WWTEPD??- aka What Would TE Peeps Do

[Running Mommy]

Hi fellow TE'rs.
I need a bit of advice here as I am very conflicted. Hopefully I can write this without drifting into "but I digress" territory.. I shall try..
First, ya'll know I am a bike shop owner, so when I look at this issue I am looking at it from a PR stance.
Here we go..
There is a large local saturday am ride that has been around for years. This is a classic old school Saturday hammerfest, with very classic roadie "attitudes". - Trying not to pigeon hole, but historically there has been a stereotype that lets just say many road riders (seems to be prevalent with men) have fallen into. Type A personality, narcisistic, very much a gear head and seems to have the attitude that everyone and what they ride are less cool than they are. They may or may not be cat 1 riders, but they have an ego bigger than many pro riders. I think you know where I'm at..
Anyway, this ride is very aggresive, they have an A and B group, and the A group I believe averages well over 23mph over 60-80 miles. Yes, these guys are fast, and they know it.
The ride has become very popular over the years, as the roads on this side of the valley are a bit quieter.
As popularity grew- so did the numbers. I believe they average 40+ riders on any given saturday morning ride.
We as a shop are not affiliated with this ride in any way. Our team manager offered to give the group a bit of a bump if they came to us, but we were rebuffed. And actually I was relieved. As much as "any business is good business" should be my mantra in this economy, some business is just not worth it. We have no ill will towards the riders, leader, or anyone affiliated with the group, and some have naturally gravitated to us. Luckily they have proven to be cool for the most part. Tho they do have a bit of entitlement about them.
Here is my issue...
Over the last year + my staff and I have all ran into the ride while on our bikes or in the car, and have taken note of their lack of road manners.
They blow through intersections in our neighborhood, regardless of the fact that there are cars IN the intersection and at the 4 way stop. They are generally in a pace line, but often are spread 3-4 across and roundly ignore "cars back". We have nice wide bike lanes. The roads here are pretty new, and have some debris, but not horrible. They could move over a bit and fall in line 2- 3 abreast and the car would be able to safely pass w/ a 3 foot buffer.

Basically they are everything drivers complain about. It is so frustrating.
I am "friends" (she lives near me, but we are not close. Just both do tri's) with one of the riders in the group. Awhile back I emailed her and told her that I witnessed a horrendous lack of respect for the laws of the road, and that people in our neighborhood are complaining to me. She pretty much blew me off with a "yeah, I know. We stop at signals and stop signs sometimes, but we are bad about it. It's hard with such a large group"..
Helloo????!
A couple of months ago I came across a post on our community forum titled "a letter to the ENTITLED Cyclists" where the guy let loose on how much he hates cyclists, which in turn incited others to suggest violence (ala fb). Posts said things like how they try to get close to us and scare us, They come behind us and lay on the horn, just horrible stuff. Shocking. I of course responded, but I did not defend the group. How could I? Why would I?

Fast forward to Saturday... I had to drive running hubby to the shop, and was on my way home when I ran into the group on their run up to our neighborhood. They were on a very new road that does not have a large bike lane. There was a car about 30 seconds ahead of me. I watched as they completely ignored him. He went very wide into the other lane to pass, and one of the riders swung out to move forward almost hitting the car. He then flipped off the driver as if it was HIS fault.
I thought to myself "nice!".
So I slowly approached. I had an oncoming car so I could not move into the oncoming lane. The riders did not even turn their heads an inch. My van is very loud as I am a poor LBS owner and it needs a tune up. Even with wind in your ears, you would hear it. They were now all the way across the road in a scattered formation and were darting here and there. They were warming up, so speed was still prolly around 15-18 mph. When I could finally pass I had to cross a double yellow line and move all the way over so I was hugging the bike lane line on the opposite side!
At this point I was furious. This group is ruining it for the rest of us here in the valley. I hear it from folks up here all the time how I need to "tell my racer friends to stay in the bike lane and obey the traffic laws or get off the roads"...
Sigh...
So here is my question.
Would you try to contact the ride leader and reason with him? Would you risk having a group trash talk you and your business because you stood for what you thought was right?
Or would you handle it some other way?
I'm at a loss. But I feel like SOMETHING needs to be done??
Ideas? Advice?
Thanks ladies (and mr silver, sr?? etc..)

[Running Mommy]

Here is a cut and paste of the community forum rant I was talking about. It's a private forum, so cant paste link..

OP:
What is your deal?? You've got your own stinking lane. Get your spandex-but back into it. I don't care if you want to chat with your partner. You are going 15mph. I am going 45mph. Not cool.

I just get the feeling you think you're better than me, that you're saving the environment or whatever. Just get out of my way. /rant

response 1:

That’s BUTT man... LOL...

On another note, AMEN to that one!!! I am starting to be just as inconsiderate and don’t move over. You know my big truck and driving by them when my mirror almost smacks them in the back of the noggin... Sure I get the finger and yelling but hey, learn to ride your fricken bicycle or you’re going to eventually get ran over!

I wonder, since they are supposed to adhere to motorist laws. If one was to swerve into my lane striking my vehicle could they be given a ticket for improper control of their bicycle? Surely a car can’t drive the center of two lanes so what are they thinking?

Any bicyclists are welcome to chime in!?!?!?!

Resonse Two:
If I were a police officer I would ticket bicyclists very often. Last night one weaved out of his lane to chat with his buddy. I had to swerve, and the truck I almost hit had to swerve.

SINGLE FILE!!!

Response Three:

I have yet to see any of them actually stop at a stop sign.

Response Four:

Yeah I was stopped at Elliot heading down the hill started to leave the stop sign and 3 cyclist flew right in front of me and starred at me as if I were the one running the stop sign.

RULES!!!

Response Five:

Maybe if one or more of them "buys the farm" the rest will get the hint.

Response Six:

I sure hope not. The police need to crack down on these guys for their own safety. Even when they stay in their lane, when they weave back and forth, I have to hit the brakes to make sure they don't screw up.

1. Tell any police that you know that this is a problem.

2. When you see moronic behavior, lay on the horn for a few seconds. Let them know that you're not impressed while maintaining safety. It's tempting to get really close to them to scare them, but it's dangerous. It's okay to let them know you're outright PO'd. If enough people are honking, they'll get the idea.

And finally MY response: (go fihgure it is the longest)


Posted November 11, 2009 07:37 PM Hide Post
I own a bike shop. Damn skippy I'll chime in.
I get frustrated by a lot of the cyclists that come up to ride in our area as well. They blast through the stop sign at elliot, and ride in a large mass as if they own the road.
BUT
Not all of us are scoflaws. And the tone of this thread is uncalled for.
There are just as many BAD drivers, who FWIW swerve into the bike lanes all the time!!!
I commute to work by bike occasionally and I hate riding down the parkway as I'm buzzed the entire time. And I really love when I see them on their phone and they swerve into the lane just a few feet in front of me.

I am aware of the riders who ignore the stop signs, and ride two abreast, but that is not me- or the people I ride with. I have even talked to a few members of a local club about bonehead things I've seen.
The swerving? I don't know? The only person I ever had swerve into me like that was a guy I call "Darwin" because someday he will see his demise by his stupid behavior. He rides with an old style radio walkman that covers his entire ear, and swerves randomly without looking for traffic.
But to actually encourage the agressive behavior that you have?? Well, it's criminal. And actually there are a lot of of GY officers that ride so I would LOVE for them to weigh in.

And should I even go into the people that park in the bike lane by the high school on saturday because they are too lazy to park in the big lot and walk to the far soccer field???

I find it sad that in a car people seem so aggressive, but the same people would probably never treat another person the same way in a social situation.
Please do not spew hate on all cyclists. For most of us are good people who are not out to ruin your driving experience.In fact I may be your neighbor that you wave to every morning. Would you want to hit me because I ride a bike??
Just as there are self entitled drivers, there are self entitled cyclists.
Probably one in the same.
PLEASE drive safely, as I promise to ride safely

next response:

Thank you Tony. I am glad that you joined the admittedly one-sided conversation.

I agree about the bad drivers, which is why on the rare occasion that I ride I am extremely cautious. For me, the fear of hitting one of these guys turns into anger at their flippancy. It's not that people "hate" bicyclists. But in the words of Yoda, "Fear leads to anger..."

I don't feel that laying on the horn is aggressive. To me it's the least aggressive response -- because there needs to be a response.


Last response: (topic was locked by moderator)

Tony your probably one of the ones I respect and actually change lanes for!

It's the other idiots that need a good lesson in bicycle safety!

[crazycanuck]

Denise...the issues are the same round the planet & have similar riders down our way...Hence why I ride on my own :rolleyes:

I dunno if i'd bother talking to the group leader as it seems like a waste of energy. If they have their heads up thier royal behinds as far as they do, I doubt they'll pull them out just for you...??? (Hate to say it dear but you're in the US where guns are way way way too common in settling scores...)

People are going to drive or cycle the way they want & until people get it through thier thick little heads that the change happens in thier own little world first..they won't.

I dunno Denise, it's cool that you want to help the group in order to improve people's perceptions of cyclists but how long will it take? Is it worth the time?

Let me ponder some more...

[owlice]

Complain to the police and encourage others to do the same. The cyclists who are breaking the law should be ticketed, just as drivers who break the law should be ticketed.

These cyclists can't have it both ways: claiming to be traffic, then ignoring traffic laws.

Other than that, organizing other cyclists to picket the route when these yutzes are riding might at least let other people know that not everyone on a bike is a yutz.

(Sounds like a group of riders the mayor of DC would be very comfortable with.... :D )

[Kiwi Stoker]

If the bunch is not part of a formal club and are a "turn at at XYZ at 6am and ride" then I think there's no point.

Basically there is probably NO ride leader as such. I belong to one of these ad-hoc bunches (but it sure doesn't ride that way) and sure there's a core group of people who normally say "let's go" etc but that's it. There's no come back or authority or anything.

However if they are a club that's different. As a club commitee member I know how hard it is to control/guide the faster riders. It's all rip, sh*t and bust there but you can have gentle reminders, a briefing before the ride etc. And of course in an extreme cases, cancellation of membership for the worst offenders.

Maybe instead of trying to tell off the bad riders you need to create something that rewards the good ones eg. an annual prize for the person who shows the safest attitude riding on the road. You could get some PR out of this by going to your local authority road safety and offer to support and run this and then get the media involved and have the public nominate- something like that, so showing that YOUR shop is all for positive riding and that YOU care about safety and other road users and in no way can be tarred with the bad cyclist brush.

And forget about the others-it's not worth it.

[lph]

Hmmmm. Much as I appreciate your desire to "fix" things, you're in a slightly tricky position as an owner of a shop. Many of these riders may just be "going with the flow" - people can do the dumbest things in groups - and alienating them by taking a hardcore stance against the group in particular may just be losing you customers. You're under no obligation to fix the situation, even though people associate you with these "racer friends", no more than a car shop has an obligation to regulate driving habits in your town.

But also as a bike shop owner you have a bit more clout than the average cyclist. You can take a stand on your own views on road riding by, I dunno, prominently displaying stickers, posters, books, T-shirts etc., your own friendly leaflets encouraging all riders to follow basic rules? whatever. I think the most constructive solution is a live-and-let-live approach - let them do their own thing (and take the consequences) while you promote your own views as calmly and clearly as possible. You are in a way representing "all cyclists", while they are just a random group, no matter how drivers like to lump them together.

If you really want to try to change their riding habits, you'll have to ensure you get in touch with someone who a) actually has a leader role and b) is open to dialogue. If you can find that person, you could lay it out saying "see, we have this problem because we're being associated with your riding habits, which we don't really approve of." They have enough "enemies" who just don't like them, they need to see how their actions are detrimental to their "friends", if you get my drift.

[kenyonchris]

Contact the community resource officer in your police department and have him meet with the group to address the problem. It shouldn't be a voluntary meeting, have the officer show up where to ride meets and tell the group in no uncertain terms of how the cow is going to eat the cabbage. Weekend mornings are slow in most small to medium sized towns. Let the group know that officers are going to stop the group should violations be observed and the riders ticketed. End of story. No warnings. If your city has a bike unit, you might talk to the head of the bike unit as well. But it doesn't need to be a feel good meeting...a stern warning about what IS going to happen. I bet the PD would like to know when and where this ride begins because more than likely they have gotten complaints about it.

[Running Mommy]

You know I think you ladies are right.. I shall just let it be. And I appreciated the point about car repair shops not being able to "police" bad drivers. That gave me a fresh look, and that's exactly what I needed! Once again, my TE friends have come through with sage advice just as requested.

I am however going to call the police non emergency line and request that they have an officer at the 4 way stop on saturday morning. The ride is very predicatable route and time wise.
This is an organized group, and they even have a name for themselves, though I would not go as far as to call them a club.
My neighbor (not a cyclist) had a novel solution of sorts..
She suggested that I go out and buy the brightest neon poster boards I can find,and place signs with "gentle reminders" along their route (yes they follow the same route weekly).
She suggested the first one they would encounter to say
"Good Morning Cyclists. Have a safe Ride, and please follow traffic laws" in BIG bold letters.
and then to post "WARNING CYCLISTS Stop sign ahead, please slow and prepare to stop"
another one "CYCLISTS narrow road ahead, please ride single file"
etc..
She even suggested a "Thank You cyclists for visiting our community. Please ride safely so we can see you again next weekend."
Her suggestion was to not tell anyone about it, and just be the stealthy sign lady out posting signs in the dark of night. :p

I prolly won't do that, but I have to say it is a novel idea.

[bmccasland]

Running Mommy -
Maybe a talk from the local Sheriff's Department's finest to the group? Does MCSO have a community liason officer? I can't remember it's been a while since I lived there and worked with them (I played with the Lake Patrol crew). Maybe talk to them.

The bike club is not above the law. We've had one of the county Sheriff's Department out in force on our MS training rides - to strictly enforce the law both ways. They pull cars over for not respecting us, and pull bikes over for unsafe antics (blowing red lights, riding 4 abreast).

If anything happened to the riders, car/bike accident, I know they'd be howling loudly, but they have a responsibility to ride safely too. When it comes down to mass, they'll loose.

[Melalvai]

Our city's bicycle advocacy group recently held a cyclists' round table discussion. It was a little bit elite: they had specific invitations for bike clubs, bike shops, police, city officials, and then a restricted number of (free) tickets for the general public.

One of the things they did was come up with a Cyclists' Code of Conduct.

After the bike ed classes had some harassment from some cops, they got the entire police force on board. All the police took the bike ed course, and the police started Operation Share the Road. During the month of October they specifically targeted cyclists who ran stop lights and stop signs, wrong way cyclists, and biking at night without lights.

That was great for PR--anyone griping about cyclists getting away with whatever they want could be countered with "Look at Operation Share the Road. ## of tickets issues for no stop, ## tickets issued for wrong way, ## lights given away" (the cyclists at night without lights had a choice: allow the bicycle advocacy folks to install free lights right then & there, or get a ticket).

I don't know that it has solved everything. The recent surge in cycling & cycling facilities as a result of the $22 million alternative transportation grant has caused some backlash to be sure. Our pro-cycling mayor is retiring after 16 years, and a bunch of folks are jumping in the race on an anti-cycling platform. Every article in the newspaper about bike/ped is met with inflammatory comments. Some cyclists are reporting more harassment on the road (I'm experiencing less, personally). Operation Share the Road and the Round Table Meeting were launched to combat that.

I guess my specific suggestion is get involved in the local bicycle advocacy group, or start one up if there isn't one. These things our advocacy group did, or other groups have done, can be ideas for your group. (Google GetAbout Columbia for more details on those programs.) Take your stand firmly on the side of vehicular cycling: cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles.

I find it very frustrating to be lumped in with the idiot cyclists too. I hear a lot about those racers, and I always counter with "That's not me. You won't catch me running a stop sign." And I follow through with that--even if there is no traffic anywhere, I stop at the darn stop sign, because I had a "friend" say "Hey, I saw you not really stop at that stop sign" (I put my foot down but didn't come to a complete stop).

Good luck!

[Mr. SR500]

If you know a police officer, let him know the meeting place and time, and he could roll by and give them a little pre-ride info on complaints and rules for cyclist. Anyone in your group know the ride leader? Might be worth a chance to try and connect with him.

[azfiddle]

I do like that last suggestion very much- though it would definitely be more effective if your police liason happened to show up at the intersections at the same time- for a few weeks in a row!

Off-topic, but I would like to know if you're having your shop ride on Sunday, my DH and I might be coming up to Phoenix for other reasons and might try to make it. You've made it sound so fun, and there isn't anything posted on the website yet.

[Zen]

Would you try to contact the ride leader and reason with him? Would you risk having a group trash talk you and your business because you stood for what you thought was right?


Yes and yes. Do you think their opinion would hurt business?
That type of behavior does no one any good. One of those riders is going to be injured and possibly killed if that continues.

[sarahspins]

I had a "friend" say "Hey, I saw you not really stop at that stop sign" (I put my foot down but didn't come to a complete stop).

Not that it really makes it okay, but that's better than many motorists do... many around here seem to barely slow down. There's one particular intersection near me that makes me nervous because there is only a stop sign one direction and it used to be a yield, and many people still treat it as such - and I am convinced most don't even bother looking for oncoming traffic before blowing through (which is a large part of why it's a stop now, and not just a yield, and even though it was changed about 2 years ago, people still don't seem to notice).

It's a frustrating issue.. and I think you may need to separate from being a shop owner to just being a concerned cyclist... it's not exactly as if your concerns are different based on owning a shop, and I don't think that should really play a part in confronting them about this issue, unless it were from an advocacy standpoint whereby you could use the shop to help promote safer cycling and awareness of recognition cycling laws.. because while I don't know what the cycling laws are for AZ, I'd be really surprised if there aren't a few being broken.

It may be pessimistic, but I have a feeling these guys probably won't take the whole issue too seriously until someone from their group does get hurt - a lot of people who act as if they are above the law have a bit of a "that won't happen to me" complex.

[Biciclista]

i really like the idea about calling the police. It's one thing to go through a stop sign when there is not a car in sight, but to take up the whole road and not yield the right of way (I've ridding in your area, I know how wide those rodes are) is just plain ignorant AND illegal. Give a few of them traffic fines.. that will help them learn some manners.

[indysteel]

Running Mommy,

We battle the same thing in my local cycling community. We have nightly "training" rides that sound very much like the ride you're complaining about except that it happens 5 times a week. I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with you speaking to the group as a "concerned cyclist," but from my experience, it won't change behavior. Our local group has dealt with the police any number of times, got run down by an angry motorist/homeowner (she ran her car into the group) and had a fatality last year (there was wheel contact in the middle of the pack and a massive pileup) and NONE of that has changed behavior. There might be a short "cooling off" period, but they ultimately revert back to their old ways. I'm sure there are individual cyclists have chosen to forego the ride because of all or some of this, but the group itself remains just as reckless. I'm not sure what it's going to take for them to change.

So, with that in mind, if you feel like you have more to lose than you have to gain, then I'd keep quiet or have the police intervene anonymously.

Good luck!

[OakLeaf]

Is there another group in your area that can take the initiative, so that you don't have to risk losing business by being the public face of the complaints? As others have suggested, a bicycle resource officer at the PD? A more recreational cycling club? A transportation coordinator or committee?

I think there is a chance that you may have a lot of positive feedback in the cycling community to offset the negative - but I sure understand not wanting to take the risk, too.

[shootingstar]

The ride group that indysteel describes and their muleheadness probably is an indicator that things don't change even after various incidents.

Having the police made aware of the ride day, locations points for checkpoints might be useful.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I agree, get the local police involved, and explain your tricky position to them.
Perhaps the police will simply label you as a concerned citizen.
This group is putting people's lives in danger- their own and others' lives too. the police need to force them to obey traffic safety laws.

[smilingcat]

Contact the community resource officer in your police department and have him meet with the group to address the problem. It shouldn't be a voluntary meeting, have the officer show up where to ride meets and tell the group in no uncertain terms of how the cow is going to eat the cabbage. Weekend mornings are slow in most small to medium sized towns. Let the group know that officers are going to stop the group should violations be observed and the riders ticketed. End of story. No warnings. If your city has a bike unit, you might talk to the head of the bike unit as well. But it doesn't need to be a feel good meeting...a stern warning about what IS going to happen. I bet the PD would like to know when and where this ride begins because more than likely they have gotten complaints about it.

++1 and more!!

One thing I've learned about guys like these are that the only thing they understand is a $200 tickets. Have the police give them a stern warning at the meeing place. Then have other officers wait for them at few of the stop signs.

All it takes is one bad apple in a bushel... in this case its far more than one. There is no excuse for deliberately swerving toward the passing car and flipping off the driver.

And Denise,

I don't think you should be spray painting messages on the road. I believe that is a violation. AND I WOULD CALL THE POLICE ANNONYMOUSLY (if possible) TO AVOID REPERCUSSION FROM THE BAD BOYS. (oh Denise said poster boards not spraying painting the message on the road. BAD ME.)

Obnoxious and ill mannered riders like these boys really infurriate me.

[SadieKate]

I don't think you should be spray painting messages on the road. I believe that is a violation. AND I WOULD CALL THE POLICE ANNONYMOUSLY (if possible) TO AVOID REPERCUSSION FROM THE BAD BOYS.Where's the suggestion to spray paint on the road?

Just get the community PD office to help. They may have to do it several times, but I'm sure they'd rather start now than after something more serious.

[WindingRoad]

Indy

I am all too familiar with the group you are referring, I fortunately had other obligations the night of the fatality and was not there. I quit going shortly after that incident. It's like they were a little more careful but then there were these hothead guys that just kept being idiots. I seriously get so annoyed by the testosterone floating around at some of those rides, makes me want to put my frame pump in their spokes:mad:

ALL

I have often wondered if some of the stupidity of these groups is stemming from a lack of guidance of new riders by older or more experienced riders? I was lucky when I started riding and found some good people to ride with and learn from but it doesn't seem like that is always the case? However I didn't learn much about etiquette and rules of the road until I started commuting hard core so I think a lot of this gets overlooked by the local clubs/groups. I suppose my view is that we need to start having more classes on etiquette and the laws. I like the idea of a code of conduct too.

[Fredwina]

It hard, as we've got some of same problems.
I'll agree with windingroad's comments - I was midly surprised that a lot of our riders don't know how to softpedal:confused:
Doing a hammerfest ride in urban environment has it's problems The goal of hanging with the group is hard when you have lights every half mile and no one wants to regroup, plus the mentoring is more aimed towards race training than touring
LE crackdowns - i'm not sure that will help outside of confisticating bikes. We've had the police call us, but....
Right now, i'm doing my own ride and joining up for coffee hour. besides some floks don't like my cool bike

[bmccasland]

Yeah, but Arizona does have the advantage of long wide open roads, if one is willing to drive about 15 minutes more beyond the urban limits. So the hammerfest gang could drive a bit further for their start and not have the urban issues.

[Loraura]

If it is a legal issue, then call the legal athorities (cops) so they can do their job and enforce laws. There is a reason we pay cops. I never try to do their jobs. I have my own, and I'm not equipped or trained to do theirs.

If it is a moral issue... you're SOL. No way you can enforce morals on others. They will trash talk you for trying.

Frankly, I doubt much less than expensive tickets will change their behavior, and even then, probably not for long. I would guess that they are more concerned with their ave MPH than ANYthing else at that point. Not getting dropped being paramount. If you stop, you get dropped by those who don't.

If they got tickets, the ride leaders MIGHT start putting forth a larger effort to obey traffic laws.

I absolutely would not put my lively hood at risk trying to get ashholes to stop being asshholes. That's a loosing battle.

[Melalvai]

It might be hopeless that that particular group will ever change its behavior, but I heard a story about a cycling group up here.

A guy took the bike ed class. Next time he was riding with his club, he told them he was going to stop at the stop sign. Stop sign came up--he stopped--they blew past him.

To his surprise, at the top of the next hill they waited for him to catch up.

Next stop sign--every one of them stopped.

I think some of them might be inclined to stop, but won't do it themselves because it will look uncool. If they see someone else do it, and they follow suit, the 1st guy to do it is the uncool one.

[azfiddle]

I have a picture that my DH took showing the Team Radio Shack riders stopping at a stop sign before starting up Mt. Lemmon last month....

[shootingstar]

A guy took the bike ed class. Next time he was riding with his club, he told them he was going to stop at the stop sign. Stop sign came up--he stopped--they blew past him.

To his surprise, at the top of the next hill they waited for him to catch up.

Next stop sign--every one of them stopped.

I think some of them might be inclined to stop, but won't do it themselves because it will look uncool. If they see someone else do it, and they follow suit, the 1st guy to do it is the uncool one.

Wonder what a bunch of competent female cyclists would do if one of them stopped, etc. like the above story.

Anyway, interesting example.

[spokewench]

Ooh boy, I would stay away from trying to interfere with that ride. We have a ride like that up here too; basically, it is the only community ride available - saturday morning -

Of course, there are people within that ride that would like to change the dynamic, but they are not strong enough to do so. I always believed that the "boys" cause they are "Boys", not ladies nor men, have the attitude they can do anything they want to. They will not listen to you; trust me, I tried here in our community and it was a joke. They just get worse!

I even tried to start another ride, a B ride, so there would be an opportunity for other than the fastest and elitist riders to ride on. They accused me of trying to steal their ride, that I had no right to do anything about what was offered in the community. (Of course, their thinking was flawed, because I am a part of the cycling community and at one time could even hang for a lot of the ride when I was younger and faster if I wanted to). They are not rational and they are not ready to listen to logic; so I guarantee to you, it will not help for you to confront them about their behavior. I have the experience to prove it!

spoke

[featuretile]

I'm really glad that my local bike club is really into safety. They even sponsor beginner bike classes that teach correct road rules. I feel much safer riding with the group because motorists realize that there are bikes around. 'A' rides are easy, 'B' medium, 'C' hard. I don't see too much of the C riders. There aren't alot of A rides, because most of the group are B and above. Most of the riders are older. I'm trying to work up to the B rides. The only time people ride 2 abreast are on relatively empty country roads. Stop at every stop light, and at least slow down at stop signs. Everyone yells car back and gets over to the right side of the road. Uses hand signals for all turns.

The riders that seem dangerous here are the ones riding alone that never learned anything and are riding on the wrong side of the road.....

I don't even find the really good riders to be arrogant. Glad I live here. I would hate to be in your position (owning a bike shop) with the kind of riders around that give biking a bad name.

[michelem]

We have a similar ride here in town . . . sigh . . .

Below is a Sacramento Bee article on it (from last year). The leader of the group I ride with sent it (the article) to our group basically saying that this ride is not sanctioned by our group and we better not be caught displaying similar behavior.

As you'll read, the police even came out to lecture the group to no avail.

http://www.sacbee.com/296/story/1886121.html

HAS FOLSOM BIKE RIDE SPUN OUT OF CONTROL?

A pack of cyclists rolled out of the parking lot of the Folsom coffee shop just after 9 a.m. on a recent Saturday, primed for a 40-mile ride promising high speeds and burning lungs.

The so-called Coffee Republic ride began a decade ago as a weekly workout for a women's cycling club, but has transformed into one of the most popular and competitive race-training rides in the region, swelling to 80 or more on some Saturdays.

These days, it's the men leading the charge, for better or worse.

Residents and motorists mostly see the worse: cyclists roaring through stop signs, riding five abreast, crossing the center line, stopping traffic.

"That ride bums me out," said Eve Blumenfeld, who co-founded the ride a decade ago and still participates, albeit not up with the racers. "I love to ride fast. I just think you can do it with a little more respect to the motorists."

Such no-holds-barred rides packed with amateur racers are a national phenomenon, thanks to the popularity of the sport since Lance Armstrong rose to prominence in 1999.

In Tucson, Ariz., for instance, a decades-old weekly ride known as the "Shootout" has grown to nearly 200 cyclists, drawing occasional crackdowns by the Pima County Sheriff's Office.

Several of the large rides have triggered car-vs.-bike outbursts.

Last summer, a Los Angeles emergency room doctor was accused of road rage when he slammed the brakes of his car in front of two cyclists he had just passed near his Brentwood home. One of the riders flew through the back window, breaking his teeth and nearly severing his nose.

On the Folsom ride, cyclists report that a driver once put his pickup in reverse and threatened to ram riders. Motorists hurl debris, shout, even swerve toward them as they pass, they say.

Pack mentality?

These race-oriented rides are distinct from most recreational rides, where the pace is slower, the behavior usually more civil.

While pack mentality can be problematic in many social settings, cycling adds another layer of complexity: Drafting, or tucking behind other cyclists in a paceline to reduce wind resistance, enables inferior athletes to keep up with much faster ones, if only for a short time.

"Speed, pure speed," said Steve Ward, a 47-year-old novice racer, when asked to explain the allure of the Folsom ride, which starts and ends at the Coffee Republic cafe. "You can sit in somewhere around 15th position and do relatively little work and go very, very fast."

In recent weeks even Ward, a software developer, has skipped the large group ride to join eight to 10 others for a separate workout.

Rick Humphreys, a state geologist who has been racing so long he's known as "Retro Rick," stopped doing the Coffee Republic ride a couple of years ago, when the tone shifted.

"I don't want to be associated with a ride where people are breaking laws and upsetting lots of people," he said.

Given the flouting of traffic laws in Folsom and elsewhere, the makeup of participants may seem surprising: men and women in their 30s, 40s and 50s – doctors, lawyers, dentists, engineers, business owners and state workers – who can afford the $5,000-plus bikes seen in the Tour de France.

The competitive rides have allowed scores of middle-aged cyclists to get into such good shape they can trounce athletes in their 20s, but their growth spurt is fueling animosity toward cycling.

"Motorists disrespect us and cause tons of problems, but we're doing the same things to pedestrians," said Bob Mionske, a Portland, Ore.-based lawyer, Bicycling magazine columnist and former Olympic cyclist who specializes in bicycle law. "We are heading toward a bad place."

More close calls

Cyclists who have campaigned for years to get motorists to share the road find themselves having to apologize for the kind of riding no one can defend.

"There is a reason I don't do the Coffee Republic ride," said Michael Sayers, a longtime professional cyclist from Sacramento who retired last year. "I went out there one time and I absolutely refused to go back ... . I've told them they are going to ruin it for the rest of us."

Perhaps they already have.

A few weeks ago, a California Highway Patrol officer showed up at the coffee shop to urge riders to reform their ways, citing numerous citizen complaints.

Sgt. Gordon Canham of the Auburn CHP office noted that bikes are subject to the same traffic laws as motorists and would pay the same fines if cited. Running a red light, for example, costs upward of $350.

Did the rogue riding tone down? Not if a recent Saturday ride was any indication, when a car driven by a Bee reporter trailed the group.

In the first minute, a rider pedaled down the middle of the street, refusing to move to his right. In less than five minutes, several cyclists crossing Oak Avenue pulled in front of the The Bee's car, forcing two more cars to stop.

Ten minutes later, the entire group crossed four-lane Douglas Boulevard, bringing cars approaching at 45 mph – in both directions – to a sudden halt.

"I've never seen it so dangerous as it has been," Blumenfeld would comment later. "I've seen more close calls than ever."

The riders headed to Itchy Acres, a neighborhood with narrow roads and no sidewalks. One amateur racer, 52-year-old Tracy Muegge, had recently urged riders to slow the pace through Itchy Acres – but to no avail.

On this Saturday, Matt Obregon, a college student and part-time racer, ramped up the speed and shot ahead.

The race was on.

Three dozen others gave chase, barreling through a stop sign before nearly forcing a man and his dog into a ditch. The cyclists blanketed the lane and a few moved across the center line to improve their position in the pack.

It would have been impossible for a car to get past.

Unwritten rules of the road

Typically, well-behaved groups will call out, "Car back," and slide to the right. Not here.

In cycling circles, behavior and style often are summed up in terms of being "pro" or "not pro." When told of the scene through Itchy Acres, Sayers scoffed and said, "That is absolutely not 'pro.'

"What a lot of riders have lost touch with is these group rides are not racing. They're training. There is a place to go fast and a place not to. You just don't do that in congested areas."

At the professional level, the pack or "peleton" is a marvel of unwritten rules based on tradition and is almost entirely self-policing, with unofficial leaders and enforcers who crack down on those who fall out of line.

When asked about his ride, Obregon, 20, a pre-law major at California State University, Sacramento, initially denied he had run stop signs, asking, "Do you have video of me, or something?"

He later conceded the ride may have gotten out of hand but said the group had a mind of its own.

"I'm just a student. I'm a realistic person. No one listens to anyone," Obregon said. "They're Type A people and they all have good jobs."

The us-first pack mentality evident in Folsom can encourage people to behave differently than when they ride alone, according to John Meyer, a Sacramento clinical psychologist who specializes in sports psychology. A former college basketball player, Meyer also is a cyclist.

"There is something about being part of a group, the anonymity of that," he said. "It's funny what that unleashes."

"When we get a paceline going, there is something adrenaline-making about that, where as a group you go by the slower riders... . You're riding by on a cool bike in a cool group 12 inches from the tire in front of you. It gives you an identity and it does kind of kick up that 'us-vs.-them.' "

Being in a group also allows some to dominate their surroundings as they ignore rules, according to Rich Maile, 45, a local bike mechanic and racer who competes nationally.

"One of the things I see is just general lack of courtesy," Maile said. "The (Coffee Republic) group has swelled ... . Forty to 60 cyclists feel they have more of a right of way than a couple of motorists."


'Totally self-centered'

During the recent ride, the cyclists came upon Vince Martinez and his dog without warning, blowing past at close range.

"There are kids in strollers out here," said Martinez, 48. "I know these guys want to go fast and that's great. But this just isn't the place for that."

Later, on busy Sierra College Boulevard, the riders kept mostly to the bike lane. But as a downhill approached, a man and a woman on a tandem swung out wide and accelerated, forcing a car to swerve.

Meyer says that kind of behavior probably is not limited to their bike riding.

"There's a fair number of them that would look and conduct themselves in much the same way in their life in general," said Meyer. "That guy that is totally self-centered on his bike ... you might see a toned-down version of that in his personal life or in the workplace."

Several cyclists say rides like the Coffee Republic will not change until someone is seriously hurt or law enforcement issues tickets.

Short of that, Meyer says, the behavior likely will go unchecked unless the cyclists look within because, he said, "The first step is awareness."

Blumenfeld, who dreamed up the Coffee Republic ride with a friend a decade ago, isn't hopeful.

"It's cool that it got so big, but it's sad that it has become a rebellious ride," she said. "The thing that bothers me most is the attitude. It's a recipe for disaster that doesn't have to happen."

[SadieKate]

The so-called Coffee Republic ride began a decade ago as a weekly workout for a women's cycling club, but has transformed into one of the most popular and competitive race-training rides in the region, swelling to 80 or more on some Saturdays.

. . . . . .

"That ride bums me out," said Eve Blumenfeld, who co-founded the ride a decade ago and still participates, albeit not up with the racers. "I love to ride fast. I just think you can do it with a little more respect to the motorists."I know former members of the club she founded. They left over the club's poor attitude of which this article is only one example. And I've also finished organized rides where I and all of my friends have independently had run-ins with their dangerous behavior.

[WindingRoad]

Wow that was a really great article. It's too bad things have to get to this point. It's strange though I do notice on our 'vigilante' ride here in Indy a lot of the people are doctors, lawyers etc. Maybe they think they are more entitled because they make a lot of money or something?!?! I hate making the choice to drive somewhere to do my training rides but like the one mentioned in the article ours has been ruined too by this idiotic behavior.

[smilingcat]

You've got to have lots of hutzpa and big ego to be a: neuro-surgeon, heart specialists... That is what was told to me by my father who was an anethesiologists. They too have big egos. My father relished in the fact that he can take some one "this" close to OD/death and still keep the patient alive for the general. No room for error as he puts it. Heart surgeons are the same way... or do you have the nerve to stick a needle into someone's brain...

To be a good litigator (lawyer) you really have to have a big ego... cause he's gonna flatten his opponent no matter what. That's hutzpa.

So no, I'm not suprised by the behavior on the bike. Unfortunately, it ruins for the rest of us and puts us in harms way. I don't ride in a group. maybe in a fun ride.

[OakLeaf]

All true, but I don't think all or even most of the participants in those type of rides are professionals of that sort.

IMO it's pack behavior, no more, no less. Get enough people together, get the adrenaline and testosterone flowing (yes in the women too) which happens any time you have a competitive athletic group, and the pack mentality takes over. Those who are not a member of our pack are undeserving of consideration. Those who are not a member of any pack, less.

[bmccasland]

I can't believe the gall of the "coffee republic" riders. Seems like a ticket writing opportunity to me.

I guess getting your thrill riding sanction rides isn't good enough? Yeah, it's fun blasting through red lights - and I say "thank you" to the police officer waving me through on passing too. :D:cool:

[Thorn]

Pack/herd/mob mentality. Large numbers of people in a group stop behaving rationally.

I've read this thread with interest. In our area there are two local bike clubs. Both do cue sheet rides on the weekend; both attract 10-40 people on a ride. In the past I stopped riding with one because they had gotten into the herd mentality with a lot of Type A's. For two years I rode with the other group that is slower and made up of Type B personalities.

Last year both groups changed. The Type A group stopped doing mass starts. Small groups of riders start together and there are "lunch" stop regroup points for chit chat. At the same time the Type B group moved to herd mentality. 20-30 riders in a pack (and doing a whopping 12-14mph). If motorists think a fast pack is rude, I can't imagine what they think when it dwaddles along.

Needless to say, I'm now riding with the former Type A group. We're all on the same route. You still have the camaraderie, but we stop at stoplights, Idaho stop (with proper yielding) at stop signs, and go single file in traffic. And, you know, it is still a lot of fun and I still find I can get pushed to ride a little faster.

I'm not sure what my point is, except that it is clear that groups can change. While I'd put money that the Type B group's morph into rude pack was just herd mentality, something had to have happened to change the Type A's behavior. Was it police? Was it internal? Don't know, but it is for the better. Rude riders can reform.

[Brandy]

As a business owner I'd probably stay out of it. Word of mouth in the bike shop biz is huge and one or two remarks from people seem to trickle down and could end up hurting your business.

[Geonz]

Rather than wait for fatalities, I think I would discreetly alert the authorities and suggest to others that they do so, too.

It's been noted by some that cyclists are highly unusual in that so many of them wish laws were better enforced on their kind. Ya don't see too many truckers wishing... or doctors... (won't bring bankers into it)

Our fast group... yea, there's ugly ego inflating that happens there and a need to trash others. Most of them have quit our club, since the club prez was in said group and wanted to abolish membership and the newsletter (that I wrote) and ... "nothing personal" ... but abolish the board positions of (wait for it) all the people who weren't type A riders. Because we didn't need that stuff, we would figureo ut how to do it online or something, and the club was too involved in things that weren't riding. (Oh, and one of them firmly believed that commuting by bicycle was just wrong.) Not sure where things will go, especially since I've said I don't want to be president after this year because it really is time to bring in new blood...

but your guys are endangering themselves and others... thelaw may not care... maybe a 'name witheld' letter to the editor...

[tulip]

In my former city, there were a big group of these type of a-holes, I mean, riders. They often wore their racing kits. I made it a point to never go to that shop, and to call them and tell them why. I have no idea if it had any impact, but if alot of people do that, then it might. Shops don't really want negative publicity.

So maybe that's a route you could go--have all the people you know call the sponsors and complain.

[Selkie]

In my former city, there were a big group of these type of a-holes, I mean, riders. They often wore their racing kits. I made it a point to never go to that shop, and to call them and tell them why. I have no idea if it had any impact, but if alot of people do that, then it might. Shops don't really want negative publicity.


Do tell, what shop (assume you mean DC)? I'll boycott it as well (pm me, if you don't feel comfortable posting the name).

[tulip]

Mickchick, it was a few years ago, and I hesitate to diss anyone now since I don't know if they have changed their ways.

But take note of the riders who do not ride responsibly and contact their club and sponsors. I've found that most of these guys love riding in their racing kits, so they are easy to spot.

My current bike club has nearly 1,000 members. The rides can be really huge-like 50-60 people sometimes. It's a policy of the club to break up those big groups into smaller sub-groups. It's so nice to ride with a club with responsible leadership. Peer pressure is a powerful thing, and can work both ways.

[VeloVT]

Here's what I would do if I owned a shop: I would not say a single word against the offending riders, or against any riders. However, I would start a visible *POSITIVE* campaign about responsible riding. I would put up posters in/outside the store (and maybe in public places that permit posting handbills). I would maybe print some bumperstickers. I would put some line about it in all of my advertising. I would try to get interviewed by the local paper... etc... If it were really important to me, I would harp on it so much that people who didn't know much about the shop would hear the name mentioned and say "oh, those are the 'safe cycling' people, aren't they?".

[salsabike]

Here's what I would do if I owned a shop: I would not say a single word against the offending riders, or against any riders. However, I would start a visible *POSITIVE* campaign about responsible riding. I would put up posters in/outside the store (and maybe in public places that permit posting handbills). I would maybe print some bumperstickers. I would put some line about it in all of my advertising. I would try to get interviewed by the local paper... etc... If it were really important to me, I would harp on it so much that people who didn't know much about the shop would hear the name mentioned and say "oh, those are the 'safe cycling' people, aren't they?".

What a really wonderful idea!

[Selkie]

Mickchick, it was a few years ago, and I hesitate to diss anyone now since I don't know if they have changed their ways.

.

I understand. It gets worse when these types of riders decide to do a hammer ride on the MUTs...

I think actually there is less courtesy/more of that sort of middle-aged-man-child attitude in NOVA's western suburbs, rather than inside the beltway. Just my impression. Haven't ridden in DC proper in awhile, though, and for the most part, Arlington/Falls Church riders have been courteous.