Another small hands situation...

[little_teapot]

Hi All,

This is my first post, but as many surely are, I'm a long time lurker. I've found quite a bit of info about similar small hands issues but perhaps not that that much about my exact issue.

I just bought my first road bike (hooray). Specialized Dolce Comp 09 at a great price. Found a shop I really like, they spent 2 hours setting me up, bike seems to fit well. In choosing bike/shop this was my main focus as I’m really short (5'2") and have read lots about fit here! After hitting the road a couple of times I've found that I’m having a bit of trouble braking with the rear brake (left hand- I'm in Australia, have since learnt this is opposite to the states).

Main issue seems to be small hands and poor leverage on the left (back) 105 shifter when I'm in the hoods (no problems in the drops). Makes for sore hand and poor braking strength on that side ... testing it out it takes me about twice the distance to stop using rear brake only compared to using the front brake only. My bike came with the shims inserted in the levers to reduce the reach- so no quick easy fix there. SO, the shop, who so far have been really good to me, recommended changing the shifters- 2 options:

*SRAM rival shifters and rear derailleur (the better option in his eyes). Apparently the pivot points are much higher on the shifters and this will make it easier to get better leverage, campy are similar but way more expensive.

*Ultegra shifters - no derailleur change required, but same cost as above. Better leverage, but not as good as SRAM? Bonus is I can test ride a bike with this setup, but not the SRAM (at least not at my shop... and not sure how easy it is to find small bike with SRAM here to test)

If I choose to do it, this unexpected upgrade will cost me a reasonable amount, and my budget is tight... but I'm happy to do it if will solve all my problems.

I have two friends, both guys, who I also trust and have asked their opinions (one is a mechanic in different bike shop). They both think that upgrading straight away with new bike isn’t cool, and are not that keen on the idea of adding some SRAM into an otherwise ‘pure’ 105 set up.

So, after that longwinded story, I think my questions are:
Is there a problem in general with adding a few SRAM parts to otherwise 105 set up? Any thoughts on SRAM vs Ultegra shifters (the latest version 6700?) for small hands and leverage etc from the hoods?

Thanks!

[OakLeaf]

it takes me about twice the distance to stop using rear brake only compared to using the front brake only.

This is the sentence that says to me that there's nothing wrong with your setup.

On a vehicle with front and rear wheel(s), about 75% of your braking power will come from your front brake. Think of the weight transfer under braking and the forces on your tires, and you'll understand why. Over time, you'll see that your front brake pads wear much more quickly than the rear.

Here's a site (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_weightxfr) I just found on a quick google that explains weight transfer under braking pretty clearly. It's actually written about four-wheeled vehicles, but the physics don't change, it's just that you have other considerations when turning. Here's another (http://phors.locost7.info/phors01.htm) more technically-oriented explanation.

Part of learning to ride is learning to modulate your brakes and using each of them in the correct proportion. On a flat piece of road with a good braking surface, you'll use your front brake much more than the rear. When the surface gets soft, you'll use less front brake (so as not to lock up your steering control), but consequently have much less overall braking power.


Another edit: Here's something really good and bicycle-specific from, believe it or not, the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation (http://www.dot.state.pa.us/BIKE/WEB/safety_brakes.htm)! Just google "bicycle weight transfer" as I did, and you come up with all sorts of good stuff.


(Another edit: Motorcycle sites are relevant to a point, but the one very important thing to remember is that on a bicycle, you stop pedaling when you're trying to slow down, whereas in a motorized vehicle, the engine is always turning and you have to apply the clutch to stop power transfer to the drive wheel(s). So the "highside," which is the most violent type of motorcycle crash, can't happen on a bicycle.)

[Ana]

I had 105 on my last bicycle and the shifters were quite large. Although I could brake in the drops, it hadn't even occurred to me that I might be able to brake in the hoods since it was so inconceivable based on the size of the shifters versus my hands. Basically, I did not realize how unsafe it was until I switched over to Campy, whose shifters are much smaller and fit my hands very well! :D

I am 5'3.5" with short arms/small hands and your situation seems quite normal to me from my experience :p

[MartianDestiny]

First and foremost realize that something like 70% of your braking power is in the FRONT wheel. It wouldn't matter if you were a 6ft male body builder; using the rear brake only will never provide you with the same stopping power as using the front brake (about twice the distance sounds about right).

A change in braking style *may* solve your issues. I ALWAYS use BOTH brakes and sometimes even just the front (don't do that unless you know your bike and know how much you can apply the front only without causing the bike to go arse over teakettle). I think of the back brake as a slow gradual stop or minor speed adjustments (about to overlap wheels in the pack, etc). If I need to STOP I grab the front brake (and the rear one too).

I have a set of cheapo shimano shift levers (probably tiagra, so lower than 105) and a set of Ultegra. The Ultegra's are nicer all around (as they should be), but I can stop the "el cheapo" bike fine. (and I have full shims and all that jazz as well).

Some other things you might want to discuss with the bike shop that could be cheaper solutions if just modifying braking technique doesn't work:

1) Not all brake pads are created totally equal. Change to some "nicer" pads and see if that makes a difference (and even buying something like Dura-ace level pads will only run you $30 or 40 MAX).

2) Change the rear brake caliper from 105 to something else with more leverage or that's more sensitive. Maybe even bump that up to Ultegra or a competing brand.

3) Have the shop play with cable tension and brake adjustment if they haven't already.

4) Play with the location of the levers on the bars. Moving them up a hair may give you a better grip from the hoods; just make sure it doesn't make them too far out for you when you are in the drops.

As for the Shimano/SRAM thing: I don't think there is a huge issue with adding SRAM parts though compatibility will play a more important role as things wear out and get replaced. There is a completely different feel to the shifting mechanism though. I could see some people (myself included) not wanting their front and rear derailluers to have different shift feels. Some will argue that the SRAM shifters are shorter through the hood (they are) and thus better for small hands (which is probably where your shop is going). Make sure you ride them before you drop a lot of money on them; I HATE SRAM shifters (go figure). Yea, I can brake without shims, but they feel "fatter" in my hands AND I can no longer shift because of the "double tap" mechanism and there's not anything that can be done to fix that (no shims). Also, because the feel and length of the shifter body is different I would want both to be the same; that would mean changing basically your whole drivetrain!!!! I guess that's the long winded way of me saying "yea, you can do it, but I wouldn't".

I think you'll probably be fine though with your current set up and some minor tweaks to your braking style and maybe the equipment as well.

[Triskeliongirl]

The cheapest solution is to install brake shims. I bought a new bike that came equipped with Durace10-7800 levers. I had to double shim them but it took care of the problem.

These should fit your bike if it is shimano105-10spd: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=41915
but order 2 sets and install both of them (if you are like me). Of course you'll need to adjust your brakes after installing, but they'll let the levers come in a lot closer.

I should add that whether you need 1 or 2 sets also depends on the shape of your handelbar, but at $10 a pop I'd order 2 just in case. Your LBS can also order them for you if you will need them to help you with the installation and brake adjustment, but its really easy.

Previously, I used shimano short reach levers, that is also an option for you but it will cost you ~$300.

[kenyonchris]

I had 105 on my last bicycle and the shifters were quite large. Although I could brake in the drops, it hadn't even occurred to me that I might be able to brake in the hoods since it was so inconceivable based on the size of the shifters versus my hands. Basically, I did not realize how unsafe it was until I switched over to Campy, whose shifters are much smaller and fit my hands very well! :D

I am 5'3.5" with short arms/small hands and your situation seems quite normal to me from my experience :p

Ditto on this...I am small with small hands, plus I have broken both hands and all my fingers at least once (my left hand has fared worse, the ring finger on that one has been broken three times). I have ridden Shimano 105, Tiagra, Ultegra, Dura Ace, and now am riding Campy Chorus. The Campy Chorus is by far the easiest for braking and shifting, particularly on the left side.

Also, I played a lot with my handlebars. I now have Specialized WS on there, it makes a huge difference. I also, being small, insisted on 38" bars, despite EVERY bike shop eyeballing me, telling me a 40" would work, until they actually measured me and they all said, "Why you ARE small, aren't you!"

[bluebug32]

I have small hands and have shims in my dura ace shifters. This helps, as does a shallower bar, but I am still planning to swap out to SRAM Rival when I find a good deal on them. The shifters are smaller, adjustable, and rebuildable, unlike Shimano.

[Crankin]

I also, was going to suggest bars with a shallower drop and narrower bars. I spent the $ for the Shimano short reach shifters. It was worth every penny of the $300.00.
After doing all three of these things, I can, for the first time, brake in the drops and feel comfortable that I can squeeze the brakes hard .I tried the shims for at least a year and they actually made the braking feel worse.

[VeloVT]

I have R700 shifters on one of my bikes. I'm not sure how different these are than standard Shimano shifters that have been shimmed, but I do find they make a significant difference in how close the levers are to the bar. I can probably dig up pictures for comparison if you are interested (of R700 shifters on Ritchey Biomax bars vs regular unshimmed Ultegra shifters on Ritchey Biomax Bars).

Narrower bars are nice if you have narrower shoulders (as I do, in fact), but they won't help your hand problems.

The shape of the drop can make a significant difference. Rounder, more traditional drops, counter-intuitively, often have a shorter reach to the shifters than modern ergo bars have.

What everyone has said about braking technique is right on (you want to be relying more on your front brake than your rear brake), but if you are noticiing significant differences you should also check the brake adjustments. Can you actually pull your rear brake lever closer to the bar before engaging the brake? If so, you need to tighten up the rear brake.

[little_teapot]

Thanks so much everyone!! I'm actually overwhelmed with the response, I wasn't sure that anyone would care.

Great advice about the front/rear percentage of braking- I've had a bit of a look at some of those sites, and definitely need to go out on the bike and have a bit of a play. Will keep reading and researching, but a friend goes to a skills class on weekends, and I'm planning ongoing along with her this saturday. Will ask the coach/head dude about braking techniques and to check my hand position and see how much of it might be just technique related.... I've got to say on my flat bar roady I definitely used the back brakes way more than the front- seems like its time to make a few changes!

Perhaps if things still aren't quite right after some skill development I'll suss out some test rides on either Ultegra shifters or the SRAM ones if I can find them... as for the Campy comments- that is what I have heard and read- just seems that SRAM might be a bit of a more budget friendly alternative (I haven't dared ask for the campy quote- but am assured by the bike shop that it is significantly more expensive).

I might look into the double shimming thing too... the bike shop guy didn't think we could achieve much more with shims. I am interested though- can anyone actually tell me if there is a difference between regular 105 (or other) shifters that are shimmed and the R700 shifters- it's really unclear to me if these are basically the same thing, or if the R700s are a bit smaller.

Anyhow, will continue on- thanks again for the lovely support!

[tzvia]

I'm 5'1.5, with short fingers, and ride a Specialized Ruby size 44cm. It came originally with 105's that I upgraded to Ultegra SL (along with a replacement frame :() after a crash really messed them up. The Ultegras don't really feel much different, and they have the shims in them that Specialized uses, probably the same as what you have in your levers. It's that bulbous shifter mechanism that makes it harder for me to get my fingers around the lever when on the hoods, and I don't think that the shims help much there, they only really help in the drops.

You may want to get the more powerful hand on the rear brake. Not that it would stop you better, but it might help prevent panic endos occurring from locking the front wheel with the more powerful hand. If your left hand is weak and you feel it would be unsafe on the front brake, as it is the 'stopper', you might want to keep it on the back brake and do some strength hand exercises (like a squeeze ball). I am lucky to have good hand strength in both hands despite carpal tunnel, so run with the right on the rear brake.

If I have to brake suddenly on the hoods, I try to shift my weight down and back, knowing that i might go over the bars if I lock the front and allow my weight to shift forward. I also know that with the longer cable run to the rear brake, and the extra brake housing, along with the weight shift forward with deceleration, that the front is doing most of the work.

The other replies here have a lot of good information. I would also add that when I switched to a better brake than the Tectros that came on the Ruby (I put my old Dura Ace on but you don't have to go that pricey to get a better brake) braking force increased and braking effort improved and eased a great deal.

[aicabsolut]

I think many of you are missing something...
She says that she needs to move the lever a lot farther in order to get much braking power. Granted, you get less braking power with the rear brake, but I don't think that's the issue. To me, this says that the cable is too loose so that she's having to pull the lever far towards the drops for her liking before the pads are gripping the rim. Looseness of the brakes is personal preference, though I can see that having tighter brakes with short fingers could be useful (I like my brakes loose, but I do not have small hands).

Turn the barrel adjuster at the rear caliper counterclockwise to tighten the cable and bring the pads closer to the rim. It will now make contact with the rim with less modulation of the lever.

[OakLeaf]

I still don't see where she said that.

But anyway, if you do choose to set your brakes up with less travel, remember that wheels do expand more than you'd think when they heat up during use. You can set your brakes up nice and tight the way you like them in the garage, only to find that they're rubbing going up that steep hill. :eek: (DAMHIK...)

Also, if hand strength is an issue, use one hand to compress the caliper while you turn the adjuster a quarter turn at a time. Easier than trying to compress the caliper by turning the adjuster.

[fatbottomedgurl]

I ditto looking at smaller bars before the big expense of changing out shifters and brake levers. Made a huge difference for me (another 5 foot-short gal).

[little_teapot]

Hey,

Thanks for continuing interest... just to clear it up, I think my problem is I CAN"T move the lever much at all (at least not so it feels stong). To me this seems due to the small size of my hands and the way my index finger is positioned in a direct line with the pivot point of the brake lever... and the middle finger only just gets on there at all...

Anyhow, off to a skills class in the morning to see if fixing my technique can solve at least part if not all of the problem.

I hopefully won't stoke the fire too much with this one, but reading things in various posts about brakes and reach and handlebars... if I am having problems getting a good squeeze on the brakes from the hoods, how would changing the handlebars help?? I can see how it helps if my problem is from the drops... but it's not, it's a hoods only issue... my hand is on the hood which is part of the lever... not part of the handlebar... so I'm perplexed!

Hand strengthening is definitely a good idea. And thanks tzvia- having some real world comments about the ultegra vs 105 is really helpful.

[MartianDestiny]

Hey,

I hopefully won't stoke the fire too much with this one, but reading things in various posts about brakes and reach and handlebars... if I am having problems getting a good squeeze on the brakes from the hoods, how would changing the handlebars help?? I can see how it helps if my problem is from the drops... but it's not, it's a hoods only issue... my hand is on the hood which is part of the lever... not part of the handlebar... so I'm perplexed!


Moving to short reach handlebars means there is less total reach from saddle to hoods. When you are struggling to reach the hoods well or can't quite get your fingers wrapped around that extra few millimeters to allow you to rotate out/down some really can help. A shorter stem may have the same effect but short reach bars are a less drastic change.

Or maybe I'm wrong?

[kenyonchris]

Moving to short reach handlebars means there is less total reach from saddle to hoods. When you are struggling to reach the hoods well or can't quite get your fingers wrapped around that extra few millimeters to allow you to rotate out/down some really can help. A shorter stem may have the same effect but short reach bars are a less drastic change.

Or maybe I'm wrong?

This helped me a lot. My bike is a tiny bit large (as opposed to a lot small going one size down) so women's bars shortened the reach quite a bit.
Shortening the stem made my bike a bit too twitchy for me.

[lunacycles]

I think she is saying that the reach to the hoods isn't the problem. It is reaching the actual brake lever with her fingers when her hands are on the hoods that is the problem.

BTW, SRAM brifters are adjustable reach. It doesn't mean they are set up that way, but if you do get them, make sure whoever installs them sets the reach on the smallest possible setting . This will effectively bring the brake lever part of the brifter closer to the bar and should make it easier for you to reach with your fingers. It's not a shim, either, which imo is a better solution than the Shimano/Specialized shim.

[OakLeaf]

the way my index finger is positioned in a direct line with the pivot point of the brake lever

hmmmmmm. I wonder if you're actually too close? How does your reach feel otherwise, on your upper body? I would think that the farther your body gets behind the handlebars, the more your hands will tend to parallel the ground, which isn't necessarily comfortable on the hoods, but should give you solid braking position?

Just moving the levers higher on the bars might help you. I prefer mine kind of high. You still want them in the bends, so you can reach them in the drops and the levers are in a workable position, but there's a range of several centimeters.

[Faster Pussycat]

Hi Little Teapot,

I had this exact same problem and I am 157cm and ride a 44cm specialized ruby. I had a long reach to my brakes on the hoods and often rides my index fingers would lock up on breaking on long descents.

On the drops I couldn't reach my brakes at all. I have a bad neck and I was having some shoulder issues that ended up being related to the long "throw" of the 105 leaver - particularly the left one. Having small hands I had to reach around with my wrist, dropping the shoulder to get up on the big cog a the front.

I changed over to SRAM (force rather than rival) shifters and rear derailuer and shallower drop handlebars. I honestly would not go back to shimano. I test rode an 2010 Amira the other week that had the new "short reach" ultegra levers and it wasn't as nice as my SRAM set up.

SRAM isn't popular in Australia and lots of LBS don't like it - at least in my experience. Even at my LBS who fitted the new group set (I ended up with no shimano at all on my Ruby) there are only a couple of couple of guys who "get" sram and having it working like a dream.

I am not sure where you are located but my LBS here in Northern Sydney has a few SRAM bikes that you can try just to get a feel of if you like the shifting action (not everyone does).

[lunacycles]

SRAM brifters were partially (or in full, I can't remember) designed by a woman, btw.

[azfiddle]

I have pretty small hands, and I can't really use the brakes in the drops without consciously moving my hands- it's not impossible, but I often use the other set of brakes. The shop mentioned the shims, but I never followed up on it.

[little_teapot]

Update...

I went along to a skills class yesterday, and figured out that quite a lot of my problem may have been how I was positioning my hands together with relying too much on the back brake. Perhaps I have just been a bit slow making the transition from flat bar to the road bike (ie: newbie related issues NOT bike!!) I can't think how to explain it, but what I thought was dropping my wrist out too far seems to be quite a normal position.

I had a decent chat to the coach, and he thought my new hand position looked absolutely fine, I also got to see how lots of other women (several as short as me) manage with brakes/hoods. Result- I can now ride comfortably and am feeling way more confident with the brakes (using the 75% on the front tactic is completely new to me- but works a treat!).

Faster pussycat- I'm in Melbourne, but thanks for the info- SRAM does seem pretty rare here, especially to test ride. Sounds like we are the same height I'm on a 48cm bike- but I think I have really short legs... so maybe longer body?? anyway, bike seems to fit- but really good to hear your SRAM experiences... and I'll definitely go that way if I do ever feel the need to upgrade!

SO the current plan is to get out and ride now that I am feeling more confident... I'll hold onto my cash at the moment, but will monitor how things go- if any problems arise again I am armed with loads of info on what to do next!!

Happy riding all and thanks again!

[Faster Pussycat]

Good to hear you are feeling a little more confident. Definatley hang onto your cash until you are ready to upgrade. I learnt an overcapitalisation lesson pretty early! On your next bike they will generally swap out shimano for sram of a similar level for pretty much no or little cost.

I test rode an 48cm bike the other day and I also have short legs but it felt a little strange. Mostly because it was ultegra and I got to the traffic lights and couldn't workout how to change gears! I am not in love having such a small frame, I also do a bit of triathlon and she looks very odd hovering on the rack :p

I went the smaller frame as I like a bit of drop between the handle bars and saddle. On the 48cm it was already with no spacers so I couldn't get any lower. Sadly for this reason I may be destined for a lifetime of child size frames.

[Miranda]

I have the Shimano short reach shifters and love them. I test rode a bike with SRAM and I hated it. It would have been cheaper, and lighter the lbs pointed out. But, still not worth it imho. I felt the SRAM was: 1) a lot of reach, 2) harder tension to brake & hurt my hands, 3) did not like the double tap system, and 4) the shifting was rough compared to Shimano. It's an awful feeling having to 'think' about a function of your bicycle's performance that should be second nature. Hope it all works out for you in the end.