The state of education: [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

Owlie

11-19-2009, 12:09 PM

I keep wondering when the tuition hikes are going to hit Ohio. We've already got some of the highest in-state tuition in the country because the state (not to get too political) doesn't see fit to fund it. I'm going to a private university, so it doesn't matter to me. Well...it does--Ohio residents going to a private college in Ohio used to get $900 a year. It paid for books. They cut that a couple years ago. It's now something like $300. ONE of my textbooks costs $150.
I'm in the PhD program application process now, except that I'm strongly leaning toward taking a year off. I've definitely heard rumors of cutbacks in admissions because of the economy. With a few exceptions, all of my programs of choice are at public schools. The program I really like is in AZ, whose economy is also not so great at the moment.
Ginny--really? Out of state tuition in other states is lower than CA's in-state? Ohio State's in state this year is ~$8,700 at the main campus. For out of state, it's $22,000.

ginny

11-19-2009, 12:27 PM

yeah, I know for a fact that University of Wyoming out of state is cheaper than in state at Colorado State University (for undergrads). For professional programs, there are programs like WICHE for Vet school and WWAMI for medical school that keep tuition at in-state levels for students from qualifying states. I also think that CSU tuition for out of state may be cheaper than in state for some schools (UC perhaps?) - I don't know that for a fact, but I think I remember it lurking in the cobwebs somewhere...

Owlie

11-19-2009, 01:03 PM

I'm just really glad that all the PhD programs I'm applying to guarantee out-of-state tuition waivers if they accept you! If I take a year off, I'll be taking a few credit hours' worth of grad classes to keep myself in the loop, as it were. My original plan was to pick a university, move to that city, and take classes there. AZ schools have ridiculously high out-of-state tuition, so I think I'm staying in Ohio...

Crankin

11-19-2009, 02:10 PM

The out of state tuition at U of A was less than some other out of state tuitions and about half of private universities. My younger son went there until he enlisted. It cost us about 20k for the year, including room/board/tuition. It wasn't that long ago, either. In fact, he went there, as opposed to CU, which was his first choice, because it was half the cost of CU for out of state students. So I am not sure where you are getting this information or what other schools you are comparing AZ to. The in state tuition there is ridiculously low; I went to ASU and even though it was a long time ago, there has always been really cheap in state tuition there; it should be more equitable.
That article about CA is little distressing. Same son is now living in San Diego and his wife wants to stay there. She is in school there at a community college and will be transferring. He would be looking to finish at UCSD or SDSU when he is done with the military. Although they don't have to pay the tuition because of the GI bill, who wants to go to a university that strapped? It seems like everyone would just be demoralized.

Owlie

11-19-2009, 02:48 PM

The out of state tuition at U of A was less than some other out of state tuitions and about half of private universities. My younger son went there until he enlisted. It cost us about 20k for the year, including room/board/tuition. It wasn't that long ago, either. In fact, he went there, as opposed to CU, which was his first choice, because it was half the cost of CU for out of state students. So I am not sure where you are getting this information or what other schools you are comparing AZ to. The in state tuition there is ridiculously low; I went to ASU and even though it was a long time ago, there has always been really cheap in state tuition there; it should be more equitable.

I'm referring to graduate courses, which are more expensive anyway, and because I'd be a)out of state and b)taking non-degree courses for that year, I'd be charged by credit hour. If I went to U of A, I'd be charged a bit more than $800 per credit hour (plus fees, which brings it to about $1000), and if I went to University of Cincinnati or Ohio State, I'd be paying $425-500 (including fees) per credit hour. (I pulled the numbers off their respective websites.)
But I agree, the in-state undergrad tuition in AZ is insanely low, and even the grad tuition is low.

Crankin

11-19-2009, 06:17 PM

I guess I'm a little jaded from living in MA. When my other son went to U Mass Amherst, the tuition was 6k a year, but now it's 10K. I guess it's high compared to other places, but he got a really good education. And since most of the people here go to private universities and pay at least 30k a year just for tuition, it seems like nothing. I just saw on the news that the tuition in CA is going up to 10K. People here would think that was a deal! I'm in grad school for a second master's at a private university and I am paying about $900 a credit... total program is 60 credits, so do the math. I got a loan as I wasn't willing to give up my life style. I will pay it back when I start working again, although having a spouse certainly helps. Have you looked into grad assistantships? I was in a PhD program at ASU and I didn't pay a dime (I quit because I was sick of school at the time).

One suggestion about AZ. Why would you be taking non degree courses? I seem to remember that you could take summer classes for in state tuition, no matter where you were from. Since there are 2 5 week summer sessions, it could be up to 12 credits. Of course, you have to be able to stand the heat!
Also, a lot of people moved there, got a job to establish residency, a driver's license, etc and went part time. I also think you can take up to 6 credits for in state tuition. If you are planning to take a year off, why not move, get your residency if that is the program you really want to do.

solobiker

11-19-2009, 06:58 PM

DH just showed me a video of riots at a college/university in California due to the increase in tuition fees. All I have to say is I am glad I am not a student right now.

Dogmama

11-20-2009, 02:09 AM

Have you looked into grad assistantships? I was in a PhD program at ASU and I didn't pay a dime (I quit because I was sick of school at the time).

One suggestion about AZ. Why would you be taking non degree courses? I seem to remember that you could take summer classes for in state tuition, no matter where you were from. Since there are 2 5 week summer sessions, it could be up to 12 credits. Of course, you have to be able to stand the heat!
Also, a lot of people moved there, got a job to establish residency, a driver's license, etc and went part time. I also think you can take up to 6 credits for in state tuition. If you are planning to take a year off, why not move, get your residency if that is the program you really want to do.

Having a grad assistantship waives out of state tuition, you're still liable for in-state - which in AZ isn't too high (yet!). Establishing residency is getting difficult though. Summers - I recommend on-line classes!! But be prepared for a foot race because they cram 16 weeks into 5 or 8 weeks (depending on the class.) You can also take classes during the winter break & those are three week classes. Kiss you husband goodbye & tell your friends Merry Christmas.

Dogmama

11-20-2009, 02:28 AM

Ladies, I just read this in the NYT, and thought I would post a link here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/education/20tuition.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

The Univ of Ca system is proposing to raise tuition by 32% for undergraduates next year to make up for steep budget cuts. I think I'll call my undergrad university and give them a few bucks! I wonder how many students will drop out with such steep increases in tuition. It makes me so sad.

That is very admirable. I would make sure that you specify that your contribution goes towards education, for example adding to an existing scholarship. If you just give "unrestricted" money, it can end up buying Dunkin Donuts for the administration.

OK, devils advocate here. I do feel sad for those students and I hope that there is an increase in tuition assistance through grants or loans for the students who deserve them.

However - I am finishing a one year stint in college (including summer sessions - ugh.) I will tell you that many of those kids don't belong there. Communication skills are nonexistent. They are interested in doing the bare minimum, the battle cry being, "Is this going to be on the test?" In my day, you never walked in 30 minutes late, slept at your desk or sent text messages all through class (OK - in my day there were no cell phones.)

Back in the stone ages, ("BC" - before computers) I watched a kid get tossed out of a lecture because he was dressed inappropriately. Today, you want the front row of the classroom unless you like looking at gross tats and butt cracks.

I've had to do group projects. Being the oldest one, they automatically assume that I'll take control & clean up after them. It's infuriating. They don't show up for group meetings, don't do what they've been assigned (or do a real half-assed job), or text through the meeting.

OK - I know there are students who are serious about education & they know that it can catapult them into a better life. And I really feel badly for those who will be priced out of education. I just hope that they can secure some financial assistance because many of them already work outside of school. But if I hear one more student whine...:mad:

/rant off

Veronica

11-20-2009, 03:36 AM

There is this belief that college is for everyone. I guess it's because we've sent so many of our blue collar jobs overseas, so now you need to go to college to get a job.

Veronica

OakLeaf

11-20-2009, 04:57 AM

Liberal arts education maybe isn't for everyone (and I'm not sure how true that would really be with a better elementary education system), but a two-year tech degree is needed to do just about any job.

badgercat

11-20-2009, 05:35 AM

Sorry to continue taking this off topic, but...

I'm referring to graduate courses, which are more expensive anyway, and because I'd be a)out of state and b)taking non-degree courses for that year, I'd be charged by credit hour. If I went to U of A, I'd be charged a bit more than $800 per credit hour (plus fees, which brings it to about $1000), and if I went to University of Cincinnati or Ohio State, I'd be paying $425-500 (including fees) per credit hour. (I pulled the numbers off their respective websites.)
But I agree, the in-state undergrad tuition in AZ is insanely low, and even the grad tuition is low.

Yes, taking courses per-credit is expensive here at U of A. Are the non-degree courses prerequisites that you might be able to take elsewhere? On the flip side, my boyfriend is doing non-degree courses right now but a certain number of those credits can apply towards his eventual degree if he gets in the program, which could be worth it depending on your situation.

Long story short--my boyfriend and I are both in grad school in some capacity at the U of A (I am in a degree program, he's not), and we both are (him) or started (me) as out-of-state students. Feel free to PM me if you have questions I might be able to help with.

Veronica

11-20-2009, 05:44 AM

I always bristle when people talk about doing a better job in the elementary years. What would that look like?

We've been doing 20 - 1 in CA for 12 years or so now for grade K - 3. In all honesty, it hasn't made much of a difference by the time they get to me. I still have at least a third of my class who can't read at grade level and who don't know their basic facts. I have 33 fifth graders crammed into my classroom. Would smaller class sizes for longer make a difference? Fourth grade is when they are expected to start learning from their reading and that's when class size jumps up by ten - fourteen kids. But it all costs money and there's no money to be had now.

What do we teachers do with those kids who impinge on the learning of others with their emotional baggage that they are bringing from home? What do we do with those kids who don't eat breakfast? Who arrive late every day? Who have no place to do their homework? Who are expected to babysit younger siblings after school so they can't do their homework? What about the kids with ADD who are a constant distraction to their peers? Or the ones with Oppositional Defiant Disorder who will scream at you if you look at them funny? Or the first grader who tells his teacher to F--- off? All that and more happens at my school and I'm at one of the better schools in my town.

So, come on, tell me what I should be doing differently so that we would have a better elementary education system. How would you fix it?

Veronica

OakLeaf

11-20-2009, 05:52 AM

I was afraid you'd take that wrong. :o

To be clear, I didn't mean anything about any individual teacher. Obviously there are systems and individuals all along the continuum, but the majority of teachers are doing the best you can with what you're given, in a job that's hugely underappreciated.

It's "what you're given" and "underappreciated" that I have a big problem with. IMO there needs to be systemic change in the whole way that children are raised/educated in this country. And the way all economic "nonproducers," which includes children, stay-at-home parents, those with severe disabilities, and the retired - need to be treated. But there we delve into politics....

Veronica

11-20-2009, 06:02 AM

I was afraid you'd take that wrong. :o

LOL You knew I'd launch into a tirade. I'm good. :p

Personally I think no one should be allowed to have children until he/she has passed my test, because it all starts at home. I haven't worked out the details on the test yet...

Veronica

Dogmama

11-20-2009, 06:21 AM

LOL You knew I'd launch into a tirade. I'm good. :p

Personally I think no one should be allowed to have children until he/she has passed my test, because it all starts at home. I haven't worked out the details on the test yet...

Veronica

Ooooo - can I help? Please? Can I? Please?

My DH's grandson threatened one of his high school teachers with, "I know where you park your car." Result? Two day suspension. Holy crap, Batman! A few months later he was caught by a cop pointing a gun (BB, but still) out of a car at somebody else. Result? One page essay about how that was wrong (handed down by a judge!!)

Now, with crappy grades, a worse attitude and an alcohol problem his mother is buying him a VAN! Yup - guess he's been a good kid. Oh, and he threatened her too with, "You have to sleep sometime."

So, when he goes to school, we expect him to be an angel? :rolleyes:

Friend of mine is a school counselor. She tells me about kids who miss school because they have to meet their parent's drug dealers & exchange money. The parents are cooking meth at home. The kids come into school with the same clothes, no breakfast, no homework & no sleep. This is at a lower-middle income area. It isn't June Cleaver's house but it isn't the absolute pits.

Trek420

11-20-2009, 07:07 AM

Or the ones with Oppositional Defiant Disorder who will scream at you if you look at them funny?

I'm sorry, this is a disorder with an acronym and maybe a charity road ride to find a cure now? This is as opposed to just an out of control kid that needs whatever one does with an out of control kid?

Like duct tape maybe? :rolleyes:

I'd like to see the test, V. :p Will it be multiple choice? Pass/fail? Graded on a curve?

It starts at home. But V and all our TE teachers you make a big difference. Thanks.

OK, first question:

You come home from a hard day at the meth lab. Your toddler says "Mommy, Daddy read to me again, please!" Do you:
a) sit with your child and read showing that you value reading and time with them, creating memories of reading together.
b) say "not now, I have to drink a 6 pack first. Here, watch some TV"
c) say "read to you? I can't read"

Crankin

11-20-2009, 07:08 AM

Ah, this thread has drifted a bit....
No, not everyone should go to college, but I sort of agree that to make it, you need some sort of technical post high school training, unless you have gone to a very good technical high school. Of course, around here, college is considered compulsory. Our state schools are woefully underfunded because most people would rather go to to a 3d rate private school for a lot more $, than say they went to a state school. A few people have just come to the realization that community colleges are actually great places to get an education or training for a career...
I went to a community college and 2 state universities. I am now getting my second grad degree at a smaller private university. I do see a difference in the type of education I am getting, compared to my master's in ed. I got at ASU, but I think it is more a function of the particular school I am going to, which is very holistically oriented. I got a great education at ASU for both my BA and MA.
As for the poor quality of the undergraduates; well, I think there was a lot of that when I went to school (in the 70s), but we saw it in different ways, since there was no technology to distract people. Other things did, like drugs and alcohol.

ginny

11-20-2009, 07:52 AM

I know that most of out teachers are running a full on marathon each and every day to do the most they can for the greatest number of children. I also understand that children come from different backgrounds and that not every family values education. I am pretty sure I live in a highly educated bubble. I have never seen children attend school hungry or wearing the same clothes they slept in because they had to watch their younger siblings while mom got high. What I do know, though, is that the only way out of that mess for those children is a good education. I come from the west coast. Our state schools are great (or they were). We are a very diverse nation. How do we educate all strata? How do we ensure a better life for those who come from nothing? We ensure that early education is adequate. We ensure that higher education is accessible. 10k/yr is not accessible to a large majority of individuals in this country. If the kids wearing grubby jeans and ratty t-shirts somehow get through high school, sure they can maybe get loans to cover undergrad, but that starts young adults off in the hole. I don't know what the answer is, but it saddens me that we are pricing a higher education out of reach of those who need is most. I know.... I'm completely idealistic. Those kids probably don't want to go to college anyway, but what if there was just one who did? ... and now he/she gives up her goal because of a 32% tuition hike? -shaking head- I dunno... it just seems sad... :(

shootingstar

11-20-2009, 08:05 AM

Something as part of Veronica's test for parental suitability to raise preschool children better on: how to raise self-regulating children.

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Raising+self+regulated+kids+takes+work/1644006/story.html

"These four areas of executive functioning are very important to the health and well being of children," she says. They foster awareness at an early age of the benefits of exerting personal control over thoughts, feelings and actions, and can be called upon to resolve conflicts, correct mistakes or plan new actions, she says. And kids will likely spend less time frustrated and have more time for fun, friends and finding solutions.
Without sufficient self-regulation, a discouraging cascade of events can occur.
"The child who does not have self-regulation at five years of age is the child who cannot follow the teacher's directions at age six or who cannot plan how to solve a problem at age seven," says a report for the U.S. National Institute for Early Education Research. "The child without self-regulation of emotions at age four will not be able to control his temper at five and will have negative peer interactions at age seven."
A former preschool and elementary school teacher, Boyer says she found many children who needed support in self regulation. And there's even more stimulation and temptation facing them today.
Luckily, whether a child is easygoing or strong-willed, exuberant or slow to warm, parents can help their kids acquire self-regulation, she says.
In one of her studies, 146 families and 15 early childhood educators identified five factors that foster self-regulation:
- Optimism — seeing good events as "permanent, pervasive and personal" and bad events as temporary, specific and not due to the child.
- Empathy — understanding for the feelings of others. How would you feel if that happened to you?
- Stability and consistency in daily experiences — set times for waking, reading, bath and bed help kids understand their world is dependable.
- Channelling reactions and energy through play and physical activity.
- Ability to use self-talk to comfort and encourage themselves, as in "It's OK — I am sad because I lost the toy, but I have other toys."
Ways parents can encourage "executive function" in their kids:
- Practice challenging tasks for kids in advance.
- Demonstrate good self-regulation in parents' own lives.
- Throw a ball back and forth to separate kids from the source of frustration.
- Encourage imaginative, unstructured play, which has a big role in self-talk that governs thoughts and actions.
- Notice progress: "Remember how you got so angry the last time but today you were able to handle it."
- Reinforce the ability to calm themselves — "I can have a snack when I get home."
- Read to them without showing them the pictures to develop their ability to hold a story in their heads.
- Read books that exemplify positive self-talk, such as The Little Engine That Could.
- Play games such as Simon Says to help keep the rules of the game in their heads.
- Avoid commands that might stifle children’s ability to make good choices.
- Use reminders to prompt children, such as a watch with an alarm to signal impending time's up.
- Give advance warning of the rules to head off trouble spots

Veronica

11-20-2009, 08:10 AM

I grew up on welfare. I was one of those kids who wore the same thing to school because I had nothing else. My mother wasn't a druggie, she worked a forty hour a week job at minimum wage, took overtime when she could. But with 4 kids at home and no child support, it was tough.

I knew I had to work hard in school and get some scholarships. I was lucky and I did. Then I decided to get married after my freshman year and transfer to a school in CA to be near my husband. Good bye scholarship. And yeah I finished school and my teaching credential owing a lot of money. I don't know why it's too hard for 20 somethings now to deal with that. That's life... We were paying off our debt into our early 30s.

Veronica

OakLeaf

11-20-2009, 08:17 AM

And yeah I finished school and my teaching credential owing a lot of money. I don't know why it's too hard for 20 somethings now to deal with that. That's life... We were paying off our debt into our early 30s.

Veronica

Salaries don't even cover student loan payments any more. That's the result of the combination of the increase in loan interest, the decrease in grant money, and the decrease in real wages.

I did a refinancing and got (I think two) extensions, lived very modestly, and still the only reason my loans were paid off before I was 45 was because my second husband helped me out.

It's no wonder educated women defer motherhood... they have to pay off their loans first...

shootingstar

11-20-2009, 08:26 AM

Our state schools are great (or they were). We are a very diverse nation. How do we educate all strata? How do we ensure a better life for those who come from nothing? We ensure that early education is adequate. We ensure that higher education is accessible. 10k/yr is not accessible to a large majority of individuals in this country. If the kids wearing grubby jeans and ratty t-shirts somehow get through high school, sure they can maybe get loans to cover undergrad, but that starts young adults off in the hole. I don't know what the answer is, but it saddens me that we are pricing a higher education out of reach of those who need is most. I know.... I'm completely idealistic. Those kids probably don't want to go to college anyway, but what if there was just one who did? ... and now he/she gives up her goal because of a 32% tuition hike? -shaking head- I dunno... it just seems sad... :(

Canada has the same problem of increased college and university tuition for degree/credit programs. For past 25 years, it is norm that if a student doesn't have family to financially assist, not enough money from summer/part-time job, then it is the norm the student will acquire a sizable debt at graduation. (Just to dispell ideas that Canada is a social state in all areas of our society. :o Mindboggling that in Germany, university tuition was free for Germans at German universities, until approx. 5-10 yrs. ago. Even now they only pay several thousand $$ annually. I found out last year from our German ex-patriate work staff.)

However I must admit, I am amazed by the number of university students who head to tropical areas during reading vacation week for a good time. I often think: "How can they afford this?" It was a rare trend when I was university student in cold Ontario...in late 1970's to early 1980's. Meanwhile I was slugging it out at K-mart as a cashier part-time during my university years.

So glad I did my degrees back then.

Veronica

11-20-2009, 08:29 AM

Salaries don't even cover student loan payments any more. ..

That's scary. My first job paid me 20K a year and Thom's first post Marine job paid about 28K. I guess getting married young was a good thing since his income really paid off my college loans. :eek:

We had no money for extras. Our rent was $600 a month.

Veronica

lph

11-20-2009, 10:18 AM

malkin

11-20-2009, 10:27 AM

It's as true today as when Woody Guthrie wrote it:

California is a Garden of Eden
A paradise to live in or see,
but believe it or not,
You won't find it so hot,
If you ain't got that dough-ray-me.

Crankin

11-20-2009, 11:15 AM

Very true, Malkin. My DIL doesn't understand this yet, as she has only been there 4 years. My son, on the other hand, has seen what's happened to AZ and it isn't pretty.
Re: the student loan issue. It's just a whole different ball game now. I had 3 loans that were totally cancelled because I went into a field that needed people (special ed). But, they didn't total that much. My older son's girlfriend is a perfect example of what happens today. She has a degree in interior architecture from RISD (supposedly the premier art school in the country). Her parents gave her no help and in fact, didn't even encourage her to go to college (they are both drop outs from BU). She is incredibly talented. She got beat up in the Boston Public Schools and got herself scholarships to a private HS. But, she has not been able to get a decent job in her field. She is turning 30 in a couple of months and owes about 60K. She lived in NYC for 2 years, to get experience in her field, where she was barely paid above minimum wage and treated like a slave. She is now working as a trainee at a locally owned, very socially conscious BBQ place that actually is a huge supporter of the local cycling community. They are going to open another place and hopefully, she will get to design it and manage it. She does some graphic design freelancing on the side, but there are no jobs in her field. She is not lazy by any means. But, that 60K is hanging over her head. It's been deferred a lot. My son is afraid her credit will not allow them to buy a house if they get married. It really sucks! Most of this is because her parents gave her no financial education and the fact that she could have gone to MA College of Art and had the same education for a fraction of the cost.
I am not sure what the answer to all of these problems are, but I don't think we're going to see educational equity in the US in my life time. It takes money and commitment, both of which are lacking.

Atlas

11-20-2009, 08:41 PM

In Norway university tuition is free (well, apart from books). You get a student loan and a stipend, which together is enough to live on, frugally. Most students hold a part-time job to have a bit more than that. But the loan has very good terms, so a lot of people choose to take up the full loan. New mothers get a stipend about the size of 6 months loan, if I remember correctly, to be able to stay home with the baby. If you hold a fulltime job when you give birth you're allotted almost a year's paid leave.

Don't shoot me, I just live here. ;)

Oh, and we also have taxes that a lot of Americans would find horrendous. I don't, I pay them willingly.

I tried to see if I could still claim Norwegian citizenship but I think I was one generation too many in the United States :)

Concerning college, there are so many angles to it. I graduate in December and I'm really happy. Tuition and books keep going up and I and I'm really anxious and nervous to find a job in this market. On the class level, there are a quite a few people who are in college because thats what their parents told them they were doing, or they didn't want to start working full time. I listen to them talk about football scores in class or how drunk they're getting that night. But there are a lot of people who are there for an education, it just took me a while to get to the upper level classes to find them. The saddest part for me is watching professors get budgets slashed and still try to maintain the same level of education. I have a class right now that we didn't get a syllabus in class because the department didn't have enough paper and we had to print it ourselves. Maybe if they cut the football coach's salary we'd be able to afford supplies where they are needed.

shootingstar

11-20-2009, 09:01 PM

I have a class right now that we didn't get a syllabus in class because the department didn't have enough paper and we had to print it ourselves. Maybe if they cut the football coach's salary we'd be able to afford supplies where they are needed.

Amazing, a shortage of photocopying paper.
Canadian universities don't have much on the collegiate sports team funding side anyway compared to the US. Community colleges in Canada support their teams (if some have any) even less.

My second university that I went, hugely supported its football team at the time. And annual fall homecoming game, parade, etc. was celebrated by the university and city. Very unusual for a Canadian university football team to have that level of high local support. Even so, at that time, there wasn't much money spent on the football team, etc. Judging from all the alumni propaganda that I get, probably hasn't change much. All the major Canadian universities have been aggressively fundraising by beefing up their full-time prospect research funding team members, renaming their university libraries to mirror the big benefactors, etc.

Crankin

11-21-2009, 07:27 AM

Dogmama

11-21-2009, 12:30 PM

The saddest part for me is watching professors get budgets slashed and still try to maintain the same level of education. I have a class right now that we didn't get a syllabus in class because the department didn't have enough paper and we had to print it ourselves. Maybe if they cut the football coach's salary we'd be able to afford supplies where they are needed.

Sorry, I have problems feeling sorry for most professors. They b*tch & moan if they have to teach over three classes/year and please, don't ask them to teach any class over 30 students without a teaching assistant to do the grunt work. And, they get tenure which means "job for life." I saw very few professors who really gave a damn about the students.

Collegiate athletics are often supported through donations by big money people. That's how they excuse giving themselves big salaries because the color of money is different. However, recently an ex-college athlete "hero" was vacillating between giving $2M+ to the athletic department or to the department of his major. Since he didn't graduate, it didn't take long for him to quit vacillating and the athletic department is getting a state-of-the-art training facility.

Meanwhile you, dear student, are printing out your own syllabi.

MartianDestiny

11-21-2009, 01:01 PM

Sorry, I have problems feeling sorry for most professors. They b*tch & moan if they have to teach over three classes/year and please, don't ask them to teach any class over 30 students without a teaching assistant to do the grunt work. And, they get tenure which means "job for life." I saw very few professors who really gave a damn about the students.

Clearly you've never taught a class and have very little idea of the effort (and time) it takes to do so well. You also clearly have very little understanding of EVERYTHING that is expected of a Professor....here's a hint: teaching classes is less than 1/3 of the responsibility.

I've never seen a professor moan about 2-3 classes a semester (that's 4-6 a year...not 3 a year...) for starters.

Here's an estimate of the time involved: 2-3hrs to prepare a lecture X twice a week, per class. Maybe you've already taught it before, that's still 1-2hrs to go over your notes and recall/update, per lecture, per class. So, if you are teaching 3 classes a semester that's 6-18hrs per week just in preparing lectures. Then there's grading. A 5-10 question multiple choice quiz will take 5 minutes per student to grade; 3 classes at 30 students a piece (forget the large lecture first year/non-major courses that can easily have 50-200 students...) that's 450 minutes or 7.5 hrs. A mathematical or scientific problem set homework of 5-10 questions...easily 30 to 45 minutes per student to grade. 5-10 page essays, an hour per student. Tests, midterms, finals, 45min-1hr per student. You'll have at least one of those a week. Then there's office hours: 3-5 hrs per class per week where you may or may not have time to do something else. O, and you'll be all but expected to hold review sessions as well.

That is a full time job, but remember it's 1/3 of the expected responsibilities. Maybe you have graduate assistants to help with grading, review sessions, office hours, but it's still a significant number of hours.

Then there is research. They want you to publish 1-3 meaningful articles per year in peer reviewed journals (or be writing a book). I can assure you that is a full time job as well, even if you have students doing some of the research.

Then there are committees, admissions boards, new faculty interviews, community service, conferences (which you had BETTER present at...), etc.

If you can't keep up with that FORGET getting Tenure, and MANY MANY professors DO NOT HAVE IT. "Associate" "Assistant" = NON-TENURED.

I've come across a few professors that "didn't care" about students (ONLY a few). Most cared and would do anything in their power if they actually knew you (yea, that meant actually talking with them, showing up at office hours, etc). Most were also completely frazzled. Trying to keep up with all the expectations at work, trying to get tenure (because if you don't within an alloted period you are GONE, not because they wanted a "job for life"), trying to raise a family, trying to actually get home before midnight, dealing with the ridiculous "we don't have enough paper for you to print that test" crap, etc, etc.

Despite that a lot of them actually enjoy their jobs, kudos to them!

And no, I am not a professor and do not want to be.

Owlie

11-21-2009, 01:30 PM

You still get a syllabus on paper??
Everything we get is on line, through Blackboard. That way, the onus of printing is on the student. All of the required articles are there, too. I print everything out at home, but some students have to print their stuff at the university and now they have to pay for that (it was free until last year). There is almost no paper handed out by the professors.

Most of my profs have handed one out at the beginning of the semester, and then anything else is online. The older professors don't use Blackboard, so they print copies of everything. Of course, it helps that in my major departments, no one's really hurting for money. We pay for about $25 worth of printing per semester, but I've never used it. The "print to here" system is too unreliable for me to rely on.

Dogmama, there's an interesting split here about professors' attitudes. There are the ones who really like to teach, who generally get the intro classes and have no research responsibility (and no, they aren't tenured). The ones who don't like teaching classes, I've found, really don't want to teach intro courses (which are full of whining pre-meds in my major) and are actually enthusiastic about teaching upper-level courses. My research advisor used to teach introductory organic chemistry. He didn't like it, and he just wasn't good at communicating it. I took his class on biochemistry, however, and he was excited about it and willing to go over everything with students on a one-on-one basis.
I've had one prof who out and out said that he doesn't care, he's got tenure, and he pretty much doesn't care about anything but his research.
I can't really comment on the TA business--I've had classes with 300+ people (a TA or two, I think, is necessary there!), and I've had classes with 15-30 people. The profs, for the most part, write and grade their own tests, unless it's a 300-person introductory chem course. The TAs have really only been a major factor in lab classes and the introductory history class.
I don't think my experience is typical, though: I go to a private university with a relatively small undergraduate population (4,300 out of about 10,000 total students).
For some fun numbers: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1086

shootingstar

11-21-2009, 01:33 PM

Perhaps Dogmama might be referring to the tendency of the tenure system where for some faculties at many universities, there is greater emphasis on continuous research.

Certainly in the Masters and PhD programs for alot of disciplines, there are no mandatory courses for Masters and PhD candidates as well as professiors, to take courses on cognitive and learning theory of adult learners.

HOWEVER ongoing improvement in teaching skills, is often greatly encouraged whereby internal courses are offered by some universities /colleges to existing university / college instructors to improve their teaching and facilitation skills when they are "hired' or on staff.

I guess I've heard this about teaching quality, from dearie's daughter who taught several lst year undergraduate university English literature courses when she was pursuing her Masters.

And also from a brother-in-law who does not have full professor nor associate professor status but he did his PhD, has been a researcher and instructor with faculty of Engineering (at Canada's largest university) for over past 25 years and still is. He usually carries a teaching load per semester of 2-3 courses for 2nd to 4th year undergraduate engineering courses. However recently in past 2 years, he carried a load of 4 courses for some semesters. That is tremendous because he still must do his own research work, still publishing and presenting internationally. I don't know about his teaching competency but he is by nature, a patient person who would be conscientous enough to teach something in a logical manner.

My initial earlier comments on increased student class size at the colleges and universities are more from the student's perspective, who have paid for their education with the expectation of instructional quality and attention.

Of course things get messy, when some of the lower ranked instructors go on strike. They did for several months at York University in Toronto. It really messed up many students in terms of educational quality and financially when it's expensive to extend accommodation and living expenses. In the end, their semester this year was compressed and shortened by several weeks or alot more. Students were also forced to remain in the city until June instead of April this year to complete their courses in order to get their credits counted towards their degrees. This happened to a nephew.

Owlie

11-21-2009, 01:43 PM

Perhaps Dogmama might be referring to the tendency of the tenure system where for some faculties at many universities, there is greater emphasis on continuous research.

Certainly in the Masters and PhD programs for alot of disciplines, there are no mandatory courses for Masters and PhD candidates as well as professiors, to take courses on cognitive and learning theory of adult learners.

HOWEVER ongoing improvement in teaching skills, is often greatly encouraged whereby internal courses are offered by some universities /colleges to existing university / college instructors to improve their teaching and facilitation skills when they are "hired' or on staff.

I guess I've heard this about teaching quality, from dearie's daughter who taught several lst year undergraduate university English literature courses when she was pursuing her Masters.

And also from a brother-in-law who does not have full professor nor associate professor status but he did his PhD, has been a researcher and instructor with faculty of Engineering (at Canada's largest university) for over past 25 years and still is. He usually carries a teaching load per semester of 2-3 courses for 2nd to 4th year undergraduate engineering courses. However recently in past 2 years, he carried a load of 4 courses for some semesters. That is tremendous because he still must do his own research work, still publishing and presenting internationally.

My initial earlier comments on increased student class size at the colleges and universities are more from the student's perspective, who have paid for their education with the expectation of instructional quality and attention.

My experience does come from a research university. A small research university, but a research university nonetheless. My research advisor teaches two lecture courses a year now that he's not teaching o-chem, but he also acts as a research advisor to undergrads like me. The profs who don't teach undergrad courses often have to teach grad courses in addition to their research, academic advising, and research.

OakLeaf

11-21-2009, 02:10 PM

I never had a professor who really seemed not to care.

Teachers in elementary and high school, definitely. Never in college or law school. There was definitely variation in their ability to make the material (1) clear and (2) interesting, but never a lack of commitment.

From the opposite perspective - I taught one course at a technical college. I know I didn't do a very good job of it - I appear to be the only one in my family who didn't get the teaching gene - but it wasn't for lack of trying. Still, for the $3.00 an hour it worked out to, I could've worked at McDonald's and gotten something to eat, too. Whatever amount of homework students do for each class, multiply that by about five for the professor.

And from a third perspective - my sister, the tenured professor, is lucky to have a stay-at-home husband, otherwise she'd never have been able to raise her daughter. Her work is every bit as demanding as mine ever was. Sure she complains about her undergrads sometimes - just as all the teachers here vent about their students, and just as I had some problem clients - but she loves what she does. Once every few years she has a semester when she doesn't have any classes, but that doesn't mean she isn't extremely busy with her research, only that she has a bit more flexibility with her time.

C'mon, we need a professor here to defend her profession with the same teeth and claws V. has for hers. :D

Grog

11-21-2009, 05:48 PM

Oh, and we also have taxes that a lot of Americans would find horrendous. I don't, I pay them willingly.

I wish I could say the same. I am appalled at how the Canadian government has been cutting taxes continuously for the past 10 years, while cutting the services that the most needy among us can't live without.

I used to actively fight against this, now I just don't know what to do anymore.

Crankin

11-21-2009, 07:20 PM

I don't mind printing my syllabus. I bought a laser printer, just to print the large number of articles I need to read. Much better than spending hundreds on xerox machines, as I did last time I was in grad school in the eighties.
My school is a very small university that used to be a women's college for educators. The grad school has been coed and has other had other majors for many years, but the undergraduate college just went coed a few years ago. There's a few sports teams, but, that is definitely not the focus.
Like Oakleaf, I don't think I've ever had a professor who didn't care. I've had a few who were horrible instructors and I agree with Shooting Star that they need some basic lessons on instructional strategies. I actually did that for my pyschopathology prof last year. He's interesting and I'm sure, a great therapist, but very disorganized and unclear in his written directions/expectations. I showed him how to write a rubric for assessing group projects and he was rather surprised at the whole thing. It made him think, at least.

Dogmama

11-22-2009, 12:02 PM

I apologize for painting all professors with a broad brush. I am very aware that there are excellent professors who do cutting edge research and deeply care for their students.

I spent 30 years as a business manager in a research university & I'm very aware of what professor do and don't do.

During budget cuts, my staff was let go. Tenured professors stayed. They didn't demand a less amount of work from my staff; indeed, as budgets were cut, audits were heightened, professors tried to stretch their dollars (and the rules) and we had more work. When I retired, I worked 70 hours/week. So did my (remaining) staff. And that just allowed us to keep up.

This could get into a real P*ssing match and frankly, I don't want to dredge up those memories.

Let me just say that I apologize if I offended anybody. Enough said.

Aquila

11-22-2009, 04:30 PM

Well, erm, I'm a professor at a mid-size comprehensive (that is, not a Research I) university.

I'm sorry to hear you've had bad experiences with professors. As with other professions, sometimes people are jerks and sometimes they tire out. And certainly, none of us is perfect.

I think most professors work pretty hard, but much of our work is invisible to the public and maybe doesn't seem important. And we don't do a very good job explaining what we do.

When I was a student, in the late 70s, the taxpayers of the state of California provided about 70% of the cost of my education at a UC school. Now, I'm guessing the state contributes something more like 25-30% of the cost of a student's education at a UC school. Some of the rest is made up by corporate stuff, but mostly the difference is paid by students. When I was a student, people who needed financial aid often got grants; now students with the same level of need get loans so they're starting out with serious debt. The same trend has happened in a lot of states.

The public used to perceive universities and colleges as a public good, the idea being that a well educated citizenry would contribute more to the economy and so forth. Think about the growth of public education in the GI bill era after WWII, and how significantly that growth was echoed in economic prosperity in the 50s and 60s.

That perception started changing in the 80s; now the public perceives higher education as a private good, and wants individuals to pay for it. To me that seems a huge mistake. And the unwillingness to pay for education is echoed at the elementary and secondary levels; our schools are badly strapped for cash.

In the state where I work now (Wisconsin), the prison system has grown in state funding while the university budget has shrunk. If you chart the money out for both institutions, the graphs are heartbreaking. We're willing to pay for jails, but not for education and programs that will help people contribute to their communities and not end up in jails. When you think about the 80s, the whole "tough on crime" movement paralleled the move away from funding education well. Now our prisons are more and more crowded, and our students are hurting. Personally, I'd rather put my tax money towards school funding at all levels, and I vote accordingly, but there are a lot of people who think differently and vote accordingly.

Wisconsin state employees have taken a 3.06 or so percent pay cut this year (called "furloughs" in hopes that it won't be permanent). But we have it good compared to California employees, who are looking at 6% plus. On the other hand, we're among the lowest paid faculty in the upper midwest, and we haven't had a raise in like 5 years (our promised raise last year, 2%, was cut in addition to the 3% cut).

Education is expensive and you can't really outsource it. Even if you pay instructors modest wages, you're still paying ever increasing health and benefits costs. It's hard to make educational productivity grow in the same way that industries have made productivity increase through greater automation and such. Students aren't widgets. (Our cost increases are somewhat similar to those in medicine and for some of the same reasons, though their salaries tend to be a whole lot better.)

And now, I have to get back to grading. Sorry for writing such a long response.

eofelis

11-22-2009, 10:12 PM

I feel like I graduated just in time. Well, just in time for an employment bust, but also before it all hits the fan here in Colorado in terms of higher education.

I was a very non-trad student (41, 42 in a few days!) and I just got a BS in geology, minor in GIS from a small, cheap, kind-of-mediocre state college.

I breathe a sigh of relief everyday that I was able to get enough "free" money every semester that I didn't have to take out any loans. Every year I applied for every grant and scholarship that I could. I kept my GPA (3.8) up to get the good scholarships. I got enough money most every semester to pay f/t tuition ($2000-2500) and some living expenses. I usually worked p/t on campus.

The Boy graduated with the same degrees from the same college in 2006. His 4.0 GPA helped get him plenty of scholarships also.

We have been working as sub-contractors lately, kind of p/t. We continue to live cheap and we won't starve.

We are starting to consider grad school. We'd like to go somewhere where can both go and coordinate our schedules.

Aquila

11-23-2009, 05:47 PM

SurlyPacer,

Congrats!

Before you head for grad school, make sure you get a really good sense of how long your degree will actually take (what's the time to degree for your actual program) and what the employment opportunities are like. For PhDs who want to go into academics in most fields, the employment opportunities are really lousy.

For example, the average time to degree for a PhD in English (after a BA) is 8.4 years.

1/3 of people who start PhDs in the humanities don't finish.

And of those who finish, in English, almost 1/3 will never get a tenure track job.

That means there's a huge opportunity cost for pursuing a PhD in English. It's not a bad thing to do, but you should go in with your eyes wide open.

ginny

11-24-2009, 07:59 AM