Should I really avoid entry level road bikes?

[Erin_AK]

Hi ladies! Brand new to this forum. I've found my way here many times through Google searches while researching for the purchase of my first road bike, and have been pleasantly surprised to find an internet forum where people are knowledgeable AND nice and polite. I've spent a bit of time on various ski forums and thought that ridiculous behavior was sort of part and parcel for the internet. Not so--apparently that's just guys! :p

Because you all are so nice, I decided to actually join and post a question.

I'm currently on a clunker MTB with slicks and have been wanting a road bike all summer so I can go fast enough to keep up with my BF on his road bike, commute more efficiently, and keep my legs in shape for ski season. Long rides and hill climbs around my house are moderately fun on the clunker, and I am sure I'd have a blast zipping around on a fast road bike! I'm not necessarily planning on racing or triathlons right now, but haven't ruled out future competitive ventures or club rides if I get into cycling. I have spent time visiting different shops, fitting and riding several bikes, researching components, etc. over the last few months, and decided that an ideal bike would have carbon fork, carbon seatstays, at least 105s, and cost under $1000. I hadn't really found anything new or used that fit the bill, until yesterday.

One LBS has a 2007 Fuji Finest 2.0 for $599. 9 spd triple, RD is a 105. It's not my most favorite bike that I have ridden and it has a Tigra FD, no carbon seatstays, and is a little too pink for me, but the price is certainly right! I really want to like it, but the shop guy was trying hard to convince me that I will "out-grow" this bike really quickly, which brings me to my posted question:

Should I really steer clear of entry level road bikes? All the LBSs certainly say so, but then again, they are trying to make money, right? I have ridden better, more expensive bikes and, of course, like them more, but I would love to know if you ladies think, given my goals, that it is worth it to aim higher?

I will admit that I like nice gear and can afford to cough up $1300, but don't necessarily want to. I am a fourth year med student, just moved into a new house, and need new skis this year!:)

Other bikes I have ridden in order of love:
09 Kona Lisa RD--compact double, carbon fork, Ultegra/105 mix, nice wheelset according to the shop guy, $1299
08 Specialized Dolce Comp--carbon fork & seatstays, 105s, $1450 (too much!)
09 Novara Carema Pro--carbon fork & seatstays, 105s, $1149
08 Giant OCR A1--compact double, 1/2 carbon frame, 105s, $1149 but I think the LBS sold it
08 Specialized Dolce Elite-- 9 spd triple, carbon fork & seatstays, but with Tiagra/105 mix, $1149

All of the above are in the range of good fit, with some that fit better than others. I'm going to the Jamis/Felt shop today.

Also, I don't know the first thing about wheels but have heard that a quality wheelset is arguably more important than quality components which can be relatively cheaply upgraded. Thoughts on this? Can anyone recommend an information source for learning about the grading of wheel quality?

Thanks so much in advance for any advice you all might have and sincere apologies for the length of this post!!

[Pedal Wench]

<<
All of the above are in the range of good fit, with some that fit better than others. >>>

Without a doubt, go with the one that fits the best. If you're feeling a difference on a short ride from the shop, imagine how that will feel 20, 30, 100 miles into a ride. Get the one that fits best.

[GLC1968]

Ditto Pedal Wench. Fit first. Everything else can be changed.

And DO NOT buy the Fuji no matter how good the price. If you don't 'feel it' now, imagine how much you'll come to resent the bike when/if you outgrow the components.

As a comparison, I bought a Fuji as my first road bike partly because I was getting excellent componentry for the price. It was a sweet deal and I loved the bike (awesome colors, comfy, etc). I really got into riding and as my rides got longer, I realized that the bike was too big for me and it caused me a lot of pain (that I didn't have on 30 mile rides). I began to resent the bike and I ended up trading it in on something else less than a year later. And yet I loved that bike when I picked it out!

That said, there is nothing wrong with entry level road bikes. It's just that so very often, as you get to know what kind of riding you do, your needs may change. It happens to most of us! I think your best bet is to buy a bike that fits (first and foremost) and then look to good quality. If you do end up changing your mind and wanting something else, if you buy quality, you'll be better able to sell it or trade it in. Don't just go for the 'deal'.

And welcome to the world of cycling! :)

[Zen]

Commuting.
Would any of these bikes really be good for that?

[Erin_AK]

Commuting.
Would any of these bikes really be good for that?

Gosh, I don't know. I guess I just assumed so because my BF and friends commute on pretty nice road bikes, but maybe I was wrong? I also wanted a bike that would be fast on long rides. The commute is just bike path/lane the whole way, and I don't plan on riding in the winter, if that makes a difference?

Are you thinking I should look at cyclecross bicycles as well?

Thanks for the input, everyone!

[MartianDestiny]

My thoughts:

Any bike that fits will keep your legs in shape for skiing, so that's an easy requirement.

Which is most suited for a commute depends entirely on your commute, parking, what you have to carry, weather, and you. The #1 bike I ALWAYS want to reach for first is my full carbon race bike, commute or not. BUT, I only need carry a laptop and lunch in a backpack, I can park it in my locked office, have 300+ days of sun, etc. When I have to carry more or park outside or it's boarderline nasty I ride either the mountain bike with a trailer or my entry level road bike (aluminum Giant). Lots of people, on the other hand, want or need a dedicated commuter (typically a flat bar type roadie with fenders, etc).

And then there is keeping up with BF. That of course depends on what kind of rider he is, etc. But my experience is you really DO need a well tuned bike with decent components (105 is fine) and true road gearing (10 speed rear and a ROAD triple or double (pick either, but no mountain bike gearing)). Keep in mind my experience is keeping pace in a 23MPH group for 50+ miles. A true "entry level" (8 speed Sora rear and lower gearing) doesn't cut it.

What makes for a fast roadie though makes for a poor "true" commuter though (no room for fenders, poor clearance for wider tires, aero/forward positioning, no way in heck you want to lock it somewhere, no rack mounts, etc). You'll have to choose your compromise based on your goals for commuting and riding for fitness.

As for the bikes themselves:
I have *heard* that carbon seat stays really don't offer too much in terms of added comfort. I cannot vouch for that personally as I went straight from full Al to full carbon. BUT, I'd pick the bike that is comfortable for you and in your price range and not obsess over presence or absence of carbon stays. That said, I rode the half and half Giant (with the carbon spine) and was pleasantly impressed with it's ride.

In the same vein, trying for full 105 is a good standard to hold to. But again, if you ride the bike and love it and it's in your price range now, don't write it off completely because the front derailleur is Tiagra. (Hint: used, and even new 105 FD's are NOT that expensive, if it bugs you fix it later ;) )

An argument to actually dropping down to some of the middle of the road bikes in your range price wise, especially if $1300 is your absolute max, is you will need some $$ for things like: saddle (rarely does a stock saddle actually fit you and remain comfortable), pedals and shoes, handlebars (may be fine, but it is a "contact point" and subject to preference...I had to change mine and knew instantly.)

So, the short version is that I agree with the shops that you should be avoiding truly "entry level" bikes, since you do have the budget for something nicer. But, my definition of "entry level" is Sora components, not standard road bike gearing, etc. and typically in the neighborhood of $500-600, not $1000.

Good luck searching :)

[tongue_tied]

I can tell you that I bought a Cannondale hybrid for "commuting", in my price range (about $500) and soon after, realized that I should have gone with a road bike. My commuting needs took a backseat to the type of riding I really wanted to do - hard, fast, and long. I ended up getting a Blue RD1 after less than a year of ownership with my hybrid... it probably had less than 100 miles on it.

So, I can understand what the LBS are telling you about not leaning towards "entry level" bikes. But what are your needs? Simply commuting may be a hybrid, or even a cyclocross... but if you're wanting something more, you may want to shop around. If you're wanting something in the sub $1K category, componentry is going to be BASICALLY the same all around, so, to echo everyone, the FIT is genuinely the most important. Go with what feels the best for you - your body will thank you later.

[MartianDestiny]

Commuting.
Would any of these bikes really be good for that?

I prefer to commute on my 3k carbon road bike. Rarely is it not possible for me to ride it when I'm still willing to commute (I'm a bit of a fair weather commuter), and 99% of those instances are because I need to stop at a store and refuse to lock it to a rack.

Nice road bikes can be fine for commuting, depending of course on the commute.

[Ana]

Gosh, I don't know. I guess I just assumed so because my BF and friends commute on pretty nice road bikes, but maybe I was wrong? I also wanted a bike that would be fast on long rides. The commute is just bike path/lane the whole way, and I don't plan on riding in the winter, if that makes a difference?

Are you thinking I should look at cyclecross bicycles as well?


I would never ride a road bike costing more than $1,000 anywhere unless I could lock it up inside (in a place that has limited access).

A cyclocross frame might suit you well for your purposes :) You could have a set of slicks and one with more grip for off roads :)

If your heart is set on a road frame, you should go with that. Go with what feels the best for you, regardless of the price, and see where it goes from there. Even if you have a fabulous test ride, the bike could require some tweaking (adjustment of parts: saddle, seatpost, stem, etc) or be the wrong size :) If it's uncomfortable, you probably won't want to ride it :p :(

Go on a nice long test ride and see what your body tells you. Don't hesitate to have them adjust the stem length, seatpost height, etc for your test ride :) If they aren't willing then you might not want to be supporting that shop with your business :p

When I was shopping for my first road bike, the sales staff made me feel like the bike I could afford would somehow reflect my worth as a rider :p The sales person scoffed when I asked about the Trek 1000 and said "you don't want that bike." I ended up with my LeMond Tourmalet which I fell in love with when I test rode it :) But the sales person made me feel like it wasn't enough bike for me, even though I discovered that it was plenty! It was my first road bike: it fit me pretty well and had 105 triple. What more could I ask for? :p

Since my purchase at that shop, I have only been back a handful of times and have yet to be impressed with their service or feel welcome at their store. :( When my bike came back from a free tune-up with an overtightened seatpost, causing a deep ring I started doing my own maintenance. For the maintenance I cannot do on my own (due to lack of tools and knowledge), I go to another shop which is friendly and has always treated me well.

[aicabsolut]

First, only YOU can decide whether the price of bike X is worth it to YOU. Second, if you want a road bike, get a road bike. If the clunker (or a car or bus) is more appropriate for your commute sometimes, then use those other options when you need to. Your want of a road bike seems to go well beyond your commute, and although cross bikes are nice, sometimes it is hard to make them into speedy road machines much more than your MTB with slicks due to cross gearing and wheels. (Some wheels could take skinny tires but if you want thick tires for commuting, then that is a pain or at least requires 2 wheelsets if you want to go with skinny ones for going fast). Plus, decent cross bikes really aren't going to cost any less than the road bikes you're looking at.


As for what componentry you want/need, here are my thoughts: Carbon seat stays are not necessary..and possibly not the fork. Some manufacturers of aluminum/carbon mixed bikes go with the theory that carbon is more important in the front triangle and fork. So you'll find a stiff front end that molds into full aluminum towards the rear. Others put more carbon in the rear triangle. Sometimes this is in the seatstays. Sometimes the chainstays. Sometimes both.

In any event, low level carbon isn't going to give you much noticeable improvement over full aluminum or alum/carbon mixes. All are fine for a first bike. Ride them all and see which bike gives you the ride you like the best. This may have a lot more to do with geometry and the grouppo than the frame material at this price point.

Personally, I wouldn't get anything below 105, because Tiagra and Sora are a pain in my butt to keep tuned properly, and they just aren't responsive. It would make me not want to ride the bike. Now for serious racing, I prefer Dura Ace performance, because well, having built up a DA bike, it is so hard for me to go back to 105/ultegra on my other bike, even though it works just fine. In fact, I may snap up some $200 closeout 7800 model shifters for that bike to help me get on it more often this fall, because it's good for long training miles... but I digress. Is 105 or better necessary? No. Would you outgrow Tiagra? Maybe. It's hard to tell. But the good thing is that if you stick with 9spd, it will be cheaper than the equivalent level for 10spd.

By the way, if your university has a cycling team, collegiate cycling is a great way to give racing a try! It's typically more low-key (more intro categories), and it's cheaper than jumping into your local amateur scene. NCAA eligibility rules don't apply, so many of the racers are grad students.

[KnottedYet]

Without a doubt, go with the one that fits the best. If you're feeling a difference on a short ride from the shop, imagine how that will feel 20, 30, 100 miles into a ride. Get the one that fits best.

Yup! Buy the one you love! (and that fits in your price range) There is nothing wrong with entry-level bikes, unless you just don't feel the bike love when you ride them!

I've ridden expensive full-carbon bikes and hated them, I've ridden "cheap" road bikes and loved them, I've ridden sturdy commuter bikes that made my heart sing. I've found cyclocross geometry suits my body nicely, though I've never raced cross and never will. Price and level and type only matter in budgeting! The real thing is the gut-feeling of "this bike is meant for ME" when you ride it.

ETA: you can always find a way to make the bike you love function as a commuter. Clip on "racing blade" fenders, juicy-but-narrow-enough tires, seatpost racks, backpacks, etc.

[Erin_AK]

Wow, I really appreciate all the great information! This has been super helpful--I'm so glad I decided to post.

I rode a Jamis Ventura Race WSD today that I liked a lot. The shop spent the time to measure me and put me on a trainer, which I appreciated especially since I was looking at a bike in the lowest price range they carry. I'm 5'3 with a 30 inch inseam and long arms, so other shops have been putting me on 50-51cm frames where I've felt pretty comfortable--probably because I could keep the seat even with the handlebars and wasn't forced into a more aggressive stance. The guy today emphasized that a lot of people end up buying road bikes that are too big, and although I could have gone with either a 51 or 48 in the Jamis, I rode both of them and the 48 did end up feeling better.

EXCEPT, I'm not used to being so bent over handlebars and after riding around for 20 minutes or so, my arms were really tired! I'm not heavy or in bad shape, so I'm trying to figure out whether arm soreness means that the bike isn't actually the best fit or that I just need to get used to the different body positioning. Is arm soreness all part of the new rider experience? Then again, maybe a racy-type fit is less important for me? I'm just worried about getting a bike that doesn't fit correctly in the long run, as everyone has cautioned. It was also really hard for me to separate out the terrible pain the saddle was inflicting upon my nether-regions and good vs. bad fit! Yikes! I hear what you all are saying about leaving extra $$$ for accessories, as a new saddle will be a must!

The guy said there is some room to swamp out for a slightly more upright stem, so maybe that will help the arms. I plan to go back within the next few days to ride it and some of the other bikes again to compare after this new fit info and all the input from here.

Thanks again for all of the help! Lots to ponder....

[KnottedYet]

If the saddle was agonizing, you would naturally shift your weight from your butt to your arms instead. Thus making your arms tired from the extra work.

Can you try the bike with a saddle you like?

[Kelly728]

I won't be very helpful here but I smiled when you said you liked the Jamis.
That is my lovely, I just don't have the WSD version. :D

Following what KnottedYet said, you would be amazed at what a proper fitting saddle will do for you on a bike that fits. With my Jamis and the original saddle, the first few rides were almost agonizing. I was even having buyer's remorse. My visit back to the LBS for the full fitting involved absolutely no other changes except for a saddle swap and positioning. Immediately I went from arched back/locked out weight baring arms to a much more comfortable position since there wasn't that pressure on my girly bits.

[Eden]

What makes for a fast roadie though makes for a poor "true" commuter though (no room for fenders, poor clearance for wider tires, aero/forward positioning, no way in heck you want to lock it somewhere, no rack mounts, etc). You'll have to choose your compromise based on your goals for commuting and riding for fitness.

To each his own. My commuter is a relatively fast roadie (well - its a fast roadie with a heavy duty wheelset and gatorskins on, which makes it a somewhat slightly less fast roadie). I have fenders - no they aren't full fenders, yes they still keep my feet dry and my back dry. Could I mount full fenders - yes if I felt like it, with some modifications, but I've seen too many people break them too easily, so I stay with race blades. I don't need a rack - I use a messenger bag. I don't feel the need for wide tires. It's also my winter training bike, aka rain bike. I'm happy with this setup and don't feel the need to have a "true commuter".

[tpb]

I've got a Bianchi Volpe that I use for commuting. It is a 'cross bike / light touring bike. By the spec, the derailleurs were supposed to be Tiagra/Deore. For some reason, the front was upgraded to 105 - and I upgraded the rear to XT. I also swapped the tires for slicks since my commute is 16 miles on paved trail/road. With these changes, it was only about $1100 - which would leave you some $ for extras.

I'm not a speed-demon, so I can't judge whether it would be fast enough. It is, however, comfortable and versatile. I can use it like a road bike or a commuter. I HATE riding with a backpack so I have it outfitted with a rack so I can use a trunk or pannier (depending on what I need to carry). There are also room for fenders should I ever want to add them.

Anyway, my point is, if there is a LBS that carries Bianchi, you may want to try out the Volpe. It's a great "I'm not entirely sure what kind of bike I want so I want one that I can do anything with" bike.

Enjoy.
TB

[aicabsolut]

Have you considered trying non-WSD bikes?

I've personally found that my arms and shoulders are sore when my reach is too short (too squished in and not sitting properly), and that my lower back and neck gets stiff when the reach is too long (too bent over, too hard to look up where I'm going).

[fatbottomedgurl]

I have one thought. A piece of advice I learned from my dad. Basically he taught me to buy the best I could afford, and if I wanted something I could not afford, then I should wait and save up for it. He said (and I often learned from his mistakes), that buying the cheaper item costs more than twice as much in the long run because you end up trashing the first and buying what you really want later.

With that, I understand the desire to get your feet wet and not pop the big bucks, so you might consider watching Craigslist for something used that you can ride the h*ll out of and decide if you really want a road bike after all. You shouldn't spend more than half of retail on a used bike, so at "entry level" you could get a bike for $250 from someone else who made the mistake of buying it new.

[tulip]

I see you live in Alaska and that you won't be commuting in the winter. But what part of Alaska? I've spent some non-winter time in Juneau, and there's alot of rain. Would you be riding to work in the rain, and therefore need fenders? Many road bikes can't accommodate fenders.

Getting weight off your hands involves having really good form and a very strong core. That is, in addition to a properly-fitted bike. You should not have any saddle pain.

[Erin_AK]

Have you considered trying non-WSD bikes?

I've personally found that my arms and shoulders are sore when my reach is too short (too squished in and not sitting properly), and that my lower back and neck gets stiff when the reach is too long (too bent over, too hard to look up where I'm going).

I have considered non-WSD bikes, as apparently I don't have the typical WSD short-arm, long-leg build. (Instead, buying a road bike has helped me realize that I'm built more like a little monkey-woman. :) Oh well). I do have tiny hands, but from what I understand, short reach brakes aren't necessary as all brakes are easy to shim. Does that sound correct? The problem has been that all of the shops in my town seem to have stopped stocking the sub-50cm men's bikes, since the WSDs have been working fine for most women, and they have a tough time moving those little men's bikes.

So it sounds as if the arm soreness may have been due to a cramped reach or the uncomfortable saddle or possibly both, but definitely not something I should expect to experience. It's too bad--I really enjoyed the vibe at the Jamis shop and would love to buy a bike from them, but what they're offering may not be the best fit for me.

Also, thanks to everyone on the commute advice! I will be able to lock my bike in a limited access area, already have a race blade fender for my MTB, already ride with a messenger bag or backpack, and am not worried about the skinny tires. Basically I just want to get to work faster, so it sounds as if it would be reasonable to commute on a road bike.

Additionally, I really do want a bike that I can push to go fast and hard. I have taken the MTB both with and without slicks on 30 mile road rides (which I know isn't THAT long) and was truly amazed to discover that I'm not slow on that thing, even compared to some friends with road bikes. Biking is fun for me, and I'm excited to see how fast and far I can go with a good bike. I should just accept that I need to spend more money than I originally thought! :)

[Erin_AK]

I see you live in Alaska and that you won't be commuting in the winter. But what part of Alaska? I've spent some non-winter time in Juneau, and there's alot of rain. Would you be riding to work in the rain, and therefore need fenders? Many road bikes can't accommodate fenders.

Getting weight off your hands involves having really good form and a very strong core. That is, in addition to a properly-fitted bike. You should not have any saddle pain.

Good point. I will split my time between Anchorage and Seattle this winter and move to Anchorage full time next winter. I'm definitely not hard-core enough to want to ride on snow and always have rain gear with me when I commute in Seattle. The weather is so unpredictable, and I have been soaked by the ride home on more than one occasion.:p

You have totally nailed my weakness--I have never had a strong core!:o How should this impact my choice of fit?

[KnottedYet]

You have totally nailed my weakness--I have never had a strong core!:o How should this impact my choice of fit?

Might be better to let it impact your choice of exercises! ;)

Seriously, though, a strong core is such a bonus for so many aspects of life on this planet that it might be worth your while to strengthen it. (yoga prone and side planks and prone boat are great places to start)

[aicabsolut]

Have you tried 50cm men's bikes? They can be hard to find. See if you can just find anyone around who has one you can sit on. If you can narrow things down, then you can just get a shop to order what you want. To accommodate small hands, you might need to shim the brakes and change handlebars, but those are cheap to free swaps, depending on the shop (I swapped out bars of equal value from stock and the shop didn't charge me anything for ordering the smaller ones).

Also, keep trying both size ranges (48-51). Different manufacturers will have different geometry.