going double to triple

[wnyrider]

I currently have a Campagnolo 10 speed 39-53 (front) compact double with a 12-23 (rear). I am considering having my front crank swapped out with a 30-42-53 triple (front), maybe this one: http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=405909

This would be done strictly to help me out on some of the hills I am trying to conquer. I have gone to the Sheldon site and plugged in the numbers for gearing. But, I don't understand the information.

Is there an easy answer as to whether I'd be gaining that much more in lower gearing? Would I easily notice it riding uphill or would it be more subtle?

[alpinerabbit]

uh, you would definitely notice something, considering what you currently have (53-39) is not a compact but a regular double.
(no one except complete flatlanders and pros should be riding a reglar double... my most humble of opinions. Over here, we call it the "hero" crank, as in heroism=unnecessary silliness)

this means you can already gain considerable climbing ease by solely swapping out the crank set to, say, a 50-34 (that's a compact), and save $ on the front derailler.


Also, you can change out the cassette to up to a 13-29 with Campy. and that will help.

[wnyrider]

... gain considerable climbing ease by solely swapping out the crank set to, say, a 50-34 (that's a compact), and save $ on the front derailler.

Also, you can change out the cassette to up to a 13-29 with Campy. and that will help.


Wow, I had no idea. I was told it was a compact and not knowing the difference, just accepted it. :p Thanks! So your suggestion of a 50-34 is being noted. But, could I not also solely use the triple using the same derailler, as well as leaving the original cassette?
Or-- was your added information regarding the 13-29 cassette give me the same effect I am seeking with the triple?

[Pedal Wench]

A 13-29 is a great option - I use that with my compact and can climb just about anything. If you switch to a Campy triple, you'll also need a new bottom bracket along with a new front derailleur. A compact is a great place to start, and since cassettes do wear out in time, next time, try the 13-29, or just do the swap now, since it might be time for a new cassette anyway.

[myjas]

Don.t forget you would have to change your shifter also.

[wnyrider]

A 13-29 is a great option - I use that with my compact and can climb just about anything. If you switch to a Campy triple, you'll also need a new bottom bracket along with a new front derailleur. A compact is a great place to start, and since cassettes do wear out in time, next time, try the 13-29, or just do the swap now, since it might be time for a new cassette anyway.

Thanks for the info! I am now looking up a 50-34 crank to buy. Please correct me if I am wrong-- I could swap out my current crank for the 50-34 AND swap out the cassette for the 13-29 and can keep all the other parts of old?

I just noticed myjas comment regarding shifter... did you mean if I went with a triple?

[silver]

yes, I believe that myjas means if you switch to the triple.

I agree with the other posters. I don't recommend that you go to a triple with your current setup.

(I actually don't recommend triples at all, but that opens a WHOLE nuther can of worms...I realize that some riding scenarios call for them but I don't feel that they shift as well...but this is coming from me who rides a regular double ("(no one except complete flatlanders and pros should be riding a reglar double... my most humble of opinions. Over here, we call it the "hero" crank, as in heroism=unnecessary silliness)") I ride a 53/39 - 12-27 on my road bike and 52/38 - 11-27 on my tri bike. Final thing is I don't know anything about Campy and what gearing the derailleurs will handle. you should check with your bike shop to be sure that the derailleurs will handle the gearing that you are talking about.

When looking at Shelton's Gear calculator....

currently you have 53/39 - 12-23. with 39-23 you have 3.3%

if you only switched out the cassette from 12-23 to 12-27 you would go to 2.8% (recommended. easy and cheapest)

if you switched the cassette to 13-29 your ratio would be 2.6% but i'm worried that you may need a new or adjusted rear derailleur. I could be totally wrong but you should check that out just to be sure)

f you only switched out the double to the triple you would get (53/42/30 - 12-23) using 30 - 23 the ratio would be 2.6% (not recommended, probably have to change derailleurs, bottom brackets, shifters)

50/34 - 12/27 the lower right hand box says 2.5%. That's the ratio that you have when your are using your little front ring (34)and your largest cog (27) (good option for best ratio, but will cost more than just changing cassette)

and finally, if you went all out, 50/34 - 13-29 your ratio would be a mere 2.3 %

Was that too much info?.....I was having way too much fun with that gear calculator.

[tzvia]

I used to run 53-39 with a 12-23 back before there were compacts, and I could never figure out why I hated hills so much. Even little ones were way too much! Then I treated myself to a new carbon fiber bike with compact gearing, and a 12-25 last year. Oh my G@d! I can ride hills! I can ride hills! Finally, after years of toil and no improvement, I can actually go UP!

As was already said here, triples should be avoided if possible IMO. They compromise shifting and they are heavier (remember it is rotating weight, which will feel 3 times heavier than it is as it is moving faster than you). I would do a 12-27 rear as going to a 29 might require a long cage rear derailleur and frankly you will notice a BIG difference just doing the 27.

[alpinerabbit]

:o let's relegate the double vs. triple debate of principles to the search function, it's raged here before....

however:

yes, you can go to 29 on Campy without needing a long cage der - the chain wrap capacity is sufficient.

In fact, you also can on Shimano, although the Manufacturer says 27 is the maximum.
I've just installed even a 30T cog (Marchisio make) on my Shimano cassette - just cross-chaining the big ring and the biggest cog is a definite no-no according to my LBS guy.



I could swap out my current crank for the 50-34 AND swap out the cassette for the 13-29 and can keep all the other parts of old?Yes, I did that on my first roadie.

[wnyrider]

Today is a new day for me and in logging in I am glad to read the latest information here and it is great... thanks all!
I was on that gear calculator and didn't understand if higher % was better, or if I wanted the lowest.

and finally, if you went all out, 50/34 - 13-29 your ratio would be a mere 2.3 %

if you only switched out the cassette from 12-23 to 12-27 you would go to 2.8% (recommended. easy and cheapest)
I took a look at campagnolo cassettes and they don't have 12-27 for my 10 speed. In the research I can across this:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1491715
That opened up another can of worms! I want to go the with the simplest route and it appears that it may be going with the 13-29 cassette for now.



[QUOTE]yes, you can go to 29 on Campy without needing a long cage der - the chain wrap capacity is sufficient.
Quote:
I could swap out my current crank for the 50-34 AND swap out the cassette for the 13-29 and can keep all the other parts of old?
Yes, I did that on my first roadie.
I took a look at my crank and it is a Truvativ with a Truvativ external bb. If I do brave it, should it be replaced with the same brand-- in order to use the existing derailler and bb?

[aicabsolut]

No, you don't need to stick with Truvativ, but you will need to be sure it is milled for Campy. In other words, don't get a Shimano crank. Also don't get Fulcrum. Even though it's made by Campy, it's milled for Shimano. Get Truvativ, Campy, etc.

Campy rear derailleurs can take larger cogs than Shimano or SRAM, so the 29 would work.

Something that I don't think has been said about the option you were considering is that with a 53-42-30 triple, you might start having trouble figuring out when you want to be in the middle and small ring. The jump from 42-30 is big. The 42 is also going to be harder than your current small ring (39). So, there could be a lot of situations where you'd feel like the 30 is too easy, but the 42 is way too hard.

Just changing your cassette will make a big difference. A 23 is a pretty small easy gear there. Then I also agree that it will be a lot cheaper and easier to go to a compact crank. You might want to do one or the other at first. I'm not sure how badly you're struggling with your current setup. Putting on a 13-29 with a compact will make you lose a lot on the top end (like when you're going downhill), and perhaps you don't need a 34 ring with a 29 cog as your easy gear. There will also be a wider spread in the middle, which can get annoying on the flat. If you go compact, do that with your current cassette first. Then see if maybe you'd want a 12-25, 12-26, 12-27, 12-28, 13-29, etc.

[wnyrider]

...Just changing your cassette will make a big difference. ... You might want to do one or the other at first. I'm not sure how badly you're struggling with your current setup. ...If you go compact, do that with your current cassette first. Then see if maybe you'd want a 12-25, 12-26, 12-27, 12-28, 13-29, etc.

The best example of what I need may be reflected in my ride the day before. I was going up an escarpment. I down shifted to the 39 and 23-- my lowest gearing. I couldn't spin at this point and I felt like I was mashing big time. I was bearing down and the chain actually skipped several times (another issue) and I thought I was going to do some damage. If I could have just had a bit of lower gearing than it would have been more pleasurable. I've priced compact cranks and cassettes, and for the most part the prices are close. The newer compact Tru cranks seem to be mostly 50-36. I have spotted some old new stock 50-34 though. So with that, just to gain some lower gearing, which would I swap out if I had to choose just one, crank or cassette?

[silver]

switching your cassette:

53/39 - 13-29 2.6%

switching your chainrings:

50/34 - 12-23 2.9%

lower ratio is obtained with just switching the cassette

(BTW if you decide to do the chainrings....50/36 - 12-23 3.1% recommending the 50/34 if you can get it)

[wnyrider]

Thanks for you patience doing the math silver. I am glad you find it fun! Well, I am thisclose on making the switch. Saw this posted in a thread on another forum and it does appear interesting. Is anyone here familiar with this crank? It looks to be a 52-24 crank:
http://www.whiteind.com/cranks/roadcranks.html

[SadieKate]

Is anyone recommending that you use a 24-52 combo?????? That is an incredibly wide range to pair. :eek:

The size rings WI lists are just the different size rings they sell which are compatible with that crank.

There are a whole host of things that go into a properly functioning drivetrain. For instance, the front dérailleur must match ring curvature (determined by the ring diameter) and the rear dérailleur must be able to take up chain slack (calculating by chain wrap). Do some research on dérailleur capacity for your brand of component.

[Eden]

hmmmmmm it looks like you could possibly order that crank with a 52 outer and 24 inner, but I would think that would not be such a good idea. With a difference that great in the rings shifting would be a real bear... you'd really be pulling hard to get the chain up from the small ring to the big one and when you shifted down the drop would be so big that you'd probably drop your chain a lot... I'm looking around for the biggest suggested difference between inner and outer rings.

[SadieKate]

The rule of thumb I've been given is 10-12 tooth max difference between rings for the snappiest shifting. This is part of the reason there was a real lapse in the performance of shifting on compact doubles, the 16 tooth jump. Until recently many front derailleurs just weren't designed for this gap, hence the intro of derailleurs designed for compact doubles.

[Eden]

I have doubts that a 28 tooth :eek: difference would shift at all.... on my old bike with a triple it was *hard* to shift from the 30 to the 42 and that's only a 12 tooth difference.

[SadieKate]

I went back and noticed that the drivetrain is Campy. Definitely stick with 10-12 tooth gaps max.

Look at a nice polished Sugino triple with 46-36-26. This should give you a nice set of climbing gears while still maintaining the tight cogs set for flat land riding. You will need a new bottom bracket but you can get some nice quality JIS taper BB's for a reasonable price.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/cranks/11074.html

For upscale cranks, you can look at TA cranks from Peter White and customize the ring choices even more.
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/carmina.asp

Here is info on calculating your derailleur capacity
Chain Capacity and Cage Length
http://branfordbike.com/page.cfm?pageID=62

[SadieKate]

I have doubts that a 28 tooth :eek: difference would shift at all.... on my old bike with a triple it was *hard* to shift from the 30 to the 42 and that's only a 12 tooth difference.Yeah, typically the smallest ring to the middle ring should only be 10 while you can go to a 12T gap between middle and big.

[SadieKate]

Don.t forget you would have to change your shifter also.Why?

Most Campy shifters (not 11 speed) are both double and triple compatible.

And Campy triples shift most excellently.

[aicabsolut]

Here's a Campy 50-34 crankset:
http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Veloce+10+Alloy+Crankset+Compact&vendorCode=CAMP&major=1&minor=13

[wnyrider]

Well, I just purchased a campy 13-29 cassette. I can't tell you how I fretted over choosing which component to swap. There was no definitive answer, and that is what I was bugged about. Thank you all for your input. It was appreciated. The least $ route was to go with a new cassette and the LBS will swap it for me, but I want to be there so I can see how it is done for future reference. It'll be at least a week before I'll be able to test it out... I'll report back on the result.

[added: It has been 2 months and I still haven't chosen clipless pedals yet!!]

[wnyrider]

Here it is October and the company I ordered from has called twice stating the cassette is still on backorder, waiting for delivery from Italy. I checked with several other companies and they don't have that particular getup in stock either. At this point, even if I find the cassette available, I will pass. I am nearly ready to put the bike away for the winter-- no point in making the transition if I can't test it out comfortably in the elements. I suppose it could make for a winter project, but my enthusiasm has waned. I shall ready my cc skis instead!