religious wars; bike lanes removed and repainted [Archive]

Biciclista

12-11-2009, 08:56 AM

Hipsters repaint bike lanes in brush off to Hasids

By JEREMY OLSHAN and JAMIE SCHRAM

Last Updated: 10:48 AM, December 9, 2009

Posted: 2:52 AM, December 8, 2009
Groups of bicycle-riding vigilantes have been repainting 14 blocks of Williamsburg roadways ever since the city sandblasted their bike lanes away last week at the request of the Hasidic community.
The Hasids, who have long had a huge enclave in the now-artist-haven neighborhood, had complained that the Bedford Avenue bike paths posed both a safety and religious hazard.
Scantily clad hipster cyclists attracted to the Brooklyn neighborhood made it difficult, the Hasids said, to obey religious laws forbidding them from staring at members of the opposite sex in various states of undress. These riders also were disobeying the traffic laws, they complained
Two cycling advocates were apprehended by the Shomrim Patrol, a Hasidic neighborhood watch group, as they repainted a section of bike lane at 3:30 a.m. yesterday, but when cops arrived, no one was arrested and no summonses were issued, police said.
"These people should apply for a job at the DOT," neighborhood activist Isaac Abraham said of the repainting. "You put it on, they take it off -- and they will probably do this again."
A Department of Transportation spokesman said: "We will continue to work with any community on ways we can make changes to our streets without compromising safety."
A source close to Mayor Bloomberg said removing the lanes was an effort to appease the Hasidic community just before last month's election.
Abraham contends the bike lanes put children at risk of getting hit by cars or bicycles as they exited school buses.
But Baruch Herzfeld, who has tried to bridge the gap between hipsters and Hasids with a bike-rental program, said safety is not the issue so much as xenophobia.
"They don't want the hipsters in their neighborhood," he said. "It's like in Howard Beach back in the day when they didn't want black people in the neighborhood."
The cycling advocacy group Transportation Alternatives has not taken sides in the dispute.
But bike lane or not, "cyclists have a right to be on Bedford Avenue," said Wiley Norvell, a group spokesman.

Additional reporting by Maggie Haberman and John Doyle

Groups of bicycle-riding vigilantes have been repainting 14 blocks of Williamsburg roadways ever since the city sandblasted their bike lanes away last week at the request of the Hasidic community.

The Hasids, who have long had a huge enclave in the now-artist-haven neighborhood, had complained that the Bedford Avenue bike paths posed both a safety and religious hazard.

Scantily clad hipster cyclists attracted to the Brooklyn neighborhood made it difficult, the Hasids said, to obey religious laws forbidding them from staring at members of the opposite sex in various states of undress. These riders also were disobeying the traffic laws, they complained

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/bike_war_paint_g7EizkFEZktV3IlNUJosQM#ixzz0ZOrUCJFE

shootingstar

12-11-2009, 09:15 AM

How unfortunate this matter has been dragging on for awhile. I don't agree how some hipsters/bike lane advocates simply painting bike lanes without the authority of the N.Y. Dept. of Transportation, is helpful for resolving the current conflict in near future.

PamNY

12-11-2009, 10:46 AM

Here's a more irreverent take on the situation from Heeb Magazine (http://www.heebmagazine.com/blog/view/2418):

If I had a clown outfit I might join in with the Time's Up festivities.

Pam

Biciclista

12-11-2009, 11:13 AM

can someone explain to this old lady what the heck is a hipster?? :confused:

Crankin

12-11-2009, 11:14 AM

This is too funny...
I love Heeb Magazine.
I don't love fundamentalists, even in my own religion.

Kalidurga

12-11-2009, 11:17 AM

can someone explain to this old lady what the heck is a hipster?? :confused:

Someone who is chronically hip. These days, that means riding a fixie and/or living in the Williamsburg neighborhood of Brooklyn.

ny biker

12-11-2009, 11:30 AM

Scantily clad hipster cyclists attracted to the Brooklyn neighborhood made it difficult, the Hasids said, to obey religious laws forbidding them from staring at members of the opposite sex in various states of undress. These riders also were disobeying the traffic laws, they complained

Um, yeah. If you're not allowed to stare at someone, then it's up to you to not stare. You can't legislate everyone else out of your view.

If they're disobeying laws, then enforce the laws.

Biciclista

12-11-2009, 11:30 AM

thank you Kali

Kalidurga

12-11-2009, 12:07 PM

Um, yeah. If you're not allowed to stare at someone, then it's up to you to not stare. You can't legislate everyone else out of your view.

If they're disobeying laws, then enforce the laws.

Y'know, there's always the chance that God sent those hipsters in various states of undress to Williamsburg as a test for the Hasids.

I know, I'm going to burn in hell for irreverence ;)

PamNY

12-11-2009, 12:15 PM

One thing I don't understand: would hipsters be any less scantily clad if they were walking?

Why exactly are the bike lanes a problem?

Perhaps I can find this out.

Pam

Trek420

12-11-2009, 02:21 PM

I know, I'm going to burn in hell for irreverence ;)

Good, then I'll see ya there! :p

Speaking as I do for us not terribly observent Jews I was under the impression that we do not believe in/have a He]] (unless perhaps you count Walmart) :rolleyes:

Tri Girl

12-11-2009, 02:30 PM

Um, yeah. If you're not allowed to stare at someone, then it's up to you to not stare. You can't legislate everyone else out of your view.

If they're disobeying laws, then enforce the laws.

++1

Eden

12-11-2009, 02:36 PM

Personally I'm not even sure they are using "hipster" the right way.....
If by scantily clad they are referring to the wearing of spandex whilst riding a bike, then its unlikely that its hipsters that they are seeing. Hipsters think spandex is rather uncool and would not usually be caught dead wearing it, well at least not where anyone can see - I did hear one guy confess to wearing cycling shorts under his uber cool hand converted thrift store wool pant knickers....

7rider

12-11-2009, 04:36 PM

HillSlugger

12-11-2009, 04:39 PM

Um, yeah. If you're not allowed to stare at someone, then it's up to you to not stare. You can't legislate everyone else out of your view.

It's this same thinking that has women in the middle east wearing burkahs so the men won't be tempted: if you can't control your own reaction, punish the target of your attention.

Zen

12-11-2009, 06:48 PM

Snobby's take from earlier this week-
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2009/12/measure-of-safety-all-you-cities.html

Onix

12-11-2009, 07:13 PM

Laughable.

Getting rid of bikelanes doesn't get rid of cyclists. It just makes riding on the street less safe.

Man, those cyclists must have been working really hard to FORCE people to look at them... ;)

shootingstar

12-11-2009, 08:00 PM

Perhaps it may only truly a few vocal folks within the Hasidic community that are truly against the bike lanes in their neighbourhood. The quote excerpt is a Jewish person who appears to be a "bridge" as a cycling advocate and in conjunction with the Hasidic community. Note the the last sentence of the excerpt below.

Appreciate the hard work people who are "bridges". They might appear wishy-washy to both parties/sides of the conflict. But folks like him, are very necessary and do hard work behind-the-scenes on divisive matters. It takes awhile for the simmering to go down.

http://ghostbikesfilm.tumblr.com/post/279272480/bike-lane-battle-following-bloomberg-to-copenhagen

Baruch Herzfeld, an Orthodox Jew who runs a South Williamsburg bike clubhouse, has emerged as the unofficial spokesperson for cyclists. During a phone conversation a few minutes ago, Herzfeld told us:

How can Mayor Bloomberg go to Copenhagen and pose as a green mayor after this? He’s a hypocrite, and I believe his office directed the DOT to remove this bike lane as a political favor for the rabbis, who want to keep South Williamsburg a ghetto enclave. There was no discussion with the community, like with the Kent Ave bike lane. And this bike lane was just a visual reminder for drivers to keep their eyes open for cyclists. But the rabbis don’t want a visual reminder that there are other people in the neighborhood besides the Hasidim.
One woman asked me if she should go topless [during an upcoming protest] and I told her no, because we’re not trying to create more confrontation with the Hasids, who actually hate the rabbis much, much, much more than I do. The Hasids in the community are not the problem; they give me the thumbs up when I bike by, and even Hasidic women have told me they really approve what I’m doing. They hate the rabbis for trying to control their lives, intimidate them and scare them.

http://gothamist.com/2009/12/09/bike_lane_repainters_turn_themselve.php I'm a bit confused, so were the night-time bike illegal bike lane painters, Jewish? Or posing as Jews?

http://www.forward.com/articles/112918/ Work of the Jewish "bridge" cycling advocate.

I await folks who live in/near NYC to give us more clarification.

Zen

12-11-2009, 09:43 PM

For clarification-

There were bike lanes there.
For some reason the Hasidic Jewish community wanted them removed and the City of New York removed them.
The Hipsters were re-painting the lanes that were there before the brouhaha.
They weren't just going around painting bike lanes willy-nilly.

smilingcat

12-11-2009, 10:37 PM

Well if the hasid men are tempted, I can always bring a hot poker and we can put their eyes out.

Problem solved! So simple...

I'm not a violent person so I would never do such a thing or even comtemplate such thing. Just pointing out some idiotness of the whole thing.

kenyonchris

12-12-2009, 04:30 AM

Ridiculousness on both sides of the coin, if what we are reading is really all there is to it. Removing bike lanes because of people in tight clothes is goofy, but repainting the bike lanes illegally is just...illegal.

Crankin

12-12-2009, 06:08 AM

Shooting Star, I think that quite a few of the "illegal" repainters were Jewish. But they are not Hasids, not even Orthodox, like the bridge person you mentioned.
There are many branches of Judaism, and there are divisions (schisms?) in each of these branches. There is a huge difference in observance and lifestyle between someone who is Modern Orthodox, like the person Shooting Star mentioned, and the Hasids. The comparison between Hasids and fundamentalist Muslims is quite apt. My cousin, who I was very close to, became involved with a Hasid group, after being totally unreligious. It caused a major break in my relationship with his whole family. I've heard he's moderated, to more of a mainstream Orthodox synagogue, but it was too much for me.
Trek, my take on the Hell thing is a little hazy. The concept of going to Hell certainly is not emphasized or talked about in the Reform liturgy. The emphasis is on doing good while you're here on Earth... so you actually make a difference in other's lives (i.e. repairing the world), not so you avoid going to Hell after death. Hence, most probably the reason there are so many Jewish people in helping professions. But, I am not actually sure that there is no concept of Hell.
Just my take on this. I asked my son, who spends a lot of time visiting friends in NYC, who live in Brooklyn, about this. He knew all about the issue and said it is really crazy just to drive through there.

owlice

12-12-2009, 06:45 AM

The comparison between Hasids and fundamentalist Muslims is quite apt.

Except that I don't fear being bombed/attacked at my place of work by Hasidim, who, so far as I know, aren't interested in killing people who aren't Hasidic Jews just because those people aren't Hasidic Jews.

That said, the streets are public and should have what's necessary to make travel on the streets safe. If that means bike lanes, there should be bike lanes, and shame on the mayor for making the streets less safe.

Crankin

12-12-2009, 07:08 AM

owlice, I meant the comparison was apt in terms of the lifestyle and the degree to which the (male) religious establishment wants to keep the women "protected" from outsiders. You are right, in that I would not fear violence from most Hasids, although there is a history (Maher Kahane in the '70's).
In general, I try to keep an open mind, but trying to shield women from the outside world is not something that I can condone in any religion, even my own. Domestic violence is a somewhat unspoken issue in the Orthodox community in general, which upsets me. Somehow, that "woman of valor" thing gets twisted around.
I wonder how this will be resolved.

IvonaDestroi

12-12-2009, 09:30 AM

Seperation of church and state anyone? ANYONE???

umm safety is the issue? no bike lane is safer??? I think that might just be an excuse to undercut the actual religious issues of seeing the real world around them not conforming to their personal beliefs.

and on the topic of hipsters:I hate them. They are just rich kids pretending to be poor, following the latest mtv trends religiously, trying to be cool with no actual respect for any of the origins of what they think is trendy. They ride colorful fixed gear bicycles that their parents pay for, and think that makes them cool. they ride not because they love to cycle, but because it is trendy. The only reason they are 'protesting' like that is because they know mommy and daddy will always bail them out.

and an amusing definition of hipster from urbandictionary.com:

hipster:
Listens to bands that you have never heard of. Has hairstyle that can only be described as "complicated." (Most likely achieved by a minimum of one week not washing it.) Probably tattooed. Maybe gay. Definitely cooler than you. Reads Black Book, Nylon, and the Styles section of the New York Times. Drinks Pabst Blue Ribbon. Often. Complains. Always denies being a hipster. Hates the word. Probably living off parents money - and spends a great deal of it to look like they don't have any. Has friends and/or self cut hair. Dyes it frequently (black, white-blonde, etc. and until scalp bleeds). Has a closet full of clothing but usually wears same three things OVER AND OVER (most likely very tight black pants, scarf, and ironic tee-shirt). Chips off nail polish artfully after $50 manicure. Sleeps with everyone and talks about it at great volume in crowded coffee shops. Addicted to coffee, cigarettes (Parliaments, Kamel Reds, Lucky Strikes, etc.), and possibly cocaine. Claims to be in a band. Rehearsals consist of choosing outfits for next show and drinking PBR. Always on the list. Majors or majored in art, writing, or queer studies. Name-drops. May go by "Penny Lane," "Eleanor Rigby," etc. when drunk.

Zen

12-12-2009, 09:57 AM

"Probably tattooed. Maybe gay. Definitely cooler than you. Has a closet full of clothing but usually wears same three things OVER AND OVER (most likely very tight black pants, scarf, and ironic tee-shirt). Addicted to coffee, and possibly cocaine. Claims to be in a band. . Majors or majored in art"

I think I might be a hipster :eek:

owlice

12-12-2009, 12:47 PM

Crankin, points taken!

Zen, oh, say it isn't so!

7rider

12-12-2009, 04:30 PM

Trek420

12-12-2009, 04:55 PM

Shooting Star, I think that quite a few of the "illegal" repainters were Jewish. But they are not Hasids, not even Orthodox, like the bridge person you mentioned.
There are many branches of Judaism, and there are divisions (schisms?) in each of these branches. There is a huge difference in observance and lifestyle between someone who is Modern Orthodox, like the person Shooting Star mentioned, and the Hasids.

There's variations within this but basically 3 categories: reform, conservative and orthodox.

Reform would be more progressive more likely to allow/have a female rabbi, cantors or both. Most would perform and honor LGBT marriages and families. Think of your liberal/progressive church.

Conservative might not dress any differently, indistinguishable from a largely Christian community but they are well ... more conservative, more likely to keep kosher etc.

Orthodox, adhering strictly to the Torah.

My grandmother grew up in an Orthodox household, her mother even had an arranged marriage, two of them actually. :rolleyes: Her father (so my great great grandfather) did not like his first choice of a husband even though great grandma had come to fall in love with him. He demanded she divorce him and remarry someone more to his liking. :eek:

Biciclista

12-12-2009, 05:15 PM

My grandmother grew up in an Orthodox household, her mother even had an arranged marriage, two of them actually. :rolleyes: Her father (so my great great grandfather) did not like his first choice of a husband even though great grandma had come to fall in love with him. He demanded she divorce him and remarry someone more to his liking. :eek:

That's one of the saddest stories I've ever heard...:(

PamNY

12-12-2009, 05:29 PM

and an amusing definition of hipster from urbandictionary.com:

hipster:
Reads...the Styles section of the New York Times.

I am choking on my post-ride complex carbs here. I knew somebody must read the Styles section...now I know who.

Thanks for the laugh.

Pam

Trek420

12-12-2009, 05:34 PM

Maybe this will cheer you up. Actually maybe not. Lemme see, so great Grandma went on to marry the other dude, her first husband eventually married and became a success in business.

That was the objection, not that he was a bad guy or anything. He wanted to be a businessman and NOT a Talmudic scholar. His eyes got opened to the possibilities when serving in the army. In Orthodox communities being a scholar is the height of success. Often the women run businesses while the men study. How you gonna keep em down in the schule after they've seen Paris? :rolleyes:

So she's remarried, first hubby is too, I don't think he and his wife ever had kids of their own. I should find out.

My grandma made it to the USA, this is the sad part, one of the few members of my Mom's family who escaped :( She never saw her family again, except for this step-dad I guess you'd call him and a cousin who was already here. She remained staunchly anti Orthodox all her days. In her youth Grandma had hair down nearly to her feet and refused to cut it when she married. Her DH did not mind so why not?

Orthodox women cut their hair short at marriage and wear wigs. Only your husband sees your real hair.

For that transgression my great grandma refused to see her off at the train. That, as much as the Holocaust she blamed for never seeing them again. She felt somehow if that had not come between them they might have followed over.

I really do not think they could have made it out of Poland given the timing when she left but that haunted grandma I think.

Anyway her step-dad and his 2nd wife are already here in the USA.

Both helped with with the kids, my Mom and Aunt. :)

My mom has fond memories of going to the beach where they swam daily. One would watch her and her sister while the other swam and then switch.

Crankin

12-13-2009, 06:28 AM

What a story, Trek. My family is so boring. All grandparents born in the US, all 4 families arriving sometime in the decades after the Civil War. Yea, they think they came over on the Mayflower.
My dad's dad was born in the US, but his mom hated it here. They went back to Germany for a few years when he was 2 (born in 1895), but I guess she finally saw the writing on the wall and returned to Connecticut. The great grandfather I knew, rubbed soap in his eyes to escape serving in the Czar's army. He gave himself cataracts, but managed to get to Worcester, MA, where my mom's mom was born. He was an austere, tall guy, who was very formal. He lived until I was 12, so we used to see him frequently. Typical stoic Russian in my eyes.
Seriously, both sides of my family worked really hard at turning themselves into "Yankees," and until my cousin became Orthodox, I was the most religious person in my family. When my kids were little, I decided that since I was sending them to a JCC preschool, I wouldn't be a hypocrite and so I learned, along with them.

Trek420

12-13-2009, 08:54 AM

I don't know that Russians are stoic. Maybe it depends on where in Russia they are from? My dad's side of the family is from there, Odessa/Kiev. I never met my grandfather (actually either of them, paternal or maternal).

Born in Russia my dad was hardly stoic, unless by that you mean able to persevere through great difficulties without complaining while maintaining a sense of humor. I think that was one of many great qualities he had.

But also a great sense of humor especially puns and from what I hear his Dad did too.

Grandma and Grandpa both graduated from the Royal Music Conservatory in Odessa. They went on to tour as singers, then grandpa became a cantor at a temple in New York. Although his career was before widespread availability of recording he's thought by some to be one of the half dozen or so best cantors evah ;) :cool:

Someday soon when things calm down and I'm less focussed on trying to move my job and bikes to the PNW I would like to learn more about Judaism.

Selkie

12-13-2009, 09:27 AM

..... The emphasis is on doing good while you're here on Earth... so you actually make a difference in other's lives (i.e. repairing the world), not so you avoid going to Hell after death. Hence, most probably the reason there are so many Jewish people in helping professions. ....

This says it all, Crankin. Focus on others, not on yourself (i.e., doing good just you so can avoid hell?)

I love NYC.....

Trek420

12-13-2009, 09:48 AM

That seems very much part of or the essence of the Judeo Christian tradition. You know that bit about somewhere (someone here will quote this I'm sure) something like "as you treat the least of mine that's how you're known as ...."

It's not going to God's Gym (yes there is one in my area)
Or wearing the WWJD lanyard for your work id.
Or what church you go to ....

It's how you treat others I think.

Selkie

12-13-2009, 01:44 PM

God's gym? Tell me more!

Trek420

12-13-2009, 02:06 PM

Actually, not a bad idea or place:

http://thetown.wordpress.com/2007/09/23/gods-gym-by-kerry-seed/

“My biggest accomplishment is changing people’s lives,” Shields said. “People come here. They’re hopeless. They say, ‘I can never get in shape.’ I help them.”

Zen

12-13-2009, 02:48 PM

I thought Gods Gym was when you went hiking instead of using a treadmill :rolleyes:

Trek420

12-13-2009, 02:52 PM

Another zinger and bingo from Zen :p

Zen

12-13-2009, 03:34 PM

No, I really mean it. Seriously.
Why won't you believe me?:p

Trek420

12-13-2009, 03:45 PM

No, I really mean it. Seriously.
Why won't you believe me?:p

"why are you taking me to hell and what is this handbasket I'm in?" :p ;) :D

OakLeaf

12-13-2009, 04:20 PM

Does the Christian Aerobics show still come on TV?

crazycanuck

12-13-2009, 09:22 PM

ooookk.....The mental image I have of a Christian Aerobics show is purty darn funny...

*snork*

Let's pray..

Get down n give me 50..then recite that verse from whatever gospel. UP! Down.
Now, 50 pull ups.
Let's work on those legs. 40 squats. Now sing that blah blah gospel song at the same time.
Now Mrs Foosieewoosiee, that was only 20. Sorry, no going to heaven for you since you cheated.

How are you feeling now? There's no crying in baseball!

Please continue..

Trek420

12-13-2009, 09:45 PM

Does the Christian Aerobics show still come on TV?

this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdZsZWuskI&feature=related

OakLeaf

12-14-2009, 04:29 AM

You both missed the part where she used to ask for donations every 3-4 minutes. :p

Becky

12-14-2009, 05:50 AM

ooookk.....The mental image I have of a Christian Aerobics show is purty darn funny...

*chuckles* I attended an Episcopal church for awhile.....it really was like church aerobics! Sit, stand, kneel, now give me 5 deep knee bends, and up... :D

Crankin

12-14-2009, 06:20 AM

I am staying out of this..
although I did teach aerobics at the Jewish Community Center, back in the day. However, I did not make anyone pray, although maybe I should have asked for donations?:)

Kalidurga

12-17-2009, 05:13 PM

I haven't continued to follow this conversation, so sorry if someone else already posted this...

For Mimi:

http://www.milanofixed.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/image1.jpg

From Urban Velo (http://urbanvelo.org/evolution-of-the-hipster/) :D

Biciclista

12-17-2009, 05:34 PM

oh no!! some of these people resemble my own SONS!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

thanks Kalidurga. I wish i could read it better...

shootingstar

12-17-2009, 06:11 PM

Hope some folks here who might fit the image, can giggle at themselves. They're tough enough. :)

Zen

12-17-2009, 06:11 PM

The beer is wrong.

Tuckervill

12-17-2009, 06:58 PM

I know right? It should be PBR. But that's on his hat.

Here's a readable version.
http://digital.pastemagazine.com/publication/?i=26727&p=29

Zen

12-17-2009, 07:26 PM

I would so wear that orange dress and boots :o

lph

12-18-2009, 01:33 AM

Oh me too! But I like that furry hat a lot too.

*snork* the "mountain man" looks just like half the dudes at my local climbing gym.

lo123

12-18-2009, 08:17 AM

oh no!! some of these people resemble my own SONS!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

thanks Kalidurga. I wish i could read it better...
Linky: http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2009/12/the-evolution-of-the-hipster-2000-2009.html

lauraelmore1033

12-18-2009, 09:36 AM

Boy, if I were a youngster ( anywhere under, say, the age of 25) I would be really insulted! Both my sons are a mixture of many of the hipster "stages", The over riding characteristic of which seems to be a reaction against the trappings of their parent's generation. What generation of kids hasn't done that? We all look pretty silly as we fumble about trying to define ourselves--especially when we do it by playing up what we are not. Any way, the whole hubub seems to me to be about the perennial disruptiveness of "sexy" young women. Not sure where hipsterdom comes into it.

Crankin

12-18-2009, 11:27 AM

One of my sons sort of looks like a combination of those guys. The who commutes, natch. He commuted this morning, when the temperature was about 7 F. Of course, he called me to consult on what to wear. My reply was, "you are nuts."
I have come to the conclusion that he is as tough as his brother, who is a Marine.

PamNY

12-19-2009, 10:00 AM

shootingstar

12-19-2009, 12:53 PM

Big doings! A naked bike ride (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2009/12/19/2009-12-19_naked_bike_rally_wont_shrink_from_cold.html) to protest the closure is planned for this evening. Brrrr.

How,...um..meaningful. A naked bike ride protest.
Ok, label me a prude, but really, naked bike rides to me, aren't fun. Just kinda stupid. Actually have never understood the logic of naked bike rides for any situation.

Once in Toronto, we were riding around and inadvertedly rode into an area where the naked bike ride was going through. I was not impressed...and these guys (most of them were) were in better shape than the general guy population.

I felt sorry for a family with their 2 children under age 10, who were about 1 km. behind us, before they turned the corner.... They wouldn't have known what they were going to see.

owlice

12-19-2009, 01:23 PM

kenyonchris

12-21-2009, 02:28 PM

If the point of the bike lanes is safety (it is, isn't it? Bike lanes make it safer for cyclists?), it seems to me that a naked bike ride, in the dark, in the cold, in the snow, is not the best way to make the point that cyclists value safety.

I agree. I also think it does not help to drive home the point that cyclists are a serious, sane, reasonable group of people who have valid points to make.
Yuck. If I had a bunch of naked people riding in front of MY house I would lobby to have the bike lane closed too. Besides the fact that, once again, it is ILLEGAL to ride naked (well, it is illegal to expose one's genitals to the point of offense).

Geonz

12-21-2009, 03:06 PM

It's not the bike lane bringing the naked folks out. The bike lane is just a bike lane. That's the weird part -- the idea that bike lanes somehow cause the distractions. Do the Hasidim have the right to keep people from riding on the public streets? Do they have the right to have the facilities changed on those grounds? Closing bike lanes doesn't keep *all* cyclists away...

We just had a public hearing to discuss taking parking away and putting in bike lanes. The city folks listened to the citizens' reasoning both ways. Fundamentally, the arguments that "bicyclists are bad things to have in our nei9ghborhood" were sagely nodded at... but not considered as valid.Basically bicycles are now included in transportation planning. If that's true in some parts of NY, it should be true in the selective neighborhoods, too.

Since the Hasidim are going beyond logic it kinda makes sense to me that the cyclists are, too. If they really don't want the distractions, then they can ask for the bike lanes to be put back, and then the people will stop distracting. That's logical. If the distractions are truly their priority they'll go for it.

kenyonchris

12-22-2009, 04:46 AM

Do the Hasidim have the right to keep people from riding on the public streets? Do they have the right to have the facilities changed on those grounds? Closing bike lanes doesn't keep *all* cyclists away...

Since the Hasidim are going beyond logic it kinda makes sense to me that the cyclists are, too. If they really don't want the distractions, then they can ask for the bike lanes to be put back, and then the people will stop distracting. That's logical. If the distractions are truly their priority they'll go for it.

Yeah, this argument of "going beyond logic makes others do the same" doesn't make sense...if the removed the bike lanes, you have to go through legal channels to replace them...two wrongs don't make a right. Petition, protest, picket, whatever (as long as you don't interfere with others rights to move about freely) but repainting bike lanes illegally and a naked bike ride is not the way to go.
Police cannot enforce cyclists right to a bike lane if the lane is painted illegally anyhow. It may as well not exist.

Geonz

12-22-2009, 08:14 AM

The legal channels have obviously broken down; the lanes were originally the law and the change was because of a fundamental corruption of the law. They're putting *back* what was illegally removed.
I would have to agree that the clown ride is a more intelligent and inviting protest, since it stays well within the law and isn't even "scantily clad." As a strategy, though, the nekkidity might bring more press coverage and therefore expose the corruption for what it is.
And I also have to agree that people *will* lump cyclists into the fringe, making it just harder to convey cycling as normal behavior that others might consider trying.

owlice

12-22-2009, 02:57 PM

And I also have to agree that people *will* lump cyclists into the fringe, making it just harder to convey cycling as normal behavior that others might consider trying.

And it certainly doesn't help cyclists to come in off the fringe in people's minds when they ride naked in the dark and snow -- which is not particularly safe -- to try to make the point that they value safety.

The main thing the cyclists had going for them was the safety issue. It is easy to petition on the side of safety; it's harder to petition successfully when standing naked on an illegal soapbox.

The legal channels are still there, waiting to be used. If people don't want to be considered on the fringe, they shouldn't act like people on the fringe.