More hostility towards cyclists.....

[TrekTheKaty]

I hate to say it, but there is more hostility towards cyclists coming my way. My sister has been informed by our local park rangers, that there have been numerous instances of pedestrian-cyclist crashes at our local park involving injuries/broken bones. They are going to start giving tickets.

I have no back-up information, but can only assume the tickets are for cyclists. Of course, it must be our fault. No need to repeat the thread about clueless pedestrians who are oblivious to their surroundings.

First of all, I don't know how park rangers can give tickets. And what will it be for? Speeding? DH has checked, and it says no excessive speed--what's excessive speed? Careless and wreckless? For what? I am trying to write a very polite letter stating that there are two sides. What do you think:

As a frequent visitor of Creve Couer park, I am concerned to hear there have been numerous incidents between cyclists and pedestrians. I kayak at the park approximately twice a week, and bicycle approximately three times a week. I am glad to hear there will be an increased ranger presence because of these incidents. However, I would like to share the cyclist’s side.
I frequently come up behind people who are either wearing ipods, talking on the phone or talking to others in their group. They are oblivious to their surroundings. I also frequently come upon people walking three wide or crossing over the center line without looking around. The third hazard is dogs, usually on a retractable leashes—while their owners are unaware their dog is stretched across the path. I have a bell and announce “on my left” when passing pedestrians, and come to a complete stop if I am unable to get the pedestrians attention and can’t pass safely. However, many pedestrians still seem unaware of the possibility of being passed by behind--by either joggers, rollerbladers or cyclists.

I hope this issue can be resolved with more public awareness of proper trail etiquette. We make an effort to say “Hi” to many of our fellow exercisers, and have even made friends at the park. I hope this problem can be resolved without any further conflict.

[bmccasland]

TrekTheKaty - your letter sounds good. I would change one sentence slightly: "They seem to be oblivious to their surroundings."

I hope some kind of PR campaign will work about everyone sharing the trials will work. Pedestrians may have the right-of-way over wheels, but that doesn't give them the right to take over, IMHO.

[channlluv]

At the lake where I ride, they were forced to drain one of the soggy wetland ends, pull out all kinds of plants, and put gravel down there because a doctor walking through the soggy trail threatened to sue the city and state if he ever tripped and injured himself because of the poor trail upkeep.

He didn't even actually get hurt, just threatened a lawsuit. I have to think if people in your park have actually been hurt - and it could just as easily have been the cyclist forced off the road and into a tree who broke a bone (I shared a story here a long time ago about a young friend of my daughter's who went over a 12-foot embankment because a clueless pedestrian didn't yield the lane) - that there are threats of legal action flying about. That's enough to make the higher-ups make all sorts of official restrictions, if only to cover their collective posteriors in case of lawsuits.

There's a posted 15mph speed limit at our lake, and there are huge signs posted at both entry points telling people to keep right. (Not that it works - that clueless pedestrian didn't pay attention.) It's a MUP, including cars and trucks heading down to the fishing holes. Maybe you could recommend something like that to your council people.

Roxy

[OakLeaf]

+1 to what Beth said.

If you want to get even more involved, you might offer to help come up with actual rules for the path, that would then be enforceable. Obviously if there are no rules there can be no tickets, but I don't necessarily think that having rules is a bad idea.

Some of the MUPs in my area have a posted 15 mph speed limit and I really don't think that's unreasonable. (Cyclists who want to go faster belong on the road, and the ones who are using the path to access a road can just chill until they get there.) A center line (if there isn't already one), keep right except to pass. Wheeled vehicles including strollers, single file except when passing. Pets on leashes not exceeding 4 feet in length. Audible signal when passing. Person being passed must yield to the right. Children under 10 must be accompanied by a responsible adult. And so on.

[jobob]

I have no back-up information, but can only assume the tickets are for cyclists. Of course, it must be our fault. No need to repeat the thread about clueless pedestrians who are oblivious to their surroundings.

Errr, sorry, but ... on shared trails it's up to cyclists to give wide berth to pedestrians, or to yield to pedestrians.

It doesn't really matter if the pedestrians are clueless, it's up to us cyclists to avoid them. So yes, in cyclist/ped accidents, technically it is the cyclist who is at fault.

That should be spelled out on shared paths, but even if its not, cyclists should be aware of that anyhow.

Sorry ... :o

[Thorn]

+1 to jobob

Yield to the slower form of transportation. Always. If we expect cars to treat us with respect, we need to treat the slower forms with respect.

[Eden]

I know it can be tempting to complain about pedestrians if you use MUPS, but whenever you get annoyed, write down what you want to say, then replace walker with cyclist and cyclist with car and see how you would feel about it then.....

It is always the responsibility of the larger/faster party to be aware and careful of the more vulnerable. On the road that means cars need to be aware of cyclists and on a MUP cyclists need to be aware of peds. It doesn't excuse bad behavior and certainly accidents can be caused by clueless walkers, but it does obligate cyclists to slow down and yield to walkers, even if the walkers are not following all of the rules.

[Biciclista]

yes. My stepfather was about 80 when he quit walking on a MUP, because of this incident: a cyclist came up behind him and probably said "on your left" and he heard "LEFT" so he went LEFT and got hit and knocked down. Is it his FAULT? Our society is based on taking care of the more vulnerable parts of it. The cyclist should have been ready to stop, based on the possibility that he might not hear you, and he certainly can't see you.
I agree however, that they aren't making it any easier by wearing headphones so they can't hear you no matter what and we really shouldn't have to hand out warnings "Bicycles use this multiple use path, beware" you know? :confused:

[Duck on Wheels]

Yup, on the MUP I always tinkle with the bell or call out a good bit behind when approaching pedestrians, then slow down and prepare to stop until I can see how they're gonna respond. Oh, and smile and say thanks when I pass them after they pull to one side or the other, or both (groups will often split). My commute route takes me past a pre-school, a petting farm, an elementary school and an elder center. My route home via the gym takes me past a pre-school, two health facilities (one a psychiatric hospital and the other a training facility for young people with cp) a middle school and a high school. I also share both routes with hundreds of students, mostly unhelmeted and wearing ear buds. You really can't assume that the pedestrians I pass here will all know, or remember, the traffic rules. You can't even assume that they all know, or remember, what "right" and "left" mean. So the one "rule" that applies is that whoever's using the bigger, faster, harder vehicle -- in this instance, the bike -- is the one responsible for everybody's safety. The only times I allow myself to be upset about traffic on the MUP is when there are cars there (as is allowed in some situations) and they don't take that responsibility. Just the other day, a van driving off the campus from a construction site almost ran me over twice, first backing onto the MUP for a Y-turn off a pathway, then pulling forward towards the road right after I'd veered around him to keep him from backing into me. THAT was unacceptable!!! :eek:

[MartianDestiny]

I hate to say it, but there is more hostility towards cyclists coming my way. My sister has been informed by our local park rangers, that there have been numerous instances of pedestrian-cyclist crashes at our local park involving injuries/broken bones. They are going to start giving tickets.

I have no back-up information, but can only assume the tickets are for cyclists. Of course, it must be our fault. No need to repeat the thread about clueless pedestrians who are oblivious to their surroundings.


GOOD FOR THE PARK!

On a MUT a) cyclists must ALWAYS yield to pedestrians b) It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the person passing to ensure it's safe.

Unlike on a road the other people can be as oblivious and stupid as they want and the above two things still apply in full force.

IMO, many many cyclists (on both MUTs and roads) NEED to be ticketed much more frequently. They routinely endanger themselves and others and give the rest of us a black eye (which then endangers all of us, physically, and from an access point of view). It's high time "we" (collective we) start paying for it. Excessive speed (on most areas of most MUTs that's anything >15mph), unsafe passing, reckless endangerment; you name it I've seen it (as a cyclist AND a pedestrian) and I'd really love to see my fellow brethren getting hit in the wallet for it!

If you are cycling safely then you have nothing to worry about.

I think it would be fair to ask them to clarify just what they are looking to ticket for, clarify the expected rules and guidelines, and post signage to that effect if it's not already there (ie: speed limits, "do not pass" signs and stripes in unsafe areas, "walk right, pass left" signs, etc).

I think it's also fair to ask them to consider the consequences of some of the pedestrian's actions as well (in addition to those of the cyclists). I for one would LOVE to see "no leashes longer than 6ft" signs to basically outlaw the retractable crap and people that let their dogs run all over the trail (and you can't SEE those leashes when they are stretched out either!!!). But as for people being oblivious to their surroundings, I think that's just going to happen and is to be expected in that type of environment. It's not really something the park can go around ticketing for (unlike excessive speed if a speed limit is posted, 6'+++ leashes, etc. which are more concrete infractions).

[TrekTheKaty]

Gosh! I guess I've just gotten defensive after reading all the current posts. There are posted rules, and they are pretty standard. I will take a pic tomorrow. As I recall--Keep right except when passing is one, which is my biggest complaint. There is a painted yellow line, which seems mostly useless. I'm sure there are bad cyclists there, as well as bad pedestrians. My DH doesn't like riding here, because we've outgrown it--but my sister does, so we limit it to one casual ride per week. I just don't want to see my rights taken away because of a few bad apples. The 15 mph and leash limit are great ideas. I'm anxious to stop and talk to a ranger myself--we frequently say "Hi" in the early mornings as they do their morning check of the path, and that is probably why they stopped my sis to talk.

I give pedestrians a wide berth and frequently have to stop if I can't get through. I've never hit anyone or had a confrontation. We say "Hi" to almost everyone, in an effort to show not all cyclists are jerks. A walker's dog (who keeps the well-behaved Lab on a short leash) had her paw clipped by a cyclist who didn't even stop to say he was sorry, or see if the dog was OK. Luckily, she doesn't hate cyclists, because my sister stopped and gave them a ride when it was hot and the path was closed (it's a 4 mile loop)--too long of a walk back to the car in the heat for the dog. We stay away on weekends, because it's too busy.

We do ride on the road, but I had my closest call this morning--so I'm pretty frustrated. A textbook "Right Hook #6", right off of bicyclesafety.com. As I rode up to a red light, a car passed me on the left, then turned 90 degrees across me and slowed down to get in the right turn lane. I yelled, "HHEEEEYY!" But she was on the phone:mad:. DH wanted to pull up to her passenger window and ask why she tried to hit me, but of course, she took off. Later, DH said I should have been watching for that, and I said, "I was! I was watching the cement truck in front of her that I was sure was going to miscalculate my speed!"

Maybe I need a massage:) Martian, you're right. I should be happy they are ticketing cyclists, because it should make it safer for all of us.

[jobob]

I bike a lot on a local paved multiuse trail, and occasionally I'll see an elderly person walking along holding a cane or a stick horizonally in front of him or her.

I cringe whenever I see that because it tells me that the person, or a friend, has at some point been startled by a cyclist passing too close -- and probably too fast :mad:. (And I have seen cyclists riding really fast in large packs on the trail, especially around the time of the springtime Early Bird Crits near the bay end of the trail -- yeah guys we know you're racers, good on ya's :rolleyes:)

When I see these stick-carrying folks folks in particular I slow down even more than usual, give them extra wide berths and give them a cheery hello when I pass by (calling it out if I'm approaching them from behind).

I hope they get the impression from me that not all of the cyclists using the trail are dorkwads. :p

[jobob]

I just don't want to see my rights taken away because of a few bad apples.

Which rights are those?

[Biciclista]

Trek theKaty, obviously you aren't the scofflaw that people are complaining about. Keep doing what you're doing!

[TrekTheKaty]

Which rights are those?

I guess it's a long story and I didn't tell it all. Rumors have been circulating since spring that pedestrians wanted the trail limited--maybe "no bike" days. Of course, my question was, "I hope that doesn't happen but, if it does--when are no pedestrian days?" Nothing happened. I guess I'm just worried they will prohibit bicycles altogether.

[MartianDestiny]

I guess it's a long story and I didn't tell it all. Rumors have been circulating since spring that pedestrians wanted the trail limited--maybe "no bike" days. Of course, my question was, "I hope that doesn't happen but, if it does--when are no pedestrian days?" Nothing happened. I guess I'm just worried they will prohibit bicycles altogether.

We have a mountain biking trail that has 2 "no bike" days a week. I don't like it, but that's the way it is since those before me screwed it up by being reckless.

I'd say if you don't want to see this happen, increased enforcement and tickets are going to HELP you by either a) teaching the unsafe cyclists the error of their ways or b) hacking them off enough that they stay away. I'd much rather see it done this way than the former.

[TrekTheKaty]

I spoke with my sis again. She said the park rangers were out today educating the public. They flagged her down and explained the situation. The bad news is: someone was knocked unconscious for 5 minutes and in the hospital for 2 weeks. This is sad. I don't want anyone to get hurt while out getting fresh air and exercise at the park. She was given a handout with the list of problems that they will begin ticketing for (speeding, not announcing passing, wreckless and yelling insults?!). She said they were friendly, had bikes on their cars and were good looking (Yo, Zen. Over here, got two more men for your calendar--in uniform!)

After awhile, they moved to the other side of the park--good, they're trying. And attempted to stopped her again. As she rolled up, the PR said, "Oh, I've already talked to you haven't I?" Then inadvertently stepped into her path, instead of off the path--then quickly hopped back out of the way. The other PR giggled and the second one burst out laughing. My sis gave them a big, sweet smile and said, "Passing on your left." She left them rolling on the ground.

After reviewing my original post--I was angry. But now I'm depressed. My sis rides there everyday--considers many people there like neighbors. We feel betrayed and suddenly unwelcome. It hurts. I'm sure I took this all too personally. I won't be able to get out this week to talk to the rangers, but that is probably just as well. You are all correct--pedestrians do have the right-of-way, but it seems like a matter of simple courtesy. Can't we all just get along?

[jobob]

IMHO I think you're taking this way too personally, love. Someone was injured and the authorities are under pressure to do something constructive to prevent future injuries.

It's clearly not your fault that this is happening, and unfortunately, apart from setting a good example, there's not a whole lot you can do to change it, as far as I can tell. Hopefully it'll eventually blow over and things will return to more or less normal.

In the meantime I think your best best, like others have suggested, is to just chill and hopefully the people who caused the problems in the first place will have their asses nailed to the wall or they'll go away and find a new sandbox to play in.

Sorry, that's all I've got. Wishing you well.

[TrekTheKaty]

OK, I'm over it. Thanks for listening everyone :)