Ranting about stupid dog ownership

[Dogmama]

A friend decided to adopt a dog from the humane society. I helped her pick out a really cute, but immature, border collie mix. She had it exactly one week & took it back. Why? Her "vet" said this dog had pit bull in it - primarily because it pulls on a leash and barked at dogs in the waiting room. Said it would eventually turn on her and would tear up her grandchildren. My friend called me with this news. I told her that her vet was a moron - google "Pit Bull" and call me back. She never did.

When she took Joey back, the poor pup freaked out (no kidding!!) and it supposedly took three people to hold this dog down (25 pounds) to give him a sedative. So now she's convinced this dog was a pit bull mix (obviously disguised as a border collie.)

I've worked with lots of pit bulls. Many are absolute sweethearts. It's the owners that mess them up. I could just scream.

I just pray that Joey gets a better life. And I swear, if my idiot friend every decides to adopt another dog, I'm calling the humane society & warning them about her. I'm so mad I could spit nails.

[tctrek]

I am not a dog-person, but I've worked with cats all my life. Adopting a pet is a serious commitment and it is disgusting how some people think a puppy or a kitten is like a pair of shoes. Buy it, try it, and if it doesn't fit throw it away.

Don't get me started on the real crazies that buy exotic snakes and reptiles and let them go into the wild. So, we have deadly snakes that are not native to the U.S. taking over our wetlands and Everglades because there's no predator to keep them in check.

Some people are just so insensitive and stupid when it comes to pets. It's maddening, frightening and so, so sad.

[OakLeaf]

If that's really what the vet said, I've got to blame the vet as much as your friend. More, really. If I'd adopted a pet and then been told by a "professional" that it would be sure to hurt my grandchildren, I'd probably take it back, too.

I have my doubts that that's really what she was told, though. So sad. :(

[tctrek]

I have my doubts that that's really what she was told, though. So sad. :(

Agreed. Hard to believe a vet would say something like that.

[Trek420]

:mad: I'm not saying your friend is telling a fib but that sounds like an excuse and not what the vet said. My pit mix barked at dogs and pulled on her leash when adopted. She pulled so hard that my ex (who really really wanted a dog) would not walk her. She said it hurt her arm. :rolleyes: This said by the gal who played defensive line on a women's semi pro football team. :rolleyes: ;)

But I walked Mae and was not about to take the clearly in the light of day pit/lab/something/something mix mutt back.

The vet recommended a training class as most vets would. :cool: Mae still barks at dogs but now has dogs she likes.

She walks beautifully on her leash.

She also likes going down the slide at the kiddie park. This abstract is her wagging tail.

I hope Joey finds a forever home

[Reesha]

You know... as frustrating as it is to see this happen, I can't help but think it's better for the dog than if the owner decided to keep them. Obviously it would be best for the dog to find a forever home straight away, but I'd rather see a dog returned than spend its life with a dog owner who isn't fully committed, you know?

[Biciclista]

bottom line it was obviously more dog than your friend could handle.
They should never have let her out of the door with it.

(but i know it's hard to screen !)

[Dogmama]

I do think Joey is better off and I'm sure he'll be adopted because he's very sweet, black & white with a very delicate bone structure.

I think my friend is an idiot - and yes - I do think that she lied about the vet conversation. She probably changed her mind - OK - but lying about it compounds the whole thing. When will people realize that a dog is for life - not just a plant to keep around until you get tired of watering it?

[smilingcat]

I have to agree with some who think that your friend fibed about the vet's comment.

Like others here, we also foster and adopt out cats. We used to foster dogs too.

It doesn't sound like the friend was ready for a forever companion. And it was a right decision to return instead of keeping the dog. The dog would have become more of a burden than a family member. Really sad to see the dog panicking but I hope his next adoption will be the right one, to a forever family.

If you think about it, there are no perfect forever pets. Just like children, they will get into trouble from time to time. From glass half-empty perspective, all pets have issues. For those of us who are commited to our animals, we see their faults/issues and accept them along with what they bring into our lives. We learn to live with their issues just as the animals do with our issues.

friend sent me this the other day.


A Lesson in Humility
If you can start the day without caffeine,
If you can get going without pep pills,
If you can always be cheerful, ignoring aches and pains,
If you can resist complaining and boring people with your troubles,
If you can eat the same food every day and be grateful for it,
If you can understand when your loved ones are too busy to give you any time,
If you can overlook it when those you love take it out on you, when, through no fault of yours, something goes wrong,
If you can ignore a friend's limited education and never correct him,
If you can resist treating a rich friend better than a poor friend,
If you can face the world without lies and deceit,
If you can conquer tension without medical help,
If you can relax without liquor,
If you can say honestly that deep in your heart you have no prejudice against creed, color or politics,
Then, my friend, you are almost as good as your dog.

-Anonymous


Your friend isn't ready to have a dog in the house. If she wants to have a dog again, suggest her to foster a dog and see for a while. If her interest in the dog wanes, the dog will be adopted out. The only drawback is, are there any resuce group willing to take her on as a foster parent.

I hope the dog will find a forever home. very sad.

[Biciclista]

Smilingcat, I disagree with you.
I have a perfect forever pet sitting on my lap right now.

[Irulan]

no comment on the fact that border collies and their mixes are super high energy, and that possible the poor thing was barking and pulling because it wasn't getting any exercise, ( or enough, as the case may be for that breed?)
??:confused:

[Selkie]

I agree w/Smilingcat. All pets can and will get into "trouble" but a good owner understands that a pet needs to learn the rules. I think a perfect pet would be boring. Flaws---be they human, canine, or feline---make us interesting. Even my "perfect" Agnes had flaws (chewing toilet paper, reams of computer paper, etc---things we blamed on Maeve until my husband caught Ags coming out of the bathroom with a roll of TP in her mouth, big fluffy golden tail wagging...) :D I miss that big girl.

Smilingcat, thank you for posting the Lesson in Humility. Right now, we are going through the puppy terrible twos with Margot, so it's good to have a reminder of innate goodness in a dog's heart (even an ornery one!). ;)

[Aggie_Ama]

I have the same friend! My Heidi isn't perfect but we deal with her flaws that are mostly our own. For instance, I got her as a student and she didn't have obedience class. She also didn't learn to scratch the door to go out, she sits there and hopes you notice. Pets are a huge commitment that some people don't think about. My DH was nervous to let me get a cat because it is additional expense, time, energy. We had just spent over $1,000 getting 4 extra months for poor Maggie Bear. If she had claws she would be tearing up my furtniture right now. She also gets on the corner which we hate! Not everyone thinks the cute dog will need so much work.

On a different vein, pits are evil by genetics. They (and rotts and mastiffs and every other big dog) are strong and can be trained to hurt. My parents rottweiler is 9 years old and has always been the world's biggest baby. She doesn't even bark often. Strangers puzzle her, then she likes them just fine. But my home owner's insurance would be higher if I had her. Of course I got bit by two pomeranians and one chihauhau working retail, luckily I always wore jeans. ;)

[grey]

I too get very defensive about pit bulls. I have a pit mix - she's the smartest dog you will ever meet. She opens our front door for company, and lets herself and our other dog back into the house if we don't respond to her bark that says she wants back in. Yes, she was high-energy for a long time, and she still runs circles around our shepherd mix who is 2 years younger, but you'll never meet a more intelligent, well-behaved, sensitive animal.

Over time, i have had pit bull strays show up at my house. Some were clearly used as bait dogs, or were beaten. The amazing thing about pits is they accept these beatings and keep on going - they don't seem to hold a grudge, or become shy (some do, I've cared for and re-homed many a pit). They are happy animals - those big heads of theirs make room for the biggest, happiest grins you ever saw, and their tails wag so hard they sting when they whip against your leg. I only had one that I felt could not be rehabbed, and it just killed me. This was nothing more than a puppy, he was in terrible shape, and was the most terrifying wild creature I ever came across.

Pit bulls do not "snap" - no more than any other breed. Evidence is starting to come to light that dogs who "snap" are actually rabid - from repeatedly getting the rabies vaccine. There are veterinarians in Canada who are trying very hard to get this brought to light. It's possible that some dog breeds have a lesser tolerance to getting the vaccine... and also possible that pits are just the fighting dog breed of choice, and are often given such horrible lives - I can't blame such an animal for "snapping".

Your friend is an idiot - but don't judge her too harshly. Pits (and often times, dogs who are not pits are reported to be pits) are in the news headlines every week. Some people cannot get past the bad publicity and see that pit bull terriers are some of the BEST dogs out there.

My house will never be without a pit bull. Ever.

[TsPoet]

On a different vein, pits are evil by genetics.

NO they are NOT. American Staffordshire Bull Terriers are "happy, outgoing, stable, and confident dog"
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanstaffordshire.htm

They, like almost any other dog breed can be trained to be aggressive. They are strong dogs, so that can be a very bad thing. One of the two counties around here requires that "pit bulls" get CGC certifications, so our CGC classes are generally 50% pit bulls. Of all of the classes I've assisted (I don't have teaching cert, so I assist), I have never run across a pit that was aggressive. Even Baby, the 1 year old Pit that had been owned by a man training her to fight, a man who'd tried to crop her ears using garden shears and no anesthesia, was a sweetheart. The man was pleased with her potential to fight, but didn't like how her ears turned out, so he dumped her at out local rescue group.
We always have 1 dog that we know isn't going to pass - those dogs are almost always dachshund, small terrier mixes, or poodles. My pug-x hasn't passed, and never will, I can't take the chance on the evaluator getting close enough to him. I think every pit we've ever had has passed (but I might be mistaken).

[sarahspins]

Honestly.. a BC mix could be a lot for a new dog owner to handle... I wouldn't blame her for taking the dog back, regardless of what the vet told her.

[Biciclista]

ok, I wasn't going to get into this.
I have cats. Sometimes cats will unexpectedly "misbehave". they might bite or scratch you. If you're really really unlucky, that cat scratch or bite might get infected, but probably it will heal quickly.

Then there are dogs. I have been attacked by dogs twice in my life. Once, by a spaniel. I was 5, it was my fault. i pestered the animal and it bit me - small puncture wound..
Second time, I was working in my yard back beyond the fence line. My neighbor's dog thought I was infringing on the property line. This large mongrel dog bit me and bit hard - left me with a bruise as big as a melon. Then he let go and ran off.

Thank god he wasn't a pit bull.

Every time a pit bull attack makes the newspaper, the owners say the same thing "He's never done this before... he's such a sweet dog"

And I believe them. They are apparently sweet, loving dogs. But just like my cats, they don't always act the way you expect them to. Humans don't always pick up on the signals that our pets give when we are crossing a line... even appearing to be like prey. (Sometimes when I wiggle a toe under the blanket, my cats will attack it... Sometimes large dogs will attack people without provocation... that's prey instinct. If it's a pitbull, at this point, thanks to their genetics, you might end up dead or torn up.. If it's a pomeranian, you might get the ankle of your pants torn.

Elephants are sweet loving animals too, but that doesn't make them good pets. Please control your dogs. thank you.

[OakLeaf]

My pit mix was animal-aggressive. We did our best to socialize her, taking her to obedience classes and walks around the neighborhood. Didn't help. She was very maternal and got on fine with puppies, and with our other dogs whom she met as pups. I think with more work she could have been better socialized, but we did what we could as two working people. I could add that she spent her first six months with less responsible owners, but I'm 100% positive they never trained her to be aggressive.

That said, she was the most gentle and sweet animal you could imagine, around humans of any age. Loved babies, children and adults, never so much as growled at a human.

A couple of times she did get into fights - either because she escaped, before we learned what an escape artist she was - or because she was approached by an unleashed dog that wouldn't back down from her growling. The best way to break up a fight, we learned, was to simply put your hand in her mouth and pull her off the other animal. We might (and did) get bitten by the other dog, but never by the pit mix. Human flesh = no bite, simple as that.

I've read that both traits - animal aggressivity and an extreme aversion to hurting humans - were bred into pits. From my limited experience, I think that's credible.

[tulip]

Dogmama, maybe your friend should volunteer at a shelter instead of taking on a dog when she's not ready to.

[badger]

Having volunteered at the spca hospital now for 10 years, I see plenty of loser owners who should never be allowed to have pets.

Just last week, a German Shepherd was picked up as a "stray". The owner was contacted through a tattoo and she said "oh, just keep him for now, I'm camping".

As for pit bulls, my heart breaks for that breed. I can't tell you how many idiots I see out there who gets them as some sort of "threat accessory". Crop their ears and not train them properly and you get one frightening looking thing.

I've come across so many pit/pit crosses that are such sweethearts it really makes me angry that people just lump them all under a bad label. Even a co-worker said to me that if I got a pit bull I'm not welcome at her house :( She's not the only one who's expressed the same sentiments when I told them I might get a pit bull.

There are plenty of people out there who shouldn't be animal guardians. Like others have said, it's probably better for Joey to have been returned to have another chance at a proper home.

[Tuckervill]

no comment on the fact that border collies and their mixes are super high energy, and that possible the poor thing was barking and pulling because it wasn't getting any exercise, ( or enough, as the case may be for that breed?)
??:confused:

That's what I was thinking!!

Karen

[Trek420]

I do think Joey is better off and I'm sure he'll be adopted because he's very sweet, black & white with a very delicate bone structure.

Folks the shelters and our wonderful foster pet parents are working double duty right now. People lose their home and leave the dog, get a pink slip and abandon the cat ... the shelters are full. :(

This is why I feel so badly about Joey going back to the pokey. When I was picking up Mae I watched a couple return a beautiful GSD because he had bitten the Mrs. The volunteers tried to explain the options, what might have happened did everything they could to try to convince the couple to get help and a class.

It made an impression on me.

If you want a pet please consider adopting a shelter or rescue pet. If I had more time (about to start taking a class as well as working full time) I'd be volunteering to walk dogs.

[lph]

If it's a pomeranian, you might get the ankle of your pants torn.

Oooh. Don't get me started on pomeranians :mad:

There's a pom pup in my neighbourhood that gets away with murder because its small and cute and "harmless". I feel like booting it across the fence when it starts yapping at me, because the owner does NOTHING.

I know, I know, it's the owners fault, not the dogs, but man, that's annoying. Small dogs need just as much disciplining as big dogs!

[Selkie]

ok, I wasn't going to get into this.
I have cats. Sometimes cats will unexpectedly "misbehave". they might bite or scratch you. If you're really really unlucky, that cat scratch or bite might get infected, but probably it will heal quickly.

Then there are dogs. I have been attacked by dogs twice in my life. . Please control your dogs. thank you.

I wasn't going to get into this but the anti-dog bias is too much.

Umm, I've been bitten by dogs and cats. First and foremost, cat bites are puncture wounds and USUALLY get infected. The cat that bit me was my sister's cat. The thing attached itself to my hand (the first time it bit me) and I had to whack it against the wall to get it off of me. Ended up in the ER and on antibiotics. The same cat bit me another time, same hand---ER and antibiotics again. Both occasions, my hand swelled up and was painful immediately after being bitten. The reason both times? The cat was pissed off that there was another cat in the house. I did nothing to provoke it.

A neighborhood dog attacked my dog and the attacking dog bit me twice on my leg. The dog had aggression issues and his owner did not have him under control. I probably provoked him by kicking him to get him off of my dog, but rather me injured than my pup. Again, ER and antibiotics. The bites did not get hot or as painful as the cat bites, perhaps because of the location of the bites (calf vs. hand).

So you see, cats and dogs can both bite and hurt humans. Even cats that are "pets."

And no, I am not anti-cat. Before my husband's allergies precluded cat ownership, I had several cats whom I loved.

[Owlie]

Oooh. Don't get me started on pomeranians :mad:

There's a pom pup in my neighbourhood that gets away with murder because its small and cute and "harmless". I feel like booting it across the fence when it starts yapping at me, because the owner does NOTHING.

I know, I know, it's the owners fault, not the dogs, but man, that's annoying. Small dogs need just as much disciplining as big dogs!

Cops in a nearby town back home shot a Chihuahua/JRT mix (well, no one seems to know what it was). It had bitten a jogger, and it bit the officer 17 times on one hand and 9 on the other. The owner didn't have the a license for it, nor was it up to date on its shots...

[WindingRoad]

First and foremost, I love animals... all of them. There are some that do get a bad rep and Pitbulls are definitely that breed. I can't say it is completely without some justification. There are a lot of people who have been attacked by Pitbulls. Unfortunately all intentions and stupid owners set aside, the fact remains that these are the attack dog stories we read about in the paper most often. I have met some very sweet natured Pitbulls but I am distrustful of them because of the way they can turn on people at times. I'm not saying they all do I'm just saying it can and has happened. I'm sure the fact that my father was recently attacked by one while riding his bike hasn't spurred my confidence in them either. But I know they are dogs and I love dogs. I guess to me it takes a very special person to be able to own a Pitbull responsibly.

It may sound like I am against Pitbulls, I'm really not, if fact I will consider adopting one when I have a more stable living arrangement. I think it would be beneficial to have a good example of a pitbull for me and especially my father to see and love. :)

[OakLeaf]

But if you look beyond the media hype and see what breeds are actually biting, Pits do not stand out.

When I was a kid, it was GSD's. "Oh, they're vicious, never approach a GSD." Now I'm hearing that they're so gentle they're not the best breed for police work. :rolleyes: After 20 years I'm just starting to get over my fear of Weimaraners. One walked over to me, sniffed my leg like it was going to be friendly, didn't growl, didn't display any aggressive signals, and just took a bite. It barely broke the skin, but bit hard enough to leave a hematoma deep in the muscle that gave me pain for months afterward.

Granted a Pit can do more damage in a shorter time than a Pom, but there are a lot of larger breeds that bite as often or more often.

[Dogmama]

There are a couple of pit bull adolescents in our dog park. They love to grab the plastic "chucker" I use to throw tennis balls. It can be unnerving because they are VERY STRONG and they DO NOT LET UP.

Unless I'm dealing with a reputable breeder of American Staff. Terriers that can show me an AKC lineage, I would not own a dog of that ilk. If I'm dealing with a backyard breeder, I don't know what's in the woodpile in terms of temperament. These dogs are STRONG, both in jaw strength and in body. I think I'm a pretty good judge of dog character (obviously I need work in the human component - especially friends who wants dogs...grrrr...) but frankly, I don't want to be constantly vigilant around my dog. I had one German Shepherd who was dog aggressive - never again (it was my own stupid fault though for not socializing a puppy that desperately needed it.)

[Aggie_Ama]

NO they are NOT. American Staffordshire Bull Terriers are "happy, outgoing, stable, and confident dog"
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanstaffordshire.htm


:eek:I meant NOT evil. I am so sorry, I agree with you but I didn't proof read my post. I do not think dogs are born mean, made mean maybe but I don't agree they are going to kill someone because it seemed like something good to do that day.

I will give you that they are strong dogs and can hurt you a lot more if they do bite. I think I read once the most per-capita bites are from Cocker Spaniels.

My crazy cat bites me daily, my little Schnauzer has only snapped at me once when I hurt her during a horrible dematting attempt.

[MM_QFC!]

+1 on all of the comments re: responsible and humane dog ownership.

Also, as a bike rider, nothing can get the adrenaline going like a dog on the loose, bounding toward me! If there is a leash law, people, it means that also includes you! I can't tell you how many times, I'm riding along and see people walking the trail with their (sometimes great big) dog on the loose. I don't much care if their dog is friendly, as it should be on a leash, so it's a moot point, right? Why should any nearby riders or walkers have to be concerned about an unleashed dog?
I was enjoying a ride on a local trail recently, especially a lovely downgrade, when I spotted 2 dogs up ahead - no humans in sight and both were wandering w/o any leashes. I slowed as I was taking in the whole scene and deciding whether to continue or turn around. There were no other riders in sight, from either direction either. Hmmmm, I stopped and noticed that both dogs were looking in my direction; since, I'm just getting back to riding and recovering from injuries, I have neither the strength nor the speed that I could count on previously, so I decided to turn around and get away from a situation that presented too many threatening possibilities to me.
I am guessing that the owner of the dogs lived adjacent to the trail and it was their habit to let their dogs wander near their home; it all sounds so easy, pleasant and carefree, doesn't it? NOT! :mad: It's not for me to have to determine if a loose and unattended dog is friendly and not a threat; everyone has the same rules and this is so unnecessary.

Please note: this isn't anti-dog bias; it's more a rant against people who do not care for, nor keep their dogs under control as our communal laws require. I agree with Mimi on this issue. Leash laws aren't just for some dogs; they're meant for all to avoid unnecessary incidents and unsafe situations.
P.S. I don't have a dog living with me, as my schedule doesn't support the caretaking that I feel is necessary to have a pet. However, I am crazy about my 'granddog' and have her visit often. She's a mini-breed, so she can get nervous about lots of people around or big dogs looming over her too. For that reason, I don't usually take her to the off-leash parks, as I've had the experience of her cowering when dogs bound over to her and are too big, even if playful. She's always on a leash when we go out and I've had a couple of scares when we've been on a trail in a nearby county park (leash and scoop laws in effect) and had encounters with loose dogs who were nowhere near their jogging owners - whew!

[smilingcat]

Smilingcat, I disagree with you.
I have a perfect forever pet sitting on my lap right now.

LOL... should have realized. Some do have a prefect forever pet.

[andtckrtoo]

When she took Joey back, the poor pup freaked out (no kidding!!) and it supposedly took three people to hold this dog down (25 pounds) to give him a sedative.

Has anyone checked to see if Joey is still considered adoptable? Man, I'm upset because most Humane Societies are over burdened and if a dog freaked out like this he would be put down as not-adoptable. Poor guy.

[PamNY]

+
Please note: this isn't anti-dog bias; it's more a rant against people who do not care for, nor keep their dogs under control as our communal laws require. I agree with Mimi on this issue. Leash laws aren't just for some dogs; they're meant for all to avoid unnecessary incidents and unsafe situations.!

What issue? Did I miss something? No one in this thread has advocated allowing dogs to run loose. I doubt if you are accomplishing much by posting about it here.

[Biciclista]

LOL Anti dog bias? give me a break! No, you missed my point. My point, which i thought was strengthened by the pomeranian anecdote, was that ALL LIVING ANIMALS can be unpredictable, no matter HOW SWEET they are.
and the bigger the animal the more damage they can inflict. Particularly when they have been bred for JAW STRENGTH and not letting go.
I haven't ever heard of a house cat or a Pomeranian ripping someone's ears off.

I wasn't going to get into this but the anti-dog bias is too much.

Umm, I've been bitten by dogs and cats. First and foremost, cat bites are puncture wounds and USUALLY get infected. The cat that bit me was my sister's cat. The thing attached itself to my hand (the first time it bit me) and I had to whack it against the wall to get it off of me. Ended up in the ER and on antibiotics. The same cat bit me another time, same hand---ER and antibiotics again. Both occasions, my hand swelled up and was painful immediately after being bitten. The reason both times? The cat was pissed off that there was another cat in the house. I did nothing to provoke it.

A neighborhood dog attacked my dog and the attacking dog bit me twice on my leg. The dog had aggression issues and his owner did not have him under control. I probably provoked him by kicking him to get him off of my dog, but rather me injured than my pup. Again, ER and antibiotics. The bites did not get hot or as painful as the cat bites, perhaps because of the location of the bites (calf vs. hand).

So you see, cats and dogs can both bite and hurt humans. Even cats that are "pets."

And no, I am not anti-cat. Before my husband's allergies precluded cat ownership, I had several cats whom I loved.

[tulip]

I have yet to meet a sweet Pomeranian.

[mudmucker]

LOL Anti dog bias? give me a break! No, you missed my point. My point, which i thought was strengthened by the pomeranian anecdote, was that ALL LIVING ANIMALS can be unpredictable, no matter HOW SWEET they are.
and the bigger the animal the more damage they can inflict. Particularly when they have been bred for JAW STRENGTH and not letting go.
I haven't ever heard of a house cat or a Pomeranian ripping someone's ears off.

Headdesk.

Here we go again. Why do you perpetuate with such overt hostility?

[Trek420]

the bigger the animal the more damage they can inflict. Particularly when they have been bred for JAW STRENGTH and not letting go.
I haven't ever heard of a house cat or a Pomeranian ripping someone's ears off.

Locking jaws is a major myth. Pits are determined, yes. "I've got the bone, now I'm keeping the bone" That trait is why they make excellent search and rescue dogs; they are strong, agile, determined and very "pro human" :)

www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm

The problem with pits often is owners who want to be seen as the biggest baddest person on the block. :mad: Properly trained and socialized they are great dogs.

This just proves mutts rule! You get the best traits of all their pedigree. :rolleyes:

[MM_QFC!]

What issue? Did I miss something? No one in this thread has advocated allowing dogs to run loose. I doubt if you are accomplishing much by posting about it here.

- my response was consistent with this thread topic:Ranting about stupid dog ownership
- was agreeing that the issue is with the owner of the animal as well as adding my own voice in agreement with Mimi's request that people control their dogs.
- there was a response to Mimi's post that somehow morphed into a charge of anti-dog bias - whew! It seems to be something that happens here occasionally, when we're all contributing to an online discussion about stupid dog ownership...go figure!
- Is there disagreement with the opinion I expressed that I should be able to ride without encountering unattended, unknown dogs, who may/may not be friendly, territorial, attacking or otherwise?
- I'm still firm on the same: dog owners should take care of and keep control of their pets.
Peace!
Mary

[sundial]

I have yet to meet a sweet Pomeranian.

Lol! I once transported a senior citizen pom named Gizmo. He was the ONLY sweet natured pom that I've encountered. :)

[HappyTexasMom]

Lol! I once transported a senior citizen pom named Gizmo. He was the ONLY sweet natured pom that I've encountered. :)

Awww...one of our dogs is named Gizmo. He's some sort of Corgi/Chihuahua mix. Really sweet dog...we found him as a stray and I didn't want any more dogs (trying to keep it down to 2), but the kids fell in love with him.

[Biciclista]

PansyPalmetto (of BikeJournal Fame) has a sweet pomeranian.

[PamNY]

- my response was consistent with this thread topic:Ranting about stupid dog ownership
- was agreeing that the issue is with the owner of the animal as well as adding my own voice in agreement with Mimi's request that people control their dogs.
- there was a response to Mimi's post that somehow morphed into a charge of anti-dog bias - whew! It seems to be something that happens here occasionally, when we're all contributing to an online discussion about stupid dog ownership...go figure!
- Is there disagreement with the opinion I expressed that I should be able to ride without encountering unattended, unknown dogs, who may/may not be friendly, territorial, attacking or otherwise?
- I'm still firm on the same: dog owners should take care of and keep control of their pets.
Peace!
Mary

Chances are everyone posting in this thread is, or intends to be, a responsible dog owner. Several of them are involved in rescue and could tell "bad human" stories that would make everyone turn pale and faint.

So it's really not necessary, and really not conducive to productive discussion, to presume that people reading the thread are idiots in desperate need of advice.

Making an imperative statement (which technically Mimi did, not you) tends to turn the discussion in an argumentative direction. The polite thing to do is assume that the bad guys are "them", and the good guys are "us." Trust me -- it works. If "them" are reading, they will still get the point.

ETA: Just ran across a perfect case in point. I have a bulldog, and I moderate a bulldog internet group. So you bet I'm going to post about the bulldog I saw tonight tied up outside a store. No dog should be left unsupervised, especially not in Manhattan and especially not a bulldog (because they are well-known to be expensive). Partly I'll post to let off steam (this kind of thing makes me so mad I could spit) and partly in the hope that someone, somewhere might be educated (it's a huge group).

However, I wouldn't dream of posting in a lecturing fashion, e.g., "Don't leave your dog tied up outside a store." I shall write with the assumption that of course none of US would do such a thing (most of the people who post probably wouldn't; the lurkers I have no idea). We'll have a productive discussion (I have great anecdotes about the lengths I go to to avoid leaving my dog alone in a car) and possibly do some good.

[Tuckervill]

However, I wouldn't dream of posting in a lecturing fashion, e.g.,

Oh. hm:


I doubt if you are accomplishing much by posting about it here.

Karen

[PamNY]

Oh. hm:
Karen

I wouldn't dream of posting in a lecturing fashion in the dog group because I want it to be a place where people new to dogs can learn.

This thread is an entirely different matter. The internet is full of people taking a bold stand against evil and in favor of good. I love annoying them.

[lph]

Just for the record, cos I doubt that anyone cares :D, I really like dogs. I prefer cats, but I still like dogs and have had two. But when a dog behaves really annoyingly I'm just not a patient enough person to not get annoyed at the dog, even though I know it's the owner who should take the rap. So I probably will continue to post about the Pom that I want to boot across the fence, and anger some of you for being childish, but still assume that most of you realize I wouldn't touch the dog IRL. A sweet-tempered dog is welcome at my door at any time, it doesn't even have to be under full control as long as it's friendly.

Peace, all.

[teigyr]

This thread definitely took a turn.

I think anyone who takes the responsibility for a life (whether it be human or animal) has a responsibility to make the right choice when they decide to do it. I've seen pets (both cats and dogs) taken to the shelter due to convenience and lack thereof.

When you first adopt an animal, there is adjustment. NONE of our cats are perfect (though they'd probably like you to believe it) and all went through a lot of time before they learned the rules.

I really feel sorry for offleash/poorly trained dogs because no matter what the breed, it isn't their fault. There are some less than stellar people who seek out certain breeds just for the status factor. Yeah, I get scared when I am riding or running and there is an offleash dog but to be honest, the most nipping ones have been the smaller dogs. I've been known to yell at the owners, especially if the dog is circling me and looks menacing.

I guess I put a lot of thought into life decisions and a pet is one of those. We can't own a dog due to time constraints and as much as I'd love to, I realize it wouldn't be fair. I have little patience or tolerance for people who take these things lightly and if I could have them put down instead of the dog, I'd probably be good with that.

And Mimi's right re the nature of animals and size. We have a 25 lb cat who really IS a nice guy but if he takes a swipe at us (or jumps up on the bed using his claws), it is a lot more damaging than one of the 9 lb cats. It just is...it's not that he is bad but he has the capacity to hurt us even if he doesn't intend it. He also knows his size and I'm sure most animals do. Lesson learned...always cover your feet at night :)

[tulip]

A 25-lb cat?? Picture, please!

[Dogmama]

But if you look beyond the media hype and see what breeds are actually biting, Pits do not stand out.

When I was a kid, it was GSD's. "Oh, they're vicious, never approach a GSD." Now I'm hearing that they're so gentle they're not the best breed for police work. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, pit bulls and rottweilers are the dogs that inflict the most damage. It's difficult to find a reliable source citing which breed actually bites more. I suspect that we'd find they are mixed breeds. And, as we know, people often mistake one breed for another - like a border collie mix for a pit bull. :mad::mad::mad:

GSD's are being replaced by the Malinois because American GSD's have health problems. Many of the GSD's used by police are imported from the Czech border. The Malinois have not been tainted (yet) by irresponsible breeders. Unfortunately, many GSD's I see these days are difficult to handle because people won't take the time to train. This is a breed that needs guidance - early and often.

As an aside -- I don't know one cop who likes the Malinois. They call them "mayonnaise dogs" because they are hard to warm up to.

[MM_QFC!]

This thread definitely took a turn.

I think anyone who takes the responsibility for a life (whether it be human or animal) has a responsibility to make the right choice when they decide to do it. I've seen pets (both cats and dogs) taken to the shelter due to convenience and lack thereof.

When you first adopt an animal, there is adjustment. NONE of our cats are perfect (though they'd probably like you to believe it) and all went through a lot of time before they learned the rules.

I really feel sorry for offleash/poorly trained dogs because no matter what the breed, it isn't their fault. There are some less than stellar people who seek out certain breeds just for the status factor. Yeah, I get scared when I am riding or running and there is an offleash dog but to be honest, the most nipping ones have been the smaller dogs. I've been known to yell at the owners, especially if the dog is circling me and looks menacing.

I guess I put a lot of thought into life decisions and a pet is one of those. We can't own a dog due to time constraints and as much as I'd love to, I realize it wouldn't be fair. I have little patience or tolerance for people who take these things lightly and if I could have them put down instead of the dog, I'd probably be good with that.

And Mimi's right re the nature of animals and size. We have a 25 lb cat who really IS a nice guy but if he takes a swipe at us (or jumps up on the bed using his claws), it is a lot more damaging than one of the 9 lb cats. It just is...it's not that he is bad but he has the capacity to hurt us even if he doesn't intend it. He also knows his size and I'm sure most animals do. Lesson learned...always cover your feet at night :)


lol...I forgot about that 25lb kitty of yours, Teigyr!

Yes, like you, I was chiming in on the rant, in agreement against irresponsible pet owners...and not lecturing anyone here - sheesh, I've been an appreciative member of the TE forum for years and trust that most others here read my remarks as intended: speaking generically to those who let their dogs run loose...hmmm, maybe it's time I checked into that 'ignore' button for those types who state their enjoyment for annoying others...;)

[7rider]

I love bunnies. :p

[GLC1968]

A 25-lb cat?? Picture, please!

What she said!

[PamNY]

As an aside -- I don't know one cop who likes the Malinois. They call them "mayonnaise dogs" because they are hard to warm up to.

Interesting -- I saw an explosive-sniffing demo with a Malinois and the guy raved about his dog (but it was a public presentation, so of course he did). I do notice the police here still have GSDs, but had heard they are going out of favor as you said

I can't determine any preferred breed among the dogs that sniff for explosives. They are handled by private contractors, not police. There's such a variety of dogs, and I've wanted to ask the handlers, but usually have my dog with me when I see them, so I can't.

[teigyr]

It's difficult to show his size unless you realize that what he's standing on is about 2.5' long. He's a good boy but he knows his size (ie when he wants food in the morning he knows that sitting on my chest and staring at my face will usually get me up) and he's been known to accidentally hurt us :)

[Selkie]

Sorry for stirring up a poop storm. I have a very low tolerance for self-rightgeousness, and I felt compelled to 1) correct some facts and 2) add some balance. The statements seemed to be very much anti-dog and pro-cat. That was my perception, and I stand by what I wrote.

The cat that bit me did latch on to my hand, which is why it took my slamming her against a wall to get her to "release" -- maybe she was part shark? ;) I still have a scar from that encounter and it happened more than 30 years ago. The cat, by the way, was petite. In this instance, size had nothing to do with it.

I agree that dog owners should both train their dogs and keep them under control. I also think that cat owners should show the same courtesy. Believe it or not, I've had more CATS run out in front of me when I'm out riding my bike (there is a strictly enforced leash law where I live---applies to dogs). Why is it ok for cats to roam free? By the way, that last sentence was tongue in cheek so please don't attack. ;) I do appreciate them keeping the rodent population under control, so long as they don't use my garden as a bathroom.

[tulip]

I have lots of scars from where my (former) parrot bit me over the years. Ouch.

[Irulan]

Why is it ok for cats to roam free? By the way, that last sentence was tongue in cheek so please don't attack.
Why should that be tongue in cheek? Don't want to make the kitty owners mad? I detest the neighborhood cats that run free in my neighborhood. They are unlicensed, untagged, they go after the birds that nest in my yard, they use my garden beds as a toilet...

[PamNY]

I've always had mixed feelings about outside cats. As a cat owner, I let mine run free when I was very young, but got more conservative as I got older. I have often enjoyed visits from neighbor cats

I can see why people think cats need to go outside, but my indoor cats seemed quite happy. One of them ran out during a snowstorm, made a fast U-turn, and never went anywhere near the door after that.

[Cataboo]

Why should that be tongue in cheek? Don't want to make the kitty owners mad? I detest the neighborhood cats that run free in my neighborhood. They are unlicensed, untagged, they go after the birds that nest in my yard, they use my garden beds as a toilet...

I think part of the decline of american birds is the well fed house cats that can afford to hunt for sport, as opposed to just what they need to eat... So pit a human fed cat against birds that have to struggle for their own food (unless someone's feeding them close by as well.)

I'm not entirely sure why with the skyrocketing divorce rates wehre people trade in their spouses on a whim, you guys find it odd that people abandon theirpets. Husband/wives, kids, pets can all be disposable.

I think the lady in the original post who took the dog back to the human society did the right thing - if she wasn't prepared to take care of that dog or fully committed to it, then she should have brought him back as soon as possible. Ideally, she wouldn't have adopted him in the first place - but if you've never had a high energy dog before, you may not realize how much time and work they can be. I'd love to have a dog, but I'm fully aware that I don't have time for a dog and it would be neglected terribly - so I don't get one.

The rest of this thread - I'm not entirely sure why everyone's so touchy here lately, lots of threads seem to devolve down these routes.

[Biciclista]

the major part of the decline of bird species is habitat destruction.
blame humans. cats do not demolish forests and put in apartment complexes nor do they build sky scrapers that are so immense and reflective that birds fly into them by the thousands nor do cats build automobiles which move so fast that they kill millions of birds every year and the drivers don't even notice them.

and this is very seriously off the subject ridiculously so.

[GLC1968]

teigyr - wow, that is one HUGE cat! I'm glad to see that he's just big, too...not a fatso. I love that he knows that sitting on you is punishment enough to wake you up!

I was friends with a guy in college who intentionally over-fed his cat because he liked fat cats. His cat was about 25 lbs too...but super fat. It just pissed me off.

Of course, this same guy shelled out the dough for an Anatolian Shephard (at 165 lbs) and a Ford Expedition. Had to have the biggest of everything. Wonder what he was compensating for? :rolleyes:

[Cataboo]

blame humans.

Humans have cats.

I do blame humans.

[Biciclista]

teigyr - wow, that is one HUGE cat! I'm glad to see that he's just big, too...not a fatso. I love that he knows that sitting on you is punishment enough to wake you up!

I was friends with a guy in college who intentionally over-fed his cat because he liked fat cats. His cat was about 25 lbs too...but super fat. It just pissed me off.

Of course, this same guy shelled out the dough for an Anatolian Shephard (at 165 lbs) and a Ford Expedition. Had to have the biggest of everything. Wonder what he was compensating for? :rolleyes:

I've known people that overfed their pets for that reason too. Incredible.

You can see Teigyr's cat is huge because his large head looks SMALL on his body!

[Veronica]

I think part of the decline of american birds is the well fed house cats that can afford to hunt for sport, as opposed to just what they need to eat... So pit a human fed cat against birds that have to struggle for their own food (unless someone's feeding them close by as well.)



I feed several feral cats in my backyard. They all get one trip to the vet for neutering and then they are free to hang out. I've watched them lay about on my deck while birds will come down and eat their cat food. They watch the birds intently, but I've yet to see them catch one.

Veronica

[Cataboo]

For anyone who wants to be off topic about cats & birds:

http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf
http://wildlife-conservation.suite101.com/article.cfm/threats_to_songbirds
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Pets/PetCare/Cats/CatsAreNotGreen.htm

Of course, read with however many grains of salt since some of those sites have anti-roaming outdoor cat agendas.

[Cataboo]

I feed several feral cats in my backyard. They all get one trip to the vet for neutering and then they are free to hang out. I've watched them lay about on my deck while birds will come down and eat their cat food. They watch the birds intently, but I've yet to see them catch one.

Veronica

You have well behaved feral cats.

My Mom's garden has several ponds and lots of bushes/plants - and all the neighborhood cats like to hang out in her yard - she doesn't have a cat, doesn't feed them, but has 4-6 of the neighbor's cats in her yard. They eat the goldfish in her ponds (she's put them in to eat the mosquitos), and there's often dead birds about.

We did have a siberian husky once that had a dog run in the back yard - the the the end of his leash/run was a magnolia tree with a blue jay nest in it... any time the dog got near the blue jay nest, the blue jay dive bombed the dogs head. The happened 5 or 6 times before the dog got sick of it and opened his mouth and the blue jay was no more.

[Veronica]

You know I'm sure cats do eat birds. Cats are carnivores after all and higher up on the food chain then small birds. That doesn't mean I'm going to kill off all the ferals that happen to be in my neighborhood. They didn't ask to be dumped or be born as ferals.

I'd rather neuter them, feed them, give them fresh water and make their short lives just a tad less miserable. They have a safe place in my backyard, away from the coyotes and the occasional stray dogs. I suppose I could take them to the Humane Society when I catch them and they could euthanize them. But I've gotten rather attached them over the years and they seem to have gotten attached to me as most of them will now allow me to pet them. Even when I don't have the food bucket in hand. And just like my two strictly indoors cats, the outdoor cats have distinct personalities that I find interesting.

Veronica

[Eden]

Your moms goldfish are probably eaten by raccoons, not cats...... I had fish in my back yard for a while too - the raccoons made a huge mess of everything and I had to give up.

I have strictly indoor cats (for their safety and welfare) but I too have had indoor outdoor cats in the past and the best they were ever able to do were tiny mice. I never had a cat who was a successful bird hunter. Do I think no cats can do it - of course not, but I certainly don't think house cats can be pinned with the disappearance of birds..... Chemicals - specifically DDT (think Silent Spring) nearly destroyed bird populations and they are just beginning to make a comeback. I've noticed a huge increase in the numbers and species of birds even just in my neighborhood in the past 10 years. We had only pigeons, house wrens, finches and starlings when I moved here. Since that time I've seen eagles, peregrins, flickers, scrub jays, owls, bush tits, oregon juncos (in the winter) and many more.

In any case the OP was complaining about a stupid *human*, not even a dog or a cat...

[Irulan]

In any case the OP was complaining about a stupid *human*, not even a dog or a cat...


all stupid/obnoxious pet behavior can more or less be traced back to a human

[Biciclista]

all stupid/obnoxious pet behavior can more or less be traced back to a human

lol I'm glad THAT's settled

[sarahspins]

Why is it ok for cats to roam free?

I think there are plenty of us cat owners who don't think it is ;)

IMO, people who let their cats roam, don't really care about them, and probably shouldn't own them.... and unfortunately, many don't for long.

Whenever our cats sneak out, we literally freak out trying to find them and get them back in - there are far too many predators out here for us to be comfortable letting them out at any time. Our kitties are indoor only!

[Irulan]

I think there are plenty of us cat owners who don't think it is ;)

IMO, people who let their cats roam, don't really care about them, and probably shouldn't own them.... and unfortunately, many don't for long.

Whenever our cats sneak out, we literally freak out trying to find them and get them back in - there are far too many predators out here for us to be comfortable letting them out at any time. Our kitties are indoor only!

If more kitty owners thought like you, there would be less people using their legal right to check out cat traps from the pound.

[sarahspins]

If more kitty owners thought like you, there would be less people using their legal right to check out cat traps from the pound.

Yes, but it's still very good that those programs exist.. for a while in areas surrounding me, TNR was illegal :eek: (it's not now, thank goodness!)

[Tuckervill]

I think part of the decline of american birds is the well fed house cats that can afford to hunt for sport, as opposed to just what they need to eat... So pit a human fed cat against birds that have to struggle for their own food (unless someone's feeding them close by as well.)

This seems illogical to me. Cats like to play, of course, but their reason for hunting is to eat. If they're not hungry, they will hunt way way less, don't you think? And you think the birds are in some kind of weakened state because they are doing what they do, and the cats are super-cats because they are fed by humans?

I have two cats in my yard, and rarely ever see them catch birds or find dead birds in the yard. They do, in fact, sometimes kill birds, but not nearly to the extent that they are decimating the local bird population. I scared away about 30 doves off the edge of my pool the other day--it was amazing. All the stray cats in the neighborhood couldn't have taken care of that bird population. (My dog hunts birds every single day, but she never catches them. :) )

I agree with Mimi that it's development and loss of habitat that hurts the birds. Cats are just part of the food chain.

Karen

[Irulan]

This seems illogical to me. Cats like to play, of course, but their reason for hunting is to eat. If they're not hungry, they will hunt way way less, don't you think? And you think the birds are in some kind of weakened state because they are doing what they do, and the cats are super-cats because they are fed by humans?

I have two cats in my yard, and rarely ever see them catch birds or find dead birds in the yard. They do, in fact, sometimes kill birds, but not nearly to the extent that they are decimating the local bird population. I scared away about 30 doves off the edge of my pool the other day--it was amazing. All the stray cats in the neighborhood couldn't have taken care of that bird population. (My dog hunts birds every single day, but she never catches them. :) )

I agree with Mimi that it's development and loss of habitat that hurts the birds. Cats are just part of the food chain.

Karen

I'm not going to take the time to google up links,(you can do that yourself if you want) but the statistics are out there that housecats hunt for the kill, not to eat. When was the last time that you saw a cat actually EAT what it KILLED? They don't, they play with them, then leave them lying around, preferably on the door step.

[MartianDestiny]

I'm not going to take the time to google up links,(you can do that yourself if you want) but the statistics are out there that housecats hunt for the kill, not to eat. When was the last time that you saw a cat actually EAT what it KILLED? They don't, they play with them, then leave them lying around, preferably on the door step.

Honestly, the last time I saw a cat kill something it ate it. But I grew up on a farm and killing was expected of the cats (that was their job, and food from humans was a treat and incentive to stay around, not what they survived on)

I can believe some cats kill for sport. I cannot believe that even if every feral/outdoor cat killed for sport that it would equal the amount of damage to the bird population from other sources (loss of habitat, pesticides, cars, etc). Honestly, it would take quite a bit of scientific evidence to convince me that cats even came close to any one of those numbers.

[Tuckervill]

I'm not going to take the time to google up links,(you can do that yourself if you want) but the statistics are out there that housecats hunt for the kill, not to eat. When was the last time that you saw a cat actually EAT what it KILLED? They don't, they play with them, then leave them lying around, preferably on the door step.

My cats eat the heads of the birds when they kill them. :P

But they don't kill enough to even come CLOSE to decimating the bird population.

There are always way way more birds alive and flittering around than there are dead on the ground or in a cat's stomach.

Karen

[Eden]

I'm not going to take the time to google up links,(you can do that yourself if you want) but the statistics are out there that housecats hunt for the kill, not to eat. When was the last time that you saw a cat actually EAT what it KILLED? They don't, they play with them, then leave them lying around, preferably on the door step.

When I had outdoor cats, like I said they never got anything bigger than tiny field mice and they always ate them. We'd only know they got one if we saw then with it or if we found the little stomachs around. They didn't like that bit, but everything else was eaten.

Cats who bring things to your door think you are stupid and incapable of feeding yourself... they are bringing you prey so that you can eat and/or learn to hunt....

[Cataboo]

Cats often play - and often that wounds birds and cats don't have clean wounds. I'm not going to argue it, studies have been done which show that cats, not being a native part of the local food chain do decimate bird and small mammal populations - you can look at the links I posted which do link to independent studies of what effect cats have on the native wildlife and cats do contribute to the decline in bird populations. Yes, there are a lot of other factors that contribute to the decline in bird populations... But the term I used was part of the decline. Not are solely responsible for.

And the number of people that claim "oh my cat doesn't eat/kill birds" is just silly.

No raccoons in my Mom's yard (least never been seen in the last 30 odd years) - the cats which hang out underneath the bushes right next to the ponds are a slight indication that they're the ones going after the fish - ocassionally a deer will fall in the pond, but it's usually fairly obvious when that's happened and there's fish death from that.

[Eden]

Just because you haven't seen them, doesn't mean that raccoons are not in the yard.... They are everywhere and plenty of them too. I've only seen them once or twice, but their destructive habits I've had plenty of. They love water and they love fish. Cats may enjoy fishies, but they don't generally like water. Unless the pond is extremely tiny and shallow or the fish congregate at the edges waiting to be caught something else is likely doing the fishing. Around here people also have problems with herons visiting their koi ponds.

[MartianDestiny]

... you can look at the links I posted which do link to independent studies of what effect cats have on the native wildlife and cats do contribute to the decline in bird populations...

Ok, I looked at all three links. NONE of them show a scientific study and NONE of them cite their sources. I'm sorry, but I'm a trained scientist and these articles might as well be pulling numbers out of their rear-ends as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not convinced they are independent (I'm inclined to think they are all "quoting" Kress and not giving him credit, but I could be wrong of course.)

The link to Steve Kress' article in the Audubon magazine is the most credible being that he does have a PhD in Environmental Studies (I had to go dig for that info). But, he should know better. There's no mention of how he came to the number of deaths from cats (but he did say how he got to the number of cats in the US and how he got to the number of window/glass deaths...). I'd loose my job and get kicked out of grad school if I tried to pass off something like that as scientific (and honestly he probably wasn't trying to, but he should cite or link to the scientific work as well). The info would never get through a peer reviewed journal like that, but unfortunately he's a scientist so it's automatically credible to the public even when it's not credible. IMO, that's an abuse of the trust put into scientists and it makes me ill. (I'll resend that last statement if he in fact has published a peer reviewed scientific work with his data on this).

In the end I'm not arguing that cats do not contribute at all. And in fact I agree with you that the vast majority of cats should be kept indoors and confined when outdoors.

In fact here's a scientific article that actually agrees with your point, ranking cats as potentially equal to glass strikes in deaths (however, they still don't cite or explain the data behind cat deaths (at least in the intro where it is mentioned)...so I still don't "trust" the information, though I'm more inclined to believe it's plausible):
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biology/faculty/klem/ACO/Wilson-%20feeder%20placement%202004.pdf

[Selkie]

My golden retrievers catch and kill birds. I've caught them in the act. True to their nature, I guess, as goldens are "huntin' dogs!" :D But they don't bite humans....

Ironically, the next door neighbor has a virtual bird sanctuary in their backyard but no shrubs/trees for bird roosting. So they come to our yard (shurbs galore and a huge old oak). This neighbor has an indoor cat--guess all the feeders are for his entertainment. Well, in addition to our dogs taking out these birds, several free-roaming neighborhood pet (not feral) felines kill them.

I may have inadvertently saved a cat this morning when I was riding my bike. My headlight scared off a fox, who was stealthily heading in a cat's direction.

[Aggie_Ama]

My in-laws black lab kills birds, snakes (good doggie they are taking the chicken eggs), possums, squirrels, he is such a hunter we won't bring our 9 lb schnauzer over. Their cat just watches the birds. :rolleyes: We have a bird bath which has become the neighborhood cat napping place but I have yet to see the cats win. I have seen the martens attack the cats though.

[Deborajen]

You know, with all the threads on this forum about pets - showing off our pets, sharing stories, grieving for lost pets - I'm really disappointed and some of the downright hateful remarks on this thread.

As far as stupid/obnoxious pet behavior always being tracked back to a human? My neighbor's Rottweiler snapped at a few of the neighbor kids. The reason? His brain had grown too big for his skull, and he was in awful pain. The neighbors put him to sleep. I'm sure they, or others in a similar position, would love to have their noses rubbed in it.

Although my cats have never been outside to kill a bird, for play or for food, they can kill all the mice in the house that they want - I don't care if it's just for sport.

Back to the OP, Dogmama, try not to be too hard on your friend. It's probably best that she took Joey back soon. It's probably best that she not have a shelter pet at all. Poor Joey is probably scared to death. No wonder he barked at all the dogs at the vet's office - He's been bounced around. Who knows what all he's been through? And the vet's office probably smelled like the shelter and was a nightmare for him. But my heart aches for Joey. I hope he finds someone who can give him the extra love he needs.

And I'm extra sensitive right now. On Saturday, our beloved Siberian Husky, Leia, went over the rainbow bridge. We had to have her put to sleep, and my heart is broken into a million pieces right now. We don't know if she suffered more than she let us know or if it happened suddenly and mercifully.

Lighten up, people.

[OakLeaf]

((((((((Deborajen & family))))))))

I'm so sorry for your loss. Give yourself permission to grieve, knowing that in time the happy memories will outweigh your present pain.

[lucky]

tell him never do this again. if he cant take responsibility of a dog how he care his relations..:(

[salsabike]

You know, with all the threads on this forum about pets - showing off our pets, sharing stories, grieving for lost pets - I'm really disappointed and some of the downright hateful remarks on this thread.

As far as stupid/obnoxious pet behavior always being tracked back to a human? My neighbor's Rottweiler snapped at a few of the neighbor kids. The reason? His brain had grown too big for his skull, and he was in awful pain. The neighbors put him to sleep. I'm sure they, or others in a similar position, would love to have their noses rubbed in it.

Although my cats have never been outside to kill a bird, for play or for food, they can kill all the mice in the house that they want - I don't care if it's just for sport.

Back to the OP, Dogmama, try not to be too hard on your friend. It's probably best that she took Joey back soon. It's probably best that she not have a shelter pet at all. Poor Joey is probably scared to death. No wonder he barked at all the dogs at the vet's office - He's been bounced around. Who knows what all he's been through? And the vet's office probably smelled like the shelter and was a nightmare for him. But my heart aches for Joey. I hope he finds someone who can give him the extra love he needs.

And I'm extra sensitive right now. On Saturday, our beloved Siberian Husky, Leia, went over the rainbow bridge. We had to have her put to sleep, and my heart is broken into a million pieces right now. We don't know if she suffered more than she let us know or if it happened suddenly and mercifully.

Lighten up, people.

Thanks for all of this post, Deborajen. And I'm very sorry about Leia. It's such hard stuff.

[badger]

Firstly, I'm sor sorry to hear about Leia. It's always so so hard to say goodbye.

****

I've sat back and watched the thread morph into something rather nasty, and I'm actually quite sad about it. It always catches me by surprise when I find certain people that I had respect for say rather crude and pointed remarks.

We're so quick to judge other species or certain breeds doing bad things when all we have to do is look at the human race and see all the damage we've done to the planet and all things on it. WE created the pit bull, WE created domesticated cats. WE destroy habitats. WE've made animals and plants extinct.

We shouldn't take one brush and paint one particular breed or species the same colour. Every animal and plant is unique and while there are similarities, they are not all the same.

I don't think there's ever going to be an argument or a line of thought that everyone agrees to. And everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but it just shocks me to see some people who I had respect for make outright comments that really aren't warranted.

[PamNY]

Deborajen, I'm so sorry you lost Leia. It's always hard to lose a family member.

I don't think this thread is so terrible. In my bulldog group the co-moderator calls them "spirited discussions" (even when she's shutting them down) and I think that's a good description.

Whether negative or positive, relationships with animals arouse strong feelings, and that's just reality. I enjoyed reading the discussion about outdoor cats, and I like reading dog breed-specific discussions because I want to know what people think, even if I don't agree with them. As I mentioned upthread, I do think keeping discussions constructive is better because it's more educational, but it's not realistic to expect that all the time.

I have been thinking a lot lately about what humans do to birds. I've been watching a red-tailed hawk nest which started with three babies. The nest is in a park bisected by a busy highway, and the juvenile hawks don't yet fly high enough to be 100% safe crossing the highway. Some of my fellow hawk watchers have been frantically trying to get "slow" signs put up on the highway, and more enforcement of the speed limit. Heartbroken as I am over the loss of the two beautiful youngsters, I think those responses are just an emotional desire to "fix" something that can't be fixed. If red-tails nest in New York City, they are going to face risks, just as they would in the woods.

[Dogmama]

Why should that be tongue in cheek? Don't want to make the kitty owners mad? I detest the neighborhood cats that run free in my neighborhood. They are unlicensed, untagged, they go after the birds that nest in my yard, they use my garden beds as a toilet...

What she said!!!!

Around here, cats eventually turn into coyote food. Very sad to see "lost" posters when you know what happened.

My vet says indoor cats are seen for usual stuff - shots, maybe a UTI. Outdoor cats catch all kinds of stuff.

My cat is STRICTLY indoors. He loves it & doesn't try to go outside. I adopted him from the humane society many years ago & suspect that he's had his share of camping out. He was full of scratches from fighting. Apparently, he wasn't that good :p

[Dogmama]

This dog was not high energy, oddly enough. My friend just changed her mind. She's stupid, inconsiderate and has no heart. Dogs are for life. Another poster said something I loved - dogs are not shoes. You don't bring them home, find out they don't match your furniture & take them back. It's a living being, fer-cryin-out-loud. This dog was picked up as a stray, so there was zero information. I went with her to the humane society initially to evaluate this dog. (I have 25 years of dog training experience, so I know a little bit about behavior.) This dog was a sweetheart. I watched her sit & wag her little tail when other dogs walked by. She was curious but not obnoxious at all. She did not show fear to other people or children. Her leash manners were good.

This dog freaked at being taken back to the humane society. Another poster said that this was a good reason to put it down. Oh really???:mad::mad::mad: Go to any vet's office & watch the freaked out dogs. I close my case.

During the week she had the dog, the dog did not soil her house, chew anything or bark excessively. She did dig, but it's over 100 degrees right now. I had offered obedience lessons, but during that time she had her "conversation" with her vet who told her that this dog was a vicious pit bull, would turn on her and needed to be returned immediately. My "friend" knows nothing about breeds. I told her to google pit bull & look at the picture. She didn't, because she didn't want to "get confused."

OK, enough of this. I'm going to ride my bike. I can tell it's going to be hills at full-tilt-boogie today. I have some emotions to work out.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Some Humane Societies are very strict about requirements for adopting animals.
I had to give THREE references and answer tons of questions, plus they said they might 'check up on me' later. (!) When I adopted my new Suki kitty last month, they said two other people had applied to adopt her before me...but were REJECTED. :eek: I got lucky.
The society tells everyone who adopts that if things don't work out well for any reason they should bring the animal back- that they'd much rather have the animal returned to them than have it live with an inappropriate match for an owner. There will always be people out there who don't take their adopting as seriously as they claim to, and who misrepresent themselves or their situation. It's impossible to know what goes on in these people's minds, but the reasons aren't as important as the animal's longterm wlefare. Best to make sure people know they can bring the animal back no problem- best for the animal. :)

[sfa]

Some Humane Societies are very strict about requirements for adopting animals.
I had to give THREE references and answer tons of questions

We had to do all of that and have a home visit where a volunteer came to our house and checked us out, made sure the place was safe, interviewed us about training and obedience, etc. At the time I thought it was a crazy amount of work to adopt a dog, but I can see why they need to be so careful. Not only does it reassure them that our home is safe but it let the potential adopter know that this is for serious and not something to take on lightly.

I know it takes a lot of volunteer power to carry out that level of inspection, but I think more animal rescue groups are headed in that direction.

Sarah

[GLC1968]

Yes, we went through a lot of inpsection and paperwork with all of our pet adoptions. For my first one, I had to get a signed letter from my landlord that pets were allowed because I was renting (and didn't own the place).

For our last adoption (our dog Charlie), we had to consent to a visit from the shelter because he was the third animal we were adopting in less than a year. They thought something was going on! Little did they know that we were just building up our little herd. ;)

All the shelters are different though. The first one made me sign an agreement to bring the dog back if my situation ever changed and I couldn't keep her anymore (not gonna happen!). The place in NC told us that if we ever brought an animal back, they'd take it, but that we'd have to wait a minimum of a year before we'd be allowed to adopt again.

[Cataboo]

Ok, I looked at all three links. NONE of them show a scientific study and NONE of them cite their sources. I'm sorry, but I'm a trained scientist and these articles might as well be pulling numbers out of their rear-ends as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not convinced they are independent (I'm inclined to think they are all "quoting" Kress and not giving him credit, but I could be wrong of course.)

The link to Steve Kress' article in the Audubon magazine is the most credible being that he does have a PhD in Environmental Studies (I had to go dig for that info). But, he should know better. There's no mention of how he came to the number of deaths from cats (but he did say how he got to the number of cats in the US and how he got to the number of window/glass deaths...). I'd loose my job and get kicked out of grad school if I tried to pass off something like that as scientific (and honestly he probably wasn't trying to, but he should cite or link to the scientific work as well). The info would never get through a peer reviewed journal like that, but unfortunately he's a scientist so it's automatically credible to the public even when it's not credible. IMO, that's an abuse of the trust put into scientists and it makes me ill. (I'll resend that last statement if he in fact has published a peer reviewed scientific work with his data on this).

In the end I'm not arguing that cats do not contribute at all. And in fact I agree with you that the vast majority of cats should be kept indoors and confined when outdoors.

In fact here's a scientific article that actually agrees with your point, ranking cats as potentially equal to glass strikes in deaths (however, they still don't cite or explain the data behind cat deaths (at least in the intro where it is mentioned)...so I still don't "trust" the information, though I'm more inclined to believe it's plausible):
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biology/faculty/klem/ACO/Wilson-%20feeder%20placement%202004.pdf


Since I was loo lazy to look up actual primary references way back when, and I just ran across this article reading the news today:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v400/n6744/abs/400563a0.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/science/29angi.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&em

[crazycanuck]

We've just started searching for a new friend for our lovely doggie & am heartbroken each time i visit a few of the dog refuge websites. I want to bring all of the doggies home but we don't have a big enough house/yard.

I really do wish humans would treat thier animals much better than they do :(. There was one good woman mentioned on one of the sites-she had the heart to give her fluffy friend to a refuge as it was being beaten by her partner :(.

[tulip]

Last week, when I was walking my dog, I noticed a couple of teenage girls walking a pitbull puppy. I didn't take much notice because there are lots of people who walk dogs in my neighborhood.

A few hours later, I heard this sad howling out back in the alley. I thought that my neighbors across the alley had gotten a puppy or something. I went out to take a peek, and that same pitbull puppy was tied up to my back fence. The girls had left her there. I like to think they figured I was a good bet to take care of the dog.

She was mangey and skinny and very hungry. And very sweet and cute. A friend down the street and I got it to a PB rescue org. She'll be adopted in no time, they said, because she's sweet and a puppy.

[sfa]

When we were in NYC last weekend, DD and I saw a ghost bike on the street and I explained to her what it was and why it was there.

This morning she came up to me and told me she wanted to start a "ghost dog collar" program to memorialize dogs who are hit by cars, to remind people to take good care of their pets.

[Norse]

A friend down the street and I got it to a PB rescue org. She'll be adopted in no time, they said, because she's sweet and a puppy.

Good for you tulip! Our humane society doggy rescue is a black lab/border collie mix. We got her when she was 2 and the agency said she had been dropped off in the middle of the night by a family. My thought is that family just wanted cute, adorable puppy and had no clue what to do with a full grown 55 lb. dog. Some people should not be allowed to have pets any more than they should be allowed to have children.

[MartianDestiny]

Since I was loo lazy to look up actual primary references way back when, and I just ran across this article reading the news today:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v400/n6744/abs/400563a0.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/science/29angi.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&em

Those articles state that cats are a problem, which I don't doubt, I still doubt the initial assertion that their damage is greater than all other sources combined.

The NYTimes article is of course not peer reviewed and contains outright falsehoods and ridiculous emotional arguments to boot. At least they link to a real paper; of course the problem with "Letters to Nature" is you really can't accurately describe your research in a mere 2 pages, though the short articles do have some usefulness.

[Biciclista]

Martian destiny, we're back to human hubris again. How dare we blame cats after all the damage we HUMANS do? we've ruined entire migratory patterns because of the light pollution of our cities!
but this is not the thread for this, this was about someone who dumped a dog.

PS Despite what the articles say; my hunting cat DOES kill rats; close to a dozen this year alone.

[bmccasland]

Front page of today's paper is of a police officer cuddling an 8 week old kitten, one of two that was tossed out of the back of a van on the Causeway - a 24 mile long bridge over Lake Pontchartrain. The one kitty survived, and the paper stated has already been adopted. Cute little bugger. They haven't found the other kitty. And they're looking for the van's driver, will file felony criminal charges.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2009/09/post_9.html

[smilingcat]

Martian destiny, we're back to human hubris again. How dare we blame cats after all the damage we HUMANS do? we've ruined entire migratory patterns because of the light pollution of our cities!
but this is not the thread for this, this was about someone who dumped a dog.

PS Despite what the articles say; my hunting cat DOES kill rats; close to a dozen this year alone.

+1 and don't forget about habitat destruction from draining wetlands to turning fields into farm lands... Some so called protected wetlands are so polluted with heavy metal e.g. cadmium, selenium, birds are being pisoned to death and reproduction is severely compromised. Wetlands along the migratory path are destroyed because well, its not used for roosting. So how are birds supposed to go between summer nesting grounds and winter grounds??

Yes, cats left outdoor will kill suprisingly large number of birds. If the birds are endangered, it can be very devastating. Don't blame the cats. They are doing what comes natural to them. If you introduce a ferral specie into an environment, YOU need to make sure it doesn't cause a problem. Be it Python, African Bull frogs, ferral pigs, goats...

I've heard of stories where a developer has brought in a falconer to erradicate a flock of threatened bird species off the land he wanted to develop. Since falcons are considered "wild" the developer used a loophole in wild life protection.

------------------

I work very closely with a cat rescue group.

1. YES. We will screen you very carefully.
2. YES. We will do a home check and occasional suprise visit.
3. YES we do take adoptions very seriously. If you are not serious about FOREVER pet, don't even think about adopting. They are others who are very commited to having a FOREVER pet.

4. YES we get jaded at people. We see large segment of population who see pets as accessory to their lifestyle, another pair of shoe... Adopt out a dog, cat as puppies and kittens and dump it off at shelter 6 month later or worse dump them off at a local park thinking that the animals will do alright. They don't. Many of them starve to death because they can't compete with the true ferrals. And yes, we do work with animal control.

Don't blame the cats, dogs, parrots, hamsters... snakes. Blame the irresponsible owners.
Oh more threatening species are:

lion fish in the carribean (4 escaped from a private collection after hurricane Andrew was it) NOAA report (http://www.oar.noaa.gov/spotlite/archive/2009/articles/lionfish_invasion.html)
Zebra mussels in the great lake region.
Lamprey also in great lake region.
Carp in Mississippi eco system...
Bullfrogs (african native) all across US
Pythons in the Florida everglades.
Ferral pigs, goats around the world.

And don't forget the EARTHWORM in places like Wisconsin, Minn. (When the glacier came down, it scraped the landscape clean and when they receeded, the ground was free of earthworms. They are feral specie. and causing havoc with the local fauna.Minn. Dept of Natural Resource (http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html) PLEASE READ THIS IF NOTHING ELSE!!

If you see a bullfrog. Please kill it humanely. They are extremly destructive with no predators in North America.

[sfa]

Very interesting information, smilingcat--I had no idea that something as friendly as an earthworm could be invasive in Minnesota! Of course it makes sense, but I never would have considered it.

Your information about bullfrogs is wrong, though. They ARE native to the eastern US and are only an invasive species in the western US. Please, please don't kill a bullfrog (humanely or otherwise) in my neck of the woods!

http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/aquatics/bullfrog.shtml

http://www.savethefrogs.com/threats/invasive-species.html

[Biciclista]

Very interesting information, smilingcat--I had no idea that something as friendly as an earthworm could be invasive in Minnesota! Of course it makes sense, but I never would have considered it.

Your information about bullfrogs is wrong, though. They ARE native to the eastern US and are only an invasive species in the western US. Please, please don't kill a bullfrog (humanely or otherwise) in my neck of the woods!

http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/aquatics/bullfrog.shtml

http://www.savethefrogs.com/threats/invasive-species.html

thanks, SFA, I was thinking they were native back east.

[Trek420]

Last week, when I was walking my dog, I noticed a couple of teenage girls walking a pitbull puppy. I didn't take much notice because there are lots of people who walk dogs in my neighborhood.

A few hours later, I heard this sad howling out back in the alley. I thought that my neighbors across the alley had gotten a puppy or something. I went out to take a peek, and that same pitbull puppy was tied up to my back fence. The girls had left her there. I like to think they figured I was a good bet to take care of the dog.

She was mangey and skinny and very hungry. And very sweet and cute. A friend down the street and I got it to a PB rescue org. She'll be adopted in no time, they said, because she's sweet and a puppy.

Good for you! You seem to be right there when a doggie needs rescue. :cool:

[smilingcat]

An acquaintance was talking to a ranger in Yosemite NP. There, my acquaintace was capturing the bullfrogs. As he put it, removing the problem. The ranger had to radio in to make sure my acquaintance was correct. Removing of native species in national park is very illegal.

The acquaintance was cleared to keep on collecting the bullfrogs for curiosity and for removal from the eco-system. What he told me was about the african variety and not the north american variety. Just did a google search and really didn't come up with any.
North American specie is Rana while the African specie is Pyxicephalus.

I think I need to call him and get a more detailed info...

Regardless, whether its Rana or Pyxicephalus bullfrogs, neither belongs in western US (especially here in california).Rana's are native to the east coast.

I do owe an apology to those on the east coast though... :o

The lowly earthworm is a shocker... Who could have imagined. When I first read it it was :eek: I was taught earthworm, good for the soil.

And thank you for keeping me honest.
smilingcat

[andtckrtoo]

This dog was not high energy, oddly enough. My friend just changed her mind. She's stupid, inconsiderate and has no heart. Dogs are for life. Another poster said something I loved - dogs are not shoes. You don't bring them home, find out they don't match your furniture & take them back. It's a living being, fer-cryin-out-loud. This dog was picked up as a stray, so there was zero information. I went with her to the humane society initially to evaluate this dog. (I have 25 years of dog training experience, so I know a little bit about behavior.) This dog was a sweetheart. I watched her sit & wag her little tail when other dogs walked by. She was curious but not obnoxious at all. She did not show fear to other people or children. Her leash manners were good.

This dog freaked at being taken back to the humane society. Another poster said that this was a good reason to put it down. Oh really???:mad::mad::mad: Go to any vet's office & watch the freaked out dogs. I close my case.

During the week she had the dog, the dog did not soil her house, chew anything or bark excessively. She did dig, but it's over 100 degrees right now. I had offered obedience lessons, but during that time she had her "conversation" with her vet who told her that this dog was a vicious pit bull, would turn on her and needed to be returned immediately. My "friend" knows nothing about breeds. I told her to google pit bull & look at the picture. She didn't, because she didn't want to "get confused."

OK, enough of this. I'm going to ride my bike. I can tell it's going to be hills at full-tilt-boogie today. I have some emotions to work out.

I did not say that this was a good reason to put the dog down. I said the Humane Society MIGHT consider this a good reason to put the dog down. Humane Societies in general are so overburdened that returning a dog and having that dog freak out, may be enough to have that organization decide that the dog is not adoptable and have him put down in the effort to save a dog who might be adoptable.

[Biciclista]

I did not say that this was a good reason to put the dog down. I said the Humane Society MIGHT consider this a good reason to put the dog down. Humane Societies in general are so overburdened that returning a dog and having that dog freak out, may be enough to have that organization decide that the dog is not adoptable and have him put down in the effort to save a dog who might be adoptable.

they are closing our county animal shelter! :eek::( They have really dedicated staff there and have over 200 cats there right now.. :confused::(

[Dogmama]

I did not say that this was a good reason to put the dog down. I said the Humane Society MIGHT consider this a good reason to put the dog down. Humane Societies in general are so overburdened that returning a dog and having that dog freak out, may be enough to have that organization decide that the dog is not adoptable and have him put down in the effort to save a dog who might be adoptable.

I would hope that the Humane Society could recognize a dog freaking out in a strange situation vs a biologically problematic dog. Especially because this dog was going back to a situation that was unpleasant. I'm sure the dog recognized the scents, etc. It had only been gone a week.

[Trek420]

I'd believe it that shelter dogs recognize or remember the sights, smells and/or sounds of a shelter. I went to my local shelter to drop off extra/worn sheets, towels, old blankets as I always do whenever I have 'em. My mutt, who loves going anywhere in the car practically cowered in the back seat :( as if she thought she was going back. It's not even the same one she was adopted from.

[smilingcat]

Best not to take your animal to the shelter even for a visit.

Carson shelter in Los Angeles area has a bad reputation. If you walk onto their facility with your dog. They can confiscate your dog. Their assumption is that you took your dog there for drop off. Never mind about your dog helping you out with finding his new bud.

And if the animal is dropped off by the owner, the animal doesn't even get a 72 hour reprieve. They are put down that DAY. I hope I'm wrong but I've heard it from several people who deal quite a bit with them. And their policy keeps changing ever so frequently so no one really seems to know.

And yes cats and dogs have very good memory of good and bad. We've had rescue dogs returned to us and they knew my house was their home. :( Their new owners didn't want them after 6 month or so in one case and in another case the new owner, against our instruction not to over feed, allowed the poor golden to become about 120 pounds. She couldn't play any more or go for a walk so she was returned.

And two of our kittens we recovered, when they came back to my house, you could see in their body language, sigh of relief. Then they went and greeted all the other cats in the house.

[Trek420]

Best not to take your animal to the shelter even for a visit.

Mae wasn't in the shelter, she stayed outside in the car while I ran in. She loves going anywhere with me in the car. Sometimes she jumps in the front seat when I leave. She knows dogs can't drive, she's supposed to be in the back seat but normally just lounges on the back seat on her blanket. :p

This time when I came back out she was cowered on the floor of the back seat. :(

Then I reflected there are things we don't hear or smell but dogs can. Even though I thought she was yards away from the building she may have known.

Now this is one errand I don't take her with me on. :o

[crazycanuck]

At the the doggie refuge(www.dogshome.org.au) we adopted Yukon from, they request you to bring in your present doggie to check compatibility with the potential new friend.

WHen we visit Shenton Park next weekend, we'll make it a doggie beach day as well :)

[OakLeaf]

I don't doubt that their memories are good, but they'd probably react the same way to an unfamiliar shelter just from smelling the pheromones of the animals inside. :(

[badger]

I thought it apt to put my thoughts in this thread as it already addresses stupid dog ownership.

Between yesterday and today, I saw two people who mistreat their dogs. I was sickened by what I saw yesterday. A woman with an energetic pit bull was at a crosswalk. He was obviously ball-obsessed and was trying to get at the ball in her hand. It dropped out of her hand and he reached for it just as a truck went by.

She violently yanked his leash, smacked him in the hind end, forced him to sit down with her hand and when that didn't produce the result she wanted (the dog was visibly cowering at this point), she kicked him down!

I was in my car watching all this and I had to hold everything within me from getting out and kicking her.

Granted pit bulls sometimes need a firm hand, but this was outright abuse and it sickened me.

Then today, just as I was walking my cat through the courtyard of my building, I hear a "wait. wait. WAIT!". A man with a small dog (maltese-ish) yanked on the leash and waved his fist at the dog. Again, this dog was cowering.

Why do these morons own dogs? They'll wonder why their dog is not behaving properly so they abuse them. They get worse and the morons surrender them to shelters because, in their minds, there's something wrong with the dog. Grr!!:mad: