Relationship/trust probs...

[Like2bike2]

I know a lot of people on this forum so I created a new account before posting.

Question for those of you who are married: what would you think if you found out your husband had filled out a profile on a "swinger's" website? Well, mine did several months ago and I am furious! He said he signed up because he was curious but never did anything. That sounds like load of BS to me and I just can't get over it. I don't trust him and now he's headed to Las Vegas for a work trip and all I can think about are the hookers and strippers there.

Some background: our relationship has been pretty rocky lately (married 6 years). Even so, I can't imagine why someone would use that as a reason to cheat.

I posted on this site because there are a lot of nice, "normal" women and I value your opinion and advice. He has shrugged this off and gets mad whenever I bring it up. Um, hello- I have every reason to be mad.

I have caught my husband lying a lot over the years and I am having a hard believing him now.

[Grog]

Counseling?

[owlice]

I'm sorry.

Sounds like it's definitely time for counseling, both individual (for you, at least, even if he won't consider it) and marriage, if he will consent to go. I suspect he will not go, but please consider it for yourself so that you have some clarity when you make your decisions.

Think hard about what you will really want if you find out he's been cheating. You do not need to act too quickly (as I did when I found out about my husband's affair).

And is there any way that you can go to Las Vegas with him? (I don't want an answer to this; just putting it out there so you can think about it.)

[KnottedYet]

He has shrugged this off and gets mad whenever I bring it up. Um, hello- I have every reason to be mad.

I have caught my husband lying a lot over the years and I am having a hard believing him now.

A little time apart might be good. I was in a similar-ish situation once, and being in the same house made it very hard to think straight. You packing up you and yours and going to a relative's or friend's for that week isn't going to change his behaviour (if he's a cheater, he'll cheat whether you are there or not). And it won't change what-ever he is planning to do in Vegas.

But it might give you a bit of clear space to think, and a little support with the little details of life while you think.

(And it keeps you from stewing quite so much in your concern about what he's doing while he's gone.)

Sent you a PM to this account.

[Tuckervill]

That's just horrible, and would be a deal breaker for me. Take evasive action. Don't have sex with him. Get your money together--whether it's a savings account in your own name or whatever you can do--just put some money aside for yourself in case you do find out he's been cheating. The lying is not going to change in my opinion. If he'd keep this from you, what else is he hiding? Don't give him any more of your life than is necessary.

I really hope there are not kids involved. I feel for you.

Karen

[channlluv]

I don't really have any advice for you. I know how heartbroken I think I'd feel in your place, but until you walk in someone's shoes, it's really hard to offer up any guidance. I do send hugs, though, and I think Tucker and Knot both offer good advice borne of experience, and that's the best kind.

Roxy

[Trek420]

I don't have any advice, it's hard to know what to do, what will work for another person. I do send hugs. Lots of wisdom here on this board, Knott and others here are very wise.:cool:

Yes, his saying he registered on a swingers sounds like total BS. If he's curious there are books on the subject. If he's so curious go read about it and talk to YOU.

But doing this behind your back, that's not good.

I've never been in the same situation, been lied to in a relationship yes but not the same as this. However I can imagine how I'd feel if this happened to me and I'd be pretty ticked off. :mad:

What others have said I'd make sure that you're financially and emotionally safe.

[Like2bike2]

No kids yet- he wants them but I can't imagine having a child and then something happens...and I am left alone raising it. No bueno.

I have a couple "exit strategies" in place should I need to leave.

I told him it's either counseling or it's off.

[aeiea]

I totally agree with the other posters here. Counseling would be very helpful.

However, I do want to provide a second perspective. Living in fairly liberal places, I know people (myself included) who are or used to be in "swinging" relationships, others in open relationships... this works for some couples well. Celebrities like Dolly Parton and Sting partake in this. One can argue both ways when it comes to polyamory vs monogamy, but both (all) parties need to honestly discuss and embrace whichever the partnership has agreed upon, even if it changes.

Note that you know your husband most, and the fact that he's lied in the past about other things does not bode well on his part. Worse, that he's shrugging it off... is he embarrassed? Or does he want to avoid an argument? Or does he not care to discuss the topic with you?

There are many reasons why people would cheat. Sometimes it's due to the relationship. Other times it's due to the fact that it makes them feel good about themselves, even though they are hurting the person they should be caring about most. I never understood it, and I don't think I will.

I'm sorry you are going through this, and many hugs. Looks like you have a strong plan in mind.

[salsabike]

Like2bike2, I'm sorry. It's painful stuff.

I don't usually post about people's personal stuff because I often don't know the person well enough to feel qualified to comment. But.

Lying is an absolute, not a relative, problem. I think that's really fair and accurate to say. I don't think habitual lying and good relationships can ever go together. Integrity matters.

I am really sorry. You will get through this and come out the other side---that's not always easy to remember when you're in the midst...but you will.

[teigyr]

Ok, this is against my better judgment!

I am married. If I found out my husband did this, I would ask him why. An appropriate answer is not curiosity. An appropriate answer would be what was truly going on with him. Then we would decide, between the two of us, if there was any point in pursuing our marriage. If he did not want to participate in this discussion, then it would be my decision to make and I would move on with my life. He could, perhaps, come along but he would have to actually communicate instead of doing things behind my back.

I don't know where you live but my guess is there are a lot of hookers and strippers there too...though they might be slightly cheaper and a LOT more convenient.

Integrity matters, as Salsabike said. I think we all goof up in our lives but those goof-ups are more to do with accidentally leaving your shoes in the living room. You don't accidentally sign up for a swingers website.

Oh and I also think relationships aren't a reason why people cheat. Anyone who truly wants to cheat can come up with lots of fine reasons why they should. A person who won't cheat, won't. They might end their marriage if it isn't working but they will do that before they actually betray someone.

[Mr. Bloom]

Like: I hope you don't mind me chiming in here.

I have nothing to say that will justify what he's done. Trust is precious and if you can't completely trust someone, you can't trust them at all. On the otherhand, the worst thing that one spouse can do to another in a situation like this is to place the offending spouse in a "fishbowl" inspecting their every movement (please research the psychological concept of "projective identification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification)").

I like what teigyr says and I think counseling is best.

I also encourage you to evaluate your emotions on this; many in this situation would feel "hurt", but "furious" is a much stronger emotion that indicates to me that counseling and reconciliation may be beneficial.

If you both want to work this out, please don't assume that the issues are "one way" in the relationship; if you both don't want to work this out, then counseling isn't going to work.

I wish you the best in sorting this out.

[indigoiis]

It would be over. Not worth fixing. But that's just me.

[Pax]

It would be over. Not worth fixing. But that's just me.

Same here, this sentence specifically "I have caught my husband lying a lot over the years and I am having a hard believing him now". would make it impossible to trust, and without trust I'd be gone.

[Trek420]

Ok, this is against my better judgement but it would not hurt to get yourself tested for HIV. You say he's got a pattern of dishonesty, seems to be at least toying with the idea of infidelity. Hate to mention this but if there's a tendency to lie about some things has he actually done anything?

Whether the marriage continues or you move on this is one thing you gotta know.

[sfa]

I have caught my husband lying a lot over the years and I am having a hard believing him now.

I think that line is the most telling from your post. This isn't just about his interest in swingers--that in itself could be anything from what he says it is, just curiosity, to something that endangers not just your marriage but also your health. And I could even understand him wanting to hide it from you--it's not a curiosity most people would be proud of. But it sounds like there's a history in your marriage of lying, and that has eroded the trust that is absolutely necessary in a marriage, so you're left in this situation where what he's doing could possibly really be no big deal (curiosity) and could possibly be a really really big deal and you have absolutely no way of knowing which one it is because you can't trust him to tell the truth about it. And THAT is a really really big deal.

It's up to you to decide if it's worth fixing. Counseling for yourself would be the first step, and marriage counseling as well. It will probably be a long and difficult road, and no guarantee that things will get better in the end. Honestly, if I were in your situation with no kids and a history of problems, I'd be inclined to cut my losses and leave, but I'd want to try counseling first to see what comes up--it's entirely possible that I'd find out that *I'm* the problem--someone with control and trust issues (not saying that's you--I'm saying that would be ME in all likelihood) and I'd want to know that either to save my marriage or to head into a new relationship with a better understanding of myself.

You also asked what we would think if we found out our husband had filled out a profile on a swingers website. For my relationship with my DH, I'd think "ewww" but it wouldn't go any further than that because I do trust him, and he has been honest with me throughout our relationship, both in little and big things, so if he told me it was curiosity, I'd believe him. I'm not saying he's perfect, and I know he lies about some things (everyone does) but not about anything important--and by important, in a strong relationship that means important to BOTH people. Even if your DH thinks something isn't a big deal, if it is to you, then it should be to him too.

Sarah

[Cataboo]

I think there's sometimes curiousity - I know that I've occasionally explored the naughty sections on craiglist or the personals. Often with friends, just to laugh and say what the heck? I'm not looking for a relationship, definitely not a casual encounter, but just peeking.

However, I'm able to tell my bf, oh hey, I was looking on craigslist and make some joke comparing him to the pics I saw or whatever... Given that I don't have a history of lying to him, he trusts me enough to take it at face value.

You don't have that with your husband, which means that something's fundamentally wrong in the relationship. You're hesitant to have children with him because of it... So it just boils down to... do you want to try to fix this, which you can only work if you're both willing... OR should you cut your losses and stop investing so much of your time and yourself and move on with your life without him? And that's really your own choice.

I know some personals sites won't let you peek if you don't actually register and make an account. (sometimes a friend'll send me a "what do yout hink of this girl or guy?). Registering doesn't require setting up a profile, so I guess it sort of depends on what his profile says if that's an excuse for him at all.

[ginny]

Hi, I have to chime in to agree with Trek. If you do not know that your significant other has only been with you, then you owe it to yourself to be tested for the gamut of STDs. I'm so sorry for your situation. I agree with others that I have known people in 'open' relationships. I couldn't be in one myself, but that's just me. The key to an 'open' relationship is that BOTH partners know about the openness (otherwise, it's cheating), agree to guidelines, and have safe parameters. Without these in place, the "openness" is just what I said above, cheating. I too would have a hard time trusting, but at this point, protect yourself. I wouldn't have unprotected sex with him any longer, and I would begin setting money aside as well. Begin to disentangle your finances from him. When I was in a heartbreaking situation, I put my horse in my mother's name so he wouldn't try to take her, and I began to establish accounts under my mom's name too so that he couldn't claim access to those accounts. I do not know whether or not these things would have helped if it had gotten really nasty with him, but it did give me some peace of mind. I'm so sorry. You will get through this - just take it a day at a time...

[indigoiis]

My 1st husband and I managed an apt. house and had a vacant apt. on the first floor. He was going down there to telephone 1-900 numbers. I found out when I saw a bill in his name for the phone, and opened it to pay it. I called the phone co. and said, "we have never ever called these 900 numbers - this must be a case of stolen identity." and they said, "no, these calls were made." So I asked him and he admitted to calling them. That was the first inkling I got that he wasn't happy with me - I wasn't enough for him. We were divorced within the year.

In that breakup I was dishonest with him, too. And you know, keeping up the lies - keeping the truth from him - really sucked. It's a sucky way to live. I vowed with the 2nd to not ever lie and so far so good. You give what you get, I guess! And it sounds like your mister is giving you zilch!

[lph]

sfa made a good point. Just to be devil's advocate - it could be that he really is fascinated by the swingers thing, and that he spends time thinking about it, or has talked to friends about it, but hasn't brought it up because he was afraid you'd be upset. He could be dreaming about doing this with you, but just can't get up the guts to talk about it. So he's satisfying his curiosity and is embarrassed at being found out. So how would you react if you went to counselling and this is what he said? (You don't have to answer, I'm being retorical here).

But the lying bit is bad. It doesn't sound like he is trying to be honest with you, or attempting to make things work. You don't have to tell the whole truth all the time, but outright lying is not a good thing and shows disrespect most of all.

What is a dealbreaker for one relationship can be just petty details, or even a fresh start for another one, but large portions of trust, honesty and respect are pretty basic requisites for a longterm healthy relationship. You have to consider if the two of you are willing to work on this I guess.

[nsandz]

I would like to say congrats to you for standing your ground. I feel that even if he is telling the truth, BOTH of you are important in this relationship. If you are having trouble understanding his behavior then he has no right to shrug it off. Like many other have said counseling is probably the best route to go. I wish you the best of luck and hope that it all turns out well.

[Mr. Bloom]

nsandz +1

[tctrek]

I think all the posts have valuable information, but the big question is: Do you love him enough to fight for your marriage? I think many marriages go through hard times and there's something about the 6-7 year mark -- it's really hard. It's a trying time when people are asking "is this all there is?" and wondering what the rest of their life is going to look like.

If you love him, then tell him and ask him to join you to fight for your marriage. There was something there that brought you together and you need to figure out if it's still there.

If you don't feel love for him, and you don't trust him, and maybe it's just not worth it to you, then put get yourself free.

I was married twice when I was young. I was devastated that I made such awful mistakes and thought I was such a loser. Then I met my DH and it has now been 22 years. Lots of ups and downs, but always enough love to see us through. He needs to be your best friend, and you don't treat your best friend the way he is treating you.

[Andrea]

I think that Teigyr is mostly spot-on... I imagine getting to the root of "why" is something that a counselor would do. However, even if you get good counseling and you "fix" every aspect of your relationship and have a wonderful & happy home, a cheater will always be tempted to cheat... it's almost like a type of addiction. (I'm assuming that even if he's never actually cheated that posting something on a swingers site probably means he'd be willing to)

Oh yeah- and for the most part, swinger sites aren't populated by hookers and strippers... they're generally "normal" people that don't follow "normal" sexual rules. (not that it justifies what this guy is doing or anything)

[Biciclista]

request complete honesty; if he won't level with you, there's serious problems here.

get counseling. if he won't go; that's your answer.

I couldn't do it. You got a lot of good advice here. good luck.

[kenyonchris]

Hmmm. Everyone here is giving you great advice, I am not sure this is going to help you, but I see a lot of people with marital problems (sometimes on a domestic dispute, a custody issue with the kids, a property dispute, an attempted suicide, and a variety of other satellite problems that pop up when two people who live together start to sleep with one eye open).

Regardless of whether he has signed up on a swinger's site or whatever, if it is something he has hidden from you, lied about, or does secretly, its a problem...and it is going to manifest itself in other areas. You don't trust him, he's not honest with you, ya'll have a major issue. Don't wait for the other shoe to drop. If you think you guys have a stable enough base to get back on track, get someone to help you do it. If you don't, move on...either way, do it now.

I knew two very nice elderly people who did the swinger thing. But both of them knew about the other's activities, and they were good with it. Not for me, but it worked for them.

[tulip]

Couples counseling, if you want to pursue the marriage.

Individual counseling even if you don't want to pursue the marriage. This will help you decide if you want to work on the marriage. It will also likely help you work on yourself. It's quite easy to say that he's the bad guy here, that he's looking to cheat, that he's lied before...and all that is very legit to be concerned about. But there are two people, and rarely, if ever, in a marriage are the problems solely on one person. Individual (and couples) counseling will help you work on yourself. And that's all you can work on, really. You cannot control what other people do. You can only control what you do.

Best wishes for a resolution that furthers your happiness in life.
-tulip

[OakLeaf]

even if you get good counseling and you "fix" every aspect of your relationship and have a wonderful & happy home, a cheater will always be tempted to cheat... it's almost like a type of addiction. (I'm assuming that even if he's never actually cheated that posting something on a swingers site probably means he'd be willing to)

I have nothing to add to the good advice others have given like2bike2, but I have to comment on that, because I don't think it's accurate.

I cheated on my first husband. I'm not proud of it, but there it is. It was a symptom, not a cause, of the many things that were wrong with our marriage, but my acting on those feelings obviously didn't help anything.

In 15 years I've never once felt an impulse to cheat on my present husband.

Healthy individuals in a healthy relationship will not "cheat" (agreeing to an open relationship is something different). Adultery is NOT an "addiction," and even if it were, addicts can and do get clean when they have a relationship they value more than their junk.

Like2bike2, I hope that you find a resolution that heals your heart and makes you feel valuable to yourself.

[tulip]

I have nothing to add to the good advice others have given like2bike2, but I have to comment on that, because I don't think it's accurate.

+1000

[teigyr]

Healthy individuals in a healthy relationship will not "cheat"

But see the operative word is "healthy" in both cases. I think there are exceptions but there will be people who will cheat no matter how seemingly perfect their relationship is. I've seen proof of that. I also know that there are people who will not cheat, no matter how bad their relationship. I've seen proof of that too. It's not to say they meekly accept whatever's going on but they talk, go through counseling, separate, and then divorce. DH is in that category and one of the things I respect about him is he wouldn't even meet me in person (we have a mutual friend who introduced us) until his final court date for his divorce. He had one of the most hellish marriages I've ever heard of.

So, it is what it is. For OP though, I think if there is suspicion and a bit of proof, then go with your instinct. Mr. Silver had a good point about being overly "parental" (can't remember the exact phrase) because you can only control so much. He needs to talk to you and say exactly what's going on in his head. If your marriage is worth it to him, and I hope that it is, he will do what it takes to ensure you are able to communicate and have a trustful marriage.

[Mr. Bloom]

Healthy individuals in a healthy relationship will not "cheat" (agreeing to an open relationship is something different). Adultery is NOT an "addiction," and even if it were, addicts can and do get clean when they have a relationship they value more than their junk.


I agree to a point. We may be splitting hairs here, but adultery addiction does exist, we simply call it something different - hypersexuality and pathological lying are recognized clinical disorders; adultery can be a symptom of these disorders IMHO...but I also would agree that they are better controlled in a healthy relationship, albeit, it would be hard for me to imagine someone with these disorders actually having a healthy relationship.

I'm curious how like2 is receiving all these thoughts and if the situation has evolved/improved any...

[limewave]

I agree to a point. We may be splitting hairs here, but adultery addiction does exist, we simply call it something different - hypersexuality and pathological lying are recognized clinical disorders; adultery can be a symptom of these disorders IMHO...but I also would agree that they are better controlled in a healthy relationship, albeit, it would be hard for me to imagine someone with these disorders actually having a healthy relationship.

I'm curious how like2 is receiving all these thoughts and if the situation has evolved/improved any...

I think if you are "hypersexual" or are a "pathological lyer"--that disqualifies you from being a "healthy individual." And I would think you'd have to be a healthy individual before you can be in a healthy relationship. Not that you can't get treatment or be cured from those things . . . .

[Like2bike2]

Thanks for all of the good advice. I tasked my husband with finding a counselor...we'll see how that goes.

[tulip]

I agree to a point. We may be splitting hairs here, but adultery addiction does exist, we simply call it something different - hypersexuality and pathological lying are recognized clinical disorders; adultery can be a symptom of these disorders IMHO...but I also would agree that they are better controlled in a healthy relationship, albeit, it would be hard for me to imagine someone with these disorders actually having a healthy relationship.

I'm curious how like2 is receiving all these thoughts and if the situation has evolved/improved any...

To continue the discussion...it appears you are equating adultery with sexual addiction. That's pretty simplistic. I disagree with you that someone who commits adultery automatically has a "disorder," which connotes a pathology, a disease. There are two people in a marriage, and each has equal responsibility to make that marriage work--in all sorts of ways. Marriage is not solely about sex, and neither is adultery.

[Zen]

Marriage is not solely about sex, and neither is adultery.

I have to chime in and agree that that is indeed, the crux of the biscuit.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

To continue the discussion...it appears you are equating adultery with sexual addiction. That's pretty simplistic. I disagree with you that someone who commits adultery automatically has a "disorder," which connotes a pathology, a disease.

My impression from reading his words is that Mr. Silver did not say or imply that. Wasn't he talking about 'adultery addiction' as opposed to simply adultery?
...as in addiction, meaning "the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma."
He also said that adultery could be a symptom of a disorder such as hypersexuality and pathological lying. He did not say or imply that people who commit adultery automatically have a disorder.
Also, a minor point, but- a 'disorder' does not necessarily connote a disease or pathology, but rather:
"a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions; malady or dysfunction as in: a mild stomach disorder".

[tulip]

My impression from reading his words is that Mr. Silver did not say or imply that. Wasn't he talking about 'adultery addiction' as opposed to simply adultery?
...as in addiction, meaning "the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma."
He also said that adultery could be a symptom of a disorder such as hypersexuality and pathological lying. He did not say or imply that people who commit adultery automatically have a disorder.
Also, a minor point, but- a 'disorder' does not necessarily connote a disease or pathology, but rather:
"a disturbance in physical or mental health or functions; malady or dysfunction as in: a mild stomach disorder".


Lisa, perhaps I should have taken out my dictionary.

However, I stand by my point.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

There are two people in a marriage, and each has equal responsibility to make that marriage work--in all sorts of ways. Marriage is not solely about sex, and neither is adultery.

I certainly do agree with these points. :)

[Mr. Bloom]

I am acquainted with the situation - no, it's not me.

First, Lisa did interpret my meaning precisely.

But, to expand - there are MANY non-sexual forms of adultery. Adultery is one form of rebellion. Rebellion may have a psychological basis in a disease or disorder OR, it may be caused by other non-pathological social motivators.