"Unfair Genetic Advantage" [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

colby

08-22-2009, 06:13 PM

Caught this article in my twitter feed. As is typical with slashdot you may or may not care for the comments ;)

http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/08/22/1840229/How-To-Prove-Someone-Is-Female

So, let me get this straight. Usain Bolt shatters world records and he's awesome, a really stellar athlete, but we're not testing him for "unfair genetic advantages" (though I imagine the doping control is all over him). This woman shatters world records and she must be a man, baby.

What really is an "unfair genetic advantage" vs. a "fair genetic advantage" anyway? You're already talking to the statistically excellent representations of their gender, world record and olympic athletes. I guess this is the statistical outlier to the statistical outlier. ;)

And what are transgendered people (especially MtF) really to do? Not compete at all? Is their inherent genetic "advantage" really an advantage after hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery? Any moreso than a statistically tall/athletic woman born a woman?

I guess they really are difficult questions, and it goes to show how competitive and categorical humans really are.

(Totally OT: Reminds me of the Futurama episode where Bender competes as a fem-bot and has to have his oil changed. Hail, hail, Robonia... the land that I didn't make up!)

Tri Girl

08-22-2009, 06:27 PM

(Totally OT: Reminds me of the Futurama episode where Bender competes as a fem-bot and has to have his oil changed. Hail, hail, Robonia... the land that I didn't make up!)

OK- that's totally what I thought of, too. Glad to know my warped little mind is not alone. :p

Cataboo

08-22-2009, 06:36 PM

So...

The International Association of Athletics Federation ordered Semenya to take the tests after she made remarkable improvements in her performances in recent months.

She makes remarkable improvements and instead of thinking she's doping, they think she's XXY?

witeowl

08-22-2009, 07:18 PM

I read about this a few days ago. I'm glad I don't have to make a decision about this. It's an ugly situation and there is no way to rule on this and come out without being a bad guy.

Let's say that she was born female, raised female, and has a genetic abnormality that gives her the benefits of a male athlete. Does this really mean that she can't compete as a woman? If I were another woman trying to compete against her, I'd probably say that she shouldn't be allowed to compete. If I were her... I'd ask where the hell else I should be allowed to compete (since she's doesn't have all the equipment to be considered a man, as evidenced by fellow athletes who have seen her in the buff).

I have to be honest. Have you seen pictures of her? A genetic abnormality is definitely not out of the question. I don't blame them for thinking XXY rather than doping.

What frustrates me is how public this is. She's handling herself with outstanding and amazing dignity.

radacrider

08-22-2009, 07:31 PM

Gosh, if all this goes through, then will all these orgs start testing everyone (only seems "fair") for some acute, genetic advantage? And what will be on the list of genetic advantages?

While watching universal sports they did a Phelps profile and his whole physic gives him an advantage over others, so is that fair or unfair? What about height advantages?

Geemanies, this could just get crazier and crazier. :eek:

Cataboo

08-22-2009, 07:34 PM

Eden

08-22-2009, 07:46 PM

I had actually already thought that it was standard practice to test athletes for the XXY or other variations just because we went over this debate in high school biology. But I guess it never got implemented. There are some other adrenal conditions that even if you are genetically female disqualify you as competing as a female...

The olympics also disqualifies legless people from running with their artificial legs because they have an unfair advantage...

There was a bit on NPR about this case this morning. There was at one point regular sex testing, but because it became such a difficult question - what truly does constitute being "male" or being "female" they ended up having to discontinue it. Determining sex for someone who is ambiguous can go so far beyond primary sexual characteristics - looking like a male or a female, even beyond chomosomal make up that it became impossible to even define sex, much less test for it.....

It does lead to really difficult questions doesn't it - I don't think anyone can deny that there are definitely differences between men and women physically. Even though our best female cyclists around here can beat a great many of the guys, the best guys will still always beat them.

shootingstar

08-22-2009, 07:51 PM

What frustrates me is how public this is. She's handling herself with outstanding and amazing dignity.

Certainly I would love to read of her story one day...years from now when all of this will be behind her. Regardless of her gender situation, she is a great athlete.

Mr. Bloom

08-22-2009, 08:18 PM

Post mortem autopsy on Secretariat revealed an abnormally large heart.

Lance has an unusual cardio capacity.

In different circumstance, a genetic advantage is called "a blessing".

If she is naturally what she is, then I believe you leave her alone. When competition requires genetic testing to determine eligibility, then there's something wrong.

GLC1968

08-22-2009, 08:42 PM

I think it's awful. The poor woman. I was very much a tomboy growing up. I refused to wear dresses, I played sports, I beat the boys, I was muscular as a child and I was 17 before I'd kissed my first boy. It wasn't that I didn't like boys, they just weren't interested in me. How could they be? How many teenage boys LIKE being beaten by a girl? I can totally see why she hasn't has a boyfriend at 18...it's got to be hard to be built like she is...

And seriously, how can they say that just because she's not 'feminine' that she can't compete? I mean sure...if she were taking drugs to be that way (like the East German women's swim team), then yes, ban her. But a natural advantage? Doesn't every single world class athlete have a genetic advantage? If they didn't, they'd just be like us and not breaking world records, right? The best basketball players are tall, the best swimmers have long arms, the best gymnasts are small and muscular, the best endurance athletes have advanced cardiovascular abilities, and the best cyclists are light if they are climbers and strong if they are sprinters. I mean, if it turns out that even though she's got female genitalia, she's got some other advantage due to a high testosterone level or something, then where does the line EVER get drawn??

Mr. Bloom

08-23-2009, 04:03 AM

Determining sex for someone who is ambiguous can go so far beyond primary sexual characteristics - looking like a male or a female, even beyond chomosomal make up that it became impossible to even define sex, much less test for it.....

It's the same with DNA, now that they have documented cases of human chimera - people with two distinct and separate DNA compositions in various (but unknown) parts of their body.

I think that the blending of science and sport has gone way too far.

PS: I'd love to have her bulging biceps and triceps on me! My goodness, she looks strong!

Thorn

08-23-2009, 04:30 AM

Don't get me started--just because she doesn't conform to society's (and, let's face it, pretty much white society's) standard for female appearance, she's assumed to be a man. Sad. Sad.

Gender has gray zones. Despite what we'd like to believe, gender is a continuum. As one article I read stated...we'd like to believe that nature makes two nice buckets of people: male and female, but, you know, nature is a slob and it isn't the case.

I thought this essay put it nicely...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/sports/22runner.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=caster%20semenya&st=cse

OakLeaf

08-23-2009, 06:10 AM

I agree with nearly all of what's been said. The trouble is, it leads down a road most of us probably don't want to go down. If there isn't a bright line between male and female (which I agree there isn't), should there be separate competitive categories for men and women? And if not, where does that leave the talented women athletes - including Semenya - who simply didn't develop with the same amount of testosterone as those whom we consider "men"?

alpinerabbit

08-23-2009, 08:12 AM

It's unfair for the individual - it's happened before and people had to give up their careers - but it's also unfair to the other women if an elevated testosterone level helped her develop to the level she's competing at.

Apparently the South African athletic association was aware of it (they already did a test this spring) and they even have an Ex-GDR coach who was involved in steroid doping back in the GDR days, and it is presumed that her testosterone levels were artificially reduced before competitions to evade tests.

By the way (this is really mean but what a coincidence) - her name is an anagram of Yes a secret man...

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 08:44 AM

Colby asked: "And what are transgendered people (especially MtF) really to do? Not compete at all? Is their inherent genetic "advantage" really an advantage after hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery? Any moreso than a statistically tall/athletic woman born a woman?"

That question was pretty neatly answered by the experience of Janet Furman Bowman.

Janet Furman Bowman was a pretty serious competitive runner (and kept excellent records) when she was a man, and continued running after she became a woman.

Her experience of the level of effort was the same, though her times dropped enormously. But, within the women's category she was in the same percentile as when she raced in the men's category.

No advantage to having been male for several decades. www.pfc.org.uk/files/A_Six_Minute_Difference.pdf

If Semenya isn't doping or cheating, if her body is naturally as powerful as it is during these races, then I just don't see how disqualifying her for the way God made her can at all be fair.

ETA: I liked some of the comments on slashdot. Two in particular. The idea that athletic competition is divided into "definitely female" and "everyone else." (making the division meaningless anyway) Also the idea that all competitive athletes have advantages over "normal" people, that's why they are competitive athletes; so why kick out a competitive athlete who naturally has an advantage over other competitive athletes? I bookmarked slashdot, lots of fun nerd stuff there!

Mr. Bloom

08-23-2009, 09:07 AM

(and, let's face it, pretty much white society's) standard for female appearance
Sorry for the hijack...but don't make race an issue in this:mad: That's really off topic, and while it may be a part of your life's experience, it would be unfair to generalize it into this situation.

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 09:18 AM

We women have a pretty good idea of the standards our appearance are compared against.

Take a look at the phenomena of "Good Hair" and all the effort put into it. Chris Rock is even making a movie about it, based on his daughter's distress over her hair.

Straight, long, smooth hair is a natural occurance for only a small portion of the female population... but it is a standard held up to be met.

Hair is just one example, and I only use it for illustrative purposes.

I think Thorn has a very good point.

If Semenya's appearance met different standards, would her performance be so profoundly questioned? (is anyone old enough to remember Zola Budd?)

witeowl

08-23-2009, 09:36 AM

Straight, long, smooth hair is a natural occurance for only a small portion of the female population... but it is a standard held up to be met.

Funny, but I remember paying a lot of money to have my hair permed into "spirals" a couple of decades ago.

Fashion and styles change. What is considered beautiful changes.

For a while, pale skin (as in never saw daylight) was considered attractive (because the elite upper class had the luxury of not having to go out and make a living), then people began tanning to be pretty (because the elite upper class had the luxury of spending hours by the poolside).

It used to be that overweight women were the ideal (again, haves vs. have-nots), and then we were down to stick thin. I think right now we're somewhere in the middle (but closer to Twiggy than Rubenesque).

On another forum, I asked whether Olympian Tara Kirk (http://images.google.com/images?q=Tara%20Kirk&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi) should try to cover or hide her strong arms and shoulders. (She was very actively trying to do this very thing on an episode of What Not to Wear.) I thought she should show them off. I was fascinated to see that, even on a board full of bodybuilders, many people were hesitant to agree with me. (Which means, really, they secretly disagreed, right?)

But, more on point, I don't think people were looking at Semenya and saying, "She's unattractive, so she shouldn't be allowed to compete." They were amazed at her incredible improvement, trying to explain how she could shatter women's records, and her physicality appeared to link into a possible explanation. I don't think that they were unreasonable. If she had a different physical appearance, they would likely have looked harder at other explanations, sure, but you put all clues together when trying to figure out a puzzle don't you?

Putting right and wrong aside, there was another article that told that Semenya would often be redirected to the men's restroom by people who didn't know her. This is by people who hadn't seen her outstanding athletic prowess. They see her body and they see her light layer of hair on her face, and they make assumptions. Judge those people if you must, but I don't think they were being hostile. Ignorant, perhaps, but not malicious.

witeowl

08-23-2009, 09:39 AM

I thought this essay put it nicely...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/sports/22runner.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=caster%20semenya&st=cse

That is a great article. Thanks for linking. It does show just how muddy the waters are.

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 09:58 AM

Zola Budd was very cute. She was tearing up records at the same age Semenya is now, and with the same crazy margins. No-one questioned her performance. (they questioned her eligibility based on politics and nationality)

If "What not to Wear" got their hands on Semenya before all this happened, would the results have been different?

ETA: it's already been proved she isn't doping. My question is, why the continued witch hunt? If her natural body makes her as powerful a runner as Budd was at that age, what is motivating this "search"? The motivation seems to be based on her appearance. When strangers directing her to men's restrooms and a school principal who thought she was a boy for years are used as evidence in the media that she shouldn't be allowed to race... hmmm.

Heck, I have been mistaken for male over and over again since I was 14 years old. Just 2 weeks ago while wearing a skirt and camisole top I was mistaken. Again. Completely based on appearance. When I was in track, I broke a race record by 31 seconds. Should that record be taken away because I look/looked too much like a boy? Because I might have more naturally occurring androgens?

colby

08-23-2009, 10:44 AM

Colby asked: "And what are transgendered people (especially MtF) really to do? Not compete at all? Is their inherent genetic "advantage" really an advantage after hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery? Any moreso than a statistically tall/athletic woman born a woman?"

That question was pretty neatly answered by the experience of Janet Furman Bowman.

Janet Furman Bowman was a pretty serious competitive runner (and kept excellent records) when she was a man, and continued running after she became a woman.

Her experience of the level of effort was the same, though her times dropped enormously. But, within the women's category she was in the same percentile as when she raced in the men's category.

I heard about this after I posted. Very interesting, and good for the case to allow transgendered individuals to continue to compete, which I know has come up before in other sports.

There was also a video and some commentary on another blog I read, Sociological Images. The video is from MSNBC.

http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/08/22/the-question-of-caster-semenyas-sex/

He doesn't really add anything to the conversation, except to try to allude that there shouldn't be male/female categories either. So what does that boil it down to, testing for testosterone levels? So you compete in a category with similar levels of "genetic advantage" to your own? That seems extreme. We sure are overcomplicating things for something that's supposed to be fun.

And in those pictures, she sure looks like a woman to me. A lot of the track and field athletes are tall, fit, muscular, and don't have strong feminine features. That body type is kind of what got them there in the first place, isn't it?? :p

colby

08-23-2009, 10:45 AM

OK- that's totally what I thought of, too. Glad to know my warped little mind is not alone. :p

Me too ;)

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 10:52 AM

And in those pictures, she sure looks like a woman to me. A lot of the track and field athletes are tall, fit, muscular, and don't have strong feminine features. That body type is kind of what got them there in the first place, isn't it?? :p

All the pictures I've seen of her, she looks like a woman to me, too. Perhaps people who've never competed in track or who are unfamiliar with the body competitive runners develop could be confused. Especially if they are also not used to seeing women with short hair. (remember the hysteria when Winona Ryder and Natalie Portman had buzz cuts? short hair is non-standard at the moment...)

witeowl

08-23-2009, 10:52 AM

The motivation seems to be based on her appearance. When strangers directing her to men's restrooms and a school principal who thought she was a boy for years are used as evidence in the media that she shouldn't be allowed to race... hmmm.

I don't think her appearance is motivation so much as it's a logical direction to look. Budd didn't have the muscularity, the chin, the facial hair, or, let's face it, the masculine chest. People aren't looking at her genetics because she's "unattractive", they're looking at her genetics because it's a logical place to look.

There is a reason that men and women compete separately in most sports. Men simply have a natural advantage in most sports. It goes beyond testosterone, by the way. They have more blood volume, even at the same weight and height. Did you know that? I just learned that recently when donating blood and realizing that, if I were a man, I could do a double donation at my height/weight, but I'd have to be much taller to give a double donation as a woman. When asked, it really boiled down to blood volume. And we all know how beneficial those little red oxygen carriers are to the athlete, right?

I haven't seen anyone in the media or elsewhere say that she shouldn't compete. I also haven't seen anyone say that she should compete. It's an absolute quagmire.

Did anyone else see that episode of Mental, where a high school girl felt like she was two different people? It turned out that there was an accident during her infancy (I think it was during the circumcision) and the parents (with the help of a selfish psychiatrist) decided to raise their son as a daughter. Coincidentally enough, she was a high school track star. Had this fictitious girl pursued her career, should she have been allowed to compete in the Olympics? I don't know, but it's food for thought. At least, in considering that situation, it's purely hypothetical.

I'm inclined to say that a person should compete based on whatever genitalia he or she had at birth. Others would disagree with me. And even this seemingly clear-cut rule doesn't answer to all possible scenarios.

The only thing I know for sure is that I'm glad to be able to make hypothetical judgments from my computer keyboard rather than having to make any official call in this situation.

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 11:24 AM

I don't think her appearance is motivation so much as it's a logical direction to look. Budd didn't have the muscularity, the chin, the facial hair, or, let's face it, the masculine chest. People aren't looking at her genetics because she's "unattractive", they're looking at her genetics because it's a logical place to look.

Exactly my point. I'm so glad you agree with me.

If she looked cute by current standards, no one would have a "logical direction to look." They'd simply have to accept the fact that this human with female genitalia can kick *** on the track.

Just like Budd.

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 11:32 AM

Did anyone else see that episode of Mental, where a high school girl felt like she was two different people? It turned out that there was an accident during her infancy (I think it was during the circumcision) and the parents (with the help of a selfish psychiatrist) decided to raise their son as a daughter. Coincidentally enough, she was a high school track star. Had this fictitious girl pursued her career, should she have been allowed to compete in the Olympics? I don't know, but it's food for thought. At least, in considering that situation, it's purely hypothetical.

That fictitious girl is based on a real event. It was with identical twin boys, and a cauterization accident during circumcision. The doctors "made" one of the boys into a girl. "She" had problems and identity issues her whole life, which only made sense once she got the truth. She then transitioned to the man she's always felt she was. Time magazine had a large and well documented article about intersexed people a few years ago.

Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer. His story is in Chapter 4 of the book "Intersex" by Catherine Harper. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMfrBWM7_A

witeowl

08-23-2009, 11:44 AM

Exactly my point. I'm so glad you agree with me.

If she looked cute by current standards, no one would have a "logical direction to look." They'd simply have to accept the fact that this human with female genitalia can kick *** on the track.

Just like Budd.

OK, but you think it's a bad thing, while I just think it's a thing.

Her masculine appearance is a marker of what people are suspecting. Without the masculine appearance, it doesn't make sense to investigate that possibility.

If someone breaks into my car, cuts his or her hand on the glass, bleeds all over the interior, and steals my radio, and I run into a person who has a stereo just like my old one and a bandage on his hand, am I wrong to call the police?

(I know it's an imperfect analogy because one involves an intentionally dishonest act and the other does not, but you get my gist.)

witeowl

08-23-2009, 11:47 AM

That fictitious girl is based on a real event.

Interesting. I assumed that there was inspiration in reality (isn't there always?), but I didn't realize just how closely it hit. Still, the possibility of that fictitious future track star, assuming she did not decide to identify as male, leaves a lot to be considered, does it not?

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 11:53 AM

Still, the possibility of that fictitious future track star, assuming she did not decide to identify as male, leaves a lot to be considered, does it not?

That's where the link to info about Janet Furman Bowman I posted earlier comes in.

Mr. Bloom

08-23-2009, 02:54 PM

Without the masculine appearance, it doesn't make sense to investigate that possibility.

+1 Precisely - it's nothing more than that.

KnottedYet

08-23-2009, 04:14 PM

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

Trek420

08-23-2009, 04:52 PM

I dunno dear. I've never experienced being fast at anything :p :rolleyes: ;)

But I recall though I can not find the direct quote but the amazing Flo Jo has written about wanting to be considered a woman and an athlete. Try to forget the flashy outfits, she sometimes wore lace, the flowing hair, the long elaborate nails .... and watch her run.

Pure speed. Looks like nobody is even in the same race. :rolleyes:
Power
Form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q9_N8YzZ6U&feature=related

If she wasn't dressed to the nines would someone be asking: She must have an unfair genetic advantage?

Women athletes and girls should be able to compete based on skill and strength and not how we look.

If I want to get all dolled up fine, if not, also fine.

I question what message this sends to young women and girls "If you're strong and not feminine you aren't a girl" :(

Mr. Bloom

08-23-2009, 05:31 PM

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

Knot: I think everyone agrees the situation is unfair...I think we believe the cause is different... likely because of different life's experiences and perspectives.

channlluv

08-23-2009, 05:45 PM

Wasn't there a similar situation when Martina Navratilova and Chrissy Evert were competing? Martina is decidedly more masculine than Chrissy, and regularly womped on people on the tennis court, but their rivalry was pretty close, wasn't it? Maybe it's not a good analogy.

DH was showing me a video online of Semenya talking. She does have a very deep voice, but so do a lot of women, our niece included. And there are a lot of women who are more masculine than others, my cousin included. They're not all world-class athletes, though, with major endorsement deals in their futures.

How can someone's testosterone levels be artificially lowered for the purposes of testing? That seems like cheating to me, if that's what they did. I wonder if that's proved, if they'd disqualify her for falsifying tests, regardless of what her genetic makeup is.

Roxy

Cataboo

08-23-2009, 05:55 PM

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

It's completely understandable, and I always had really long hair, so being mistaken for a boy never happened, and I only run if big hairy predators are chasing me.

I find it highly unfair that they would announce any of this publicly... If they want to test her sex privately, that would be between them and her...

But to question the sexuality of a 17 year old girl worldwide is beyond ridiculous, and the sort of thing that I hope they have to pay punitive damages for eventually.

When I was typing on here that I remember learning that they did genetic testing on all olympic athletes in high school biology, I remembered the other thing we "learned" That Jamie Lee Curtis was XXY....

I went ahead and googled that before writing it, and apparently while it is a widespread rumor that is taught in many medical schools as fact, there is no actual proof of that statement or anything like that. However, once the rumor got started, it just spread and is blithely accepted as fact...

Trek420

08-23-2009, 05:55 PM

Pro athletes are tested every day, every race in every way shape and form. I don't think tests or the amount they are tested or which tests should be based on appearance. I don't think anyone says "well Lance was looking unusually strong today. Let's have him pee in a cup"

As women we're hard enough on ourselves and each other over the issue of appearance. Where is the thread in which we discuss how to maintain that image of fragile femininity when hammering so hard you puke :rolleyes:

As athletes, and being over 50, overweight, under height and considering myself an athlete is odd, I am one. Anyway I don't think folks who don't work out and also most men can understand the real daily push and pull this is for women. Strength, beauty, strength, beauty, strength ..... short hair, helmet hair, let it grow, helmet hair, make up, keeping it fresh and riding till you toss cookies ....

Male athletes of any level or sport (we love 'em) but you don't go through this. Faster, higher, stronger .... that's about it.

I'm old enough to remember their being just few images of women athletes. I'm glad especially for younger women and girls that if they want to be just strong, just really strong like Semenya they have that image, if they want the image of speed and ultra style like Flo Jo they have that too, just a couple of examples.

witeowl

08-23-2009, 06:00 PM

Knot: I think everyone agrees the situation is unfair...I think we believe the cause is different... likely because of different life's experiences and perspectives.

Well put.

By the way, this is, apparently not unprecedented in track. I just watched a CNN blurb on the story, and this has occurred to a number of female athletes in track and field. One woman from India was actually stripped of her medal, and a Polish sprinter was "only" banned from competing professionally.

OakLeaf

08-23-2009, 07:00 PM

That fictitious girl is based on a real event...
Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer. His story is in Chapter 4 of the book "Intersex" by Catherine Harper. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMfrBWM7_A

drift: the book about Reimer's life (http://www.amazon.com/As-Nature-Made-Him-Raised/dp/0060929596/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251079137&sr=8-2) is fascinating and heartbreaking.

OakLeaf

08-23-2009, 07:03 PM

I question what message this sends to young women and girls "If you're strong and not feminine you aren't a girl" :(

My husband's 17-year-old niece, yesterday, discussing Semenya [spoken as though this fact were proof that she's really a he]:

"She's got ABS!!!" :eek::(:(:(

Trek420

08-23-2009, 07:15 PM

My husband's 17-year-old niece, yesterday, discussing Semenya [spoken as though this fact were proof that she's really a he]:

"She's got ABS!!!" :eek::(:(:(

Name one world class sprinter male or female who doesn't? :confused: ;) And no subcutaneous body fat so you see every muscle fiber twitching. As I watched the video of Flo Jo I reflected she's got muscles I did not know existed. :p That thing at the outside top of the quad? What's that? I don't have that muscle. ;-)

Sprinters as we know from watching bike racing are weight lifters in motion. It's all power to weight ratio.

OakLeaf

08-23-2009, 07:25 PM

Name one world class sprinter male or female who doesn't? :confused: ;)

Pretty much what I said to her, except I said "athlete" instead of "sprinter." Cripes, we all know that swimmers have more body fat than any other athletes, and we've all seen Dara Torres' six-pack.

Trek420

08-23-2009, 07:42 PM

Yes, and her biceps and her quads and her delts and near total lack of bQQbs and have you seen her lats???? ...... but she's a Mom so nobody gives her any guff nor questions her femininity. :rolleyes:

So I ask is a woman athlete at the elite level held to a different standard than men that one obviously has to be strong enough to compete at that level yet look girly somehow. Are there any of us here at any level that we ride (and some here are competitive so I'd love to hear the pro's and semi pro chime in) who have felt this as a conflict.

And if you don't feel it's any conflict how do you juggle strength/power and femininity?

shootingstar

08-23-2009, 08:55 PM

Anyway I don't think folks who don't work out and also most men can understand the real daily push and pull this is for women. Strength, beauty, strength, beauty, strength ..... short hair, helmet hair, let it grow, helmet hair, make up, keeping it fresh and riding till you toss cookies ....

Male athletes of any level or sport (we love 'em) but you don't go through this. Faster, higher, stronger .... that's about it.

I'm old enough to remember their being just few images of women athletes. I'm glad especially for younger women and girls that if they want to be just strong, just really strong like Semenya they have that image, if they want the image of speed and ultra style like Flo Jo they have that too, just a couple of examples.

+1

Hopefully whatever the outcome for this 18 yr. old athletic star, she will have unconditional support from her loved ones who have known her the longest..for years ahead.

Of course, her upper body fit physicality and perceived flat-chest ....I am willing to bet you that quite a number of women with small or near-non-existent developed mature breasts don't wear the crop tight track tanktops precisely because it flattens them out. Those things do great things to me in the change room....I look like a 11 yr. old up top, not 50 yr. Same effect for a one piece swimming suit. :p

I'm hoping all this negative hoorah from competition judges...may be wrong. Maybe we'll see more women just wear it for comfort/speed, etc. instead of being concerned about looking masculine/butch.

Alot of women's faces if they cut their hair very short or have it all pulled back from face...would make them look quite masculine..plus forgetting to pluck/bleach facial hair.

Chanelluv: By the way, with your new avatar pic, you look totally different without the helmet and sunglasses. I had a different image of you altogether.

How wrong we can be! :rolleyes:

Thorn

08-24-2009, 05:52 AM

Sorry for the hijack...but don't make race an issue in this:mad: That's really off topic, and while it may be a part of your life's experience, it would be unfair to generalize it into this situation.

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond. You, as a white male, no matter how empathetic you are, will ever be able to understand large segments of the population. I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/08/black-female-athlete-dominates.html

Back OT....
When a male dominates his sport (and doping has been disproved) we jump up and down and grant a god-like status. On the other hand, when a woman dominates her sport, she doesn't just have to fight accusations of doping, she has to "prove she's a woman". That is just wrong.

Semenya didn't "come out of no where". If you read the short bios that don't focus on her appearance, you discover that she's been running all her life and she's been playing on teams with boys. Recently, she has started with a coach and her performance jumped.

Now, any one of us female cyclists can attest that riding with the boys will make you stronger. And, many of us here, female and male, will attest to the amazing performance gain you can see initially under the tutelage of a good coach. So, should the world be that surprised at a jump in performance? I think not. But, then, I find this whole affair to be disturbing.

shootingstar

08-24-2009, 07:10 AM

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond. You, as a white male, no matter how empathetic you are, will ever be able to understand large segments of the population. I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/08/black-female-athlete-dominates.html

Back OT....
When a male dominates his sport (and doping has been disproved) we jump up and down and grant a god-like status. On the other hand, when a woman dominates her sport, she doesn't just have to fight accusations of doping, she has to "prove she's a woman". That is just wrong.

Semenya didn't "come out of no where". If you read the short bios that don't focus on her appearance, you discover that she's been running all her life and she's been playing on teams with boys. Recently, she has started with a coach and her performance jumped.

Now, any one of us female cyclists can attest that riding with the boys will make you stronger. And, many of us here, female and male, will attest to the amazing performance gain you can see initially under the tutelage of a good coach. So, should the world be that surprised at a jump in performance? I think not. But, then, I find this whole affair to be disturbing.

Important Mr. Silver to understand it is within living memory of non-white women who are older here, that it wasn't until around the late 1970's and onward, where we started to see alot more non-white female models in fashion publications here in North America. It's when marketers woke up and realized the demographics of their audience /potential customer base in North America. I keep on saying North America, because as a teenager I would see the fashion magazines from Hong Kong with their Chinese/Asian models and wonder why on earth people like them were not showing up in English language media.

There is a subtle standard certainly in the fashion world, acting/drama world and in popular women's spectator sports involving womanly grace (ie. figure skating, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, ballet, dance etc.), that beauty/what is considered womanly is: long legs, tall, female-looking face preferably with "refined features of lips not too thick, etc., beautiful skin, breasts, narrow waist, a bum not too big, etc.

Thankfully the beauty /womanly desirable standard now is bit more "elastic" these days, but not a whole lot.

If you don't believe me...then here is a story:
Last year, one of engineers from Philippines she complained to me she was getting too dark from all the sun here at our construction site. She said didn't look nice on her. STILL, having paler/whiter skin is seen as better than something richer in hue.

This woman was university educated and over 35.

witeowl

08-24-2009, 07:41 AM

I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/08/black-female-athlete-dominates.html

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Let's look at who else has had gender questioned (in track): A polish sprinter, Eva Klobukowska and an Indian runner, Santhi Soundarajan. So, those who have a tendency to blame everything on race will surely do so, but they're not correct. (By the way, though they're hard to find on the net, the one photo I saw of Eva on CNN showed a not-very-masculine blonde-haired girl. Probably had/has blue eyes, too.

My (step)sister spent a lot of her early life blaming everything on race. She then found greater happiness when she realized that the only person she was punishing was herself; by blaming everything on race, she was actually holding herself back. She decided, Am I being unfairly judged sometimes because of my race? Surely. But just as often I'm probably not, so why go around with this chip on my shoulder? She launched her life fantastically after that epiphany.

Anyway, I've been reading quite a bit on this case... and this is the first and only article I've found bringing race into it. Why? Probably because it's the only article to ignore that all athletes at the top of their game are questioned in one way or another, regardless of gender or ethnicity. Every single one.

witeowl

08-24-2009, 07:46 AM

If you don't believe me...then here is a story:
Last year, one of engineers from Philippines she complained to me she was getting too dark from all the sun here at our construction site. She said didn't look nice on her. STILL, having paler/whiter skin is seen as better than something richer in hue.

This woman was university educated and over 35.

Maybe she just had a personal preference. Why do we always read so much into these things? My (step)sister would lay out and tan her naturally dark skin. (She said that, without enough sun, her skin would look "pisswater yellow". Her skin always looked lovely to me, but I was just jealous because I have this easily-burned, nearly-never-tanned German skin.)

Biciclista

08-24-2009, 08:11 AM

witeowl

08-24-2009, 08:33 AM

In many cultures, including our own, there is a definite perception that white skin is better. This isn't about personal preferences, did you read the Autobiography of Malcolm X? He was the favored child because his skin was just a shade lighter than the rest of his siblings.

I'd love to have darker skin too, but I'm not blind to the advantages I've had for being caucasian in this crazy world we live.

I understand completely that there is/was, for a very long time, a desire for people of color in the U.S. to look "whiter", preferably so that they could "pass". But, is this universally because of the perceived (and/or real) dominance of white people? I don't know that it always is. In parts of Africa, people separate themselves into classes based on appearance (in subtle ways that my U.S. eye can't see). White people, also, find particular differences preferable which have nothing to do with "looking whiter" (long legs, etc.).

Regarding advantages? No, I don't ignore those. But not everything comes down to appearance. I spent years blaming various flaws in my life to people treating me differently because I was so overweight. I've lost about sixty pounds so far and... guess what... people are treating me the same. We don't always see the world accurately, and often blame our problems on the wrong thing.

My neighbors across the street can easily complain that my anger at their loud music is because I "don't like Mexicans." I'd be surprised if they don't talk about me like I'm a racist gringa. But guess what? I get just as angry when the wife blasts her American pop music as when I do when the husband blasts his Mexican music. I'd simply like to enjoy peace and quiet within my own home, and it doesn't matter whether or not I like their music and I certainly could care less about their skin color or ethnicity. But they likely interpret my anger differently.

Malcolm X attributed his "favorite" status to his skin color? From his father, perhaps, but he claims that his mother was harsher on him because of his skin color. In any case, can we not agree that Malcolm X had a bit of a chip on his shoulder? Not that he was always wrong, mind you, but he certainly was one to see things in the worst light possible.

Nevertheless, I don't think that my sister is/was the only black woman in history who preferred her skin to be darker. I stand by my point that the motivation of the woman in shootingstar's anecdote may have just been an issue of personal preference.

Cataboo

08-24-2009, 09:11 AM

Maybe she just had a personal preference. Why do we always read so much into these things? My (step)sister would lay out and tan her naturally dark skin. (She said that, without enough sun, her skin would look "pisswater yellow". Her skin always looked lovely to me, but I was just jealous because I have this easily-burned, nearly-never-tanned German skin.)

I'm not sure that racism plays much of a factor in the Semenya issue... if a white girl looked that masculine, I think there's be an issue about it as well... however, maybe they would have been more discrete about it - it is way easier to pick on a poor south african girl than a german or american athlete. Having just looked up Eva Klobukowska, it looks like her case was found through mandatory genetic screening at that time in the olympics and it wasn't because of her amazing running ability that made people question whether she was male. But not having ever been black, but having dated someone who was - I'm fully aware that my view of the world and how I'm treated by the world is much much different from the reality of how they are treated by the world.

Okay, complete tangent, but claiming that it's not always about race and ignoring such issues really doesn't make them go away. The fact that america has a black president doesn't mean that we don't have a huge number of racists.

No, if you go all over asia, there's a definite preference for white skin and western eyes. Farm workers & poor people get tans, light skin means you don't have to do menial labor. Go through Vietnam, and you will see all the women riding bikes and motorbikes in big brimmed hats with gloves that stretch up to their shoulders and long pants.

I'm half Vietnamese... The vast majority of my mother's vietnamese friends have had breast implants, their noses done to get a prominent bridge like westerners, their eyes cut to get a western fold, whatever it is done to get their cheekbones more western, and then their hair streaked lighter. They all look like this carbon copy charicature of each other... They also all do anything and everything to keep out of the sun. Holding parasols, whatever.

Look at Asian rockstars/superstars/models/tv stars... most of them are fairly western looking. I took some facebook quiz the other day where you were supposed to guess whether people in photos were korean, chinese, japanese, or vietnamese... They were using photos of singers or tv stars and seriously, I couldn't tell the difference on most of them because their features were so western, either by mixed breeding or plastic surgery. Look at anime cartoons... the characters while asian, are still western looking in features.

When I've traveled in Asia, I get a lot of comments - looking vaguely asian, but having western features... I got stopped innumerable times in China with people saying "Where are you from? You look chinese, but your eyes are so beautiful" It is really really sad that so many asians cannot realize that their eyes are pretty as they are. In vietnam, I heard a lot of "fat beautiful" comments... Yes, there's an actual word for fat = beautiful in Vietnamese, because basically only the rich people could afford to have excess fat.

If you travel through South America or Latin America, you will see the same preference for lighter skin.... the indigenous populations (more native indian) and those with darker skin are looked down upon and discriminated against.

channlluv

08-24-2009, 09:52 AM

Chanelluv: By the way, with your new avatar pic, you look totally different without the helmet and sunglasses. I had a different image of you altogether.

How wrong we can be! :rolleyes:

Um...thanks. I think. <g> Yeah, I have dreams of one day looking more like Knot in her avatar photo.

Roxy

witeowl

08-24-2009, 10:13 AM

I'm not sure that racism plays much of a factor in the Semenya issue... if a white girl looked that masculine, I think there's be an issue about it as well... however, maybe they would have been more discrete about it

I'm 100% with you here.

Okay, complete tangent, but claiming that it's not always about race and ignoring such issues really doesn't make them go away. The fact that america has a black president doesn't mean that we don't have a huge number of racists.

Sure. But pulling the race card all the time also doesn't make them go away. If anything, calling attention to "race" all the time, particularly when there's a dubious connection, does its own amount of damage.

There was a fantastic line on Saturday Night Live when they had "Hillary Clinton" and "Sarah Palin" together in a press conference. At one point "Sarah" talks about how fantastic it would be to have their shared dream of getting a woman into the White House fulfilled. "Clinton" responds, quite on point, that she never cared about becoming a woman president. "I never wanted to be the first woman president. I wanted to be president, and I happen to be a woman," she retorted. That's the attitude I wish we could all take.

Since you brought it up, I think that's the view Obama took. He didn't set out to be a black president. He set out to be president. Period.

Continuing to make such a big deal about "race" (which really needs to be recognized for the myth it is (http://prorev.com/2009/03/vicious-myth-even-academics-media.html)) continues to point out a physical difference that we really need to learn matters about as much as hair color.

Farm workers & poor people get tans, light skin means you don't have to do menial labor. Go through Vietnam, and you will see all the women riding bikes and motorbikes in big brimmed hats with gloves that stretch up to their shoulders and long pants.

True enough. And, as you say, this occurs around the world. But does that mean that it has anything to do with race? Does that mean that they're trying to look "whiter"? No, it means that they're trying to look richer. Little if not nothing at all to do with race.

They also all do anything and everything to keep out of the sun. Holding parasols, whatever.

I always thought that was an intelligent way to avoid the heat. I grew up in San Diego and we always thought it was just smart... and I kind of envied people who didn't care so much about looking "foolish" that they'd rather fry in the sun.

OK, anyway, I've contributed to the derailment of this thread for long enough. I'll find another pot to stir. ;)

Trek420

08-24-2009, 11:13 AM

Um...thanks. I think. <g> Yeah, I have dreams of one day looking more like Knot in her avatar photo.

Roxy

Um, that's not really Knott. :cool: But then she looks better than that :D

Cataboo

08-24-2009, 11:34 AM

Since you brought it up, I think that's the view Obama took. He didn't set out to be a black president. He set out to be president. Period.

Continuing to make such a big deal about "race" (which really needs to be recognized for the myth it is (http://prorev.com/2009/03/vicious-myth-even-academics-media.html)) continues to point out a physical difference that we really need to learn matters about as much as hair color.

I think Obama's position on this is that he doesn't identify himself as a "black" man - America sees him as one, so that is what he is. A black friend who grew up in the Caribbean, south America & Europe puts it the same way - He was never "black" until he moved to the US. Previous to that, he was just himself. I can say the same with my childhood - I never identified as half asian or anything other than just me or human until at some point in elementary school I started getting the chink comments or the chanting "chinese, japanese, nursery rhyme stuff" with the accompanying eyelid pulling. I'm not going to complain about any issues of racism or anything like that, but I do notice it when it's directed against my mother, even when it is subtle.

And the problem with what you're saying - is that the people that keep saying let's not make an issue of race or talk about it are typically white people who never have to deal with it and aren't comfortable discussing it, especially with black people around and in some ways that's a form of racism. And they're typically very ideological nice ones - but the problem is that's not all of the US and parts of the US is racist, and ignoring that by sweeping it all under the rug is not the solution.

I do completely know where you're coming from with the "playing the race card" thing, and I know people that are overly sensitive and scream it all the time about stupid stuff... My sister will get super hypersensitive when her hispanic husband is told that he needs better written english skills by his boss, and how it's discrimination... but the reality is that the guy does need better written english skills, especially for a management position.

True enough. And, as you say, this occurs around the world. But does that mean that it has anything to do with race? Does that mean that they're trying to look "whiter"? No, it means that they're trying to look richer. Little if not nothing at all to do with race.

Nah, in south America it has more to do with looking whiter, because then you have more Spanish ancestors than indian ones... It's actually a pretty huge insult to tell a south american they have indian blood.

As for the Asian example - when shooting star brought it up, you said why is this about race? what if it's just personal preference? And I explained that it wasn't just personal preference. And how a lot of it in asian society was an attempt to look whiter (hence all the plastic surgery examples)... The whiter vietnamese and the richer ones have mixed with the French during colonial times... Darker skinned vietnamese are looked down upon whether or not it is from the sun or their genetic heritage. Now, whether you want to call this racism or not (given that there really aren't any true races anyways), it is discrimination based on skin color.

channlluv

08-24-2009, 11:50 AM

Um, that's not really Knott. :cool: But then she looks better than that :D

Color me disillusioned. Alas.

:)

Roxy

teigyr

08-24-2009, 12:14 PM

I don't think there is any advantage to being female so male athletes get tested for a LOT of things but perhaps not genetic advantage. (Except Manny Ramirez, didn't he have female hormones in his system when he was suspended?!) Runners World (http://footloose.runnersworld.com/) has a fair amount of interviews and documentation as to what could be going on.

I was a runner who also broke records. Unfortunately (or probably fortunately) the records I broke were from mediocre people. I trained with a team that brought up Olympic athletes and in that elite group, I was not so great but when I competed for my school, I was really good.

I didn't realize this when I ran (I was really young) but unethical things do happen. My parents refused to allow it with me and it wasn't so much of an issue because I never would have done great things. I DO remember seeing the metamorphosis of some of the female runners from average girl to muscular (and sometimes hairy) athlete. Those parents that allowed it to happen had a child that might become famous and the coach got lots of fame for that athlete's skill. It benefited everyone but the runner though I don't think any of them understood what it was at the time.

I don't approve of the way Caster's testing is being done in the limelight. I don't think SHE is a bad person or is trying to work the system, if in fact there is something amiss. Adults have been known to do anything they can to produce a great runner. If anything, this proves that the IAAF needs to have clear standards on what is allowed or not allowed and if that is deemed to be unfair, then it needs to be challenged. It will be interesting to see how the tests come out.

witeowl

08-24-2009, 12:30 PM

And the problem with what you're saying - is that the people that keep saying let's not make an issue of race or talk about it are typically white people who never have to deal with it and aren't comfortable discussing it, especially with black people around and in some ways that's a form of racism. And they're typically very ideological nice ones - but the problem is that's not all of the US and parts of the US is racist, and ignoring that by sweeping it all under the rug is not the solution.

As long as we keep making it all about race... it will be all about race. I'm not saying we should sweep it under the rug so much as I'm saying that we should point out the ludicrousness of it when it does happen.

The first time race was ever an issue for me was when a group of girls on the playground came up and asked, "How does it feel to have your mom dating a black man?" I was befuddled. "I don't know. How does it feel to have your mom married to a white man?"

That question made as much sense to me as would, "How does it feel to have your mom dating a redhead?" I don't blame my schoolmates, mind you. I blame their parents who were clearly discussing the "scandal".

Look, I'm plenty fine discussing it. I've faced prejudice: as a child in an interracial family, as an ESL learner, as a woman, as a lower middle class person, as a manager younger than my employees, as a significantly overweight person, as a white teacher in a school with a large population of Latino students.

(In fact, I love it when, as has happened a couple of times, I'm told, "You're just picking on me 'cause I'm brown." I respond, "Half my family is browner than you, so try again. Now get back to work." It's never failed.)

But I'm more than happy to say that we need to start shutting up about it when it isn't really an issue. When it is an issue? Sure, stomp on it and call it out for its idiocy. But when it's questionable and likely more imaginary than real? Why beat a dead horse that isn't even there?

witeowl

08-24-2009, 12:32 PM

Having just looked up Eva Klobukowska, it looks like her case was found through mandatory genetic screening at that time in the olympics and it wasn't because of her amazing running ability that made people question whether she was male.

So it hit me: Why don't they just implement this? Sure, we can't go back and change what's happened to Semenya, but it looks like it needs to be done now. If we're going to put some biological requirement on gender (other than equipment), then people need to get tested before they ever step foot on a truly competitive track.

papaver

08-24-2009, 01:42 PM

Cataboo

08-24-2009, 01:51 PM

So it hit me: Why don't they just implement this? Sure, we can't go back and change what's happened to Semenya, but it looks like it needs to be done now. If we're going to put some biological requirement on gender (other than equipment), then people need to get tested before they ever step foot on a truly competitive track.

It was implemented from 1968-1999 and it just raised more questions than answers. Where exactly do you draw the line?

witeowl

08-24-2009, 02:38 PM

Where exactly do you draw the line?

I don't know, but I do know that a line must be drawn before we hold people accountable to one.

shootingstar

08-24-2009, 04:26 PM

The only thing I know about her is that her trainer is Ekkart Arbeit. He is a former east-german coach who gave his athletes so much anabolic stereoids that at least one female athlete is now a man. Just google Heidi Krieger.

Hmm.. now it should be interesting for test results. Thx for info. papaver. Hope he learned from his flawed "coaching"..to put it quite mildly.

Whiteowl: As for my comments, it wasn't about race at all for the gender testing she is undertaking which the public is interested in now, ...but the hard reality how many ordinary folk are judging her ..appearance. People's opinions on what is "minimally" a female-looking woman is coloured :p by cultural, as well as pervasive mass media projections of what we think a woman should look like physiologically in terms of her face and body.

Catriona has given some great examples on ...aiiiiiyaaah, :p on nose plastic surgery (sounds like Michael Jackson as the male extreme), breast implants, etc. A few months ago, I walked into a retail store close to home that is a Japanese-based home and personal care products. Saw a display of skin whitening cream ..explained in both English and Japanese. Groan. :p:D

Mr. Bloom

08-24-2009, 05:28 PM

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond.

Glad you didn't ignore me (wouldn't have accomplished much...) AND I'm glad you did respond (I welcome discussion/debate about contrary views).

I'm not blind to the advantages I've had for being caucasian in this crazy world we live.
Mimi, that's interesting since I recall you're Italian...and I am too. Frankly, it's been my experience that Italians tend to be viewed as "2nd Class" among "Caucasian" people...add to that the fact that I'm "vertically challenged" and not athletic makes me an additional potential object of scorn among my own gender. I don't feel that I have had any advantage except that I was by God's grace adopted by loving parents at the age of 4 days, was well educated, graduated in the top 10% of my class AND practiced HARD to interview well.

At the core, even the most challenged have found the road to success...

Cataboo

08-24-2009, 06:44 PM

Italians are second class?

I thought everyone claims to be italian and irish. The latter around saint patty's day, of course.

Mr. Bloom

08-24-2009, 06:57 PM

Italians are second class?

Absolutely not:cool: Just to the uninformed...

Tuckervill

08-24-2009, 06:59 PM

Glad you didn't ignore me (wouldn't have accomplished much...) AND I'm glad you did respond (I welcome discussion/debate about contrary views).

Mimi, that's interesting since I recall you're Italian...and I am too. Frankly, it's been my experience that Italians tend to be viewed as "2nd Class" among "Caucasian" people...add to that the fact that I'm "vertically challenged" and not athletic makes me an additional potential object of scorn among my own gender. I don't feel that I have had any advantage except that I was by God's grace adopted by loving parents at the age of 4 days, was well educated, graduated in the top 10% of my class AND practiced HARD to interview well.

At the core, even the most challenged have found the road to success...

A couple of links for you, Mr. Silver. white privilege (http://academic.udayton.edu/williamrichards/Ethics%20essays/McIntosh,%20White%20Privilege.htm) Owning unearned white privilege (http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2006b/052606/052606a.php)

Karen

OakLeaf

08-24-2009, 07:02 PM

And another one.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/blckcost%20connect.htm

Biciclista

08-24-2009, 08:19 PM

Italians were not considered white at one time, this is true. But they are now.
The fact that people were crowing about Scalia being the first Italian supreme court justice is proof that someone is still paying attention. And being married to a W.A.S.P. makes my Italian-ness not obvious anyway.
I'm talking about the way I have been treated compared to people who are Black or Asian. I've always been pretty sensitive to these things.
this is from Life Magazine 1911

Mr. Bloom

08-25-2009, 03:03 AM

I'm talking about the way I have been treated compared to people who are Black or Asian. I've always been pretty sensitive to these things.

Understood ;)

However, I believe we're much closer to a world of people succeeding on merit than we were 30 years ago. I believe that, because I see it everyday and believe it's time to push forward and not back...

But, I'll let it rest. Sorry for the hijack.

papaver

08-25-2009, 04:24 AM

Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/25/gender-row-athlete-has-male-hormone-115875-21622252/

Tuckervill

08-25-2009, 06:25 AM

Understood ;)

However, I believe we're much closer to a world of people succeeding on merit than we were 30 years ago. I believe that, because I see it everyday and believe it's time to push forward and not back...

But, I'll let it rest. Sorry for the hijack.

But did you read the links?

Do yourself a favor and read the links.

You can't push forward until you acknowledge the past.

Karen

Biciclista

08-25-2009, 07:05 AM

But did you read the links?

Do yourself a favor and read the links.

You can't push forward until you acknowledge the past.

Karen
Thanks for those links, Karen!

lph

08-25-2009, 07:12 AM

witeowl

08-25-2009, 07:21 AM

Do yourself a favor and read the links.

You can't push forward until you acknowledge the past.

I skimmed them, and they're the same stuff I've known and was "learned" (how do you learn something you already know?) in certain classes at the university.

I used to use an analogy to people claiming that everyone has the same opportunity to succeed, pointing to people who successfully pulled themselves out of ghettos, both figurative and literal. The analogy involved two runners (seriously), one with a flat course to run and one with obstacles (puddles to slosh through, hills to climb, stuff to crawl under). In this race, can the one running the obstacle course win? Sure, some particularly talented people would end up successful no matter what. But, overall, it's clear that the runners on the smooth course have a distinct advantage. You can't point at the few obstacle course winners and say, "See? Equal opportunity!"

Nevertheless, that said, I'll respond to your closing remark with:

You can't move forward while you're only looking behind you.

witeowl

08-25-2009, 07:24 AM

Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/25/gender-row-athlete-has-male-hormone-115875-21622252/

So all our wailing and gnashing of teeth about discrimination based on appearance may have been based on naught...

Tests carried out before the start of the World Athletics Championships proved the 800m gold medallist had very high levels of the male hormone, according to sources close to the investigation.

It is believed this information led to the IAAF's decision to ask the South African athletics body to carry out a detailed "gender verification" test on the athlete.

Well, it was an interesting intellectual exercise nonetheless. ;)

smilingcat

08-25-2009, 10:33 AM

I really feel for Semenya. I think I would be crushed if media started in on me to say hey that's a man there!! A wolf in sheep's clothing to get on a podium.

My understanding is that IOC has dropped karyotyping because lot of women came up as XXY? or XY female???

So if you look like a dude, have dude parts, and XY obviously you can't compete in women's category.

But if you are XY female or XXY or mosaic, are they allowed??

The other thing too is that what was her name Merriam Bagger? the semi- or professional golfer who had the sex change operation to become a woman. I thought LPGA as allowing her to compete. so XY with sex change can compete.

I looked up on "intersex" on the internet and came to a non-profit organization on intersex. Reading some of the explanations just made me more confused. I thought your body chromosome were uniform but this isn't so in person who is mosaic. they could have XX for part of their body and XY in another. and they were talking about androgen insensitivity where no amount of testosterone will make you masculine and so XY could end up looking like a girl. Pretty strange stuff...

so where do we draw the line??

some girls are born without uterus... so specifying need for it will exclude them.
has to be XX chromosome will exclude some women.
has to have female genitals... will a guy could have a sex change surgery...
and how much testosterone is too much??

I am too illiterate in this area to speak on this matter. And let the officials and medical experts decide. And I sure wish the stupid media stops hyping the story and let the poor girl alone.

GLC1968

08-25-2009, 10:35 AM

Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/25/gender-row-athlete-has-male-hormone-115875-21622252/

At the bottom of that article, it says that a man's testosterone is 40 to 60 times that of a woman. Should only 3 times as much really be enough to disqualify someone?

Thorn

08-25-2009, 11:19 AM

In 1996, 8 female athletes tested XXY. All were allowed to continue competing. The cases were not made public. Semenya's was leaked to the press.

Reuter's summary
http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSTRE57O20P20090825?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=11611

Interesting historical document
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/OlympicGenderTesting.html

Oh, and Mr. Silver, take Karen (Tuckerville)'s advice. Read the articles. She took the time to find them for you, take the time to read them. You may find them enlightening.

KnottedYet

08-25-2009, 11:24 AM

Normal Average testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.6-0.7 nmol/L

Normal Range of testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.2-2.9 nmol/L

Eden

08-25-2009, 11:47 AM

That new article is horribly written -even to the headline....

Well yeah she has "male" hormones - we (women) all do.....
and there's lots of natural variation between human beings. What they appear to be intimating in the article is that the testosterone in her system may be synthetic, but it really doesn't look like they have any evidence of that, so they can't come out and make the claim. She's just associated with a coach who's been caught doping his athletes in the past....

You all want something interesting to listen to? This American Life did a show based all around testosterone once, including the staff being tested for their own levels - and yes some of the women had higher levels than some of the men...http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1230 This is much more about feelings around masculinity and femininity than hard core science.

Mr. Bloom

08-25-2009, 05:42 PM

A couple of links for you, Mr. Silver. white privilege (http://academic.udayton.edu/williamrichards/Ethics%20essays/McIntosh,%20White%20Privilege.htm) Owning unearned white privilege (http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2006b/052606/052606a.php)

Karen

Since you asked, yes. But, I disagree with the basic premise, because:
- I cannot change how others feel...I am responsible for me
- I cannot change the past, I can only observe and be a catalyst of change in the present

I believe that NOTHING is accomplished by focusing on the past...we have to acknowledge it, but we have to constantly do gut checks in the present to assure that we are fair in the HERE and NOW.

Back to the topic of this thread - I believe it is unfair and unjust to isolate natural hormone levels as an unfair advantage WHEN we would not isolate other genetic or physical attributes as being unfair. I went to high school with a guy who was 7'1"...he was not athletic, but he started playing basketball in his Junior year and HIS HEIGHT got him a full ride scholarship to college. Was that unfair...NO WAY. If she had a sex change or resorted to other unnatural methods, I'd say kick her out...but don't penalize herself for being blessed.

ETA: I originally objected to the raising of race because there is no evidence to support that bias and as others subsequently pointed out, there is precedent for other races/nationalities being challenged with this same thing. When we look for prejudice where none exists, then we are spending too much time looking back and that will prevent us from moving forward.

Cataboo

08-25-2009, 05:49 PM

I'm wondering how scientific the actual ranges used for normal testosterone levels in men & women actually are? How big of a sample size?

It somewhat reminds me of how flawed the science of testing for doping actually is. There was an analysis article in Nature about a year back on how unscientific the tests were that got flloyd landis in trouble.

salsabike

08-25-2009, 05:53 PM

salsabike

08-25-2009, 06:24 PM

Here's a take from a primary care sports medicine doc: http://listedasprobable.typepad.com/blog/2009/08/18-yr-old-south-african-runner-caster-semenya-a-favorite-in-the-womens-800m-and-1600m-events-at-the-world-track-and-field-ch.html

Tuckervill

08-25-2009, 07:37 PM

Since you asked, yes. But, I disagree with the basic premise, because:
- I cannot change how others feel...I am responsible for me
- I cannot change the past, I can only observe and be a catalyst of change in the present

I believe that NOTHING is accomplished by focusing on the past...we have to acknowledge it, but we have to constantly do gut checks in the present to assure that we are fair in the HERE and NOW.

But you walk forward every day as one who has a privilege endowed upon him by being white and male, through no action of your own. That is here and now. I'm not talking about the past. Acknowledge that you have that privilege or you can't move forward.

If you don't acknowledge that--the articles were posted to foster understanding of the issue--your gut is lying to you.

Karen

Mr. Bloom

08-25-2009, 08:06 PM

But you walk forward every day as one who has a privilege endowed upon him by being white and male, through no action of your own. That is here and now. I'm not talking about the past. Acknowledge that you have that privilege or you can't move forward.

If you don't acknowledge that--the articles were posted to foster understanding of the issue--your gut is lying to you.

Karen

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years;)

I understand the position you assert...I simply disagree:)

BleeckerSt_Girl

08-25-2009, 08:15 PM

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years;)

uh oh.

Cataboo

08-25-2009, 08:17 PM

uh oh.

My heart bleeds for him and his disadvantages... Oh no, he was forced to make more money than his female counterparts in the exact same job!

salsabike

08-25-2009, 08:22 PM

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years;)

Wow, this morphed into a comedy thread!

MartianDestiny

08-25-2009, 08:49 PM

Come on Ladies...

Don't ya think it's just a bit hypocritical to beat on Silver for mentioning that the "race card" might not need to be pulled in this instance and then beat on him for pulling one?

Yes, reverse discrimination happens (disguised as "affirmative action" or not), and yes, middle to upper class white males are the primary targets.

To ridicule him for claiming it exists at all in areas is ridiculous; especially after pages of jumping on him about the continued existence of racism after he mentioned that an at best borderline racist comment was perhaps out of line.

But I guess because the comment was about "white society" it can't possibly be racist and that because he's "white" no one could have possibly judged him negatively (or judged someone higher, which is the same thing)... :rolleyes:

Biciclista

08-25-2009, 08:50 PM

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years;)

Uh, oh really?
blink blink?
comedy, just what I needed.

Cataboo

08-25-2009, 08:54 PM

Tuckervill

08-25-2009, 09:33 PM

Karen, if anything, being a white male is a disadvantage these days...and has been for years;)

I understand the position you assert...I simply disagree:)

Alrighty then. Take the male part out, and that puts me and you in the same class. You're really going to look me in the eye and say we don't have an advantage because we are white?

Please, just shut up about it, then.

Karen

smilingcat

08-25-2009, 10:03 PM

ummm getting back to Semenya and some issues.

A co-worker who was a very good mid-distance runner in his youth said the following:

For a teenager to run a sub 2 minute 800m is really really good.

for some one to improve over 5 seconds in a span of a year is doable if you didn't have a proper coaching until a year ago. Once you get on a "real" training program where everything is minutely controlled, its not unconceivable to show that kind of improvement in a year. Something Semenya did. It also sounds like she didn't have proper training prior to last year when she burst onto the scene

Didn't watch the race but if she didn't completely blow apart the field, then it doesn't sound like a foul play. If she was ahead of the pack by two seconds but the pack was spread more than two seconds, then there really is no problem. Whereas if she was two seconds ahead and the pack was tight meaning not separated by more than a second or so then it may point to some sort of problem.

If she didn't break the world record at 18, it doesn't look like any foul play.

The last part bugs me... So if you are questionable its okay as long as you didn't break the record?? How can you justify such comment?

Anyway, it sounds like she is just one of those anomalies good or bad and she is going to be shattering world records in years to come. I wish her well. To her competitors, stop being a sour puss. Life is never fair.

Life is full of in-equity so get over it

Trek420

08-25-2009, 10:35 PM

Since you asked, yes. But, I disagree with the basic premise, because:
........

I cannot change the past, I can only observe and be a catalyst of change in the present

I believe that NOTHING is accomplished by focusing on the past...we have to acknowledge it, but we have to constantly do gut checks in the present to assure that we are fair in the HERE and NOW.

I feel to know where you are going you must know where you've been. :o

I love the past, reading about it, studying it. In history I learn about righteous men and women with access to every advantage (yes, rich white dudes ;) :cool:) and at times when it was not easy, back in the day when one did not blog your way to rights but risked their lives. .... they did the right thing because it's as damaging to ones soul to be an oppressor as it is to be oppressed. At least that's what I was told growing up and that one should be able to live a life in which you are neither.

I love history, studying it, learning it because I learn about those who overcame tremendous obstacles that stopped others yet they were able to overcome.

They remind me when I face a wall I can't go around, under, over, break through that "Look what s/he did!!! You can achieve your goal"

It does not mean those who did not rise above discrimination are any less than those who do, or "Anyone can do _______, s/he did!" who knows what inner strength lets some rise above what another person can't break through. But I love learning about them.

That's just me. :rolleyes:

But back somehow to cycling. Where I roll, supposedly the most liberal of urban areas, the most diverse. For example we have more Chinese than just about anywhere other than uhm ... well... China and every other group too and yet I have friends who say they don't do group rides because they don't feel welcome and say they have been snubbed, they don't go to bike shops because they don't get treated well (that's not at MY favorite shop!!).

I look around me at events and in shops and well it's an upper middle class white sport. I think as a sport we need to own that, open up, and create a cycling culture that is diverse.

But that's just me.

Eden

08-25-2009, 10:57 PM

But back somehow to cycling. Where I roll in supposedly the most liberal of urban areas, the most diverse, we have more Chinese than anywhere other than uhm ... well... China and every other group and yet I have friends who say they don't do group rides because they don't feel welcome and say they have been snubbed, they don't go to bike shops because they don't get treated well (that's not at MY favorite shop!!).

Cyclists are pretty famous for snubbing (or at least appearing to snub).... *but* its highly unlikely to be about your race - oh no, its more likely to be over something *much more important* - like how up to date your equipment is, or whether or not you've removed your dork disk :rolleyes:

Mr. Bloom

08-26-2009, 03:26 AM

Last year I had the opportunity to meet Chris Gardner ("The Pursuit of Happyness") and hear him speak to a group.

He told an interesting and entertaining story about a Texas Oilman client that he had, but had never met face to face. The man was clearly a "product of rural Texas" on topics of race.

One day, the Texas Oilman was in San Francisco and wanted to meet Chris...and Chris describes with great humor what happened as the "blood flowed from his 'lilly white' face" as they shook hands.

They sat down and went over his portfolio returns and Chris then said "Look, I've done well for you...it's not about Black, it's not about White, it's about Green". The Texas Oilman then picked up the phone and moved the other 2/3 of his investments to Chris' management...and they became friends after that.

Now, if Chris had taken the approach of "let's talk about how you have persecuted black people in the past", would a fight have emerged? Maybe, at best it would have been an uncomfortable moment with very little upside. Would the new business/personal relationship have flourished? Unlikely

Change occurred by locking arms and moving forward from that moment based on what they had in common...not their differences.

Nope. But then, I could just be racist against white people.

You killed my forefathers and raped my foremothers.

Edited to say: I'm sorry if you believe that "I" did that...but I'll not address that comment further.

shootingstar

08-26-2009, 06:55 AM

A better way of seeing how some people or a group of people hold power that they don't even realize/forget unless the person places himself/herself in a totally different social situation:

All of us hold the power of the English language. We can participate in this forum, explain ourselves and try to explain about others...especially when some of us have real working/daily 2nd (or 3rd) language.

English is the de facto global language of power in: business internationally, to change law and policy of English language countries you have speak to law and policy changers..in English, noteriety for professional growth in publishing and presentation academically..English rules. English, English.. Not Chinese,.....even though they have a huge population. How many people are reading Chinese in North America and Europe. Come on...

And the Internet appears to be dominated with the huge range of information on many subjects of study..in English.

That is ALOT of power we carry and use daily. An invisible mantle of power..until we get into a foreign language country.
.....................

Is this related to cycling passion? Sure can be. Our message and enthusiasm is only reaching part of the world.

Trek420

08-26-2009, 07:38 AM

Edited to say: I'm sorry if you believe that "I" did that...but I'll not address that comment further.

Agreed. On the issue of :your people murdered my people" :( This again is why I looooooove history. We learn so that we can be a witness so maybe, just maybe these things never happen again.

I remember being singled out on the schoolyard and called a "dirty Jew! You killed Christ :mad:" I was 9. This happened way before my time. :rolleyes: I was also confused because I knew the dude was Jewish himself so why the anger at me? :rolleyes:

Anyway at a certain point we should move on; these things happened in the past, now here we are. What do we do from here? And "where oh where are the cyclists of color? Why so few?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5529555

Cataboo

08-26-2009, 07:46 AM

Edited to say: I'm sorry if you believe that "I" did that...but I'll not address that comment further.

I have a feeling that whatever you edited out was far more amusing.

But if you believe that I believe that you literally killed my forefather and foremothers and that I'm racist against white people... I, of course, have been tracking you through the rifts that your activities are causing through the space time continuum, it took me a while to develop the time machine technology so that I could investigate the murder of all my foremothers, forefathers, and foresiblings... then it took a while to establish a fake online persona on team estrogen so that I could spy on you, but now that I have blown my cover, I have no choice but to challenge you to a duel. On unicycles.

smilingcat

08-26-2009, 07:50 AM

Cyclists are pretty famous for snubbing (or at least appearing to snub).... *but* its highly unlikely to be about your race - oh no, its more likely to be over something *much more important* - like how up to date your equipment is, or whether or not you've removed your dork disk :rolleyes:

tis so true. Things for which you WILL get an evil eye.

pie plate is definitly ranks near the top. If you have to ask what that is OH MY :rolleyes::rolleyes: you're so helpless... It's the spoke protector metal disk that goes on between the rear wheel spokes and the casette.

the other offense are having front reflectors, reflectors on the spoke for side visibility. pedal without the cage or not using a clip-less pedal.

And if the person is a real snob then having a Big 'ol saddle bag. unless you're touring with panniers on front fork and on the rear.

It was nearly thirty years ago, a guy friend was miffed when a girl went up to Mr. Macho and told him that he could get another 1/10 MPH faster if he got rid of his rear reflector off his seat post. He was doing a TT on a road bike. He also was guilty of several other offenses as well but when you are at the bottom of crash 4s, that's excusable I guess.

I need to get back into shape and take my '80s road bike out with all that rust and see if I can drop some boys. It has friction shift on the down tube and shimano 600 groupo. :D:D
ofcourse I would need to be wearing wool, nothing modern mind you like lycra. Ohh with white socks and tennies. "yeah what's it to ya? My bike is older than you!! "

SadieKate

09-11-2009, 09:10 AM

Anyone else feel like an episode of House is playing out in reality? What a mess for everyone involved.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/11/caster-semenya-outrage-wo_n_283441.html

radacrider

09-11-2009, 09:26 AM

BalaRoja

09-11-2009, 09:51 AM

It appears very likely that Semenya is probably intersexed in some way and/or has AIS. The question for the track and field organizers will be if said conditions present an advantage. If you have AIS, you generally don't benefit from T because your condition, Androgen (testosterone) Insensitivity Syndrome, makes you unresponsive to T. With Semenya's t-levels being around 7.5 as I remember, this is 3x higher than the 'normal' female range so her responsiveness to T is probably 'the' issue. From my recollection, the rulings on these matters have been mixed in the past.

For those that might be confused by the notion of intersexed, just bear in mind that it is hardly as uncommon as some might like to imagine. In fact, given the frequency of intersex conditions, 1 in roughly 3000, you are far more likely to BE intersexed than to be an olympic athletes.

Regarding the question of MTF transwomen in sport.

Basically a fully transitioned MTF will almost always have a significant a disadvantage in endurance/aerobic competition against natal women in most sports, including cycling, running, etc.

Why? Because her body no longer produces testosterone. In fact her T-levels will be lower than natal women's t-level's. That's due to the small amounts of T that are produced in a natal woman's ovaries. Very low testosterone also greatly lowers hemoglobin levels. Hemoglobin is an oxygen transporting metalloprotein. Less oxygen to muscles = reduced aerobic performance.

In addition, muscle tone decreases significantly and body fat increases. Meanwhile she still has a heavier male skeleton to support, so power to weight ratio predictably drops also.

T levels are, as stated by the IAAF the very CRUX of the matter in deciding whether an athlete can compete. Normal/common levels for men and women aren't even close - with the top 'normal' level for women being almost 400% LOWER than the bottom 'normal' level for men.

In agreement with all the above is the Olympic organizing committee's established decision to allow MTF athletes to compete in their chosen gender at the highest level.

I can comment on the trans angle with, shall we say many years of 'personal' experience. :)

katluvr

09-11-2009, 10:17 AM

BalaRoja,
Thanks for that information. Nicely explained.

I have strayed from the other posts....since it was getting a bit much for me.

From my nursing experience the intersex issue is a very big complicated one! Much less when you mix in all this.

K

spazzdog

09-11-2009, 05:18 PM

If it hasn't been mentioned before, a wonderful novel titled "Middlesex" is out there in bookworld. The author describes a few (of the several) types of intersex states.

But to the actual subject, young Semenya... what a horrible way to find out. An unconscionable person in a medical capacity leaks to a newspaper. I could care less about the competition at this point. I hope there is some psych support for this young woman (thats whats on her birth certificate).

spazz

smilingcat

09-11-2009, 09:39 PM

I heard she has no womb nor ovaries but a testicle of sorts in her body... Okay.

And if you were AIS then no amount of testosterone will make you male. But she does seem to have some male like attributes. sooo I'm bit confused here. Just from the physiology perspective and nothing to do with athletics. And if being AIS makes your body to reject or not recognize the testosterone so you develop as a woman? but wouldn't you need estrogen to make you a girl?? Why is it that lack of testosterone (or not recognizing the male hormone) make you a girl instead of well.... I dunno. I'm really ignorant sometimes. I mean no offense. Seriously confused.

Reporting in the media, the testing labs. THEY MAKE ME ANGRY!! If I were like Ms. Semenya and it happend to me, I think I would be angry, hurt, ... What a $hit thing to happen. Sorry I rarely swear but this really takes the cake.

I hope she can continue to compete as a woman and for her to keep her medal. ***'em.

Okay I need to go and calm myself down. Seriously!!

BalaRoja

09-11-2009, 10:20 PM

........ But she does seem to have some male like attributes. sooo I'm bit confused here. Just from the physiology perspective and nothing to do with athletics. And if being AIS makes your body to reject or not recognize the testosterone so you develop as a woman? but wouldn't you need estrogen to make you a girl?? Why is it that lack of testosterone (or not recognizing the male hormone) make you a girl instead of well.... I dunno. I'm really ignorant sometimes. I mean no offense. Seriously confused.

Hi smilingcat - don't think you are being offensive at all. You are asking valid and reasonable questions.

Why does she develop as a woman without estrogen you ask?

This female physical development is not due to the presence and influence of estrogens (which are absent in AIS people) but actually due to the the ineffectiveness of androgens . In other words, the inherent trend is for any fetus to develop female external genitals and general body form, UNLESS male hormones are present.

Think of it this way - and this is an oversimplification but perhaps a useful idea:

we all start out as female at conception, sort of, but then some become male shortly thereafter if certain conditions are present.

Mr. Bloom

09-11-2009, 11:39 PM

I continue to agree with quotes in SadieKate's posted article...if she is naturally what she is, then she should be allowed to compete. Anything more than that is an "overengineered and intellectualized conclusion" by people who are paid to feel important by debating the number of angels who can fit on the head of a pin.

To me, an "unfair advantage" is one that doesn't naturally occur.

papaver

09-11-2009, 11:52 PM

whatever the outcome, when you see her, there's such a 'tristesse' about her. I just hope she doesn't become a freak show for the amusement of others.

lph

09-12-2009, 01:34 AM

To me this is two issues, not one:

1. the issue of gender in sports - what are the guidelines, what's "fair", does fair even exist? A technical and scientific question, maybe possible to solve.

2. media hassle, "humane" treatment of athletes, what should they put up with, what's unacceptable? A moral question. To my mind her age shouldn't be relevant, because "kids" shouldn't be in the cut-throat world that elite sports has become.

typing fast, in a hurry..

crazycanuck

09-12-2009, 05:49 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/i-was-treated-like-a-circus-sideshow-1786139.html

KnottedYet

09-12-2009, 06:26 AM

what's really sad is that if she looked differently, physically, all these news folks would be doing profiles on how her physical traits were an awesome thing that enabled her to breeze through the wind, etc., etc., much like they do for Phelps and how his physical attributes are ideally suited to going fast in the water.

But, no....:(

If she looked like this on the track: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/53404,news,iaaf-tests-show-that-800m-world-champion-caster-semenya-is-a-hermaphrodite

Trek420

09-12-2009, 08:09 AM

So if she wore makeup, maybe sprinted in a skort ;) this whole thing would not happen?

Grog

09-12-2009, 08:45 AM

Other than being mad at everybody for leaking the information and all the circus, I am also mad at her national federation and whoever is coaching her. (I know nothing of her background so apologies if my ignorance makes me say stupid things.)

I watched one of the finals she won. It's not like she won by a little bit. She's FAR ahead of the bunch. This is not the Olympics, where there are athletes from every country no matter how good they are. This is the World Championships, where all the best of the best, the fastest of the fastest, are.

Now, if I was a coach with the athlete's best interest in mind, and I knew my athlete was running those kinds of really, really unusual times, I would perhaps have thought about smart ways to address though issues before even sending her to compete at this level. I wouldn't think of her as sort of a "secret weapon" that's just going to go there and win races, wowing the world with amazing times.

I guess I have a bit of a tendency to see things in a medical way sometimes, but I see "running that incredibly fast" as a symptom. I'm not talking about the social aspects of it, just about the health issues associated with many alternative chromosomal arrangements. Considering the underlying medical issues and risks to the person's life (in the long term, not because of the running), I would have considered counseling PRIOR to sending her on the national stage where she would most obviously be made into the object of a circus. I don't think she was in a position to make an informed decision about what she would be exposed to by going to Berlin.

I am not sure how, where, and against whom intersexed people should be racing. The whole idea of men and women categories is indeed antiquated to what we know today about everything in between and beyond. It's rather easy to solve as far as washrooms are concerned, but for sporting events it's a bit more complex. I wonder what the Gay Games do, because obviously they would have had to tackle this issue. (Anyone has info on that?)

I don't usually care for large sporting events, but this could be a good opportunity for gender-bending advocates to come up with some smart proposal to make the world move forward. It won't happen tomorrow but there might be a kernel of revolution in this situation. (I'm such an optimist.)

BalaRoja

09-12-2009, 08:48 AM

So if she wore makeup, maybe sprinted in a skort ;) this whole thing would not happen?

I seriously think this is a factor in the entire reaction to Semenya.

Because she isn't, let's say as 'feminine' (whatever that means) as her competitors, she does become an easier target for such allegations. I feel the 'gender' police - as in what is expected of a woman - is certainly out and making itself known in this case.

However there may be a definite reason why she isn't naturally as 'feminine' (again, a vague term but somewhat useful for discussion).

FWIW, after the reports came out about her being intersexed - I suspect she has partial, not complete AIS. Meaning that her system does somewhat respond to the increased testosterone that her testes produce and her body shows that relationship.

People with complete AIS tend to look different than those with partial AIS.

In fact there are various grades which cover the range of AIS, from complete AIS, to 6 grades of partial AIS (PAIS).

In complete AIS you'd have the following:

# Female body shape
# Large breasts with juvenile nipples
# Absent/scanty axillary and pubic hair
# No temporal hair recession (balding)
# Female external genitalia with small labia
# Blind-ending vagina
# Absent or rudimentary internal genitalia
# Gonads consistent histologically with cryptorchid testes
# Hyperplasia of interstitial cells: adenoma

Here's a bit more detail on what some of the various levels of AIS tend to correlate with:

1. Complete AIS (CAIS): completely female body except no uterus, fallopian tubes or ovaries; testes in the abdomen; minimal androgenic (pubic or axillary) hair at puberty.[5]

2. Partial or incomplete AIS (PAIS): male or female body, with slightly virilized genitalia or micropenis; testes in the abdomen; sparse to normal androgenic hair.[5]
Man with micropenis, hypogonadism and gynecomastia

3. Reifenstein syndrome: obviously ambiguous genitalia; small testes may be in abdomen or scrotum; sparse to normal androgenic hair; gynecomastia at puberty.[6]

4. Infertile male syndrome: normal male genitalia internally and externally; normal male body or possible female androgyny, normal virilization and androgenic hair; reduced sperm production; reduced fertility or infertility.[6]

5. Undervirilized fertile male syndrome: male internal and external genitalia with micropenis; testes in scrotum; normal androgenic hair; sperm count and fertility normal or reduced.[6]

6. X-linked spinal and bulbar muscular atrophy: normal or nearly normal male body and fertility; exaggerated adolescent gynecomastia; adult onset degenerative muscle disease.[7]

For those of you who are curious about someone with complete AIS, perhaps you've heard of Eden Atwood? A well known american jazz singer www.edenatwood.com

Interestingly enough, one of the usual hallmarks of complete AIS is no underarm/pubic hair.

Obviously we've seen that Semenya does have underarm hair - which in and of itself is nothing to comment on - but that, along with her bone structure and build, suggests is that she doesn't have complete AIS.

If she doesn't have complete AIS then she's almost certainly got partial AIS - meaning her body can and does use some of the extra testosterone. That could well mean she does have an advantage.

Why?

Because the IAAF has determined that testosterone is the key factor in determining an athlete's participation status as male or female.

Ultimately, much as many of you have said, I feel worst for Semenya. I can't help but think of a variety of ulterior motives that different people, be it the press, her handlers (not family, but athletic coaches/federation), etc all have in this. Semenya's a teen and this is terrible scrutiny to be put under and very harsh.

Selkie

09-12-2009, 09:15 AM

I briefly saw a piece on one of the Saturday morning shows about this today. A doctor described Semenya's condition as a "birth defect" (not in a pejorative way, though). Someone, perhaps a journalist from SI, said that if they start screening and classifying athletes due to "genetic advantages," it would be akin to a dog show (different "breeds"). For example, those with a higher number of high-twitch muscle fibers in one group, those with fewer in another. Kind of a rough analogy but it makes one think.

I don't really have a strong opinion about this but I feel very bad for Semenya. I see her as a gifted athlete and hope she gets through all this with her dignity and self-esteem intact.

colby

09-12-2009, 09:32 AM

Another Sociological Images post on Caster and her recent makeover in a South African magazine:

http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/09/12/semenyas-makeover-gender-as-performance/

They do include a comment at the end about how complicated it is.

KnottedYet

09-15-2009, 05:44 AM

http://medindia.net/news/Gender-Row-Runner-Semenya-Placed-On-Suicide-Watch-58003-1.htm

Did no one expect her to try to commit suicide?

She should have been getting counselling from the very first second, and whoever leaked test results to the Australian media should be fired.

Pax

09-15-2009, 06:35 AM

That poor child. :(

Grog

09-15-2009, 07:13 PM

Hey ladies, anyone has the time to look into finding her fan club's address? Perhaps we could organize to send her some fan mail and encouragement? A hug from the women of TE?

papaver

09-15-2009, 10:24 PM

Here you are

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=iol1252746898722C236

Thorn

07-07-2010, 02:12 PM

Finally....she has been cleared to compete. My wish is that all goes behind her and society learns something; the cynic in me....well....sigh....

http://www.feministing.com/archives/021756.html

malkin

07-09-2010, 03:37 PM

I wish her the emotional strength to match her physical strength.

shootingstar

07-09-2010, 03:46 PM

This sounds like strange comment...but after such intense international scrutiny and also in South Africa (hope I got her country affiliation right), she's better off basing herself in a totally different country with different competitive sport/coaching support.

KnottedYet

07-09-2010, 03:53 PM

She has nothing to be ashamed of.

I don't understand why she should move to another country. Everyone knows who she is, everyone knows she was cleared of cheating (deliberately or accidentally).

If her coach doesn't suit her, sure a new coach might be good. But why leave her home? She did nothing wrong.

Trek420

07-09-2010, 08:07 PM

I don't think she should move to another country either. Competition and training is tough, she's under much scrutiny. She should have the support of family and close friends nearby.

shootingstar

07-09-2010, 10:23 PM

I don't think she should move to another country either. Competition and training is tough, she's under much scrutiny. She should have the support of family and close friends nearby.

Most likely she has good support of some key family and friends.

This has nothing to do with being ashamed or "hiding". After all, whenever she competes, she will be forever scrutinized publicly more than others because of the international limelight. And probably parts of her personal life in her own country/city wherever she lives.

I knew my comment sounded strange...many people leave a country to live permanently elsewhere in a different culture/country faraway --even often leaving behind loving, supportive family members and friends. To begin the next stage of their life in...a different, freer way, away from frequent scrutiny/nosiness even if they have done nothing wrong.

This is all conjecture, of course.