looking at trek and gary fischer... need advice!

[plmill3]

Hello! I have fallen in love with mountain biking using my boyfriends old HT gary fischer, a 17" that we shortened with a shorter stem and added a riser bar to better accommodate my smaller more upright frame.
Next spring I would love to make the transition to a FS bike, and we can get a pro deal only on Trek and Gary Fischer, so naturally I am looking at those companies. While I know the only real way to see if a bike fits is to test ride, I would love to see if anyone has any experiential advice that may aid my quest.
My questions are: #1. I am 5'5" and about 145#, so while I am smaller I am not that light. Does my not-exactly light frame preclude me from the intended benefits of a WSD bike... would a smaller men's bike better accommodate me?
#2. In terms of WSD bikes, does anyone have experience with the Trek Fuel Ex8 WSD or a Gary Fischer HiFi Deluxe GS? What are your opinions on them?
#3. Are there any women who are currently riding the men's versions of these bikes or something somewhat similar, such as the Trek Remedy? If so, what do you think?

Thank you ladies! I can't wait to keep improving on a new delicious bicycle.

[Aggie_Ama]

WSD is generally smaller bars, shorter top tube, shorter standover, lighter frames.

I have a Gary Fisher Hifi Deluxe in the WSD and I LOVE IT! For me the small is a perfect fit, I am 5'2", about 160 right now, with a sorta long inseam, my reach seems long but I have a really short torso. I would say 145 is not exactly a heavyweight. :p

I was unable to demo a GF but did ride a Specialized Safire and hated it - it was too short a cockpit for me. My LBS has known me for a while so they ordered the Hifi with no deposit even though they don't stock it. Even in the parking lot I could tell it was for me. I spent some time curb hopping, trying to lay my belly on the seat, getting off the back, doing drills like that and even found a short hill of grass to try off asphalt. They also had a 1 week ride and love guarantee. So I was lucky there. Once I got it on dirt I knew it was for me.

One bit of advice I got in GF has a really different geometry and you either love it or hate it. Obviously I love it. Some women hate WSD altogether, I believe in it but I am built for the changes in frames.

Can you get in on a Trek/GF demo day? Our LBS is hosting one this weekend, I know they tour around doing them.

Oh- here is the thread for advice on GF I got: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=32268

[ivorygorgon]

I have a GF Tassajara. I should preface any of comments by saying that I am an extreme beginner and a really sucky rider :)

I am having some problems with the GF geometry. My bike is a "men's" bike. I am such a complete noob I had no idea what I was testing for when I bought it.

I am having a lot of discomfort because the reach is really long. We have moved my seat all the way forward. We have narrowed the width of the bars, but need to narrow them some more. We are getting ready to shorten the stem. I am not sure can ever make this bike work for me, but we are trying.

Just my $.02.

[Kathi]

I have a GF Tassajara. I should preface any of comments by saying that I am an extreme beginner and a really sucky rider :)

I am having some problems with the GF geometry. My bike is a "men's" bike. I am such a complete noob I had no idea what I was testing for when I bought it.

I am having a lot of discomfort because the reach is really long. We have moved my seat all the way forward. We have narrowed the width of the bars, but need to narrow them some more. We are getting ready to shorten the stem. I am not sure can ever make this bike work for me, but we are trying.

Just my $.02.

Have they checked the seatpost? If there is a setback on the seatpost a zero degree seatpost will bring you closer to the center of the bike. You may need some rise on the stem which will bring you up and back. Handlebars could be too low. Another possibility is you need a steeper seattube angle.

Please keep in mind that I am not a bike fitter only a rider who has experienced the same issues as you. I'm on my 3rd mtn bike, the 1st 2 had the slack seat tube angle and when I bought them I didn't know better and bikes with steeper angle weren't available. No matter what we did the bikes didn't fit. My current bike has the steeper seat angle, zero degree seatpost and has resolved most of my fit issues.

You can test ride a bike with a steeper seat tube angle to see what the difference is. Ask for a 74 + seat angle often found on frames marketed to women. Also try to ride for more than a 10 minute cruise around the parking lot before you decide.

Keep in mind the only way to know what you need is to see a qualified bike fitter and learn your fit needs. A bike that fits your body will make your handling better which will result in developing better skills. Only you can decide how passionate you are about mtn biking and whether it's worth it to you to find a person who can better fit on your bike. Plus, playing the "quessing game" with bike fit is a frustrating experience.

[fatbottomedgurl]

I ride the Trek Fuel EX 9. I test rode the WSD Fuel- way too short in the cockpit for me (I have a long torso, short legs). I like my Fuel- handles well, climbs well. Tires needed to go, however.

[Yelsel]

Your weight has nothing to do with it; you could be twice the weight and not have a problem on either type of bike. (And you are not overweight - your BMI is normal, and you are definitely in the lower percentiles of weight / height.)

The two typical measurements in a fit system for standover are inseam and torso. Measure your inseam by putting your feet 6" apart, jamming a thick book in your crotch, standing against a wall to level the book. Ideally get someone to help you with the measurements -- measure down the ground for inseam. Measure up to the dip in the clavicle bone for the "traditional" torso measurement -- a T-square, level, or plumb bob helps with these measurements.

If your inseam:torso length is between 1 and 1.2, then the "fit" guide will suggest a mens/unisex top tube length.

A couple of caveats, which kind of cancel each other out: the *important* torso measurement is actually to the middle of the shoulder joint, not the dip in the clavicle. You don't use your torso above your shoulder joint for reach! Per Gale Bernhard's research -- she has this in all her books -- men and women have the same average effective torso length, while men have more distance between their shoulder joint and clavicle. So this suggests that women on average just need smaller bikes, not ones with especially short top tubes.

Riding style really has the most to do with a comfortable top tube length, though! On average, women seem to prefer a slightly more upright / less agressive angle than men, which might have to do with women's hip geometry and/or narrower shoulders on average (based on the way I ride, I'm voting for the latter). So shorter top tubes work better for a lot of women... so shorter top tubes are the answer for a lot of women, though ironically not because of actual (average) physical geometry differences in torso length.

I have a 32" inseam, my inseam:torso ratio is 1.1. My arms are slightly on the long side ("positive ape" of 2 inches -- 2 inches longer from tip to tip than my height). I do have wider shoulders than average for a woman, which I think might be an underappreciated metric for preferred riding style. My hands are large enough to handle "typical" bike components - I take a small / medium in men's gloves (I'd still love the short-reach STI levers, though). When I was looking for a bike in 2005/2006, women's styles in general didn't go up to my size (54-56 in women's); I rode a Terry but all the other bikes were men's. Just by feel, the Bianchi felt the best -- I took it home stock (after a real fitting) -- Bianchis have shorter top tubes than average for men/unisex, which is why I think these bikes are really popular among women that don't ride a women's specific bike. (They also effectively don't have women's bikes -- two bikes is not a line!).

Trek and Gary Fisher have some of the longest top tubes in their men's / unisex. On paper the women's should fit me better, though the top tube is a bit shorter than what I ride now. But women's bikes typically get a lot of their top tube shortening by steepening the seat tube -- which puts you closer to the pedals, which is not what you want for longer legs! If you move the seat back, then you are lengthening the cockpit anyway. I'm not knocking these manufacturers at all -- but neither geometry works well for me, so it is good that I know that. (I have a Giant Anthem on layaway, which has a very similar equivalent cockpit length to what I ride now.)

Instead of top tube length, a better metric is cockpit length - from your butt to your hands; this is getting to be more common for mountain bike manufacturers to include because frame styles vary more widely. I know GF reports this, I don't remember for Trek. They report the "stock" cockpit length, and minimum and maximum (moving seat fore/aft and swapping for typical stem lengths).

The bottom line is ride bikes from a lot of manufacturers, and find the one that is most comfortable for you. All of the major manufacturers have very similar frame performance, weight, and components at comparable non-elite (aka sub-4k) prices. If you absolutely hate the component line stock on the bike, you can generally swap out comparable parts in a different line for little to no cost on a new bike.

[Aggie_Ama]

One thing I did was print the geometry chart of the Specialized (which I knew I hated), the Trek Fuel WSD and the Gary Fisher Hifi Deluxe (which I ride). How is you relationship with the LBS? Can you test ride or rent? Can you return it if it is absolutely the wrong bike? Can you try other brands? Just some things I was able to do which I think really helped me know my Fisher is the perfect bike for me.

[blackhillsbiker]

You might consider trying Kona, as well. The geometry is not as compact as a WSD, but they seem to fit me better than GF, which stretches me out way too much. I test rode a Cinder Cone that felt pretty good. I have a 32" inseam and am 5'8" with a long torso and long arms.

Deb

[Irulan]

I am having a lot of discomfort because the reach is really long. We have moved my seat all the way forward. We have narrowed the width of the bars, but need to narrow them some more. We are getting ready to shorten the stem. I am not sure can ever make this bike work for me, but we are trying.

sound to me like you should just pitch the bike you are on. Trying to make something work through stem adjustments and seat fore/aft adjustments is stop gap. That kind of jerry rig fit will rarely give you a bike you love to ride.

Remeber that WSD is typically proportioned for shorter torso, longer legs. Try lots of bikes, including non wds bikes. I have four mountain bikes that all fit me great, only one is wsd.

[plmill3]

So far I have been able to test ride a friends 16" Trek Fuel ex8 WSD and the men's 15.5" version, and I will say that I did not enjoy the shorter effective tube top of the WSD model at all. My friend who rides it has longer legs than me and it looks like it fits her well, but for me I found that my belly seemed awkwardly close to the handle bars and my arms were not engaged in my riding as I was very upright. The men's version handled beautifully however, and I very well may look to buy that exact bike off its owner. I would probably need to put a shorter stem and narrower handle bars on it, but I felt more engaged and balanced with the extra stretch of the longer tube.

One last question though... has anyone or does anyone ride the trek rememdy? The trek rememdy 7 would definately stretch my budget, but boy does it look like a fun ride!! Unfortunately no one around here has one that would remotely fit me, and all the stores sold out of them a while back so I'd have to wait til spring for a sample. Please let me know what you think if you've had any experience with one! Thank you!

[Kathi]

Keep in mind that your friends bikes are set up for them not you. The WSD bike with adjustments might be a better fit than the men's bike. For example, my fitter just put a new stem with higher rise, on my mtn bike. The stem raised me up and back so my reach is better. It feels like an entirely different bike, mainly the tt feels shorter. However, my same height girlfriend might think my tt is too small or to upright without realizing the stem is making it the tt feel shorter and the handlebars feel higher.

The best way to find the right bike is to learn your needs with a bike fit. It will save you from the guessing game of bike fit. Then go shopping. If you don't want to do it that way demo bikes but make sure the person you are dealing with can do minor adjustments that will make the bike feel comfortable.

This link has some thoughts on how to buy a bicycle.

http://masterbikefitters.com/how-to-buy-a-new-bike

Good luck :)

[Aggie_Ama]

If you didn't like the Trek WSD you may like the Fisher WSD. It has a slightly longer top tube but will already have the smaller bars and shorter stem you might prefer.

[Andrea]

I think you should try a small Superfly 100 :D

[plmill3]

So I ended up jumping on a great deal for a 2008 Trek Fuel ex8, 15.5" (not WSD), and ladies... I LOVE IT! It fits perfect, climbs wonderfully, and of course eats up the rocky terrain that used to knock me around on the old HT. I couldn't pass up the great price, and the guy I bought it off had upgraded virtually all the specs. I'm definately happy with the geometry over the WSD, but who knows, that may be because I've been riding a man's bike and have developed my riding style around the geometry. Regardless, I very much appreciate all the good insights and advice! Thank you!