falling child (long vent of sorts)

[kenyonchris]

My DBF, who is a roadie, has a sweet little girl who likes to ride. She is a young 8. This makes him no end of happy, he is a great dad and is super proud of her.
I have far more experience on the mountain bike than he does. She has just started (like one day) in clips. He thinks she would be better off learning the mountain bike in SPDs, I think she would be better off on platforms since she needs to be able to put a foot down. Her first MTB experience was a rocky one.
He has the best of intentions, but I don't think (because he is big and strong) that he realizes how much more difficult it is for someone who is not as strong or experienced as he is.
What you all think?

[Chile Pepper]

Wow. I have an 8yo and an 11yo. It never occurred to me to put them on clipless pedals. They're troupers, but falling off hurts, even when you start off close to the ground. If faced with a choice between falling that much and not cycling, I would guess they would chose not to cycle.

[kermit]

I agree with you 100%. If it isn't fun for her she will not want to ride and at worst get hurt when she panics at a hill or bump and can't unclip. With platforms she can get off and walk when she wants too and can also put a foot down when she is about to fall. She IS a tough girl ( women are tougher than men after all) and it sounds like she wants to hang with you. This would be a good opportunity to have some girl time and play with the platforms without dad being there to make her nervous. I am sure she wants to please him and that is why she busted her butt to try. Sounds like a super cool kid! Good luck with this one!

[Kalidurga]

Sounds as if your BF has the best intentions in the world, but unfortunately can't see the situation from her perspective. And it sounds as if all you can do is to keep on gently suggesting either more clipless practice on grass or in a parking lot, or platforms temporarily put back on the mtb. And to give tons of encouragement to the tough little chickie. Tell her we all think she's really awesome.

[OakLeaf]

I've been riding clipless on road bikes (on and off) since 1987. And before that, with cleated toe clips and all that that entails.

I don't mountain bike, but some friends have been trying to get me into it. If I do, there is no way I'm starting out clipless.

+1 to Kermit.

[lph]

I'd say this depends a whole lot on the child. If she's the forceful type who will yell and scream and complain but never give up and do it anyway, you might get away with clips. If she's anything at all like my son (and me) - make it easy, as easy as it gets. I learn best from automating the things I can do easily and well before trying the things I can juuust manage, and I learn nothing at all from the things that are just a bit too hard.

[channlluv]

I think this little girl is amazing for even trying, and for getting that far in clipless shoes her first time off-road. Holy cow, she must be an athletically talented child.

I think her dad needs to really listen to his daughter and let her choose how she'd best like to learn. It's okay to go with platform pedals, for heaven's sake. She's eight. The last thing she needs to do at this developmental stage is break the growth plate in her ankle or something because she's not able to unclip in time to get her foot down safely.

(A friend of DD's broke the growth plate in his left foot in a roller skating accident last Spring and is still suffering mobility issues. He's 11, and a very active 11 at that, before he broke his ankle.)

I hope you can convince BF to have some patience with her here.

Roxy

[kenyonchris]

My sweet BF is great, he is such a great dad and she totally wants to please him. I think he doesn't realize that those of us smaller and not as strong don't ride the same way as he does. He is amazingly proud of her (as he should be).

It was a great idea for me to take her out on her own some and surprise him with her skills once she has a chance to practice. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't way off base and that learning in clips would be more beneficial to her in the long run.

Thanks, ya'll!

[Biciclista]

i'm with the go with platform pedals team. If someone had done that to me at the same age I just flat wouldn't have tried it! she really is a trouper and really wants to please her dad. But she'll have a lot more fun on easier trails AND platform pedals.

My sons rode a double century ages 11 and 13 with platform pedals. They did very well. had a great time. why complicate something like that? like someone else said; falling hurts!

[artifactos]

I vote platform pedals, too. Clipless and difficult trails will most likely discourage her from riding for "fun," especially if she's already doing it to please her dad. She will eventually see it as work, and that day will come faster if she has a few harsh falls riding clipless.

Let her push herself, rather than letting her father push her. If she requests harder trails or clipless pedals, let her try them.. but if she just wants to go out and ride for fun, she should be able to. She's only 8 years old! She's got DECADES to ride clipless or work her way up to harder trails, and she only has so many years for her bones to develop without extremely detrimental injuries.

[MartianDestiny]

Those little tiny bikes are enough of a disadvantage. They are heavy for their size, the little wheels just don't roll over stuff, and the gears are clumsy and often inferrior equipment.

There is of course good reason for all of that, so I don't fault the bikes.

But there's simply going to be hills she cannot make it up, logs she cannot make it over, etc. But she should be TRYING to make up up and over these things.

That's not going to happen clipless as she'll be trapped, not able to just drop a foot, etc. There will be a lot more walking if she's got clipless on her bike than if she didn't and it could make her skiddish of things she shouldn't be.

By all means, if she's comfortable enough on a bike to be getting used to clipless on a MUT or road ride, let her. Mountain biking is a whole nother animal. Stops won't be planned and you can't always keep your momentum.

I agree with you, and I mountain bike in clipless pedals (though some days I wonder why...)

A compromise would be to get her a good set of BMX or mountain bike pedals with the studs and an appropriate pair of shoes (designed to go with them, like skate shoes). This will negate a lot of the problems with standard flats (her feet will stick to the pedals as opposed to flying off). If you go this route though I highly recommend a good set of shin guards as the pedals will tear her up without them.

[kenyonchris]

Those little tiny bikes are enough of a disadvantage. They are heavy for their size, the little wheels just don't roll over stuff, and the gears are clumsy and often inferrior equipment.

There is of course good reason for all of that, so I don't fault the bikes.



Boy, you are right about that. Her little Fuji road bike is heavier than my F/S MTB, her MTB is even heavier. She has no concept of gearing, she has to stop to change gears. I kind of think the trail is premature for her at all except for the very easiest, smoothest little loops.

[shootingstar]

Good grief, she's 8.

Platform pedals will make her feel truly free at this stage of her growing body that is exploring.

Above all, important that she must feel she's having fun...and not pleasing anyone, but herself. Otherwise, she won't continue to bike lots, get better on bike (because she's having fun) and do lots on bike on her own later.

We all know how important it is to have FUN and feel FREE at ..every stage of cycling life.

I agree with Mimi, that children when they are enthused, they can have some incredible stamina because they think it's fun

[Kiwi Stoker]

I agree with everything said above about not pushing things.

Here in NZ there is a huge surge in BMX (race) riding (especially with it now an Olympic sport). I know that they start kids out young in it and at some point they use clipless pedals. BMX bikes are heaps lighter and don't have gears and yet they still can go very fast and go over jumps and curves- maybe BMX is something to explore or look at for advice.

Our Double World Champion Sarah Walker started when she was twelve (she's now 19) and has already competed at Beijing (she was piped at the post for 3rd).

Just found this small bit about clipless pedals and BMX racing. Looks like most countries don't allow it until they are in their late teens.

BRITISH BMX REMAINS CLIPLESS
On the 26th January 2002, the British Cycling BMX Commission discussed
the use of Clipless Pedals for BMX Racing. This came as a result of a
ban introduced in France and Germany for U13 riders and by the UEC for
U16 riders. Following a meeting in Frankfurt it was revealed that no
firm evidence or reports have been collected as to the long term effect
of clipless pedal use in BMX racing. The Australian Federation have
collected data on crashes during racing which seems to indicate that
riders wearing clipless pedals are potentially more seriously injured
than riders with "Flat" pedals, but again the long term effects have not
been investigated and the exact details of the research were not
available. The UCI (world governing body) has not taken any action but
is monitoring the situation. Taking this information into account the
BC BMX Commission will not be taking any immediate action to ban the use
of clipless pedals in BMX racing in the UK in 2002. The commission will
continue to monitor the situation and will review the situation as and
when any new information comes to light. In the meantime the commission
will be seeking advice from the pedal manufactures (Shimano, Odyssey,
Wellgo, etc.) on their recommendations for pedal settings for various
age groups and weights (as per ski bindings). It is therefore the
responsibility of riders and parents/guardians at this stage to make the
decision as to whether to use clipless pedals or not.

[pinkbikes]

I agree with all that has been said. My DD is 11yo now and has been riding bikes on and off for her whole life. She currently has a Trek 3700, so not a particularly expensive MTB, which she has had for about a year. This is heaps lighter than her last bike though (a BigW special) and this made a huge difference to her willingness to ride, especially up hills! She took to gears like a duck to water (not sure how) and has ridden a few trails with us but does turn into a bit of a wuss when things get rough. I wouldn't dream of putting her into clipless pedals on the trail yet.

That being said, she has twice ridden on the tandem with me for a 9day tour and has shown a keen interest in growing into my road bike! At first on the tandem we had flat pedals for her, but quickly replaced them with toeclips because her feet would slip off the pedals if I changed cadence and she had difficulty getting them back on the pedals before they clunked her in the shins.:(

This year we replaced the toeclips with clipless pedals (spd with the plastic surround) because we had a spare pair in the cupboard and I found a really cheap pair of shoes online. It really made it a quicker process getting on and off the bike without all the fiddling with straps while I stood there balancing the bike!:)

It was incredible how quickly she has picked up using the clipless pedals and I think riding the tandem on the road with that extra element of support and security from me helped smooth the learning process. She is now very keen to have her flats on her MTB replaced with the clipless pedals for everyday riding (not on the trails though yet).

I will probably put our other spare set of spds onto her MTB and put the flats off the MTB onto my roadbike so that she can get used to the roadbike without clips first. When I think she is safe on the roadbike with clips I will put spd pedals on it - partly because they take less muscle for little girls to engage and disengage than road (spd-sl) clipless pedals, but also because then I only have to keep one set of bike shoes up to her growing feet!!:)

So... if there is a message in all this, it would be...

- Don't rush the trails. A few easy loops like you're doing is great.:)
- Don't rush the pedals. I figure there is no point having clipless pedals until she can use the gears well. If she's stopping all the time to change gears then there is probably little point in having to clip in and out all the time. When she is confident in the gears the desire for the pedals will come soon enough (to be like you and Dad). I think you're right on the money!
- When you do get the pedals, try them in a more forgiving environment than the trails!! I held the bike up (another bike was on the trainer) and had DD clip in and out dozens of times before we went outside to give it a real ride. And I figure a nice grassy park is a good spot for a gumby stack!:D

[Tuckervill]

I'd start with how SHE feels about it. Forget about what everyone else feels. If it becomes even a hint of a power struggle, the whole family loses, in many ways.

And I must interject that you may have very fond feelings for your BF's daughter, but you're not her parent. The quickest way to lose your man is to insert yourself between he and his daughter (that is, if he's a good dad!). It doesn't have to be overt; even the most subtle advocacy or position-taking can be misconstrued, especially by children. Make sure you have earned the trust and respect of both of them before you make decisions for her without her input, or champion her cause with her dad.

27 years in a divorced/remarried/child-of-divorce/step-everyone family have taught me a few hard lessons. Children are the most vulnerable victims.

Karen

[BellaMTB]

What is he thinking? I think it is crazy for an 8-year old to ride clipped onto a bike. What is the purpose? It takes some lower leg strength, not to mention coordination to get out of them safely. I think one would have to ask, given the potential for serious injury with clipless (not to mention the risk of turning her off to the sport altogether), what is really the downside of letting her use flat pedals? My boys are 9 & 12 and I wouldn't dream of putting them at risk like that. I agree with the others that she should be riding for fun at this stage.

[ms1]

You're right, he's wrong. I think the facts are black and white.

I have a 9 year old and she has a kid's Specialized mountain bike, but I'd never even consider clipping her in and was completely surprised that anyone would even think about doing that to a child. He's being irresponsible and she will get hurt.

As you know, you're in a tricky situation since you're not the mom. But, I think you should intercede. It could hurt your relationship, but on the the hand, maybe he'll understand that how much you care about his daughter.

[Selkie]

I'm not a mom to humans (just dogs) and it's been a long time since I did a gig as a nanny in college, so I'm definitely not qualified to give you any "kid" advice.

I'm 46 years old and a very experienced rider with excellent road bike handling skills. However, when I'm on my MTB and am off road, I ride with one foot clipped. I'm not ashamed to admit it, either!!!!! Broken clav, multiple broken toes, and a broken elbow are enough bone fractures in my lifetime.

[Veronica]

Well, I think it's good that he has her using clipless already on the road. They shouldn't be any harder to unclip than ski bindings and I don't hear any outrage about little kids skiing and snowboarding.

I think back to what MP has always said about riding with her daughter PP - keep it fun. Does the girl want to push through this challenge of using clipless off road or is it demoralizing? When I think about the 33 kids in my room, at least one or two of them would want to push through because they are stubborn little cusses and like a challenge. Most would say, "This isn't fun and I'm done," if they were doing it with their families. But I bet if they were riding with me, 30 of them would stick it out.

What have I learned from 17 years of teaching - kids behave differently with different adults in their lives. With mom and dad they can be whiny little babies and I never see that in the classroom. The girl may see you as someone she wants to emulate and she's willing to put up with a few knocks to be like you. I see that sort of perseverance as good thing. Just keep the trails easy and short.

Veronica

[kenyonchris]

Thanks ya'll! This was never intended to judge him...or criticize, I hope it didnt come across that way, he is the sweet, proud dad I love. I know he would never put her in harms way. But he is a guy, a strong rider, and he doesn't know what it is like to simply be unable (physically)to do something. He's a guy. I started to think I should have stopped being a weenie about clipping in from the get go. I think it would be a shame for her to be put off because of the clips, because he wants nothing more than to ride with his daughter.

I'll talk to him about it, I was just looking for information from other *women* who had started mountain biking...beginning clipped in or no? It sounds like no (as I did) and you guys have given me lots of good reasons why. It would break my heart to see her not ride or not enjoy it. Ill talk to him about it from the perspectives you guys have give me and we will go from there!

[IvonaDestroi]

I'd say let her decide. Let her try both in a safe area and explain the differences, and the advantages and disadvantages. If you learn to ride on these you will be so much better at it in the long run, but if you don't like them and you want to wait thats ok too. Those ones are much easier. 8 year olds arn't completely inept to make their own decisions, I think she could give both a shot, and if she chooses clipless bring along a pair of platforms and a tool just in case... you could even show her how you put them on and take them off... How cute!!!!

[AnnieBikes]

The double sided pedals, flat and SPD would give her both options, and maybe satisfy dad, too. When she is on, say, double track, and it is flat or she feels comfortable, then she can clip in...IF she wants. If not, the flats are always there. The MTB shoes with SPD's are flat on the bottom so would work fine. I was petrified at the beginning on the MTB with clip pedals, but gradually got over it. An 8 yr. old needs to gain confidence first and then learn to clip.

How wonderful that you have this to enjoy together! She sounds like an awesome little girl! Hope it all goes well for you!

[MartianDestiny]

The double sided pedals, flat and SPD would give her both options, and maybe satisfy dad, too.

ACK PLEASE NO! Not the double sided pedals. They are just hard to deal with. Either the platform is always up and they are hard to clip into or the clip is always up and they are hard to use as platforms. It's hard for ME to concentrate on flipping a pedal and catching it on the right side. I can't imagine it would be anything but frustrating for an 8 yr old that's trying to learn to maneuver on singletrack.

The idea is good though. If something like this is the route you want to go then I'd recommend getting a pedal that is both clipless and has a platform ON BOTH SIDES. Shimano makes a downhill pedal that would fit this bill nicely (in fact it's what I used to learn to ride clipless, and yes, with some learning you can ride them even with clipless shoes without being clipped in); crankbros does as well, but their eggbeater style engagement sticks up above the platform worse than the SPD (and the SPDs can be set to release under very little tension, which is nice).

[kenyonchris]

If something like this is the route you want to go then I'd recommend getting a pedal that is both clipless and has a platform ON BOTH SIDES. Shimano makes a downhill pedal that would fit this bill nicely (in fact it's what I used to learn to ride clipless, and yes, with some learning you can ride them even with clipless shoes without being clipped in); crankbros does as well, but their eggbeater style engagement sticks up above the platform worse than the SPD (and the SPDs can be set to release under very little tension, which is nice).

This is a GREAT idea. I will suggest it to dad. Ultimately, it IS his kid, and I don't interfere once the great and powerful OZ has spoken. He is not all macho though, and I think he will be up for this option. He just thinks she will be more successful in her pedal stroke if she is clipped in. He doesn't GET that some of us are NOT him!

[AnnieBikes]

The Shimano was actually the one I was thinking of...just didn't express it clearly enough! :(