a car is the only way (besides a bike--hey why not explore by bike?) to see the countryside and small villages that are not served by rail.

Bruges has wonderful canals. I would have liked to have my bike when I was there to explore the canals. If I were to go back, and someday I will, I will take a bike tour of the canals for a week or two.

[shootingstar]

In addition to buying a Eurail pass (you don't have to do the whole trip by rail), there are the bike share systems in the downtown areas of Paris and Brussels. (Brussels' bike share system was implemented just a few wks. after the international Velocity bike conference in 2009.) :D

Pic of Paris bike share system here:
http://thirdwavecyclingblog.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/bike-designs-for-bike-share-systems-challenging-one-size-fits-all-or-ways-to-avoid-some-pain/

Both cities have subway systems also. Save yourself the car agony, at least when travelling within those big cities.

I've been to Bruges awhile ago for a few days and my partner was there just last year for a few days in Belgium. With its medieval canal system and other narrow roads in downtown area, might be more fun to leisurely cycle along anyway.

[papaver]

The problem with learning to drive a stick in France/Belgium is that you are going to be driving a stick, trying to figure out road signs in another language, going around round abouts, while keeping an eye out for cyclists, pedestrians, and other cars.

And trying to read a map. Often times directions are not given in Route 1 north vs route 1 south, they're going tob e in "LIlle this way" "all other directions that way"

And you're going to be trying to get used to roundabouts.

I theoretically know how to drive a stick and have theoretically driven one for years (I initially learned to drive on a stick and have driven other people's stick shifts over the years, but have never had a stick shift myself), but it's still quite difficult to manage all of the above while driving a stickshift in france and belgium because I'm still strugglin with the stick. I can't imagine what kind of a terror it will be for you guys to try to figure out how to drive a stick while doing all of the above. If you are going to drive a stick over there, find a friend who has a stick shift and is willing to sacrifice their clutch for you guys so that you won't be complete noobs when you get over there. YOu can request an automatic, sometimes they charge more for them.

It is not difficult to rent a car in France, and I've rented a car a few times in Paris and dropped it off in Brussels. I don't remember there being required additional insurance fees - but you may have to prove that you get insurance from your credit card. If you want more protection, american express has an extended auto insurance program where if you sign up, everytime you rent a car on it, they will charge you $25 extra for extended insurance coverage. But make sure of all of that and the conditions when you are renting the car. Sometimes they charge extra for two drivers, so make sure you don't get surprised by that.

What else? In Belgium - Ghent's gorgeous, as is Antwerp, Brussels as well. Visit those. Belgium does have a really extensive rail system, so you really aren't going to need a car, and it might be a pain dealing with parking in cities - city hotels may charge parking. If it's warm, Oostende's a pretty beach town.

If you do rent the car in France, you can drive drive to Belgium via Normandy, etc. and do some of the sight seeing along the way.

My recommendation would be to not rent the car at the car rental place under the Louvre (or under the thing across the street) Driving in Paris is a nightmare. Driving in Paris a couple of times and getting food poisoning there another time or two has basically spoiled your happy place for me.


You could maybe check out Ryanair.com and see what flights are around europe - they do fly into Brussels Charleroi and you used to be able to get dirt cheap flights between that, scotland, ireland, italy, and spain

I would also advise you to travel by train and not by car. It is dead easy. Bruges is beautiful, Ghent is my most favorite city (but i'm biased, i studied there), Brussels is nice if you know it, Antwerp(en) is the place to be if you love to shop and if you love trendy stuff (the Antwerp trainstation is magnificent!!!!). Leuven is small but quite nice and cosy. Everything is very easy by train. Brussels airport has it's own trainstation so no problems there. And you don't have to park your car (very expensive!!!!) I would advise you to stay in Gent. It's more central than bruges. But even when you stay in Bruges you'll never be longer than one hour on the train (maybe 1h15 max).

I think it's easier to take the Thalys from Paris to Brussels and then the train to bruges (it'll be faster I think, but I'm not sure).

[papaver]

oh yes and you can rent bikes (same system as in paris) in brussels too. it must be possible in bruges and gent too. Bruges (Leuven) and Gent are very cycling friendly cities because the medieval centres are car free. And like Tulip said, bruges, ghent, brussels, antwerp and leuven are very walkable cities. Oostende is nice in the springtime. De Haan is very pretty too (belle epoque coast city).

[indysteel]

Oh, he'd most definitely learn to drive a stick before we went to Europe. That said, the idea of trying to navigate in a foreign country doesn't appeal to me terribly. One of my friends who had a bad experience with renting a car in France had a GPS for the car, and she said it come in VERY handy.

Papaver, Gent is one of the places we wanted to drive to. Beyond being more centrally located than Bruges, why do you prefer it? A few years back, Budget Travel magazine did an article on Gent and I remember thinking "I must go there," but I can't remember much from it. I remember that it was very cycling-centric. I like the idea of renting bikes for the day and tooling around.

Thanks for all the help. If you have any suggestions regarding where to eat, what to see, etc., I'd certainly welcome them.

[indysteel]

One other question, Papaver. We're planning to depart Tuesday May 4th and return Saturday May 15th. I'm torn about how to split up the time and which city to go to first. On the assumption that we take a day trip to either Gent or Bruges (depending on which we choose for a base), how much time should be budget for Belgium? Do you think it's appreciably easier to fly or depart from either city? Flying into and out of Paris is a PITA if a recollect correctly!

[Cataboo]

A GPS will be handy. Load it up with the maps for Belgium & France before you go. I used mine driving in Scotland last year, and in Costa Rica a few months ago.

Just know that the GPS isn't quite a replacement for having a map and knowing where you're going - you can start blindly following those things down bizarre paths. And it can still be confusing which way you're supposed to go off a roundabout.

[tulip]

Indysteel, are you wanting to stay and visit cities only or get to little farms and countryside? If you are going to stay in the cities, definitely TAKE THE TRAIN!

If you decide you need a day in the country, the best thing to do is to take the train to a smaller town and rent a car from there.

But the best advice is to take the train and not drive. Trains are more convenient and a whole, whole, whole lot cheaper than renting a car. Renting a car is expensive because of the rental fees and tarifs (high), gas (like $8 gallon), tolls (very high--like $20 each time last time I was there), and parking (expensive and a total PITA).

So why would you want to drive, again??

[Grog]

I also agree that taking the train is the single best way to get around. You can always rent bikes and go for easy rides (it's pretty flat) on the country side without even having to go more than 20 km. Especially in Belgium.

Driving in Brussels or Paris would really, really ruin things for me. I've driven over about a third of France, but I have horrible memories of driving in Paris. The Velib' however is so much fun!

I'm very envious!

Some lovely Belgian images from my friend Hugues, perhaps the first photoblogger, who's still going strong after 14 years: http://www.fugitif.net/
http://fugitif.net/ig/1658/photo.jpg

[Grog]

p.s. I should say that for my husband the experience of taking the train in Europe was one of the most exotic things on his first trip there!

[Cataboo]

I have a picture of myself in the beguinage at about the same spot - except the daffodils were in bloom all over the yard.

[papaver]

And if you want to spend a day in the country, you can always ask me to drive you guys around. It's no biggie. ;)

Maybe we can visit the most important places of the spring classics. :)

[krisl6]

Just to throw in my two cents: I live in Holland which is similar to Belgium and as an American I find the streets here (especially in the city centers) very narrow and crowded and the parking spaces are a lot smaller too! Not to mention all of the bikes, pedestrians, scooters, cars, etc. It can get pretty hectic and stressful, especially if you don't know exactly where you're going. That being said I've found the public transport systems in Holland, France and Belgium to be very good. Take the train and that way you can relax and enjoy your honeymoon and not argue about directions, driving, etc.

[papaver]

Oh, he'd most definitely learn to drive a stick before we went to Europe. That said, the idea of trying to navigate in a foreign country doesn't appeal to me terribly. One of my friends who had a bad experience with renting a car in France had a GPS for the car, and she said it come in VERY handy.

Papaver, Gent is one of the places we wanted to drive to. Beyond being more centrally located than Bruges, why do you prefer it? A few years back, Budget Travel magazine did an article on Gent and I remember thinking "I must go there," but I can't remember much from it. I remember that it was very cycling-centric. I like the idea of renting bikes for the day and tooling around.

Thanks for all the help. If you have any suggestions regarding where to eat, what to see, etc., I'd certainly welcome them.

Bruges is beautiful, no doubt about it. But it's also dead in the evenings. Ghent is just as beautiful, it's less touristical and very vibrant during the night. It's a great balance between culture, cuisine, shopping and just fun. I know a great B&B in Gent. What to visit? Just walk around and be amazed. There are so many medieval buildings, little streets (like Patershol). And the centre of the city (that's almost 65%) is entirely car free. And you can cycle to Sint-Martens-Latem (15 kms or so). That is a very very pittoresk place. A lot of artsist lived there at the beginning of the 20th century.

On Sunday mornings there are small markets everywhere in Gent (the flower market with live music, a champagne & oyster stand > extremely popular and very cosy). Bookmarkets, antiques... Great stuff.

Everything in Belgium is very closeby. So if you only visit cities, it's a bit silly to rent a car. There is a slight difference between drivers in the States and Europe (ahum). They are a lot more agressive.

If you take the Thalys (high speed train) from Paris to Brussels, it only takes 1h20 mins (yes only 80 minutes). And you have no traffic jams whatsoever. I never go to paris with my car because it's so much easier. And i hardly ever visit a city by car either. The train is so much easier.

To visit the cities, count a day per city. And then you can decide which city you can go back to (you'll definately want that). Between Bruges and Gent it's only 45 kms or so. More or less the same between Gent and Brussels and Gent and Antwerpen.

This is a very handy site to plan your trip by train.
http://www.b-rail.be/main/E/

If you would do this by car you'll have lots of traffic jams, and you'll loose lots of time searching parkingspace. I personally would never do it.

You can fly back to the states from Brussels airport (it has its own trainstation), or you can take the Thalys back to paris (which will be cheaper, i think).

This is the site for the high speed train. http://www.thalys.com/

The earlier you order your trainticket, the cheaper it'll be.

[papaver]

Oh yes and if you want to drive in Belgium.... ahum... there's one minor confusing thing. If you are in the french part of Belgium you'll have to follow the signs: Bruxelles, Anvers, Bruges, Louvain or Gand, depending if you want to go to Brussel, Antwerpen, Brugge, Leuven or Gent. The same goes for the dutch part of Belgium. If you want to visit Liège, Namur or Bastogne... you'll have to follow the signs Luik, Namen, Bastenaken.

Oh yes and we have another rather strange rule. If there is a street on your right, stop and let the other drivers coming from that street pass... Maybe Kris can explain you that one. :o

[krisl6]

Oh yes and we have another rather strange rule. If there is a street on your right, stop and let the other drivers coming from that street pass... Maybe Kris can explain you that one. :o

Haha. Yeah that was a new one to me. Almost got myself killed on more than one occasion! Strange rule indeed. And right turns can be pretty scary too if there's a bike coming up behind you. Stick with the trains I say! ;)

[papaver]

oh yeah and if you hit a pedestrian or a cyclist with your car, you are ALWAYS responsible for their medical bills, and no you don't get a discount.

[indysteel]

Thank you so much for all the helpful advice. You've sold me on taking the train. I've travelled by train fairly extensively in Ireland and the UK and loved it. I'm sure Brian will, too. I was really only considering renting a car for our days in Belgium, but it seems that everyone agrees that it's likely not worth the trouble. No way would we drive in Paris. I'd die of a heartattack for sure.

Papaver, you're making Gent sound VERY attractive. I did a few searches on the other cycling site I frequent and several people on that forum said they prefer Gent to Bruges as well. I'll share all of this with Brian. In the meantime, if you want to forward your B&B recommendation to me, that would be great.

I'm sure to have other questions at some point!

[sfa]

If you are in the french part of Belgium you'll have to follow the signs: Bruxelles, Anvers, Bruges, Louvain or Gand, depending if you want to go to Brussel, Antwerpen, Brugge, Leuven or Gent. The same goes for the dutch part of Belgium. If you want to visit Liège, Namur or Bastogne... you'll have to follow the signs Luik, Namen, Bastenaken.
:o

It took me six years to realize that Aix-la-Chapelle (which I learned about in my French classes) was the SAME PLACE as Aachen (which I learned about in my art history classes). OK, not a Dutch/French difference, just a border town thing.

Sheesh.

[papaver]

This can be helpfull...

http://www.bedandbreakfast-gent.be/_en/home.php

Look at the extras. :D

[papaver]

It took me six years to realize that Aix-la-Chapelle (which I learned about in my French classes) was the SAME PLACE as Aachen (which I learned about in my art history classes). OK, not a Dutch/French difference, just a border town thing.

Sheesh.

If i go one mile to my left I live in Tirlemont-Gossencourt, if I go one mile to my right I live in Tienen-Goetsenhoven. :D

[Grog]

Ok, nobody has mentioned the movie. Papaver did say that Bruges is a bit quiet at night.

I had a lovely time there, but would definitely not spend four days. So Ghent, Antwerp sound like a great idea! BUT: do see the movie, I think it's funny (in a weird kind of way): In Bruges http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/

[papaver]

He (the character of Collin Farrell) is right though... nothing happens in Bruges. It is absolutely beautiful, but not if you want to see some nightlife. Bruges is a museum, Ghent and Antwerp are vibrant.


A very funny but still handy site: http://www.use-it.be/ghent/

[indysteel]

So, I think we worked out our itinerary. We're spending six nights in Paris, one in Brussels and three in Gent. We'll take the train to Bruges one day and hopefully spend another tooling around the countryside on bikes, weather permitting. Otherwise, we'll figure out how to spend that third day (Antwerp, another day in Gent or Bruges?) once we get there and get a stronger sense of what's most appealing to us. Of course, your suggestions are still very much welcome.

Thanks for your input!

[papaver]

If you want to cycle outside of Bruges maybe ride to Damme (wich is beautiful!!!!). http://www.damme-online.com/gb.htm

If you cycle in and around Gent, go to Sint-Martens-Latem/Deurne/De Pinte. Very nice too. For the exact route you can go to the "Dienst Tourisme". They'll give go a map with some really nice bikeroutes.

This is another site.
http://www.visitgent.be/eCache/VGG/3/114.dmdfbGFuZz1FTg.html

[indysteel]

If you want to cycle outside of Bruges maybe ride to Damme (wich is beautiful!!!!). http://www.damme-online.com/gb.htm

If you cycle in and around Gent, go to Sint-Martens-Latem/Deurne/De Pinte. Very nice too. For the exact route you can go to the "Dienst Tourisme". They'll give go a map with some really nice bikeroutes.

This is another site.
http://www.visitgent.be/eCache/VGG/3/114.dmdfbGFuZz1FTg.html

Wonderful! Thank you! Damme was already on my radar assuming we stayed in Bruges, but I was hoping we might be able to ride directly from Gent now that we're staying there. Maybe we'll have time to do both!

We're both so excited. What a bummer we have to wait until May. We do have our wedding (well, elopment) to look forward to next month though!!!!

[indysteel]

I've been meaning to post an update to this post. My DH and I ended up staying, as I indicated we might, in Brussels for one night and Gent for three. Our day in Brussels didn't go so well. Brian wasn't feeling well (he ended up being diagnosed two days later w/ a sinus infection) and it was extremely rainy and cold. We just lost our Mojo for the day, so we didn't really enjoy ourselves--but I can't say that was Brussels' fault.

From there, we took the train to Gent and immediately fell in love with the city. It was, as Papaver said, very vibrant and gorgeous. We stayed at a centrally located B&B called Simon Says. It's owned by two young Brits and has a cafe/restaurant on the ground floor. We loved it. Our room was huge (even by American standards) and comfortable. The bed was divine. Breakfast was in the cafe and was quite generous. The owners were so lovely. They helped us out in so many ways, in particular, by booking Brian an appt. at a clinic on a national holiday and then finding a pharmacist that was open. I'd stay there again in a heartbeat.

We mostly just roamed around Gent. Brian felt okay one day, horrible the next, so his energy wasn't good. On the third day, we went to Bruges. It was swamped with tourists, and it wasn't too our likely. I'm sure it was lovely, but it was hard to see anything. We ended up renting bikes and traveling to Dammes, where we spent the better part of the day. It was the nicest day we had on the entire trip weatherwise, so it was just lovely in Dammes.

The people we met in Flanders were just wonderfully friendly. I'll admit that after six day of speaking fractured French in Paris, I was happy to encounter so many people in Flanders who speak English. It made the last few days a bit easier. We'd both go back to Belgium in a heartbeat.

Oh, and we're both addicted to Speculoos spread (the crunchy version). OMG; that stuff is yummy.

[Possegal]

I'm glad for this thread - I'm working on a Rotterdam, Brussels, Paris trip right now and all that is left is the plan between cities/countries. You are all re-affirming my "I'd rather take the train" attitude. And any and all links directing me for that is just icing on the cake. :)