Minarets in Switzerland

[Tuckervill]

Can someone please explain to me why minarets are such an issue in Switzerland? Do they feel the same way about crosses and steeples or other religious architecture?

I'm having trouble understanding how architecture is equated with ideology, and therefore banned. Maybe I don't understand minarets.

Karen

[shootingstar]

I interpreted the issue with some of the Swiss in power, as fear of Muslimization. Big question is would they see several Buddhist temples in their country as a threat to their political security or societal values? Despite their avowed freedom of religion.

Perhaps alpinerabbit TE member can comment since she lives in Switzerland.

I hope things have changed in Switzerland in past 20 years. I heard slightly differently from a Canadian woman who lived and worked there for 7 years. She worked for the Canadian embassy. She did have a finely tuned sense of 'social justice' and could sense inequities in certain social situations if such situations arose.

She was/still is fluent in German (and French) since that is her mother tongue. Hence socialized with locals there, got to know some interesting stuff. Some of it was not pleasant....there is an underlying paranoia by some Swiss who have been there for generations..of 'foreigners' or recent immigrants. Things would be different or tolerated, I suppose if one has a healthy amount of money or more "Westernized".

Let's hope that the official desired ban on minarets represents a few folks there, not all.

[Tuckervill]

I interpreted the issue with some of the Swiss in power, as fear of Muslimization.

Ya, I'm surprised they are so overt about it. That's the part I don't understand.

Apparently a majority of the folks DID support the ban, since it passed.

Karen

[PscyclePath]

Western Europe has a lot of immigrants who have come from Muslim countries in search of a better life. When I lived in Germany in the late 80s, there were large ethnic communities of Turks moving there, much as Mexicans come here to the U.S. looking for a better way of life. These folks often retain a lot of their customs and dress from their home countries, as well as their religion.

There's no strict separation of church and state in Western Europe, like we have here (which is one reason why we're over here and they're still over there for the past 230 some-odd years). The major churches, Catholic and Protestant, receive tax funds from the government, and in return, a lot of the social services provided by human services agencies in U.S. are provided by the churches in Europe. Islam is "different," and they're somehow behind all those crazy jihadists running around back in the Islamic countries as well as exporting their violence to Europe. Switzerland (& Germany) is a place where your neighbors get all out of sorts about you running your lawn mower too early ona Saturday morning, much less the howling Arabic call to prayer at o'dark-thirty every day of the week. Your average western European just flat doesn't cotton to that kind of carrying on.

Think of all the uproar and outrage that our current politicians are raising about ILLEGAL ALIENS!! here in Arkansas, as well as the other states. The Swiss ban on minarets stems from the same sort of xenophobia, only the European countries often don't have the same constitutional protections as the U.S., and they have the community solidarity to get those sorts of laws introduced and enacted.

I loved living in Europe for the six years that I was there... but one thing it really impressed on me is how precious are the constitutional privileges that we have here.

This is definitely not a PC description of the issues, but it is my observations from living in those sorts of communities for an extended time...

Tom

[shootingstar]

Well, it's always better people express what they really feel. :p

One of the Sikh temples in a surburb of Vancouver, just recently elected a young woman to provide leadership. Kinda cool. She sounds like a bright young woman, pursuing her university math degree here locally.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/the-new-face-of-canadas-sikhs/article1365825/

Could you imagine your 19-yr. daughter providing such leadership and power brokering with the older, traditional men? :)

[Tuckervill]

(Tom, do you know who/what organization puts up those anti-illegals bulletin boards outside of Conway all the time? Have you noticed them? Someone with bucks to spend I guess.)

I really just can't fathom anyone making minarets an issue in my part of the world (they would complain about SOMETHING, but it wouldn't be architecture). We have many many churches and other places of worship around here. I happen to think some of them are hideously ostentatious to the point of obscene. But, I'm trying to imagine if someone started a petition to keep a mosque out based on the existence of minarets. Wouldn't they know that eventually someone would try to put limits on THEIR freedom to build their place of worship?

Perhaps it is because there are FEWER religious people in Switzerland, not more, and so the non-religious don't have a dog in the fight?

Karen

[Tuckervill]

I'm pretty sure my town doesn't have a Sikh temple. Or a mosque. Or a Jewish temple. I don't even think there is a UU congregation. But there must be some nearby (Fayetteville), near the campus. I have seen some people in traditional dress from other cultures.

Karen

[crazycanuck]

COntact Alpinerabbit she lives there! You're just getting an American perspective here...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8388776.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/11/091107_minarets_nh_ht.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/04/2009_48_fri.shtml

[Tuckervill]

Yes, I was hoping someone who had at least been there could speak up. :) This is the most geographically diverse place I know.

I've never been off this continent. I would just like to understand this from a personal angle.

Karen

[OakLeaf]

But, I'm trying to imagine if someone started a petition to keep a mosque out based on the existence of minarets. Wouldn't they know that eventually someone would try to put limits on THEIR freedom to build their place of worship?

Uh..... no. Sorry to be blunt, but bigots by definition can't or won't see beyond the end of their own noses.

Every time our newspaper runs a feature about a Hindu or Muslim holiday celebration, for instance, the reader comments are just appalling. I mean, the unvarnished racism of the reader comments is *always* appalling, but specifically in the context of religion, public attitudes are no different in the USA than what we're seeing from Switzerland.

W/R/T Tom's comment - I don't think you can paint all of Europe with the same brush concerning constitutional protections, but you certainly have a point. Another thing to remember is that secularism in Europe is very, very different from what it is in the USA. Where we're more about "freedom to," they take more of a "freedom from" religion approach.

[shootingstar]

Well, it happened just a few days ago, Oak in local press. The local press was happily reporting the fact that China will make it easier for their folks to visit British Columbia as tourists.

The barrage of some negative, dumb comments at end of article is amazing but not surprising.
http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/cent+boom+China+tourists+expected+after+approved+destination+status+okayed/2299286/story.html

Demographic makeup of Vancouver and Toronto is here, based on the latest census:
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/english/census06/data/highlights/ethnic/pages/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo=CMA&Code=01&Table=1&Data=Count&StartRec=126&Sort=2&Display=Page&CSDFilter=5000

It means Metro Vancouver & several suburbs= 2+ million, of which 380,000+ Chinese descent, 180,000+ South Asian descent.

Toronto is Metro Toronto ( including Oshawa, Pickering, Mississauga, etc.) 5+ million. And see the rest in terms of realities.

Of course, some of those numbers would include international students, 4th-generation Canadians (some who haven't even been to Asia yet), recent landed immigrants (No, we don't call them "aliens". That truly is not a Canadian term. It's "landed immigrant". Or "foreigner" if one truly doesn't have any formal papers to live in Canada temporarily. The term, "illegal aliens" is inaccurate in Canada. They are not extraterrestial creatures. :) The word "alien" if my history memory serves me right, was used for the Chinese immigrants in the early 1900's in North America.)

Even I was surprised by the numbers.. I will confirm anecdotally: I didn't see much of South Asian-Canadian cyclists at 5 different bike commuter locations throughout City of Vancouver, where I volunteered this spring and fall. Many do live out in the suburbs...where it's possible to buy the all-Canadian dream of a decent home and have a car.

There's a whole whack of outreach work on cycling ..if the interest isn't there already.

Sorry, I'm trying to make this cycling-related.

[lph]

As some of the folks on my local bike forum pointed out - the shocking thing is not that they voted 52 % against minarets, but that religious expression was considered an appropriate subject for a referendum.

It's not as if the opposite situation would be minarets popping up everywhere. I'm assuming here that they have similar laws concerning building, planning, noise pollution etc that would govern any new public building. But this isn't a political forum so I'll shut up.

Switzerland is very unusual in Europe, they have a lot of referendums. I don't know much about how it works in practice. Maybe alpinerabbit can tell us more.

[Tuckervill]

LPH, YES! That it is something to be discussed and voted on? Really?

I know there are bigots in the US. I live in the South. However, I think many of them have learned that they are in the minority, and they best keep their mouth shut. Most of them that I know express their opinions privately, and don't petition or campaign actively against other religions. There is a strong anti-illegals sentiment here, as Tom suggested, but I really think they're ignored until they can't be.

Karen

[channlluv]

I think all those comment sections just prove that there are a lot of really ignorant people in the world as yet, and they all seem to have access to the same Internet I do, which makes reading comment sections really frustrating.

Roxy

[bmccasland]

My Dad, bless his pointed head, is one of those who threw a royal hissy fit - forwarding some email trash to everyone he knew - complaining about the Celebrate Eiad (sp??) stamp. I pointed out that the stamp has been out for a while, as it's 42 cents, and postage is now 44 cents, and wasn't our country (USA) founded on religious freedom??

Funny he didn't reply, as he usually does.

For my sanity, I generally don't open his emails if I see his name as the sender and FW in the subject line. But that one snuck past my self-censorship.

This is the same man who explained to me why a black family was living in the house next to us on base in Michigan. We had just moved from Louisiana to Michigan (and I was entering 6th grade), and next to Major B., a pilot, who happened to be black. I remember Dad explaining that Major B. earned the right to live in officer's country and that the military didn't segregate neighborhoods. I've come to realize that Dad must have been siething inside - but on the outside he was singing the company song.

Yeah, he's my Dad, and I love him. Even if he's a real jerk sometimes.

[lph]

uurrh.. I have an elderly co-worker with a penchant for forwarding chain e-mails. They're usually harmless, but last time it was a "Do not forget the horrors of World War II"-thing, with lots of gory pictures, urging us all to pass it on. Most of it was earnest but acceptable as such (if maybe a little over-the-top for work), but there was also a totally ridiculous claim that British schools had stopped teaching about the Holocaust to avoid upsetting Muslim pupils.

I saw red, googled it to be sure of my facts, and the first hit I got was from a national newspaper telling how this claim was a hoax. I must admit I didn't just let it pass in silence, but sent a reply email to everyone who had got the first one saying that this claim was wrong, and suggesting they delete it if they wanted to pass the chain e-mail on.

I guess I'm the office busybody, but random unthinking bigotism like this just makes my blood boil.

[crazycanuck]

Beth, it's spelt Eid

What I didn't pay attention to was the Hajj is at the same time as US thanksgiving. Cool hey. The Hajj is one amazing festival!!!

What is really frightening...There are these T-shirts & stickers quite a few bogans wear with the slogan "F off We're full" in the shape of Australia. :eek:

[Trek420]

.... I know there are bigots in the US. I live in the South. However, I think many of them have learned that they are in the minority, and they best keep their mouth shut. Most of them that I know express their opinions privately, and don't petition or campaign actively against other religions.

As someone who considers myself thrice blessed; Jewish, Female and Gay I'm very aware of the existence of hate groups. The green dots/areas on the map below are people who pledged to stand up against hate.

The red dots are documented hate groups.

http://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

Pretty much everywhere. I've seen it, met it, lived it, hear it daily. Hate is very ugly .... be a green dot please :o

[KnottedYet]

I know there are bigots in the US. I live in the South. However, I think many of them have learned that they are in the minority, and they best keep their mouth shut. Most of them that I know express their opinions privately, and don't petition or campaign actively against other religions.

They just go to other churches on Sunday and kill people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting
Or go to other states and protest in front of other churches, schools, synagogues, and Jewish daycare centers. (including mine)
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/407211_hate0614.html

Kind of a bummer for the rest of us, really.
So we do things like this: http://www.standingonthesideoflove.org/

Knottedyet - very very proud to be a Unitarian.

[shootingstar]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/gthl/article/734837--violence-and-racial-slurs-on-the-rise-in-kids-hockey

Problems in today's minor hockey league in Greater Toronto area. And some of this is coming from spectators/parents...to kids on ice.

Ok...we can critique Switzerland but really, not to become too complacent here that life is rosy in North America.

[Grog]

I would jump to defend Switzerland in any conversation revolving around social/racial justice. I have seen some sad situations there, but I have seen sad and sadder situations elsewhere. (Haven't spend much time in Switzerland either.)

It is also important not to talk about "Western Europe" as a block. Each country is quite different from the next.

However, I think it is difficult for North Americans to appreciate the demographic situation of some European countries, and how far it is from the American melting pot or from Canadian multiculturalism. I do not know much about it, but I think it might compare to some extent to the fears associated with the rise of Latino culture in some U.S. States.

There definitely needs to be a lot of education on all sides....

[Tuckervill]

I take it all back.

Last night I went to our hometown Christmas parade. My town is home to a well-respected private Christian university. They think they own this town. In fact, the mayor said so, right before he started the parade. He said something to the effect that "this is a Christian town, thanks to the Christian University, and it's okay to say Merry CHRISTmas instead of Happy Holidays and our city should be celebrating CHRISTmas on Jesus' birthday because it's important that we maintain our freedoms..." yadayadayada. Lots of applause and high-fiving and amens.

Then I heard a story from a friend of mine who owns a local business. She said a homeless woman had been coming in her place and when my friend found out she was homeless she called the local Christian homeless shelter (it's the only one). They said they knew the woman in question and that "she didn't meet their criteria due to 'lifestyle' issues." Which basically means they won't help her because she's a lesbian! My friend (who is a transplant from Britain) replied, "Oh, so if she was a DOG we'd be able to give her a place to sleep at night?!" And now "they" are boycotting her business.

Yikes.
Karen

[shootingstar]

Then I heard a story from a friend of mine who owns a local business. She said a homeless woman had been coming in her place and when my friend found out she was homeless she called the local Christian homeless shelter (it's the only one). They said they knew the woman in question and that "she didn't meet their criteria due to 'lifestyle' issues." Which basically means they won't help her because she's a lesbian! My friend (who is a transplant from Britain) replied, "Oh, so if she was a DOG we'd be able to give her a place to sleep at night?!" And now "they" are boycotting her business.

Yikes.
Karen

Sad to hear this! Just wrong translation of Christian faith. I hope your friend remains steadfast and keeps her heart in the right place for others in need.

[KnottedYet]

He said something to the effect that "this is a Christian town, thanks to the Christian University, and it's okay to say Merry CHRISTmas instead of Happy Holidays and our city should be celebrating CHRISTmas on Jesus' birthday because it's important that we maintain our freedoms..." yadayadayada. Lots of applause and high-fiving and amens.


Then they should be celebrating Saturnalia now, and Jesus' birthday in June... cuz according to the bible (the timing of the census/tax ordered by Caesar, the sheep season and shepherds' work) Jesus was born in late June or early July.

Christians celebrated Christ's Mass during Saturnalia for several astute political reasons, but not because that is the time of year when Jesus was born. Many of the cultural things we consider traditionally "Christian" and "Christmas" are borrowed from pagan celebrations of solstice (including Saturnalia). It cracks me up when I see churches freaking about how there *should* be Christmas Trees up, because they are Christian symbols of Christ's Mass.... when a few decades ago they were just as vigorously condemning them for the pagan symbols they truly are.

(and let's not forget the Feast of Stephen.... which was the original celebration at this time of year. And Easter (name borrowed from the Roman goddess whose celebration in spring involved eggs and rabbits), don't even let me get started on Easter and The Last Supper (which was a Passover Seder cuz Jesus was a Jew, so really we SHOULD be celebrating Channukah right now) and all that.

As they say, "ignorance is bliss". But knowledge is so much more fun!

[Tuckervill]

Even many Christians of my acquaintance KNOW that Jesus was not born on December 25, but they choose to ignore this truth...okay, just don't get me started.

Karen

[bmccasland]

I still remember the look on my pastor's face when I asked him why we didn't celebrate Passover, since the last supper was really a Passover Sedar? Blubber blubber stutter.

Then I never could wrap my head around the whole communion thing, the symbolism of what you're drinking and eating. I can get sharing a meal, but that's not what they say in the standard liturgy.



So if "they" are going to outlaw types of architecture, how excactly are they going to write the rules? Or does that matter?

[Pax]

Saw this in an email this morning...seemed appropriate to the thread direction:



Letter from Jesus about Christmas --

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season. Maybe you've forgotten that I wasn't actually born during this time of the year and that it was some of your predecessors who decided to celebrate My birthday on what was actually a time of pagan festival. Although I do appreciate being remembered anytime.

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene on your own front lawn If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town.

Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it:

1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.

2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.

3. Instead of writing the President complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up. It will be nice hearing from you again.

4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.

5 Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her.

6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference.

7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families

8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary-- especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name.

9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don't know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in Me and they will make the delivery for you.

10. Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.

Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I'll help you, but the ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember:

I LOVE YOU,
JESUS

[OakLeaf]

Pax, that's terrific, thanks for that. :)

[cashmere]

I am truly disappointed in the swiss decision about the building of minarets, this is such a wrong decision and I can only hope it will be overturned with the next vote. I truly hope another group gets together, collects enough signature to have a new vote to overturn this one.
I would nevertheless like to correct some of the opinions offered here about the constitution of Switzerland and Germany. The right to freedom of faith, as is the freedom of speech is firmly embedded in both constitutions. The separation of church and state is in place, at least as firmly as in the US. Citizens who are a member of one of the major churches pay a tax which is collected by the state and disseminated to the respective church. Those who have a different faith or do not belong to any confession/church do not pay this tax. A large percentage of social services is provided by the state. Switzerland is one of the oldest democracies in the world, with a large number of decision made by a direct vote where all citizens can vote. A relatively small number of signatures is sufficient to initiate such a vote and I hope that this will be the way the minaret decision will be overturned. Neither Switzerland nor Germany are immigration countries in the way the US is for historical reasons, and still the percentage of foreigners living in Switzerland is around 20-25%. And 4 different languages coexist... although I would agree that it is not a "melting pot" in the way at least some regions in the US are.
in case you want to read up on the consitutions:

http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htm#I
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/sz00000_.html

I have to admit that I am someone who laughs about all the little things like the one mentioned about the lawn mower, but many of those are born out of the fact that people live rather close together.

happy riding.

[papaver]

I've thought alot about this one. I really hesitated to reply, but I have to. I'm the kind of person that respects everyones beliefs. I don't judge other people's way of living. And I expect the same of others. But that doesn't happen.

In cities like Brussels there are A LOT of muslims. In large parts of the city every westener has moved. Sometimes I have to go in these parts of the town and each and every time I'm harassed by the men. Why? Because I don't wear a veil. Sometimes they stand around you with 6 to 12 men at the same time, and I can tell you, it is NOT a nice feeling. They say I don't respect their religion. I'm sorry, but where is their respect for me?????

Now they want to announce their moments of prayer via megaphones. We really don't want that. It's like we're living in a muslim country and we're not.

In countries like Belgium, France, Holland there's a whole veil debate. Are they allowed to wear one at school? Or at work? It's a huge statement, you know. It's not like you're wearing a discrete cross or whatever.

I know quite a few Turkish and Moroccan girls and they are all forced to wear a veil. The men have become a lot more fanatic the last ten years or so. I've been to muslim countries and there the people are much more tolerant to Europeans and to women in general.

Last month a Moroccan girl was killed by her parents and their imman, her crime: she had a girlfriend. They tortured her with boiling water. There are quite a few 'murders for honour' here where brothers or fathers kill their sister because she doesn't want to marry the man of their choice or because she has a relationship with another boy.

There is absolutely NO integration whatsoever with the local population. They don't want to. They only go to their shops, pay with their native currency, you don't see them on TV. They just live on their island and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger...

So yes I can understand the Swiss population. I wish I didn't though.

[OakLeaf]

Honor killings are very common in the USA, they just don't call them by that name.

Women in the USA who wear less clothes than local standards of modesty dictate, are harrassed, and if they are raped there's rarely a prosecution or conviction. It's true that majority standards in the USA don't require the hair to be covered, but what is required to be covered is merely a technical detail. What happens to a woman if she doesn't, is not.

Some churches ring Angelus bells several times a day; others broadcast music before services and during holy seasons; a few have carrillons.

If you disregard the specific forms of a particular religion and look only at the substance, it's plain that fundamentalism is fundamentalism and misogyny is misogyny, and they really don't have anything to do with whatever Scripture they're using for cover.

[papaver]

Honor killings are very common in the USA, they just don't call them by that name. Well that didn't excisted here.

Women in the USA who wear less clothes than local standards of modesty dictate, are harrassed, and if they are raped there's rarely a prosecution or conviction. That is very uncommon here, people are used to see nudity.

It's true that majority standards in the USA don't require the hair to be covered, but what is required to be covered is merely a technical detail. What happens to a woman if she doesn't, is not.

Some churches ring Angelus bells several times a day; others broadcast music before services and during holy seasons; a few have carrillons.
Here it's not allowed anymore... only on very special occasions.

If you disregard the specific forms of a particular religion and look only at the substance, it's plain that fundamentalism is fundamentalism and misogyny is misogyny, and they really don't have anything to do with whatever Scripture they're using for cover.

Like I said, if there would have been mutual respect there would not have been this kind of debate. Belgium is a very liberal country where church and state are strictly divided. And we would like to keep it that way. In the seventies there were hardly any muslims here, now they represent about 10% of the population. It's going really really fast for us...

[lph]

In countries like Belgium, France, Holland there's a whole veil debate. Are they allowed to wear one at school? Or at work? It's a huge statement, you know. It's not like you're wearing a discrete cross or whatever.

I know quite a few Turkish and Moroccan girls and they are all forced to wear a veil. The men have become a lot more fanatic the last ten years or so. I've been to muslim countries and there the people are much more tolerant to Europeans and to women in general.


I wanted to jump in on this one, because there was recently a veil debate here in Norway too. Actually it's an ongoing issue, and I've been back and forth a million times.

There are girls in my son's class who never covered their hair before, but are doing so now as 11, 12-year olds. They're probably not forced to, but I'm guessing they are just told that this is how proper Muslim girls dress. To me it's not really a strong religious statement, but I do object a bit to the reverse, that it should be in any way improper for a 11-year old to have her hair visible. (btw I think the current norm here is that it's ok to cover your hair for religious reasons in class, but face veils are not ok, since they hinder communication.) And I heartily dislike the growing trend that these girls are not allowed to wear ordinary gym clothes for phys.ed., shower with the other girls, or go to overnight events. It seems to me that they are slowly being taught to feel shameful or insecure about perfectly normal events in any Norwegian teenagers life.

On the other hand there are plenty of Muslim women who proclaim that it's their own free choice to wear a veil to show respect for Islam. A policewoman recently applied to be allowed to wear a hair veil with her uniform. Which seems to be a harmless request, but it caused massive debate.

It's hard to draw the line between showing respect for other religions, but not accepting misogyny and indoctrination done in the name of that religion. It would be a lot easier if one could just forbid all religious expression one didn't like, but that is a bit too reminiscent of states we don't like to compare ourselves with.

And sometimes I can understand the traditionalists that move here and are shocked by how young Western women dress. I was out late in the centre of Oslo Sunday evening, and ended up walking behind 3 young women teetering along in the snow in very short skirts, thin stockings and high-heeled shoes. If my mother had seen them she would have wanted to scold them and send them home to change. But that is what living in a free society is all about - the right to dress like, ahem, wh0res, and not be harassed for it. Conversely I guess I should accept that women want to dress in full-coverage if they want to. But I sincerely wish that young girls could be left alone long enough to be able to truly make that decision for themselves.

[Thorn]

Thanks papaver and lph and oakleaf who pushed papaver's buttons...to me, you've put this into the perspective that I needed. As an American, I forget that I really don't live in as free and welcoming a society as I would like to think.

Founded by religious fundamentalists, in America a conservative religious environment still exists in the every day as oakleaf pointed out. To some that is proper; to others, it has made the concept of dealing with fanaticism an every day occurrence. Both sides of us see the mineret law as troubling (as evidenced that this thread has remained and not been pulled) because it seems to us to stifle freedom.

However, if you live in a country where the religious fundamentalists are not as vocal and are a much, much smaller population, to suddenly have a conservative religious environment thrust upon you has to be scarey. Heck, I'll admit, the religious right's influence in politics scares the heck out of me, but they've been scaring me for way too many years. Would I have voted to constrain them? Don't know. I have too much American-baggage to know, but thanks papaver and lph for helping me see that.

[shootingstar]

I wanted to jump in on this one, because there was recently a veil debate here in Norway too. Actually it's an ongoing issue, and I've been back and forth a million times.

There are girls in my son's class who never covered their hair before, but are doing so now as 11, 12-year olds. They're probably not forced to, but I'm guessing they are just told that this is how proper Muslim girls dress. To me it's not really a strong religious statement, but I do object a bit to the reverse, that it should be in any way improper for a 11-year old to have her hair visible. (btw I think the current norm here is that it's ok to cover your hair for religious reasons in class, but face veils are not ok, since they hinder communication.) And I heartily dislike the growing trend that these girls are not allowed to wear ordinary gym clothes for phys.ed., shower with the other girls, or go to overnight events. It seems to me that they are slowly being taught to feel shameful or insecure about perfectly normal events in any Norwegian teenagers life.

On the other hand there are plenty of Muslim women who proclaim that it's their own free choice to wear a veil to show respect for Islam. A policewoman recently applied to be allowed to wear a hair veil with her uniform. Which seems to be a harmless request, but it caused massive debate.

It's hard to draw the line between showing respect for other religions, but not accepting misogyny and indoctrination done in the name of that religion. It would be a lot easier if one could just forbid all religious expression one didn't like, but that is a bit too reminiscent of states we don't like to compare ourselves with.

And sometimes I can understand the traditionalists that move here and are shocked by how young Western women dress.

Of course what complicates all of this, is the 'freedom' that parents want to have to raise their children according to their interpretation of values. Seen as a private manner until child is hurt or child ventures into the public realm.

The face veil for some fundamentalist Muslim women, is probably the most complicated matter in terms of clothing cover-up, in the public sphere. I have no problem with headcoverings and neck-to-foot coverup IF the woman wants it and she feels greater freedom to be judged by her character vs. her body. It can be (not always) an expression of feminism that's very real and assertive.

It actually continues to amaze me, a non-religious person, to see some working women who wear tops that show overtly decolletage. What for? I went to a job interview months ago, where 3 women interviewed me. One of them wore a low-scooped t-shirt with a neckline that showed half of her decolletage. I don't get this--at all. :confused: She was an info. tech. manager so maybe that's an expression of her self-confidence in what used to be a traditionally male-dominant industry. I don't know. Do men who are fit, walk around in muscle t-shirts in office to show their biceps?

--From a woman who wears her cycling jerseys looser even if she's decently fit/slim. Who hasn't worn any low-backed sundresses over last 15 yrs. :o:p
________________________________________________

I become cautious or even suspicious whenever I see repeatedly tv and photo images in some countries, where it's crowds of MEN protesting or just hanging out en masse, in a friendly way having coffee or chatting up on the streets. Where ARE the women in those tv/photo images I ask myself,....doing all the childcare/housework at home or grocery shopping? Cloistered at home?

The issue of just building a mosque in Switzerland...is now overblown by the voting Swiss. They weren't voting on use of the call to prayer. It was just building more mosques.

To address to papaver, who felt uncomfortable stared at by some men who looked other than Christian/white, I would ask yourself if you would feel the same wandering into a predominantly black /AFro-American neighbourhood.

It's a perception of feeling threatened, suddenly looking highly visible because you are "different".

I am willing to bet papaver you would have been safe 99% of the time you were there at that time of the day. After all, you are in Brussels (or whatever city in Belgium)

[papaver]

It's not staring, it's really verbally harassing. It has happened numerous times and not only to me, but to my colleagues as well. And I'm not exactly dressed in high heels and a short skirt either. :(

I would gladly avoid that neighborhood but that's just not possible. It's unfortunate that extremism leads to extremism.

And I know they were voting against the minarets and not to the call to prayer... that is in MY country, not in Switzerland.

Trust me, I don't mind staring, I don't mind being the only white on the block. I really don't care, but I do care when a bunch of men form a circle around me and start threatening me because I don't wear a veil.

[lph]

I would gladly avoid that neighborhood but that's just not possible. It's unfortunate that extremism leads to extremism.

It is very unfortunate :( I know that if I had experienced this sort of thing often I would be a lot more sceptical myself.

I would like to be able to say that this kind of harassment is an example of the worst part of male-dominated culture in some Muslim countries, and not an expression of Islam in itself. But it niggles at me that Islam does seem to be fundamentally less tolerant of female rights. I would like to be proved wrong. There are certainly Muslim countries and many many Muslims that are tolerant, modern and pro equal rights.

Regards the call to prayer: somebody mentioned somewhere that this is generally not allowed in Europe, I presume purely for disturbance reasons. I don't know if this is correct but fwiw, I have never heard a call to prayer outdoors anywhere except in Muslim countries.

Don't we have any Muslim women here who could give us a note from their point of view? That would be really interesting.

[Tuckervill]

In cities like Brussels there are A LOT of muslims. In large parts of the city every westener has moved. Sometimes I have to go in these parts of the town and each and every time I'm harassed by the men. Why? Because I don't wear a veil. Sometimes they stand around you with 6 to 12 men at the same time, and I can tell you, it is NOT a nice feeling. They say I don't respect their religion. I'm sorry, but where is their respect for me?????

Now they want to announce their moments of prayer via megaphones. We really don't want that. It's like we're living in a muslim country and we're not.

In countries like Belgium, France, Holland there's a whole veil debate. Are they allowed to wear one at school? Or at work? It's a huge statement, you know. It's not like you're wearing a discrete cross or whatever.

I know quite a few Turkish and Moroccan girls and they are all forced to wear a veil. The men have become a lot more fanatic the last ten years or so. I've been to muslim countries and there the people are much more tolerant to Europeans and to women in general.

Last month a Moroccan girl was killed by her parents and their imman, her crime: she had a girlfriend. They tortured her with boiling water. There are quite a few 'murders for honour' here where brothers or fathers kill their sister because she doesn't want to marry the man of their choice or because she has a relationship with another boy.

There is absolutely NO integration whatsoever with the local population. They don't want to. They only go to their shops, pay with their native currency, you don't see them on TV. They just live on their island and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger...

So yes I can understand the Swiss population. I wish I didn't though.

Okay, this is getting further to the point of my distress over the minarets. Minarets are just a SYMBOL of this kind of behavior, I'm to presume?

But, aren't these behaviors prosecutable under current law? Is it legal in Belgium for a large group of men to harass a woman on the street? (How frightening that must have been!) Is it legal to disturb the peace with loud announcements? (We have church bells here and no one seems to mind them--and they don't even call anyone to anything. They're just for fun!)

Why don't the citizens of Brussels call the police on this behavior, and control it with existing laws? Is it too far gone? Do the police ignore the complaints? What?

Karen

[papaver]

what can they do? There's just verbal violence. In those streets there are no more local people. And the ones that do stay there, keep very very quiet.

There are some area's in Brussels the police won't even go any more. It's just too dangerous.

It hasn't always been like that, you know. When I lived in Gent there was a large population of muslims too. And there was never a problem, the muslim girls at my school never wore veils. It since the last 10 years or so that they became so radical.

[Tuckervill]

As "visitors" to your country, you'd think they'd be a little more careful about what they do. Maybe they don't fear being deported enough.

I'd have a real hard time with knowing there are parts of town the police WON'T go into. Sounds like they're just giving up, to me.

Karen

[OakLeaf]

(We have church bells here and no one seems to mind them--and they don't even call anyone to anything. They're just for fun!)

Angelus bells are a call to prayer; bells are rung on Sundays to call parishioners to worship, and some churches ring their tower bells as the Sanctus bells during the Mass. I don't think your local clergy would consider the bells and music "just for fun." Your non-Christian neighbors might not mind the bells - as I, a non-Muslim, enjoy hearing the adhan - but I can see how any of those might offend some people.

Wearing a veil is no more an "ostentatious trapping of religion" than wearing a shirt. It's a cultural standard of modesty.

I acknowledged before that secularism in Europe is very different from secularism in the USA. If churches aren't allowed steeples, then sorta fine - sorta, just because no one actually is building new churches, and fundamentalist Christians could safely enact such a law without it ever actually affecting them. But when different standards are applied depending on the race and religion of the people they're applied against, that's when I start to have a problem. And when immigrants and the children and grandchildren of immigrants are treated as "visitors" with rights subordinate to the native born - just as Mexican-Americans are here - that, I have a problem with, too.

[Grog]

As "visitors" to your country, you'd think they'd be a little more careful about what they do. Maybe they don't fear being deported enough.


I am not quite sure what you mean, but certainly "immigrants" are not "visitors" and the children of "immigrants" in most countries are called "citizens" and should definitely not have to fear deportation. (To say nothing of naturalized immigrants.) Immigration is crucial for the future of Western countries, if only because we have a lot more old people than young people, and someone needs to work and keep the economy going. Countries like Canada and a number of European countries have assertive immigration policies, and depend on the influx of people from other countries.

I am not Muslim, but if I was, I would think twice before posting to this thread. This is not an easy topic to address, even more so if one feels personally connected to it (as Papaver and LPH mention).

I definitely do not agree with it, but I can very well understand how Islam became radicalized these last few years, and how the opposite point of view is getting equally radical, and how the escalation is hurting all of us. It worries me quite a bit, actually.

[papaver]

I definitely do not agree with it, but I can very well understand how Islam became radicalized these last few years, and how the opposite point of view is getting equally radical, and how the escalation is hurting all of us. It worries me quite a bit, actually.

It worries me a lot too. Because for now, there is no solution.

I want to point out that I'm not against Islam. Nor any other religion. But I'm saddened by the fact that some individuals abuse their religion to show their disrespect to others. Aggression leads to more aggression, and where does it all end? It's sad because hundreds of years ago, Islam was very respectful towards women. A lot more than catholicism was in those days. I have no problem with women chosing for a veil, but unfortunately at least 50% are forced into wearing one. And that's 50% too many.

[Tuckervill]

Angelus bells are a call to prayer; bells are rung on Sundays to call parishioners to worship, and some churches ring their tower bells as the Sanctus bells during the Mass. I don't think your local clergy would consider the bells and music "just for fun." Your non-Christian neighbors might not mind the bells - as I, a non-Muslim, enjoy hearing the adhan - but I can see how any of those might offend some people.

Wearing a veil is no more an "ostentatious trapping of religion" than wearing a shirt. It's a cultural standard of modesty.

I acknowledged before that secularism in Europe is very different from secularism in the USA. If churches aren't allowed steeples, then sorta fine - sorta, just because no one actually is building new churches, and fundamentalist Christians could safely enact such a law without it ever actually affecting them. But when different standards are applied depending on the race and religion of the people they're applied against, that's when I start to have a problem. And when immigrants and the children and grandchildren of immigrants are treated as "visitors" with rights subordinate to the native born - just as Mexican-Americans are here - that, I have a problem with, too.

Except, these are on the Baptist churches. There is one Catholic church in my town (20,000 people), and it's so far away from any residences or businesses that no one would hear the bells if they rang them (the church does have a bell on top of it, which I recall from my exploration of Catholicism in the '90s is used in certain rites and ceremonies). "Just for fun" was a little flip, but bells on churches are really just "traditional" here--not used for any real purpose.

Karen

[Tuckervill]

I am not quite sure what you mean, but certainly "immigrants" are not "visitors" and the children of "immigrants" in most countries are called "citizens" and should definitely not have to fear deportation. (To say nothing of naturalized immigrants.) Immigration is crucial for the future of Western countries, if only because we have a lot more old people than young people, and someone needs to work and keep the economy going. Countries like Canada and a number of European countries have assertive immigration policies, and depend on the influx of people from other countries.

I am not Muslim, but if I was, I would think twice before posting to this thread. This is not an easy topic to address, even more so if one feels personally connected to it (as Papaver and LPH mention).

I definitely do not agree with it, but I can very well understand how Islam became radicalized these last few years, and how the opposite point of view is getting equally radical, and how the escalation is hurting all of us. It worries me quite a bit, actually.

I believe absolutely SOMETHING should happen to large groups of men who surround and harass non-Muslim women [eta: and Muslim women for that matter] in Brussels, immigrants or not. If deportation is the answer, let them be deported. Even if it's just "verbal violence". What is wrong with their justice system?!?

If I were walking through a neighborhood in a large, densely populated city, say, like Memphis where I used to live, and had to run that gauntlet, you can bet I would be calling the police! Why give up and let it happen to the next person? Why let them get away with it? And WHY, instead of creating a whole category of what is basically "architectural discrimination" :D in your laws, why not enforce the existing laws designed to prevent violence and disturbing the peace?

That's my whole question.

And by the way, non-naturalized citizens, in the US at least, do not enjoy the complete smorgasbord of freedoms that the rest of us do. They can be deported. If the justice system has this option at their disposal, then I don't see the harm in using it when appropriate.

Karen

[Trek420]

bells on churches are really just "traditional" here--not used for any real purpose.

Karen

.... except funding the church these days :rolleyes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/technology/cellphones-ring-out-with-the-help-of-a-steeple.html

[crazycanuck]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8417076.stm

[shootingstar]

what can they do? There's just verbal violence. In those streets there are no more local people. And the ones that do stay there, keep very very quiet.

There are some area's in Brussels the police won't even go any more. It's just too dangerous.

It hasn't always been like that, you know. When I lived in Gent there was a large population of muslims too. And there was never a problem, the muslim girls at my school never wore veils. It since the last 10 years or so that they became so radical.

The harassin' guys are just like...um...sorry, like some of the white guys I encountered on my way to work out to the suburbs last year. There are transit police (hired by the transit authority with legal powers to arrest and charge) floating around...at the stations..not on the bus. I felt sorry for a Sikh Translink bus driver (he wore a turban) who withstood the harrassment of 3 white folks, 2 guys and 1 gal who called him a raghead and refused to pay the bus fare. I tried to defend the guy, but the harrassers just turned at me with enormous hate in their eyes, to 'go back to where I was from'.

Well perhaps the Brussels police can learn alot from contacting the City of Toronto or City of Vancouver police or any of the major U.S. police departments who who have decades more experience than some of the European countries, of what hasn't or has worked on how the police can work more effectively with community leaders. There does have to customized public outreach programs at the grassroots level to specific groups in specific languages.

Such working partnerships are long-term, not shotgun (pardon the pun) whenever a 'problem' arises. And often this needs to be done with social worker/social work agency serving those community groups.

I'm saying this....because prior to cycling, for several years I was an active national board member for a major organization with a mandate on race relations ..coming from those of Chinese descent in Canada. Our organization worked at improving long-term relationships with Toronto police after perceived problems of crime, etc. among a tiny handful of folks in a large group of ordinary residents. The situation was being overblown in the local and national news.
_______________________________________________________________

The actions of a couple folks who are perceived as temporary workers or non-citizens, should NEVER be applied to the entire community. Yet this happens often without proper information. And do we know all the harrassing guys are temporary workers?
_____________________________________________________________

To my understanding, here in Canada, 'naturalized' Canadian citizen...means someone born in Canada. One acquires Canadian citizenship automatically.

An immigrant (who has applied through the normal paperwork and check process, then approved by federal government) must apply for permant resident status ...to get their permanent resident card after they land in Canada. A landed immigrant and permanent resident must pay taxes just like Canadians.

Then to be eligible to apply for Canadian citizenship, they must be a resident in Canada at minimum for 3 years before applying. After applying, there is a test on applicant's knowledge about Canadian symbols, history, concepts. Before citizenship is officially granted.
_______________________________________________________________

thanks for latest BBC newslink, crazycanuck.

[tulip]

In the US, naturalized means that you were not born in the US and that you became a citizen later.

[KnottedYet]

In the US, naturalized means that you were not born in the US and that you became a citizen later.

"Naturalized" means the exact same thing in Canada: not born in Canada and you became a citizen later.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/concepts/definitions/citizenship-citoyennete-eng.htm

[shootingstar]

I need to look again at definitions. :)

Easier to refer myself as a CBC (either it's a Canadian Broadcasting Corp., that is funded in part by federal Canadian govn't and with partial Canadian content or Canadian-born Chinese).

In the U.S., it's ABC (same parallels). :)

I'm not that negative about fundamentalism for Islam occurring in North America nor European. Simply because the next generation in order to survive, does end up assimilating over time, if their parents/older generations do not. Which several generations later...alot is forgotten for good, unfortunately. Every culture/language has good stuff worth keeping.

Assimilation forces are quite strong. And applicable for some (not all) women who might appear confined in a very patriarchical, fundamentalist family situation, but living in Europe or North America. At least the chances of her being heard for help outside of her community, are greater with less societal ostracization. It does take enormous personal courage and perseverance for these women to break free from tradition.

So for now, promoting exercise, if it includes cycling, for Muslim women in traditional garb, is still a good idea. :)

For papaver, would still lodge a complaint with local police...even if they do nothing it's on paper in their log. If they don't have the data over time, there's less evidence for them to be proactive.

[tc1]

Community outreach is nice and warm and fuzzy, but you should also call the law on the harassers. Community outreach also takes a long time, and works for those who are more inclined to be cooperative.

Organized rides through the problem areas. Make sure the rides are mixed gender, so that your message is that society supports your right to go where you wish. Bring the press.

In the US we have had trouble with fundamentalists of all persuasions. Most of the time (at least the stuff that makes the news) the authorities are far too hands-off regarding violations of the law. The best thing the US could do to solve our problem with this is to take away the tax-exempt status of all religious organizations, except for the funds used for charitable work. Missionary work is not charitable work, either.

[crazycanuck]

A long ramble on a hot summer afternoon

Here's something from today's paper regarding minarets in a local area (to me anyways)...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/bias-denied-as-swan-valley-mosque-rejected/story-e6frg6nf-1225811534888

The same thing occurred out in Camden,NSW-the locals didn't want an Islamic school (high school??) in thier country community & fought it in court by focusing on...local planning laws. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/township-residents-win-two-year-fight-as-islamic-school-ruled-out/story-e6frg6o6-1225720528855

Regarding large groups of (insert nationality/religious persuasion here) people harassing anyone really..it's not just women. The problem is...many cultures have created enclaves & reside only in that area for whatever reason. For example...many brits only live north of the river in Perth, many Koreans & South Africans live only on the North Shore in Auckland, many East Asian folks live in Millwoods in Edmonton..but I have no clue why.. These are friendly examples & no one cares who lives where and everyone gets along quite peachy keenly.

BUT...it's a different story in Europe & even parts of Sydney/Melbourne

The reason certain folk can't go into a certain area is because they're not part of that "culture".. Lawmakers etc are too afraid of upsetting anyone because it's not politically correct. What a bunch of bunk.

Read " Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali or look up Theo Van Gough...

I reckon it's the same situation in the (deep)Southern US in terms of African American/Caucasion relations. If you're X you don't go into X area..plain & simple. Then & possibly now.

Doesn't take a genius to relate it all together. Same same..

[Irulan]

Recommended reading.

Nine Parts of Desire:The Hidden World of Islamic Women by journalist Geraldine Brooks.

Link to Amazon reviews (http://www.amazon.com/Nine-Parts-Desire-Hidden-Islamic/dp/0385475772/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261156016&sr=8-5)

Ms. Brooks has spent much time in Islamic countries and this is book is the result of being taking into families homes and interviewing Islamic women from many varied aspects of Islamic religion and culture. The stories are of Islamic women, their values and experience, both from the point of view of women who have taken up the veil of their own choice
and women who have moved away from it.

It seems like a lot of the posters here are running their opinions through their own cultural filters, and making what to me are somewhat inappropriate judgments on how other people choose to live their religious life or manage the religious life of their families. Just because you don't like it or don't approve of it, or think it's oppressive, doesn't make it bad or wrong. This could be said in general for any one of differing religious practice or political belief.... I am specifically speaking of wearing the veil or the culture of modesty. It blew my mind to read the interviews of women who have made this choice ( to wear the veil) independently, and why they did it, and why they like it.

back to lurking.

[lph]

Since I'm the one who brought up veils, I'll answer quickly. I have no doubt that I'm running things through my own cultural filters. I have no trouble with grown women choosing to wear veils of their own accord. More power to them. I do have trouble accepting that young girls are pushed to do so once they reach a certain age, and have modesty standards set for them that don't match those of their brothers, even when the country they live in doesn't require it in any way.

I'd like to read that book, it sounds interesting. But otherwise I'll back out quietly from this, I've already brought up more religion than this forum is maybe supposed to harbour :) Thanks for the calm discussion so far!

[OakLeaf]

As long as you'd be as happy and proud posting a picture on the Internet of your hypothetical 11(?)-year-old daughter shirtless as you were of your son ...

(Who is a great-looking kid and I wasn't offended by seeing him shirtless at all. But you get my point.)

[Tuckervill]

I dunno, I was pretty regularly topless in the swimming pool at 11. And, when all three of my sons were about that age, they didn't really want to go into the pool without a shirt on!

I don't mind seeing children in all states of dress and undress (in a motherly way!), but posting them on the internet (like some of my kids' male friends have pics of themselves on FB and Myspace with no shirts on) just gives the pervs more material than they need.

Karen

[lph]

As long as you'd be as happy and proud posting a picture on the Internet of your hypothetical 11(?)-year-old daughter shirtless as you were of your son ...

(Who is a great-looking kid and I wasn't offended by seeing him shirtless at all. But you get my point.)

Good point, OakLeaf. I do get it, but I don't think it's really a fair comparison. Wearing a top for women is in most countries (unfortunately, I'd say) not a question of choice. And as far as I've understood, wearing a veil is.

[crazycanuck]

Sorry to keep this thread going....I came across this from today's Independent
:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/my-people-refuse-to-talk-about-honour-killings-1845103.html

[shootingstar]

Sorry to keep this thread going....I came across this from today's Independent
:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/my-people-refuse-to-talk-about-honour-killings-1845103.html

So glad he is speaking out from within the community about what happened to his sister.

I firmly believe real change...comes from within a community. Article also shows real effort by police in U.K. to spot certain things even if there needs to be more reporting.

I also think that honor killing, like other terrible things ie. some Chinese girl babies given away at birth (or worse), to orphanages in China...happens but not as frequently as outsiders think. It's always the minority from within a community, who do the violent, other crap that makes the vast peace-loving majority look guilty/bad, etc.

And I'm glad they photographed the outspoken person who is speaking out against honour killing of his sister, to be someone wearing turban. What a person traditionally wears does not truly define his/her define thoughts, intellect and how to the person lives out their religious beliefs.

While lruan rightfully does say we put our cultural blinders and filters, on a differernt cultural /religious practice, this is my take:

I absolutely acknowledge my cultural filter and as someone who's mother is a picture bride where she never met her husband prior to marriage, I do have a personal opinion what can or cannot work within traditional confines. She was also extremely lucky to have married a guy who was/is kind to her, etc.

Earlier in this thread, CC gave article on some residents protesting construction of an Islamic high school in their Australian region. Now how on earth, is that any different than a traditional Mennonite high school in Ontario..('course it tends to out in the country)? I visited one with my conservative Mennonite friend (who wears a white cap on her hairbun and always, always wears dressses and dark pantyhose, even when its 90 degrees F). We dropped by a graduation picnic. The girls were playing baseball, in their dresses, pantyhose and running shoes.

My friend is only one of 3 who remained conservative Mennonite, other is an older sister. Remaining 5 siblinigs left the Mennonite fold voluntarily. And their children many are not religious at all....but because there is regular extended family contact for this Mennonite family, these non-Mennonite/non-religious children/next generation are respectful to Mennonites and others who are "different". I have met her nieces and nephews at various family functions. Forces of assimilation are powerful...over the generations in North America.

What I am trying to say how much personal, frequent exposure a person has to progressive plus traditional/fundamental folks of a particular community, really helps one learn that a fundamentalist-looking community, has many shades of grey/interpretations.

Otherwise some outsiders or people whose family members not from a culture/religion, etc. will never get over their "fear".

[OakLeaf]

I also think that honor killing, like Chinese girl babies given away at birth to orphanages in China...happens but not as frequently as outsiders think.

IMO it's just the opposite. There have been at least a dozen honor killings among white, almost certainly Christian families in Ohio alone just in the past year. It's just that the press in predominantly Christian countries calls them "honor killings" when they're committed by Muslims, and nothing at all when they're committed by Christians or people of other religions. :mad::mad:

[shootingstar]

IMO it's just the opposite. There have been at least a dozen honor killings among white, almost certainly Christian families in Ohio alone just in the past year. It's just that the press in predominantly Christian countries calls them "honor killings" when they're committed by Muslims, and nothing at all when they're committed by Christians or people of other religions. :mad::mad:

So presumably, in the press, these dozen killings in Christian families are merely reported as domestic violence, /family member murder/homicide?

Thx for the reminder.

[Thorn]

A new perspective on the saga (I want to fly to Switzerland just to hug him)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126264916012115609.html


In November, Switzerland voted to ban the construction of new minarets, the towerlike structures that adorn mosques. A week or so later, in an apparent act of defiance, a new minaret unexpectedly sprang up here.

But the new minaret is not attached to a mosque; this small town near Geneva doesn't even have one. And it's not the work of a local Muslim outraged by Switzerland's controversial vote to ban the structures, which often are used to launch the call to prayer.

.Instead, Bussigny's minaret is attached to the warehouse of a shoe store called Pomp It Up, which is part of a Swiss chain. It was erected by the chain's owner, Guillaume Morand, who fashioned it out of plastic and wood and attached it to a chimney. The new minaret, nearly 20 feet high and illuminated at night, is clearly visible from the main highway connecting Lausanne and Geneva.